Jesus Guns

[fitzgood]

Trijicon is going to regret this one...

No More Jesus Rifles - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jesus-rifles/story?id=9618791)

[ripley16]

Trijicon is going to regret this one...

No More Jesus Rifles - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jesus-rifles/story?id=9618791)


Why? Makes me want one. People that stand on what they believe are good people in my book. They've hurt no one.

[fitzgood]

Why? Makes me want one. People that stand on what they believe are good people in my book. They've hurt no one.

I would agree if they were upfront about it being there but they were not and what they did has hurt their clients. Thats not standing on what you believe thats just being sneaky. Would you feel the same way if they had been a Muslim owned company and put hidden Koran messages on your scope? Besides if Trijicon really wanted to take a stand for what they believe why don't they tell the US and the other military customers that are pissed off about this to get buy scopes from someone else if they don't like the Bible reference? That would be standing for what they believe. Not sneaking something in that any moron would know would not make your client happy and then removing it to save your a$$ once your caught. Just my 2 cents anyway.

[TheSorb]

I would agree if they were upfront about it being there but they were not and what they did has hurt their clients. Thats not standing on what you believe thats just being sneaky. Would you feel the same way if they had been a Muslim owned company and put hidden Koran messages on your scope? Besides if Trijicon really wanted to take a stand for what they believe why don't they tell the US and the other military customers that are pissed off about this to get buy scopes from someone else if they don't like the Bible reference? That would be standing for what they believe. Not sneaking something in that any moron would know would not make your client happy and then removing it to save your a$$ once your caught. Just my 2 cents anyway.

If you watched the entire report, you know that Trijicon's owner died in 2003. I doubt that he would make any concessions if he was still around. It's Trijicon's current board/leadership that is backtracking.

And there's nothing sneaky about the company's practice, as it's well-known that the Scripture references are there. Obviously the military bureaucrats who awarded contracts to Trijicon didn't care or didn't bother to do a little research. It's pretty typical for those idiots to cry foul now just to cover their own behinds...as much as the liberals/socialists want to deny it - THE U.S. WAS FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES!!! AND OUR SUCCESS AS LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD IS A DIRECT RESULT OF OUR CHRISTIAN HERITAGE!!!

[ltxi]

Gotta agree with fitzgood on this one. Sneaking it in was really poor form. Certainly from a business perspective it was not very wise.

[ripley16]

Would you feel the same way if they had been a Muslim owned company and put hidden Koran messages on your scope?

Yes I would, in fact that would have been even more appropriate, in an ironic way, considering the war in which we are currently engaged.

[Ol'coot]

Trijicon is a Michigan based company and from what I have read other places that states that they have been adding the text since the beginning as the original owner and founder started the company as he was very religious, I also read that the company has agreed to remove the text from any new production and will provide te DOD with 100 kits that will allow the text to be easily removed from existing product for free. I think the whole issue has been blown way out of proportion.

Trijicon news (http://www.trijicon.com/whats_new.cfm?whats_newID=170#170)

Here is a quote from Trijicon concerning this


Statement from Trijicon, Inc.
Wednesday, January 20, 2010—For two generations Trijicon, a Michigan-based family owned business, has been working to provide America’s military men and women with high quality, innovative sighting systems for the weapons they use. Our effort is simple and straightforward: to help our servicemen and women win the war on terror and come home safe to their families. As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades. As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation.

[Dozer]

I will have to agree with TheSorb on this one. I don't believe the references were added to sneek biblical teaching into the Muslim part of the world. They have been there for the last couple of decades, so there was no sneeking involved. When I purchase a product, I research it pretty well. If I were to spend a great deal of money on something, say $600+ million, I would be intimately familiar with all aspects of it prior to signing the contract. Trijicon makes a very good product that bears a personal message from the founder. If the references were added after the contract was signed, then the terms of the contract were illegally changed. I don't know the details, but I think everything was on the up and up.

[johnh]

They have had the verses on there for many, many years. Each one I have seen had something to do with bringing light to darkness. I thought they were pretty clever as it must have taken some effort to find ones that would associate with the illumination angle of Trijicon products. Anyone who owns Trijicon optics was probably aware of these markings. To me the only issue here is a liberal media going after a defense/firearms industry firm. I seriously doubt any claims that this offended anyone.

John

[4wheel1]

After seeing one of the article about how they are having to provide kits to remove these numbers, and seeing the above comments from Trijicon, I will pay more, even look harder to purchase one of their scopes the next time I need to purchase a scope. I feel this company has won my support.

[ltxi]

They have had the verses on there for many, many years. Each one I have seen had something to do with bringing light to darkness. I thought they were pretty clever as it must have taken some effort to find ones that would associate with the illumination angle of Trijicon products. Anyone who owns Trijicon optics was probably aware of these markings. To me the only issue here is a liberal media going after a defense/firearms industry firm. I seriously doubt any claims that this offended anyone.

John

Conservative as I am, I disagree with (most of) you folks. "Hidden" and personally motivated religious messages have no place on US made instruments of war...especially today. I commiserate with our front line troops who now have to explain and/or reconcile the Jesus weapons with their already antsy Muslim allies and/or friends.

As to "I seriously doubt any claims that this offended anyone."....well, John, it certainly has offended me, a 38 plus year retired military service vet.

fitzgood...I've definitely got your six on this one.

[jeep45238]

If it offends you, tough crap, no matter who you are.

As an American, you have freedom OF religion - not freedom FROM religion.

[TheSorb]

Conservative as I am, I disagree with (most of) you folks. "Hidden" and personally motivated religious messages have no place on US made products of war...especially today. I commiserate with our front line troops who now have to explain and/or reconcile the Jesus weapons with their already antsy Muslim allies and/or friends.

As to "I seriously doubt any claims that this offended anyone."....well, John, it certainly has offended me, a 38 plus year military service vet.

ripley16...I've definitely got your six on this one.

Why is it perfectly fine for muslims to openly flaunt their beliefs & practices with absolutely no consideration of those who will be offended, but when a Christian even makes mention of his/her beliefs, he/she is publicly castigated and rebuked mercilessly?:confused:

[fitzgood]

Conservative as I am, I disagree with (most of) you folks. "Hidden" and personally motivated religious messages have no place on US made instruments of war...especially today. I commiserate with our front line troops who now have to explain and/or reconcile the Jesus weapons with their already antsy Muslim allies and/or friends.

As to "I seriously doubt any claims that this offended anyone."....well, John, it certainly has offended me, a 38 plus year retired military service vet.

fitzgood...I've definitely got your six on this one.

I understand the feelings of many who have posted. I agree that Christians should be able to say "Merry Christmas" and I certainly agree that there is widespread reverse discrimination against Christianity. This just isn't like that IMO.

A government contracted product is not the place for a government contractor to exercise free speech or freedom of religion. When you sign a contract to make scopes for the government you should produce scopes that meet the specifications. No more, no less. Just imagine if you found that the desktop at your kids school had "Allah is God" or "Wicca is Truth" or any other non Christian symbolism imprinted on it by a government contractor. Would you still defend the contractor's right to express their faith on their product? I know as a parent, and a tax payer I would be pissed, but if I supported Trijicon on this matter, I feel that I would have little room to complain.

[ripley16]

A government contracted product is not the place for a government contractor to exercise free speech or freedom of religion.

Maybe you should reconsider that statement. Do you not see the crushing irony there?


Just imagine if you found that the desktop at your kids school had "Allah is God"

That isn't what Trijicon did. Would 2:191 bother you, or 2:216? Compare apples to apples here.

[300WSM]

I really hate thate Trijicon caved, but I want our troops to have the best. I guess that's what's most important.

What I can't get over is the fear of offending our enemies. Jeez!

[fitzgood]

Maybe you should reconsider that statement. Do you not see the crushing irony there?

I really don't see any irony in my statement crushing or otherwise. Van you be more specific?


That isn't what Trijicon did. Would 2:191 bother you, or 2:216? Compare apples to apples here.

What they did is add a religious reference that was obscure enough to avoid immediate detection but obvious to those using the product. So make up your own scenario with whatever numbers or letters you want. Just keep it apples to apples...your kid knows its there, and knows what it means. The real question is, do you support a government contractor adding his own religious messages to products even if its not your religion? I am just saying I don't want to go down that road myself.

[ripley16]

I really don't see any irony in my statement crushing or otherwise. Can you be more specific?

You are saying that the Govt., one of who's purposes for existence is protect our freedoms, has the power and authority to restrict that same personal freedom. If that is the case then the freedom does not exist.

Does the Govt. purchase Kosher foods? Yes. Does the Govt. purchase Bibles as well as korans...yes. I see no difference in what Trijicon has done for years, which can't possibly hurt or offend anyone, and having a Govt. recognised and sactioned holiday called Christmas.

Govt. exists to protect the exercise OF religious freedom, not protect us FROM religion.

That is the irony that I saw.

I see this as no different than our money having the motto; In God we trust" on it.

[TheSorb]

What they did is add a religious reference that was obscure enough to avoid immediate detection but obvious to those using the product. So make up your own scenario with whatever numbers or letters you want. Just keep it apples to apples...your kid knows its there, and knows what it means. The real question is, do you support a government contractor adding his own religious messages to products even if its not your religion? I am just saying I don't want to go down that road myself.

NOTHING was added! The references have been there for decades. If the U.S. military didn't want products with scriptural references, they should have awarded the contract to somebody else. It's not right to cry about it now!:puke:

[fitzgood]

It seems like you guys are avoiding the question by splitting hairs about the wording.


I understand the feelings of many who have posted. I agree that Christians should be able to say "Merry Christmas" and I certainly agree that there is widespread reverse discrimination against Christianity. This just isn't like that IMO.

A government contracted product is not the place for a government contractor to exercise free speech or freedom of religion. When you sign a contract to make scopes for the government you should produce scopes that meet the specifications. No more, no less. Just imagine if you found that the desktop at your kids school had "Allah is God" or "Wicca is Truth" or any other non Christian symbolism imprinted on it by a government contractor. Would you still defend the contractor's right to express their faith on their product? I know as a parent, and a tax payer I would be pissed, but if I supported Trijicon on this matter, I feel that I would have little room to complain.


Maybe you should reconsider that statement. Do you not see the crushing irony there?



That isn't what Trijicon did. Would 2:191 bother you, or 2:216? Compare apples to apples here.


What they did is add a religious reference that was obscure enough to avoid immediate detection but obvious to those using the product. So make up your own scenario with whatever numbers or letters you want. Just keep it apples to apples...your kid knows its there, and knows what it means. The real question is, do you support a government contractor adding his own religious messages to products even if its not your religion? I am just saying I don't want to go down that road myself.


NOTHING was added! The references have been there for decades. If the U.S. military didn't want products with scriptural references, they should have awarded the contract to somebody else. It's not right to cry about it now!:puke:

[recoilguy]

I give Kudo to Trijicon. I say look harder through the scope then for something to complain about.

RCG

[ltxi]

fitzgood....no sense spinning yourself up further, imo. I'm 100% with ya, but there ain't no winning in religious arguments. I just made my statement and let it go.

[tv_racin_fan]

You are saying that the Govt., one of who's purposes for existence is protect our freedoms, has the power and authority to restrict that same personal freedom. If that is the case then the freedom does not exist.

Does the Govt. purchase Kosher foods? Yes. Does the Govt. purchase Bibles as well as korans...yes. I see no difference in what Trijicon has done for years, which can't possibly hurt or offend anyone, and having a Govt. recognised and sactioned holiday called Christmas.

Govt. exists to protect the exercise OF religious freedom, not protect us FROM religion.

That is the irony that I saw.

I see this as no different than our money having the motto; In God we trust" on it.

Why was IN GOD WE TRUST added to the US currency and when? While you are at it explain why UNDER GOD was added to the pledge. In my opinion neither should ever have happened.

I personally do not believe my religion has any business in the govt and I know the govt has no business in religion. I can not believe that the founding fathers founded a nation on the basis of liberty and freedom only to form that nation on religous persecution. They knew the nation was made up of people of all religions and sought very hard to make this a nation of the people, all of them not just one segment or the majority of them. "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

IF an individual solider wants to purchase a Trijicon scope and put it on his rifle, I have no issue with that. The govt putting a religious reference, no matter what religion, is not good.

There is only one govt of GOD and it isn't the US govt.

Personally I don't think the GOVT should celebrate religious "holidays" either. The celebration of great peoples of the govt such as Washington, Lincoln and King I can abide, the celebration of great events such as Independance Day I can understand. The religous days are for those of that faith to celebrate not for the govt to celebrate.

The individual people should be guided by their OWN beliefs be they in govt or out of it but they should also abide by the laws of the govt. When they do not believe the laws are just it shouldn't be judged based on a religous tenet but on the tenets of liberty and justice and freedom.

But those are my beliefs. YMMV

[ripley16]

The govt putting a religious reference, no matter what religion, is not good.

That's the whole point. The government didn't put the verse reference on the sight.

Now, you are saying the Government has the right and duty to force the sight maker to remove it from their product! Where does that power come from? Does the Trijicon Co. owner have freedom to do this or not...that is the question.

[recoilguy]

Maybe those who are not pleaseed with what the Gov't has supplied them should go buy a Zeiss or a Leapold as opposed to those who are not offended buying a Trijicon, which is already under contract and being supplied to all of our troops. Seems very simple when you apply the same process to the current situation. Just getting the most MPG from the current car as opposed to gettting a whole new car.

RCG

[Bawanna]

That's the whole point. The government didn't put the verse reference on the sight.

Now, you are saying the Government has the right and duty to force the sight maker to remove it from their product! Where does that power come from? Does the Trijicon Co. owner have freedom to do this or not...that is the question.

Well said. I've been trying to stay away from this thread cause it ain't even worth discussing. The religous reference has always been there, done by the original owner of Trijicon. (Not the government) I watch over 40 dept acogs and I've never noticed it till this came up. Since Trijicon is really the only game in town for most of this stuff I dont think Trijicon has anything to worry about.