Kahr response on nose dive / fail to feed issue?

[CalBig]

I've had a Kahr PM40 for several months now. I posted my initial experiences in a range report, and only have one lingering issue with this pistol. Unfortunately this is an issue common to many Kahr pistols across many Kahr owners. The issue is the bullet dive issue causing failure to feed, which is worse with the higher capacity magazines (6 round in my case).

The issue is that the first round from the magazine (or in some cases first 2 or 3, depending on ammunition choice, Kahr model, and random chance) fails to feed. A fully loaded magazine seems to cause all rounds other than the top round to sit more horizontally in the magazine, without the tip being elevated. When the slides strips the top round out of the magazine, the tip is pushed down and impacts the feed ramp straight on, instead of at an angle, causing a failure to feed.

Some forum members (including myself) have had varying degrees of success with a follower modification that places more pressure further forward on the round in order to reduce the ability of the other rounds in the magazine to sit horizontally creating the gap at the front of the magazine. There are a few things which probably all contribute to the issue.

1) Follower design allows cartridge to rock forward.

2) High spring tension in larger magazines.

3) Unconfirmed, but I suspect that the follower may actually be moving in the magazine sleeve at high spring pressures, making it easier for cartridges to shift to horizontal position.

I have not seen any official word from Kahr on this issue, which seems to be a design issue given its commonality across multiple pistols and multiple models. Does anyone know if Kahr has an official response (other than the FAQ item that says to not rack the slide to chamber the first round)? Given Kahr's position in the market as a top of the line sub compact I would have expected more from them than I've been able to find so far. In the absence of official word, I will probably reach out to Kahr to see what their position is on the issue. Its seems that some modifications to the magazine, spring, and/or follower are called for.

-Adam

[jocko]

u mention the follower mod, there is another thing to checkbeing u mention it happens on the first few rounds in the magazine. If u willgo to the kahr tech section and hit on the propper prepping thread it mentions how to check for the posability that the magazine rfelease button might be interfering with the propper magazine feeding. easy correctable and certainly easy to chekc out. If it is not happening with the flush fit magazines but only the extended magazine,s then "join" the crowd of many how do have issues with the extended magazine some solveable, some seem not as easy...

[MLESa7990]

I've been told by kahr that grip can be a cause for ftf with the extended mags. many people will inadvertently grip the extended piece of the mag which can then very slightly cant the mag forward, altering the path of the rounds and causing ftfs. I actually tried this with my extended mag for my PM9 and low and behold it did cause a ftf. i then mad ea conscious effort to not put a tight grip on the extension piece and no ftfs with the extended mag.

[CalBig]

It's only with the extended magazine, and appears to be primarily due to the increased spring tension. The magazine release does not appear to interfere with anything on my PM40. With a freshly loaded magazine I can recreate this problem, which also appear to exonerate the magazine release issue in this case.

I believe many people on the forums are in agreement that this issue is real. What I'm more interested in is whether anyone has heard a response from Kahr on it.

-Adam

[jocko]

take the coil out of ur flush fit magazine and try it in the extended mag to test out ur theory.

If it works fine with the flush fit mag and not the extended mag, then what would be your suggestion to kahr to fix it, As far as I know, no one has come up with a definitive fix "yet".

[MLESa7990]

It's only with the extended magazine, and appears to be primarily due to the increased spring tension. The magazine release does not appear to interfere with anything on my PM40. With a freshly loaded magazine I can recreate this problem, which also appear to exonerate the magazine release issue in this case.

I believe many people on the forums are in agreement that this issue is real. What I'm more interested in is whether anyone has heard a response from Kahr on it.

-Adam


I posted what I was told...Why not try it?

[CalBig]

I posted what I was told...Why not try it?

I was replying to jocko, and we ended up posting at the same time. It is true that there is some play in the extended mag, and canting it forward can make the problem worse. It's also true that a solid thwack on the bottom of the mag is usually enough to get things to feed (now that I've made the follower modifications suggested elsewhere). Here's the deal though... This is not an iPhone. Steve Jobs (RIP) can't just tell us that we're holding this one wrong. This is a piece of survival equipment. Should it ever need to be used for its intended purpose there will be lots of adrenaline and very little problem solving going on in the brain. The grip is probably going to be a little tight. If I've exhausted my 5 round mag and reloaded with the 6, things are likely desperate. The mechanical device has to work. Belief that this product was superior is what lead me to spend twice as much on it as on competing products.

Does anybody believe that Kahr should be working on their design here? Perhaps I do have unreasonable expectations. I purchased a Glock 27 last night to mitigate the risk that my Kahr might not ever function well enough that I can trust it for personal protection. I'll continue to work on my Kahr, of course, because aside from this one issue it is a wonderful piece of machinery.

-Adam

[muggsy]

Cal,
I noticed that after loading three rounds into the magazine that the first bullet loaded starts to cant downward in the magazine. With the mag fully loaded all of the bullets cant downward except for the top round. When the top round is stripped from the magazine the rim of the top round catches the groove of the next round in line and causes it to move forward in the magazine. If the second round is pushed forward far enough it will nose dive into the feed ramp when it is stripped from the magazine. Like you, I believe that Kahr should address this issue.

[jocko]

stick with the flush magazines. Mlesa stated what I have been told also. I can't exlain why it does that, my theory and it is just a theory is that the mag well is just to short n most of the kahrs for this to be 100% perfect with the extended magazne for ALL OWNERS Many here have posted before no issues with the extended magazines. If u really think that one extra round is the difference between living or dying then just buy a bigger capaicity gun. My two kahrs when the first round is shot or racked into the barrel the next round is moved forward. I do believe every kahr works that way. I do not believe it is a design fault. It is the way ur kahr works, now if u want to modify, bend, bang or whatever to the magazine to stop it and if it please u, then it is ur gun, DO IT.I personally have no issue with that round looking like that. It works that way.

I would say that 99% of kahr owners don't even look at where that next round lays in the magazine, IF THE GUN GOES BANG EVERYTIME. I in my little mind really feel we are making to much to do out of this. It is an issue if u want to make it an issue but for funtionality, it is not. If ur having issues with ur kahr and blaming what that next round looks like in ur magazine, then I feel u are missing the real issue.

Muggsy ur stating things that u notice, my question is : are those things making ur kahr not working right, will the gun go bang until empty?. If not then something might be wrong with the gun or magazine, but otherwise what something looks like to us to be maybe an issue, really is not.

[CalBig]

My Kahr PM40 did not go bang until empty in the stock configuration. It went bang once and then experienced a type 3 malfuction (failure to feed, brass low in the ejection port). This is not a theoretical issue, it's a practical one. Based on comments in other threads, this is not an uncommon experience.

I'll give Kahr a call/email and see what they think.

-Adam

[aray]

I love my Kahr CW9 and it is my only carry weapon (when I can carry out of state) but let's be honest: there are just too many FTF postings here in kahrtalk to discount that there is some endemic problem here with some (not all) stock Kahrs coming off the line. True - there are a lot of excellent home fixes posted in the forum (polishing the ramp, sanding the follower, etc.) that resolve most of the issues for most of the owners, but the fact that this is a recurring theme (and probably the most common recurring theme) should be troubling to Kahr and cause for a relook on their part.

[jocko]

ur opinion, I just disagree , certainly the cw9 is a very very reliable and unproblemmatic gun. Ur gonna read kahr issues here first, this is a kahr forum, very understandable. Read the kimber site, makes the kahr site seem like a piker as far as complaints. But again people swear by kimbers, not at them. and in my mind from experience with my 2 khars I feel I am being honest

There are other good gun makers out there, if one is not sold on kahrs..

[jocko]

is this a new kahr? , how many rounds through it.

[CalBig]

is this a new kahr? , how many rounds through it.

About 500 rounds. See my range report / break-in thread at http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7296.

-Adam

[jocko]

from reading ur posts u stated the 6 round magazine was the issue. are u having the same problems with the 5 round flush fit magazine?

[kahrnut1]

i put the P40 style mag base on my PM40 5 rd & pm9 6 round took some sanding. using dpx ammo i could cause ftf on both guns by increasing little finger pressure. went back to flat base and perfect funtion. maybe kahr knows something after all

[muggsy]

stick with the flush magazines. Mlesa stated what I have been told also. I can't exlain why it does that, my theory and it is just a theory is that the mag well is just to short n most of the kahrs for this to be 100% perfect with the extended magazne for ALL OWNERS Many here have posted before no issues with the extended magazines. If u really think that one extra round is the difference between living or dying then just buy a bigger capaicity gun. My two kahrs when the first round is shot or racked into the barrel the next round is moved forward. I do believe every kahr works that way. I do not believe it is a design fault. It is the way ur kahr works, now if u want to modify, bend, bang or whatever to the magazine to stop it and if it please u, then it is ur gun, DO IT.I personally have no issue with that round looking like that. It works that way.

I would say that 99% of kahr owners don't even look at where that next round lays in the magazine, IF THE GUN GOES BANG EVERYTIME. I in my little mind really feel we are making to much to do out of this. It is an issue if u want to make it an issue but for funtionality, it is not. If ur having issues with ur kahr and blaming what that next round looks like in ur magazine, then I feel u are missing the real issue.

Muggsy ur stating things that u notice, my question is : are those things making ur kahr not working right, will the gun go bang until empty?. If not then something might be wrong with the gun or magazine, but otherwise what something looks like to us to be maybe an issue, really is not.

I don't know if it's causing the problem or not. It was just an observation that I made while attempting to eliminate the problem. For me sanding the follower worked, but for some it didn't. Still, I think that it is a problem that should be addressed by the manufacturer.

[muggsy]

I love my Kahr CW9 and it is my only carry weapon (when I can carry out of state) but let's be honest: there are just too many FTF postings here in kahrtalk to discount that there is some endemic problem here with some (not all) stock Kahrs coming off the line. True - there are a lot of excellent home fixes posted in the forum (polishing the ramp, sanding the follower, etc.) that resolve most of the issues for most of the owners, but the fact that this is a recurring theme (and probably the most common recurring theme) should be troubling to Kahr and cause for a relook on their part.

+1 aray

[JFootin]

I love my Kahr CW9 and it is my only carry weapon (when I can carry out of state) but let's be honest: there are just too many FTF postings here in kahrtalk to discount that there is some endemic problem here with some (not all) stock Kahrs coming off the line. True - there are a lot of excellent home fixes posted in the forum (polishing the ramp, sanding the follower, etc.) that resolve most of the issues for most of the owners, but the fact that this is a recurring theme (and probably the most common recurring theme) should be troubling to Kahr and cause for a relook on their part.


+1 aray

+2 aray.

[aray]

jocko,

I agree with your comments, all manufacturers have some problems, and I love my CW9. Indeed I hope someday to add a CM9 to my collection when I can afford another gun purchase. Kahr is an amazing pioneer in small reliable concealable weapons. Having said all that I think there are enough FTF articles in kahrtalk (where yes of course you'd expect to see them posted) that we can reasonable see a FTF pattern. Not all to be sure, not even most. But consistently some. Which leads me to wonder whether it would be wise for Kahr to take a look at some of the home fixes in this forum, and see if the tweaks owners have posted here would lead to a slightly improved design to make a good series of guns even better.

I don't know what else you can conclude. These postings just keep coming, from experienced gun owners (who know what limp wristing is for example), who buy brand new guns right off the assembly line, who expect to feed standard quality ammunition in the gun, pull the trigger, and have it go bang every time - and it doesn't go bang every time. And, I might add, even after the break-in period and the excellent "proper prep" article.

At some point you just have to wonder who is really at fault here.

[jocko]

tell that to kimber owners. their forum is chucked full of complaints, but it is a kimber forum so one is gonna read there first

Kahrs ain't perfect, not sure there is that perfect gun. it takes some time also to weed issues out from kahrs stand point. We think they should be able to make changes in two weeks, when it can take months to make changes. This ain't no mom and pop store, this is a big gun maker and things just don't go as smooth as they like either, nor as we like either.

I just read and I am trying to find out more that the Indiana state police is AGAIN sending back a bunch of thier G17 due to issues. they replaced their entire purchase of G22 's with the G17 a few years back due to so many issues with the G22, now supposably they are having something with the G17. These are glocks hell they are not supposed to give any issues, just ask any glockster that.

so my point is if you wanna pick on kahrs, that is fine, they ain't perfect but certainly don't put kahr in the category as the only gun maker with gun issues..95% of all kahrs IMO are trouble free, probalby even higher than that. l I hate it when I read of a gun that doesn't work right and I don't care who makes it. I know I sold guns for 40 years and I hated it when I sold a gun and it came back with issues and then I had to take care of it for the cusomter. It was an inconvenieve for me also but it was the way it was back then and it has not changedalot even today. except back 40 years ago we have very few gun makers and certainlyh back then only one glock or two the G17 and G19. One or two 45's makers, so less issues certainly came up. I think also the product quality back then was better,maybe not as the makers back then didn't sell the volume of guns that these makers do today and in volume, we know sh-t happens. Look at the toyota recalls this past two years and prior to that people swore by toyota, today now I think people say , well they are just like the rest of the auto industry.

This forum is never gonna see the perfect posts day in and day out. we are always gonna read about issues here. some are legit issues to, some could be a multitude of things that maybe are not totally gun related. Lets face it, some people should not own guns either, some people should definitley not own small ass guns that require alittle more finesse in usage and handling..

[CalBig]

I spoke to a friendly gentlemen from Kahr and they said that no modifications should be needed to get reliable function, and that if I continue to see issues I should send it in for warranty repair. They've investigated the nose dive issue, but had nothing specific to say about it.

-Adam

Edit: Nobody wants to be that guy.

[Tilos]

Adam:

They all got the talking points e-mail and I don't expect you will get any different answer from anyone at Kahr, so why bother.
And Kahr reads stuff posted here and have been known to respond, so why post every conversation with them.

Do you want to become the phone number on the wall at the take out pizza place?
You know, the guy who never tips the driver and keeps whining about the pizza.

They said they'd fix it...let them.

Tilos

[aray]

jocko,

If I came off as picking on Kahr I’m sorry because I didn’t mean for it to sound that way. I think some manufacturers (whether it is guns, cars, or whatever) are mostly good with a few lemons. Other manufacturers (guns, cars, etc.) have lower quality, worse design, more problems, more returns, etc., and yet can turn out a few really excellent samples that exhibit no problems at all. I think Kahr falls into the former category. Most of us here are obvious Kahr advocates and think the world of the guns. As stated I hope to add to my Kahr collection when I can.

But as you yourself point out Kahr ain’t perfect. No one is. To that end, the number of FTF articles posted in kahrtalk (and other gun forums I follow) indicates to me that this is a recurring problem (indeed THE most common recurring problem) for a certain percentage of factory-line guns. I’m sure it’s small, but I’ve read enough of these postings to also believe that it is very real as well. And if it’s your gun that isn’t going bang reliably, then the 99% of other Kahrs that work well probably doesn’t matter much to you.

And I agree this won’t be solved in days or weeks. But I hope, as alluded to by CalBig, that Kahr is indeed looking at this and hopefully taking this seriously, and hopefully is seeking information from this forum for both ideas on causes as well as possible solutions. It’s in their hands, of course, and they may not choose to tell us about it; I get that. But I think we and they would be better off if this is a serious investigation on their part. And that’s my main point.

[jocko]

no argument from me aray,.

[John222]

Here's a dumb newbie question - Has anyone tried changing the spring. I think everyone agrees the spring force in the mag is excessive causing the follower to rock and result in the top round being positioned incorrectly. The follower sanding fix just helps to alleviate the spring force problem. For instance, take the spring from the 6 rd mag and put it in the 7rd mag and see if the ammo alignment improves. I do not have my 7rd mag yet, so I'm just assuming the 6 rd mag spring is shorter than the 7 rd mag spring.


***** Never mind - I simulated shorter spring and it doesn't improve anything.

[CJB]

..95% of all kahrs IMO are trouble free, probalby even higher than that

Jocko, can't say for sure about Kahr, but if the stuff I sell hits 5% somebody's butt (and possibly head) is on the line to make it right - RIGHT NOW.

In reality the product problems are more like well under 1 percent.

I also suspect that Kahr keeps some sort of running analysis for warranty repair - and if its like our stuff, fully 40 percent of all warranty submissions have no issue, except lack of user knowledge or lack of proper use (including maintenance).