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View Full Version : Stopping the slide/bolt from going back in special circumstances: Good/bad/ugly?


Scoundrel
02-23-2012, 08:21 PM
I do not yet have a Ruger 10/22, so I can't test this. I figured I should ask the question first anyway.

I've seen YouTube videos indicating that if you hold the slide firmly in place with your off hand while you fire a semi-automatic pistol, it does not hurt you or damage the gun. The slide simply stays put, and then you can manually rack it.

Now, I see little or no point to doing this with a hand-sides semi-auto pistol. I mention it only as a reference leading up to my question.

2nd supporting reference: I have heard it said that bolt action rifles can be more accurate than semi-auto rifles, because there is no "extra" movement within the gun. There is no bolt slamming backward and round being ejected, which can twitch the rifle ever so slightly and change the POI.

So here is the question:
If one is using a bench rest of bipod, so the off hand is free, could someone place that hand firmly behind the cocking handle of a 10/22, to help steady the gun and prevent that handle from moving backward while it is being fired?

I watched some YouTube vids and it looks like the cocking handle does move when it is fired (unlike the charging handle on an AR-style M&P 15/22, which stays put).

Would stopping this motion be likely to help any, or cause more of a twitch because of the force of the bolt attempting to move backward and being blocked?

Would this be likely to damage the gun?

In the case of having a suppressor attached, would it eliminate the noise of the action cycling?

It doesn't seem likely that a .22LR would have enough energy to damage someone's hand while attempting to do this.

What do you think?

gb6491
02-23-2012, 09:03 PM
I think I'd go with an aftermarket device to accomplish that:
http://www.colossic.com/defenseproductboltlock.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-dKSs7ADFo
Not sure if this one is still being made:
http://www.silencerresearch.com/jg_bolt_lock.htm
Regards,
Greg

CJB
02-23-2012, 09:22 PM
The 10/22 will never be as accurate as a bolt gun.

However, the 10/22 can be made into a fairly accurate rifle.

There are two main problems with the 10/22. One is the barrel attachment, the other is the way it can be bed to the stock. Even the most elaborate 10/22 bedding is a rather marginal affair. Somebody used to make a 10/22 receiver with a rear lug setup, I haven't seen those for a while (but neither have I looked). The threaded barrel receivers are much better too, because the barrel will remain square to the bolt.

I'm not sure what you can get in terms of accuracy from the 10/22. I've got a Kimber of Oregon "All American Match" that came with a 50yd test target with a less than .250" group. I really dont think that you'll get that sort of group from a 10/22.

I cant imagine the bolt locking affair to be more than icing on the cake - after barrel attachment, bedding, chamber, trigger, stock... etc etc. Thats where your accuracy come from (chamber especially, and then bedding/barrel attachment).

For my own 10/22, I'll be using stainless dust and AccraGlass gel to bond the action to the barrel. Its got a cleanout hole in the receiver, and the barrel will be removable IF NEEDED via application of heat from a hot air gun. Bedding... I'm not sure yet. Then again, its not going to be a real target rifle, only a fun little rifle that shoots better than average.

(some reading later) Bolt locks to deaden sound on silenced guns? That works for me!

Scoundrel
02-23-2012, 09:28 PM
Thanks for the links! Interesting to find out how much the sound reduction is and that someone actually makes a product to get there.

Hmm. 10db reduction.

Sound energy goes on a logarithmic scale, so when it's already low, it's a diminishing effect. Reducing from 100db to 90db = BIG change. Reducing from 35db to 25db = barely noticeable.

Price for the product: $85 + $9 shipping.

Hmm. I may just do this. I mean, if I'm already shelling out the dough for a suppressor and tax stamp, threaded barrel to attach it to, a gun with a relatively quiet action to stick all of that onto, and a replacement hammer to lighten up the trigger pull, what's another $100 to go "all the way" and improve accuracy and reduce the noise at the same time?

Scoundrel
02-23-2012, 09:45 PM
I'll be using stainless dust and AccraGlass gel to bond the action to the barrel. Its got a cleanout hole in the receiver, and the barrel will be removable IF NEEDED via application of heat from a hot air gun. Bedding... I'm not sure yet.

I was reading about how Ruger has been gluing the barrels lately. One guy did a write-up with photos using a propane torch (said to strip it first so it's down to the receiver and barrel). I'm handy with a wrench and propane torch, but I'm a little nervous about this. I will need to swap the barrel because I've ordered a Green Mountain threaded barrel with a 1:9 twist so I can properly shoot the Aguila Sniper 60gr subsonic stuff with a suppressor on it.

I guess I can try this, being VERY careful with the flame. I don't have a heat gun. I do have a hair dryer. I guess I could go buy a heat gun, but I've never needed one before.

I don't think I'll glue the threaded barrel in because, depending how hard it is to swap them, I might want to put the stock one back on sometimes. I've heard that putting average .22LR (1235 fps, 36 grain) with a 1:9 barrel causes the bullet to spin itself apart and accuracy goes to hell. True/False?

CJB
02-24-2012, 12:03 AM
False on the spin apart.

1:9 not the best for general accuracy, but not terrible. Stick to 40g bullets, as the 1:9 is made for the 60g projectile.

Hadn't heard that Ruger was gluing in barrels! I plan on a slurry of micro particles and AG. Very interesting indeed.

Harbor Freight has their $15 hot air gun for $8 right now..... I got one!

tv_racin_fan
02-24-2012, 12:07 AM
I do not think that is true. I do know however that one can spin apart a light jacketted bullet. Something I would have to try out tho just for my own self.

hss.strat
02-24-2012, 12:55 AM
What are you shooting at? Flies? An army of dimes?!

My father in-laws hits a gopher at 100 yards pretty easily.

Scoundrel
02-24-2012, 01:39 AM
False on the spin apart.

1:9 not the best for general accuracy, but not terrible. Stick to 40g bullets, as the 1:9 is made for the 60g projectile.

Hadn't heard that Ruger was gluing in barrels! I plan on a slurry of micro particles and AG. Very interesting indeed.

Harbor Freight has their $15 hot air gun for $8 right now..... I got one!

I specifically want to shoot the 60gr. I have a bunch of them, and want to be able to spin them properly. Anyway, the threaded barrel comes with the 1:9, not a lot of choice from that vendor, but I was cool with it so I went for it. I also have 40gr sub-sonics so I will try them both out in the 1:9 barrel.

I'm not sure I understood you properly. So...

The 1:9 twist does not in fact mangle or overspin lighter, higher velocity bullets, reducing their accuracy?

Remember the info about Ruger gluing in the barrels was just something some dude wrote on the internet, and all of his pictures were broken links, so...

But I'll swing on over to HF and see about picking up one of them heat guns anyway. there have been times when I wanted to use one, ended up using propane instead and it worked OK, but...

Scoundrel
02-24-2012, 01:42 AM
I do not think that is true. I do know however that one can spin apart a light jacketted bullet. Something I would have to try out tho just for my own self.

Yeah, now that you mention it the thing about the jacketing rings a bell - I think "they" said the jackets would spin off. But none of the 22LR I have seen has a jacket on it. Only magnum.

You're absolutely right, I intend to test it for myself. That's always been part of the fun for me. Get a new setup, test the hell out of it, with lots of rounds. That's why I own like 9 different specs of 22LR.

Scoundrel
02-24-2012, 01:46 AM
What are you shooting at? Flies? An army of dimes?!

My father in-laws hits a gopher at 100 yards pretty easily.

I want to put a round through a flea's ass at 200 yards.

OK, maybe not. I'll be happy with a super quiet long pistol (the Ruger Charger) that groups 2 inches or less at 50 yards. If I can achieve that, I'll be smiling big.

One of the reasons I have been a little concerned about things that affect accuracy is that we're not actually talking about a full length 10/22 rifle. We're talking about a pistol stock with a 10/22 action stacked on it, and an 8" barrel. the stock barrel is 10", but the threaded 1:9 match barrel I bought for it is only 8".

muggsy
02-24-2012, 09:22 AM
I had a 10/22 that I glass bedded with Accraglas that was accurate enough for head shots on squirrels out to 50 yards. A good after market trigger will help accuracy as well.

Scoundrel
02-24-2012, 09:12 PM
Harbor Freight has their $15 hot air gun for $8 right now..... I got one!

So much for buying stuff made in the USA! I have a few Harbor Freight things. Most of them are pretty junky, but they work.

Went there today and picked up the heat gun. Asked about the sale price, was told I needed to have brought a coupon with me. (shrug) I wasn't about to raise a big fuss over $5.

Took it home and tested it out. I see why these are useful, I got some stuff REALLY hot without over-concentrating in a small area (propane torch does that) or turning anything black.

Promptly burned myself. Think I'll sue Harbor Freight.

MW surveyor
02-25-2012, 04:44 AM
Promptly burned myself. Think I'll sue Harbor Freight.

Now that's the American way! Especially if there was no warning label saying something like
"WARNING, WARNING, WARNING. This is a heat gun. It gets things really, really hot. You may get burned if you pick up the hot thing without adequate protection".

Tinman507
02-25-2012, 04:51 AM
http://www.asyousow.org/images/McD_Coffee_Cup.jpg

ripley16
02-25-2012, 06:33 AM
On locking or holding the bolt. The famous SOCOM pistol, the HK MK 23, the first truely practical suppressed modern military pistol, was originally designed with a Schieber device which locked the slide closed. This had the effect of making the pistol even more quiet and made brass retrieval simple. The is not unusual to see on some guns, just not common or practical for many situations.

Scoundrel
02-25-2012, 11:44 AM
Now that's the American way! Especially if there was no warning label saying something like
"WARNING, WARNING, WARNING. This is a heat gun. It gets things really, really hot. You may get burned if you pick up the hot thing without adequate protection".

I wouldn't know, I didn't read the manual or any wording on the box. I just looked at the picture on the front. It's their responsibility to make sure their product is safe for me.

Scoundrel
02-25-2012, 11:46 AM
On locking or holding the bolt. The famous SOCOM pistol, the HK MK 23, the first truely practical suppressed modern military pisto,l was originally designed with a Schieber device which locked the slide closed. This had the effect of making the pistol even more quiet and made brass retieval simple. The is not unusual to see on some gun, just not common or practical for many situations.

That's worth a Google search to look at. Thanks!

I went ahead and bought the bolt lock linked above. This is going to be fun!

CJB
02-25-2012, 01:48 PM
You have to REALLY spin a bullet to self destruct. There are bullets made for lower velocity - lightly constructed - that when shot at high velocity will self destruct. Try shooting a bullet for .22 Hornet in a .22-250 or 220 Swift. They can fly apart. Its a matter of twist and speed.

None of that will occur with .22LR's. Just not fast enough. We'd have to be in the 3500 fps and up range.

What WILL happen is some stripping perhaps... some little loss in accuracy. Thats all.

Scoundrel
02-25-2012, 01:51 PM
You have to REALLY spin a bullet to self destruct. There are bullets made for lower velocity - lightly constructed - that when shot at high velocity will self destruct. Try shooting a bullet for .22 Hornet in a .22-250 or 220 Swift. They can fly apart. Its a matter of twist and speed.

None of that will occur with .22LR's. Just not fast enough. We'd have to be in the 3500 fps and up range.

What WILL happen is some stripping perhaps... some little loss in accuracy. Thats all.

OK. I'll probably rig up a soft backstop to see if I can recover some of the bullets and see what they look like. Soggy newspaper in water jugs, maybe.

Scoundrel
02-29-2012, 12:17 AM
I specifically want to shoot the 60gr. I have a bunch of them, and want to be able to spin them properly. Anyway, the threaded barrel comes with the 1:9, not a lot of choice from that vendor, but I was cool with it so I went for it. I also have 40gr sub-sonics so I will try them both out in the 1:9 barrel.

I'm not sure I understood you properly. So...

The 1:9 twist does not in fact mangle or overspin lighter, higher velocity bullets, reducing their accuracy?

Remember the info about Ruger gluing in the barrels was just something some dude wrote on the internet, and all of his pictures were broken links, so...

But I'll swing on over to HF and see about picking up one of them heat guns anyway. there have been times when I wanted to use one, ended up using propane instead and it worked OK, but...

Update: My Charger pistol barrel was not glued in, unless you count where the paint from the receiver overlapped onto the very back of the barrel just a little bit.

Anyway, I just removed the two screws that go through the v-block and hold the barrel in, and then twisted while pulling. It didn't take a lot of force to break it loose, and then the barrel slid right out.

It looks like there was some factory oil in there, but it could have been CLP. It definitely was not glued. I don't think I'll glue the match barrel in place. Mainly what I want from that barrel is the threading, and the 1:9 twist. I don't need glue and bedding - I suspect the limiting factor on its accuracy will be ME.

I like the idea of being able to easily remove the barrel for cleaning.

CJB
02-29-2012, 06:18 AM
Cant give you a picture at the moment - but a small hole in the back of the receiver is the preferred choice for cleaning. The barrel stays mounted - you clean from chamber to muzzle.

Scoundrel
02-29-2012, 11:23 AM
Hmm. Just looked it over, with the bolt forward and back, didn't see any likely holes. Manual doesn't mention it. Maybe this model doesn't have it? Post a pic if it's convenient. Not a big deal.

I don't imagine I'd be removing the barrel much, just when things get really nasty in there and I can't quite reach into the cutout that the ejector goes into.

Some folks will only run a brush through the barrel one direction - the same direction that bullets go through it - but I won't be getting that sticky about it.

jlottmc
02-29-2012, 12:05 PM
You would have to drill the hole yourself. The idea is just that to run the brush the same way, supposed to help prevent damage to the muzzle crown. I find that they make life much easier when I run a patch down the bore, and don't have to worry about stopping before I hit the action, or receiver. Makes life really easy.

Scoundrel
02-29-2012, 12:14 PM
Hmm. The whole idea of only running the brass brush one direction seems like overkill to me, but I _CAN_ see how creating a burr on the muzzle crown by smacking it with the rod could be a problem.

In order to push a rod through the chamber from the back, it seems like the hole would have to be centered in the back of the receiver, which means I'd have to remove the trigger group and bolt to do it. Removing the bolt and putting it back in is a PITA. Maybe I'd get better at it with time, but at this point I think I'd rather remove the barrel than pull that bolt out. Although if it's nasty enough in there for me to be pulling the barrel off for cleaning, I'd probably be removing the bolt as well anyway. Hmm.

Am I supposing right? Anyone got a picture?

Maybe a bore snake would be best for "routine" cleanings, and removing the bolt and barrel is a deep cleaning thing. I don't mind spending the few extra minutes messing with the barrel, and I'm not really sure about drilling that hole.

jlottmc
02-29-2012, 12:26 PM
Pulling all of that is not a problem. The Ruger 10/22 platform is very user friendly (the Charger has the same mechanics). The way to drill the hole if memory serves is to pull the bolt, and trigger mech. and pull the receiver from the stock, line up and drill, replace the bolt and trigger group, and the stock. The stock will cover the hole, so it all comes out to clean any way. I happen to know that Timney makes a trigger group that is supposed to be even simpler than stock for that platform.

Scoundrel
02-29-2012, 12:31 PM
I've only had it for a day or so, but I stripped it all the way down to put in a Volquartsen hammer and some springs for a lighter trigger. Pulling the trigger group out is easy enough, and getting the bolt out wasn't bad, but I struggled for a bit getting the bolt back in.

Holding the charging handle while compressing the spring with the other hand, then somehow holding it compressed while dropping the bolt back in was tricky for me. Like I said, maybe I'd get better at it with practice...

jlottmc
02-29-2012, 12:56 PM
Wait till you get a MKIII. Those will make you crazy.

Scoundrel
02-29-2012, 05:19 PM
Wait till you get a MKIII. Those will make you crazy.

Hah! Have one. Replaced the hammer for a lighter trigger, removed the magazine safety, added the quick strip kit. It's still fiddly, but way better than stock.

But nothing in the MK III required you to hold a lever with one hand, compress a spring using a screwdriver with the other hand, and then try to hold it in place while snapping a bolt down onto it. :eek:

CJB
02-29-2012, 08:09 PM
You do have to drill the hole yourself. SMACK dab in the middle (sideways) and directly in line with the bore - which as I recall, is also in line with the cross pin in the frame behind the bolt (bolt stop). The best way to do it - with the old or sacrifice barrel in the action, super glue a drill bit into the end of a cleaning rod (or epoxy.. whatever). Now put that though the bore and turn it with a drill motor (low rpm). Drill through the frame (easy) and there's your pilot hole. Enlarge the hole to accept a cleaning rod of your choice. Done.

Scoundrel
03-03-2012, 02:54 PM
I specifically want to shoot the 60gr. I have a bunch of them, and want to be able to spin them properly. Anyway, the threaded barrel comes with the 1:9, not a lot of choice from that vendor, but I was cool with it so I went for it. I also have 40gr sub-sonics so I will try them both out in the 1:9 barrel.

I'm not sure I understood you properly. So...

The 1:9 twist does not in fact mangle or overspin lighter, higher velocity bullets, reducing their accuracy?

Remember the info about Ruger gluing in the barrels was just something some dude wrote on the internet, and all of his pictures were broken links, so...

But I'll swing on over to HF and see about picking up one of them heat guns anyway. there have been times when I wanted to use one, ended up using propane instead and it worked OK, but...

OK, so the GM barrel with the 1:9 twist arrived, and I took it to the range.

I get pretty good accuracy with the 40 grain sub-sonics. I am pretty sure the limiting factor is me, and I have some work to do, mainly in holding the gun steady.

But I found that the 60 grain Aguila rounds still tumble and make keyholes at 25 yards. I suspect it's because the barrel is only 8 inches. I suspect that in order to stabilize those 60 grain rounds, you need a 1:9 twist AND a full length barrel. Bummer, that.

So now I am considering what to do next.

The main reason I bought the GM barrel was because it is threaded, so I can put a suppressor on it later. I know I could have gotten the stock barrel threaded, but did not want to be without a barrel in the meantime.

The ability to shoot the 60 grain stuff was a secondary objective, and an optional one.

The GM barrel is heavier, which is good from a recoil perspective.
The GM barrel is 2 inches shorter than the stock barrel, which is bad from an accuracy perspective.

I think the next thing to do is work on shooting a lot of the 4-grain sub-sonics through both barrels, to determine which one shoots them better. Then if I find that the 1:16 10-inch barrel shoots the 40 grain sub-sonic just as well as the 1:9 8-inch barrel, I might just send the stock barrel off to be threaded.

Who does decent quality, inexpensive barrel threading?
I called a local gunsmith, but the conversation did not inspire confidence.

Or, who makes a 10-12 inch 10/22 blue threaded barrel for less than $150?

Scoundrel
03-08-2012, 08:26 PM
I think I'd go with an aftermarket device to accomplish that:
http://www.colossic.com/defenseproductboltlock.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-dKSs7ADFo
Not sure if this one is still being made:
http://www.silencerresearch.com/jg_bolt_lock.htm
Regards,
Greg

Got the Colossic bolt lock. Discovered that it actually _reduces_ accuracy by a pretty large amount, at least on a Ruger Charger pistol with an 8" or 10" barrel.

I ran a bunch of tests with different barrel twists and ammo weights/velocities, and the problem was consistent across the board. I submitted my findings to Colossic, and they are considering putting a disclaimer on the website regarding short barrels. They think that the bolt being locked might increase pressure, causing stability issues in short barrels.

They also gave me an RMA number and will be refunding me for it. Great customer service!

I can post the pictures of my range testing if anyone's interested.

Scoundrel
03-26-2012, 07:39 PM
Update: Colossic followed through with the refund, and even refunded my shipping cost too, which I was not expecting. That's a stand-up company for sure.

Since then, I found another way to reduce the bolt noise: bolt buffers.

A bolt buffer is basically a replacement for the bolt stop pin, made of something other than steel. I bought the Wurstmeister brand ones, which are made of polyurethane. They were pretty cheap, and I can really hear the difference when cycling the bolt by hand.

I can't wait to try it out with a suppressor and subsonic ammo. But I will have to wait.

In the meantime, there is an immediate plus to the bolt buffer: It doesn't fall out of the damned receiver every time I lift the thing out of the stock! The steel pin was always falling out. Was tempted to put some caulk on it.