No Guns Allowed

[muggsy]

In my wallet I carry a card that states on the front; I noticed your "No Guns Allowed" sign and will respect your wishes by taking my business elsewhere.

On the back of the card it states.

As a holder of a Concealed Carry Permit
I have never been convicted of a felony.
I have never been convicted of a crime of violence.
I have never been convicted of domestic violence.
I am not addicted to or use illegal drugs.
I am not under indictment or a fugitive from justice.
I have passed thorough State and Federal background investigations.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT YOUR OTHER CUSTOMERS?

[apheod]

in my wallet i carry about 10 of those.

slacker.

[Thunder71]

I walk on in, enjoy the meal with my family, and move on.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[apheod]

http://www.equalizerllc.com/documents/nogunnomoney_nostate.pdf

in case anyone wants to print out their own cards. can easily be printed out using avery 8876 business card sheets.

or you can buy 100 packs for about 16 bucks here.

http://www.zazzle.com/no_gun_no_money_business_card-240537187536453384

be sure to do the CCW community justice by being polite and smiling when you present the commies with this card.

[apheod]

I walk on in, enjoy the meal with my family, and move on.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

i refuse to support a business that doesn't support my rights.

[CJB]

Normally I disregard those signs.
Concealed is just that....its a non issue.

[apheod]

Normally I disregard those signs.
Concealed is just that....its a non issue.

agreed, but in some states, you are liable to answer for some big time felonies if you happen to be discovered carrying, or if god forbid, you have to defend yourself from some scumbag who targets that business thinking they've disarmed all law abiding citizens.

thats the 2nd largest reason i refuse to give those places my business... besides the fact that they don't deserve it, suppose you're a criminal, looking for a bank to rob. if you have the slightest bit of intelligence, you're going to look for a bank with a no gun sign, so that the only person in there armed, if any, will be an easily identifiable security guard you can make certain to disarm before continuing with your douchebaggery.

i would feel more at risk of needing to use my weapon in a place that forbade carrying.

[Thunder71]

i refuse to support a business that doesn't support my rights.

Do you send/receive mail? How far are you willing to go? I'm sure there are ingredients in foods you buy that are made by anti gun people. Parts for your car, gas, home products, etc.

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[CJB]

In Fl.... The signs are meaningless

[TheTman]

When Kansas passed it's concealed carry law, some anti-gun group sent most businesses and official looking letter and said that they HAD to post the anti-gun signs, so for awhile they were everywhere. Then word got out that it was a scam, and now, a few years later, you hardly ever see one, except for Dr.s offices and a few other businesses. Someone sued the state or something, about not allowing guns in government owned buildings that were leased to businesses and forced them to take the signs down where applicable. I hardly ever see the no gun sign anymore except when I go to the Dr. or bank or courthouse. I haven't seen one on a restaurant except for some of the rowdier bar/restaurant places in quite awhile. I've carried in a no-gun restaurant a few times, and since it was concealed well, no one ever questioned me. The law here is that if you do that, and they find out you are packing, they can ask you to leave. If you don't leave then they can call the police and then you probably lose your license. I was on my bike those times, and didn't want to leave a gun in my saddlebag (mine don't lock). And would rather take the chance on being asked to leave rather than leave a weapon where someone could steal it. I could technically pack in one of my Dr.s office, since the Pharmacy that is connected to it doesn't have the no gun sign on it's door, and ALL entrances must be marked or the no gun signs are invalid.

[apheod]

Do you send/receive mail? How far are you willing to go? I'm sure there are ingredients in foods you buy that are made by anti gun people. Parts for your car, gas, home products, etc.

Sent using Tapatalk, thanks for supporting it on this site.

far enough to turn around and drive someplace else to get what i need if i see a no gun sign on the door.

not far enough to spend hours researching every company involved with making my cat's flea medication i get off amazon.

[knkali]

wow I never see these signs in Calif except at bars that have a reputation for being rough and wouldnt be a place I would go to anyway. But in reality I dont really look for these signs either.

[Thunder71]

i refuse to support a business that doesn't support my rights.
Just wasn't sure what you meant based on this.


far enough to turn around and drive someplace else to get what i need if i see a no gun sign on the door.

not far enough to spend hours researching every company involved with making my cat's flea medication i get off amazon.
So basically as long as it's not an inconvenience to do business elsewhere. :D

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[apheod]

wow I never see these signs in Calif except at bars that have a reputation for being rough and wouldnt be a place I would go to anyway. But in reality I dont really look for these signs either.

i was under the impression that noone but celebrities, millionaires, and politicians were allowed to carry in california.


Just wasn't sure what you meant based on this.


So basically as long as it's not an inconvenience to do business elsewhere. :D

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it's an inconvenience sometimes to turn around and drive miles out of my way to patronize a business that doesn't have rules against me protecting myself. i don't mind. generally though, i will carry into their place of business to hand them a card and maybe have a short, friendly discussion on the matter.

i just don't take it to an unreasonable level. IMO, researching the politics of every company that has anything to do with everything i buy at the grocery store would be unreasonable. i have better things to do with my time, and theres so many unamerican or simply uneducated folks out there, you can't completely avoid them and still buy what you need everyday.

[kahrseye]

Except for schools, government bldgs, and courthouses I ignore gun restrictions. If any business or bank is getting robbed, my gun stays put unless and until I see or feel a person (myself included) would be harmed. I am not there to protect someone else's business.

[TriggerMan]

I haven't seen a 'No guns' sign anywhere this year.

[Ressom]

Ohio, the Heart of it all...




Private Property and the Workplace
Under the law, private employers may, but are not required to, prohibit the
presence of firearms on their property or in motor vehicles owned by the
employer. You should make yourself aware of your employer’s policies
before you go to work with a handgun. In addition, the owner or person in
control of private land or premises or person leasing land or premises from
the government may post a sign in a conspicuous location that prohibits
persons from carrying firearms or concealed handguns.
Ohio law provides that a person who knowingly violates a posted
prohibition of a parking lot or other parking facility is not guilty of criminal
trespass but is liable for a civil cause of action for trespass. Furthermore, a
landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant with a concealed carry license
from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on residential premises.


Signage

The law does not say precisely what language must be on the sign. At a

minimum, signs must be conspicuous and inform people that firearms and/
or concealed handguns are prohibited. However, the law suggests that the
prohibited locations post a sign that substantially says the following:
Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person
shall knowingly possess, have under his control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly
handgun or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.
An example of a standard warning sign approved for use on state buildings
appears below. If you see this sign, it means that you cannot bring your
concealed handgun inside. Businesses and persons wishing to post such
signs are strongly advised to consult their legal counsel for language, style,
format, and placement.





http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/2qed0k075sbfmsg/images/1-41294191e0.jpg

[Thunder71]

Let's put another spin on this...

Let's say you avoid a restaurant because they ban guns.

What if that restaurant gets supplies from pro gun sources? The chairs, tables, dinnerware, food, etc... right down to the construction of the building or who they pay rent to. Avoiding that place may keep your money from their pockets, but also from the pockets of the people who make it happen and support our right.

Kind of a double edge sword, no?

Just a thought...

[apheod]

again, i understand all of that.

but again, there are millions if not billions of ignorant people in this world who think guns are evil and without them, noone would ever be murdered.

what am i supposed to do, not spend money anywhere? live on the "fatta the land?"

i can make a small impact by letting business who ban CCH know that it's costing them business and possibly convincing them to change their policies. there are at least 4 businesses that i know of in my city that have changed their policies base entirely, or in part, by my discussion with them (other people having the same discussion with them also played a factor)

that improved my situation, and others, by allowing us more shopping options while carrying.

i don't really understand what point you're trying to make, that we should just disregard signs and carry everywhere, helping support businesses who apparently don't want us to be able to defend ourselves in their establishment? allowing ignorant people to remain ignorant?

[Thunder71]

"You can't fix stupid."

However I also don't feel the need to alter my life any more than I already do in order to carry in the first place. I think it all comes down to each individuals circumstances, local laws, etc. I have a family of 5, so my choice on where to eat is often quite outnumbered and if I made the choice to make a detour because a certain establishment had 'a sign' it would cause more grief than it was worth.

I just assume the sign is only for criminals, because they certainly wouldn't want to keep law abiding citizens out of their establishment. :)

I'm also fortunate in that Minnesota has very clear definitions for their legal signs, pretty ugly on purpose, and most places don't want to go through the hassle or deface their building to put up a proper sign, which makes them null and void. That said, even a legal sign can be bypassed, but serves as notice number 1, if you proceed and you are asked to leave or put your gun in your vehicle, that is notice number 2 and you must then decide what option you're going to take or go through the hassle of getting a $25 ticket AND having to leave.

It's not that I disagree with you, I just don't see it as making an impact. The cards/verbal communication may have an impact, but not going to those places in general would be an ant in a ditch.

That said, personal gratification of not going to such a place may rank quite high if given the opportunity to go elsewhere - and maybe that's what you're driving at here, I don't know.

[apheod]

it's not personal gratification in the sense that it's to make me feel good, or as though "i showed them!"

it's simply as i said, that i don't want to support their business if they won't support my rights.

[muggsy]

Normally I disregard those signs.
Concealed is just that....its a non issue.

In Ohio disregarding those signs is against the law and could cost you your concealed carry permit. When a business posts a no guns allowed sign it is sending an anti-gun message to the public. When I give my cards to the owners of the business I'm sending them a message. To me it is an issue.

[Longitude Zero]

Fortunately I live in a free state that there are far more signs saying your weapon is welcome than not. If there is no sign the weapon is welcome by fiat.

[muggsy]

it's not personal gratification in the sense that it's to make me feel good, or as though "i showed them!"

it's simply as i said, that i don't want to support their business if they won't support my rights.

Apheod, I believe that we have finally hit upon something with which we both agree. Good for you.

[muggsy]

Do you send/receive mail? How far are you willing to go? I'm sure there are ingredients in foods you buy that are made by anti gun people. Parts for your car, gas, home products, etc.

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You're right, Thunder. It's only a slight infringement of your second amendment right and it should be tolerated. Your life is just one of millions and isn't all that important to anyone. Besides, no one has ever been shot in a post office.

[Thunder71]

Wow.

I think I asked a fair question, never once insulted anyone's personal decisions.

Funny how exercising one right can be viewed as an infringement on another's.

[apheod]

it was a fair question, but i gave a fair answer the first time. the question shouldn't needed to be repeated and my motives for not patronizing their business so thoroughly questioned. it seemed as though you were being condescending, as if since i cannot completely avoid my money eventually getting into the hands of people who do not support the 2nd amendment, that i shouldn't even try to take my business elsewhere.

i apologize if i misread your posts.

[cgo99]

Not supporting business that don't allow guns is good and all but I try to go further by going out of my way to support those business that respect my rights.
Starbucks is a clear example, the anti-gun crowd has been organizing boycotts against them for allowing guns in their stores while the pro-gun side has not done as much.
I for one will pay a $4 cup of coffee just to support them, and to their credit Starbucks have stuck to their guns; pun intended.
Again without been fanatic or crazy why not make a little extra effort to help those business that openly support our rights and not just by default (not that there is anything wrong with that either).

[Thunder71]

it was a fair question, but i gave a fair answer the first time. the question shouldn't needed to be repeated and my motives for not patronizing their business so thoroughly questioned. it seemed as though you were being condescending, as if since i cannot completely avoid my money eventually getting into the hands of people who do not support the 2nd amendment, that i shouldn't even try to take my business elsewhere.

i apologize if i misread your posts.

My point was clear, just seeing what you meant by your response to the response of mine that you quoted.

There are some people who do go to greater extents to avoid a dollar going to anti-gunner hands, wasn't sure where you stood. You answered, then I had another thought that I brought up along similar lines, but not aimed at anyone in particular, perhaps you just took it that way. It's hard to convey thoughts through text, no apologies necessary - just a healthy discussion. :)

[apheod]

no harm, no foul.

yeah, i'm not fanatical about it or anything, mainly just not spending money in stores with signs.

i make some exceptions when companies as a whole make large contributions to anti gun efforts, or engage in similar unamerican activities. to this day, i refuse to own a ruger weapon because of bill ruger's hand in the 1994 AWB.

[Thunder71]

Yeah, just genuinely curious... Although I've seen people post about being very 'no exemptions' oriented toward not supporting anti-gun establishments, I have never engaged in conversation with one to find out just how much effort they put forth in their endeavor, I can imagine it being a rather daunting task!

I'm not talking about ordering a pizza from a gun friendly joint, I'm talking asking for a pizza and specifying who delivers it kind of attitude, lol.

Course, this is the Internet - there's probably a huge database somewhere of this information already. :nerd:

On a lighter note, I'll never be able to buy a Toyota Camry, simply because of the way my old neighbors said it 'Cam-Ray'... still bugs me. :31:

[tv_racin_fan]

Nearly every gun shop that I have ever been in has such a sign. I wonder how people buy guns who wont shop in a store with such a sign?

[kahrseye]

Nearly every gun shop that I have ever been in has such a sign. I wonder how people buy guns who wont shop in a store with such a sign?

I asked my LGS what the deal was with the no guns sign....he told me it's only for people without a CCP, if you have one the sign doesn't pertain to you. Imagine that.:nerd:

[tv_racin_fan]

LOL!!

Internet buddy stopped at the local shop one day. He had his handgun on him but not loaded since he intended to check out a holster for fit. Some local LEO stopped him and asked him was his handgun loaded. He had never even noticed the sign until I mentioned it to him. He was a bit perplexed that a gun shop would have such a sign. I simply pointed out that not everyone who has a handgun would even think to make sure it was not loaded before going in to check out a holster for fit. That would not be a good thing at this particular shop as nearly every clerk there is armed....

I generally take the holster I am interested over to one handgun counter or another and ask if I can use one of their handguns to check the fit... The one time I had thought I might want to trade in a revolver I had it in a case and unloaded.

My son and I used to unload before going in.. he even had his slide locked back but they mentioned that they would appreciate if he covered it up just the same. Now we just make sure we are covered up well and shop away. (interesting to note that a sister store has no such sign, I wonder if that will change...)

[apheod]

i've never seen a gun store with a no CCH sign, but wouldn't shop there or use their range if they did, as that's a ridiculous policy. obviously it only applies to legal citizens, as anyone intending to take a gun in there to do harm is going to disregard the sign. if they say it only applies to those without CCH licenses... the individual carrying probably already knows that it's highly illegal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit anyway, even if they have no ill intentions, and again, the sign is unlikely to deter them.

i buy my guns online or from private sales anyway.

[TriggerMan]

Nearly every gun shop that I have ever been in has such a sign. I wonder how people buy guns who wont shop in a store with such a sign?The half dozen shops in Metro Detroit suburbs I have patronized all ask that guns brought in for service or to fit a holster, come in unloaded and in a case. They warn CC folks to keep their pistols holstered and concealed. A couple of places are anti open carry. I avoid them and take my money elsewhere.

[CJB]

I understand that some locales might require you to refrain from carrying a weapon, if the business posts a suitable sign in accordance to all legal parameters.

Here in Florida - we have no such nonsense.

Florida law - smartly - does not make such provisions, one of the few things they did right. If a store has a "no guns" sign, the most they can do is ask you to leave. Thats it. If you dont leave, it can be tresspass... so leave. But, its very unlikely to happen - because they want your money, which wont get spent if you're not there.

As for the card thing, the more I consider and contemplate it, I find it a bad, and even foolish endeavor.

First off, nobody is going to change their policy based on a card being given to them, or their employee.

Further, you've now identified yourself as a weapons owner, and carrier. This may make you subject to some unexpected furtherance of your actions, in the way of unwanted consequences, from unscrupulous employees. Hell, they steal your credit card stuff... why not divulge that you carry, so they or some half witted cohort can make a (foolhardy) attempt to rid you of your excess weapons....

Best to not advertise. Best to just no go to places if you feel strongly about their signs. I personally dont give a rats rosette, and have never had a problem. Ever, since... what 1991 or 1993 was it? Not one single problem. I dont say anything, and I go about my business or pleasure, and thats it.

[Thunder71]

Well said.

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[apheod]

First off, nobody is going to change their policy based on a card being given to them, or their employee.

Further, you've now identified yourself as a weapons owner, and carrier. This may make you subject to some unexpected furtherance of your actions, in the way of unwanted consequences, from unscrupulous employees. Hell, they steal your credit card stuff... why not divulge that you carry, so they or some half witted cohort can make a (foolhardy) attempt to rid you of your excess weapons....

i personally know of at least 4 establishments who took their signs down as a result of my own (in some case aided by other customers) discussions with management. i don't just hand them the card and walk out, i politely ask to speak with a manager, and have a brief, polite conversation about their policy, and leave them with a card. now, i dont go around doing this everywhere that has a sign, just the places that i would do business at if the sign was removed.

as far as the managers targetting me for robbery after a conversation, assuming they somehow got my information and found out where i lived... breaking into the house of a guy shooting in the IDPA expert division who carries at all times, around the house even, is not likely to end well for them.

[ltxi]

Well said.

....x2

[jocko]

KEEP IT hidden from view and those signs will not mean jack sh-t. Ur carrying for your protection and not as a security guard. There IMO is just not a good reason to expose ur weapon in public

Might be for some a chicken sh-t attitude but if I was in a restaurant and some BG came in and robbed the clerk at the cash register, I would just watch it all go down and not try to be John Wayne or Dirty Harry. When the BG starts shooting up the damn place, then indeed it is a whole new ball game:third:

Most robbers are just that, "there to rob" and move on.

[Mr_D]

Most robbers are just that, "there to rob" and move on.
Unless they start taking everyone into the freezer or back room, then you may have to act.

[tv_racin_fan]

To each his own I suppose. I got no qualm with a gun shop having a no loaded firearms allowed sign. Far to often some kat thinks he has a clue and then he shoots the ceiling or the floor trying to see if this holster fits his handgun.

Got no qualms with that same policy at the range we frequent. Course I generally have my revolver in my pocket... They don't press the issue they just don't want everyone dragging out loaded handguns in the store. The more people handle loaded firearms the more often something goes wrong.

My wife was not happy with her shooting on one range trip. I had her set her handgun down and look at the range. There are holes all over the place, ceiling, target holders, even the partition in that particular stall had a hole in it. She was on paper.. not in the bullseye mind you but on paper. After a quick look around she felt much better. Then with a tiny bit of instruction her next magazine was in the black.

[MO_Soldier]

You're right, Thunder. It's only a slight infringement of your second amendment right and it should be tolerated. Your life is just one of millions and isn't all that important to anyone. Besides, no one has ever been shot in a post office.

Really?!?
Not one single person has called you out on this? lol
Haven't you ever heard of "going postal"? Where do you think that came from? :cool:

[TriggerMan]

Really?!?
Not one single person has called you out on this? lol
Haven't you ever heard of "going postal"? Where do you think that came from? :cool:Your sarcasm detector needs a new battery. ;)

[TriggerMan]

no harm, no foul.

yeah, i'm not fanatical about it or anything, mainly just not spending money in stores with signs.

i make some exceptions when companies as a whole make large contributions to anti gun efforts, or engage in similar unamerican activities. to this day, i refuse to own a ruger weapon because of bill ruger's hand in the 1994 AWB.Would Bill Ruger's death make you revisit your policy? He's been dead several years.

[jocko]

To each his own I suppose. I got no qualm with a gun shop having a no loaded firearms allowed sign. Far to often some kat thinks he has a clue and then he shoots the ceiling or the floor trying to see if this holster fits his handgun.

Got no qualms with that same policy at the range we frequent. Course I generally have my revolver in my pocket... They don't press the issue they just don't want everyone dragging out loaded handguns in the store. The more people handle loaded firearms the more often something goes wrong.

My wife was not happy with her shooting on one range trip. I had her set her handgun down and look at the range. There are holes all over the place, ceiling, target holders, even the partition in that particular stall had a hole in it. She was on paper.. not in the bullseye mind you but on paper. After a quick look around she felt much better. Then with a tiny bit of instruction her next magazine was in the black.

is normally a good reason why those signs are posted in those two places, asu well stated."holes all over the place"
some people should now own guns

[muggsy]

Let's put another spin on this...

Let's say you avoid a restaurant because they ban guns.

What if that restaurant gets supplies from pro gun sources? The chairs, tables, dinnerware, food, etc... right down to the construction of the building or who they pay rent to. Avoiding that place may keep your money from their pockets, but also from the pockets of the people who make it happen and support our right.

Kind of a double edge sword, no?

Just a thought...

That's really a reach. I don't know or care where a restaurant gets it's supplies. I only know that the restaurant is anti-gun. A progun restaurant supplier shouldn't have an anti gun the restaurant as a customer.

[muggsy]

Really?!?
Not one single person has called you out on this? lol
Haven't you ever heard of "going postal"? Where do you think that came from? :cool:

My comment was tongue in cheek. Try to keep pace. :)

[muggsy]

KEEP IT hidden from view and those signs will not mean jack sh-t. Ur carrying for your protection and not as a security guard. There IMO is just not a good reason to expose ur weapon in public

Might be for some a chicken sh-t attitude but if I was in a restaurant and some BG came in and robbed the clerk at the cash register, I would just watch it all go down and not try to be John Wayne or Dirty Harry. When the BG starts shooting up the damn place, then indeed it is a whole new ball game:third:

Most robbers are just that, "there to rob" and move on.

Jocko, you are a bit out of touch. Some robbers herd everyone into a back room and kill them execution style. The theory is no witnesses, no crime.

[muggsy]

I think that it would be in the best interests of all law abiding citizens that the signs portraying all CCW permit holders as miscreants be removed. I also believe as our founding fathers believed that an armed populous is a desirable thing. Why should any of us be made to feel like second class citizens for exercising our second amendment right?

[apheod]

To each his own I suppose. I got no qualm with a gun shop having a no loaded firearms allowed sign. Far to often some kat thinks he has a clue and then he shoots the ceiling or the floor trying to see if this holster fits his handgun.

Got no qualms with that same policy at the range we frequent. Course I generally have my revolver in my pocket... They don't press the issue they just don't want everyone dragging out loaded handguns in the store. The more people handle loaded firearms the more often something goes wrong.

i guess i misunderstood a bit here, i'm not sure exactly what sign you mean. in this state, the silhouette of the beretta 92fs with the circle and line through it means no licensed concealed carry, and (although most posting that sign probably are unaware) has no bearing on open carry. in wichita, open carry must be done unloaded, and you're still likely to have police show up and put you face down on the ground at gunpoint.

i would certainly understand a policy in a gunstore of not having jackasses walk in with a gun in their hand and requiring unlicenced folks to bring their weapons in unloaded. a very reasonable policy, i've seen how stupid some of the people at the range are. i watched a uniformed female police officer point her loaded glock at her friend as she gestured with her hands while explaining gun safety to her, out on the firing line. i stepped over and told her to keep her ******* weapon pointed downrange before she killed someone. i was pretty pissed, i was on the other side of her friend when i noticed her, and she was waving it in my direction also. twice in the last month, at our local ranges, people have rented guns and blown their heads off, the last one, while over 20 people were present including a 9 year old.

the only time i've removed my CCW weapon (my primary, anyway ;) ) at a gunstore, was to try a laser/light combo on the rail. they didn't have that model in the case for me to try. i informed them of my intention first, stepped out onto the range to unload, and discreetly brought it back out.

i DO have a problem however, with a gunstore which explicitly bans licensed concealed carry in their stores. that what was i was calling a ridiculous policy.


Would Bill Ruger's death make you revisit your policy? He's been dead several years.

i was aware he's passed. i hold grudges ;)

besides, i have no need for a ruger. not a fan of their semi-autos (their .22s are nice, but i only shoot service caliber handguns) or mini-14s, and if i was to buy a revolver, i'd go smith & wesson, even though i do respect the quality of ruger revolvers.

[tv_racin_fan]

How does a gun store know who is and who isn't licensed and who is safe with a loaded handgun? I find it better to ask all to not come in loaded and ready than to try to attempt to discerne who is and who isn't safe with a loaded firearm. The local shops do not explicitly ban licensed carry they explicitly ban ANY carry other than employees, seems reasonable to me and I believe under the circumstances I would do the same.

In my state the sign has not the weight of law. All a shop owner can do is ask that I leave should he find that I am armed against his wishes.

In my opinion HIS property rights over take my second amendment rights. I do however reserve the right to not visit his property. The same as MY property is MINE and I have the right to decide who can and who will not be allowed to be armed on MY property.

[Longitude Zero]

In my opinion HIS property rights over take my second amendment rights. I do however reserve the right to not visit his property. The same as MY property is MINE and I have the right to decide who can and who will not be allowed to be armed on MY property.

This is the key to the discussion. The rights of the property owner ALWAYS trump the rights of guests/visitors, that is a simple fact of life far too many folks forget or avoid discussing. Also I have the right avoid entry onto your property if I cannot bring my weapon, another fact of life.

[apheod]

if a licensed carrier is in the shop with a loaded gun then nobody should see it, and it should be no issue. i suppose the same remains true if someone without a license wants to conceal a loaded weapon in there, but if they're already breaking the law by doing so, they don't care about the sign.

i agree it's his right as a business owner to enforce whatever rules he wants to. if i was somehow outed in a gun store as packing, and asked to leave even after proving i have a CCH, i would leave, and never return.

again, none of my local gun shops/ranges are posted. none of them allow customers to pull out their personal handguns in the store. except in special cases, as i stated above where i checked with them first, stepped out onto the range and cleared my weapon, reconcealed to come up to the counter, then pulled it out, showed clear, and tried the laser/light on my rail. i imagine they would either ban, or highly frown on customers open carrying.

they all offer CCH training, and all of their clerks open carry. if these particular businesses were to ban legal concealed carry on their premises, i would consider that their right, however ridiculous i might find it, and not give them my business.

i am not one of the diehards who thinks the 2nd amendment means that i should be able to walk around walmart, ar-15 in hand, shotgun slung on my pack, while open carrying 2 handguns.

[apheod]

in fact, i couldn't find the exact sign, ours says "criminals beware, CCH permit holders welcome here" with a green gun, but the local gun shops post similar signs to this.

http://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/321579_2484117584403_1296515489_2912819_1810953806 _n.jpg

[tv_racin_fan]

if a licensed carrier is in the shop with a loaded gun then nobody should see it, and it should be no issue. i suppose the same remains true if someone without a license wants to conceal a loaded weapon in there, but if they're already breaking the law by doing so, they don't care about the sign.

i agree it's his right as a business owner to enforce whatever rules he wants to. if i was somehow outed in a gun store as packing, and asked to leave even after proving i have a CCH, i would leave, and never return.

again, none of my local gun shops/ranges are posted. none of them allow customers to pull out their personal handguns in the store. except in special cases, as i stated above where i checked with them first, stepped out onto the range and cleared my weapon, reconcealed to come up to the counter, then pulled it out, showed clear, and tried the laser/light on my rail. i imagine they would either ban, or highly frown on customers open carrying.

they all offer CCH training, and all of their clerks open carry. if these particular businesses were to ban legal concealed carry on their premises, i would consider that their right, however ridiculous i might find it, and not give them my business.

i am not one of the diehards who thinks the 2nd amendment means that i should be able to walk around walmart, ar-15 in hand, shotgun slung on my pack, while open carrying 2 handguns.

Why should no one see it and why should it not be an issue? I am perfectly within my right and the law to open carry my handgun anywhere anyone can concealed carry. The bias against open carry is silly and only serves to pit gun owner against gun owner and is just the thing the anti gunners need to show those on the fence how reasonable they are trying to be. (Except anti gunners need nothing) They did however pit hunters against gun owners with the assault weapons ban and the magazine limit, many hunters see no need for a so called assault weapon or for more than 4 or 5 rounds in a magazine. We GUN owners best learn to stick together even when we do not agree with the other gun owners choice of carry style or weapon or magazine size. The sheeple forget that not so many years ago the chosen assault rifle was a single shot flintlock and the founding fathers knew that to restrict the people vis a vis magazine size or caliber or style of firearm was folly in the face of tyranny.

:32:

[Thunder71]

^ well said.

I ran a poll on another forum and was shocked to see roughly 5% of the people who voted would SUPPORT a law that removed the right to open carry, and these were gun owners/carriers.

If divided we stand, united we'll fall.

[apheod]

i agree open carry should be an accepted right, and it currently isnt widely accepted because of decades of demonization of firearms.

i have no problem with it, other than the fact that it leaves you at a tactical disadvantage. if you are open carrying, and someone comes into a store, bank, wherever, armed and looking for trouble, you make yourself a target. if they see you before you see them, they're likely to take you out first, if you being armed doesn't make them turn around and leave.

don't be this guy.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/4/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

the only other issue i currently have with it, is that like it or not, it frightens the sheeple and draws attention to the fact that it is legal. it's more likely to scare liberals and make them demand their legislatures remove this right from us, IMHO. i feel like gun rights are on thin ice as it is, with something of a "wait and see how this pans out" strategy being given to widely adopting legalized concealed carry after decades of it being highly illegal to have the means to defend yourself against the criminal element.

i'm also not a big fan of the clowns who walk around with rolling cameras looking to provoke police encounters while open carrying so they can post it up on youtube.

don't take any of this as an attack on your right to open carry.

[Bawanna]

i agree open carry should be an accepted right, and it currently isnt widely accepted because of decades of demonization of firearms.

i have no problem with it, other than the fact that it leaves you at a tactical disadvantage. if you are open carrying, and someone comes into a store, bank, wherever, armed and looking for trouble, you make yourself a target. if they see you before you see them, they're likely to take you out first, if you being armed doesn't make them turn around and leave.

don't be this guy.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/4/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

the only other issue i currently have with it, is that like it or not, it frightens the sheeple and draws attention to the fact that it is legal. it's more likely to scare liberals and make them demand their legislatures remove this right from us, IMHO. i feel like gun rights are on thin ice as it is, with something of a "wait and see how this pans out" strategy being given to widely adopting legalized concealed carry after decades of it being highly illegal to have the means to defend yourself against the criminal element.

i'm also not a big fan of the clowns who walk around with rolling cameras looking to provoke police encounters while open carrying so they can post it up on youtube.

don't take any of this as an attack on your right to open carry.

We have a couple of the rolling camera stooges working our town the last couple weeks. There was a comment in the paper yesterday from one of the guys that called in. He carries a gun all the time but was still concerned and the other dozen callers were alarmed. We apparently passed their test and found ourselves on OpenCarry.com the next day but your exactly right. The beauty of open carry for me is if I have a wardrobe fuax pas, no biggy. Take away open carry which they certainly will do if the recording commando's continue and that luxury will go away.
Incidently these clowns had an AR15 and a shotgun on their backs and both had drop leg holsters, and generally dirt bag looking types.
If they were approaching me I would definitely cross to the other side of the street or seek cover.
Our detectives considered setting up a deal where next time we get a call all the plain clothes folks will get ahead of the recording commandos and just start walking around with their guns in plain view, even take me along if time allows. Just to make them wonder what the heck is going on. I like the idea.

[jocko]

only take one rotten apple in the barrel to fokk gun owners up. Most law abiding ccdw people do carry concealed. just makes good sense, Certainly less public conflict to, why stir the pot if ur not eating any of it????

I was armed robbed many years ago in my gun business, I always wondered if I would have been here today had I open carried a gun as two guys with guns pointed at u, tells me I am at a big disadvantage. They got the money and went on their way, I got a soiled pair of shorts and thank God for only that.To many rambos for me. If u an't been there done that, u have no clue.

These camera rolling stooges do far more damage than we can ever imagine. That is the film footage the anti gun people love to have. Stastics has shown that mose BG do't want a conflict with an armed person, there are just to many unarmed civilians out there so why chance it.

[tv_racin_fan]

^ well said.

I ran a poll on another forum and was shocked to see roughly 5% of the people who voted would SUPPORT a law that removed the right to open carry, and these were gun owners/carriers.

If divided we stand, united we'll fall.

That isn't surprising to me at all sir.

[tv_racin_fan]

That is the trouble, far to many gun owners wont stand up for their own rights and in fact they begrudge ME standing my ground for THEIR rights.

Hey it aint no biggie to me sir. I prefer FLINTLOCKS myself and if YOU guys have YOUR way and the anti gunners are successful in limiting US to the self same weapons that were prevelent at the time of the ratification of the US Constitution well so be it. While you sit home an cry that your rights have been stolen from you I will open carry a brace of flintlocks and smile doing so.

[apheod]

don't get your panties in a bunch, noone is begrudging you for choosing to open carry. we're simply stating that you could cause unintended consequences by scaring the sheeple, and that you could conceivably make yourself a target, as the guy in the news story i posted did.

granted, he should have turned and ran after they took his weapon rather than trying to chase them around the store, and he might have lived, but things happen in the blink of an eye. i've never had a gun pointed at me, but i have had to draw on someone i caught breaking into my house, so i know what it is to be in a high stress situation where decisions made in the blink of an eye can affect your entire life. who's to say even knowing what a bad idea it is, i might not try and chase down some scum who somehow snatched my concealed weapon.

that poor bastard lost his life, and had he been carrying concealed, he probably would have made it out of their alive with his weapon remaining holstered, and the business's losses would have been insured.

[Thunder71]

That's one incident.

What I wonder about are the following, which we'll probably never know:

1. How often are concealed carriers at a disadvantage because their firearm is covered, and as such, were slower to the draw than had they open carried.

2. How many times has an open carrier deterred a crime because the criminal saw someone had a weapon.

3. Of the 'sheeple', how many are genuinely concerned about the presence of a firearm vs those who just assume it must be some sort of LEO if they are carrying a gun.

I'm not convinced the arguments against open carry are valid... not that they don't happen, but I don't see them as a huge point against open carry.

[Bawanna]

The law aside, open carry has been basically socially unacceptable for so long that it will be extremely difficult to condition the masses to find it acceptable again. I'm a gun guy and when I see someone open carrying I go on high alert myself.
The part that gets me is everyone who wants to exercise their right has to wear fatigues and have a video camera around his neck and walk around with an M16 and a drop leg holster to ram their rights down the publics throat. This is not suttle.
While I support the open carry right, I don't think that's a positive way to publicize it. I think it's one of those cases where leaving it alone might work better.
Even if you don't open carry, you still have the right. Put enough fear or create enough concern and they will certainly take that right away. I'd just as soon keep it on the books and not do it on purpose rather than do it and have it taken away.
I'm not going back to flintlocks, ain't gonna happen.

My ugly meter is starting to fluctuate some. I'm being flexible here and not choosing sides but I see this thread heading for the has been file shortly.

[tv_racin_fan]

don't get your panties in a bunch, noone is begrudging you for choosing to open carry.

Actually you are, and you aint alone...

we're simply stating that you could cause unintended consequences by scaring the sheeple, and that you could conceivably make yourself a target, as the guy in the news story i posted did.

We cause unintended consequnces every day just by being. You going to cease to be just because you don't want to cause any unintended consequences? I think not.

granted, he should have turned and ran after they took his weapon rather than trying to chase them around the store, and he might have lived, but things happen in the blink of an eye. i've never had a gun pointed at me, but i have had to draw on someone i caught breaking into my house, so i know what it is to be in a high stress situation where decisions made in the blink of an eye can affect your entire life. who's to say even knowing what a bad idea it is, i might not try and chase down some scum who somehow snatched my concealed weapon.

that poor bastard lost his life, and had he been carrying concealed, he probably would have made it out of their alive with his weapon remaining holstered, and the business's losses would have been insured.

I am fully aware I could possibly make myself a target while open carrying. I am also fully aware that I could possibly prevent a crime just by being somewhere with a handgun that anyone can see. 2 instances in several years where apparently someone open carrying other than LEO or some other security was targetted. ANY clue how many times someone open carrying actually deterred a crime? You might google More Guns Less Crime those stats may be out there, then again they may not since many times the person who was open carrying had no clue a crime was about to go down or that the intended criminal saw his firearm and decided this was not the time nor the place for his intended crime. A couple good ole boys out near Kennesaw GA didn't know they was deterrin crime, they was just eatin breakfast... yet that is apparently exactly what they did according to the very criminals they deterred. Who knows mayhaps I have done the same thing while eatin breakfast with my handgun on my side... might have even done so at dinner whilst I was enjoyin a steak.

By the way how do you know what consequences those boys on youtube had in mind when they videoed the responces to their open carry? Perhaps their intent was just to get a few minutes of "fame" on youtube. Perhaps their intent was to get their plight out there to the masses (IE those guys open carrying unloaded firearms in California). Perhaps getting the legislature to pass a law outlawing open carry was their intent since it does illustrate their plight in not being able to get a permit in the may issue areas. What danger to the masses was an unloaded firearm anyway? IF the masses are scared by UNLOADED firearms and they are aware that there are people out here with LOADED firearms hidden amongst them what exactly do you think they are communicating to their representatives concerning that "right"? Do you think the Brady Bunch just now realised that?

[tv_racin_fan]

Bawanna sir you can make this a has been at any time you see fit. The argument aint going anywhere.

And just for the record it aint socially unacceptable everywhere. It might be where you are but that don't mean it is everywhere.

The good folk at the Waffle House serve me breakfast with nary a sideways glance that I am aware of. The good folk at AppleBees aint made nary a face either. Interestin to note that the good folk at the local gun shop asked my son to cover his up even tho the slide was locked back...

[apheod]

That's one incident.

which i'm aware of because it happened just a few weeks ago. i'm sure it's happened before. i know of another incident in which an open carrier out for a walk was robbed at gunpoint for his weapon.

What I wonder about are the following, which we'll probably never know:

1. How often are concealed carriers at a disadvantage because their firearm is covered, and as such, were slower to the draw than had they open carried.

depends on their level of training. me, i never train from an open carry rig. i train from an IWB rig @ 4 o'clock, under an untucked t-shirt. from the time i hear the buzzer, my draw stroke and putting the 2nd round of a 3 inch doubletap on target @ 10 yards takes me 1.2 seconds on average. this is based on an average of the roughly 30 draws i have analyzed of myself on video shooting IDPA stages. i doubt i would be much, if any faster from an open carry rig.

if we're talking about pocket carry, and i sense danger beforehand and have time to casually place my hands in my pockets, completing half my draw stroke, i can get that under a second with my pm9 coming out of a desantis superfly from a jean pocket. granted, it's slightly less accurate than shooting with my hk p2000 or my k9.

typcally i carry my primary @ 4 o'clock with the pm9 in my right front pocket as a backup to allow for either type of draw.

i doubt many criminals would have the drop on me unless they had their weapon already aimed at me before i saw them.

2. How many times has an open carrier deterred a crime because the criminal saw someone had a weapon.

impossible to tell, i'm sure it happens though.

3. Of the 'sheeple', how many are genuinely concerned about the presence of a firearm vs those who just assume it must be some sort of LEO if they are carrying a gun.

i would assume more than half.

I'm not convinced the arguments against open carry are valid... not that they don't happen, but I don't see them as a huge point against open carry.

my main point is that in the event you need to use your firearm in self defense, assuming you are well trained, you have a clear advantage in the element of surprise. surprise is one of, if not the most important factor in warfare. a criminal who sees a weapon on someone and decides to proceed with their criminal actions anyway, has time to mentally prepare himself for combat, and knows who he needs to target first.

one who falsely thinks he's got the drop on everyone, feeling as though he has the situation firmly under control, and all of the sudden is taking fire, or has been shot by an unknown party, is at a huge disadvantage to the criminal in the first scenario.

i say this knowing full well that the legal gun carrier is almost always at a disadvantage, as you have to be the reactor, and you are likely going to be experiencing the same level of shock of having to go from going about your normal daily business, to taking a person's life in a matter of seconds.

please, don't take any of what i'm saying as an attack on how you choose to carry. again, i support those who open carry responsibly, (ESPECIALLY as done in wisconsin before they had CCH. illinois does not allow open carry :() and hope that it will become more acceptable in years to come.

we're all on the same side here :cool:

[Thunder71]

No offense here, I don't typically open carry myself but do enjoy being able to do so when I feel like it.

[Bawanna]

Bawanna sir you can make this a has been at any time you see fit. The argument aint going anywhere.

And just for the record it aint socially unacceptable everywhere. It might be where you are but that don't mean it is everywhere.

The good folk at the Waffle House serve me breakfast with nary a sideways glance that I am aware of. The good folk at AppleBees aint made nary a face either. Interestin to note that the good folk at the local gun shop asked my son to cover his up even tho the slide was locked back...

Make no mistake, I support open carry and like the option although I never do. The gun shop situation is a safety issue, not a open carry or concealed carry situation. They don't want no accidents. Their insurance I'm sure is ridiculous and would be worse with an accident.

Here in Washington, open carry is legal, we let the video commandos go 3 times now, so I guess they think we're ok. But you never hardly ever see it.
Carrying the way I do a pistol on my hip, double mag pouch on the off side I just might be able to get around without much fanfare, someone would undoubtedly call in eventually and the police have to respond. They don't have the choice or the option to just say probably video commandos and not go. Guys walking down main street with rifles slung and drop leg holsters are gonna get called on every time. That's what they want. Maybe they are anti gunners looking for fuel but I doubt it.

I have no intention of closing this thread based on the subject matter. Nor would I close it because everyone doesn't agree with me. Won't happen. I will close it based on ugly and uncivil which seems to pop up every time open carry or most politics are discussed.

[HDoc]

Let's put another spin on this...

Let's say you avoid a restaurant because they ban guns.

What if that restaurant gets supplies from pro gun sources? The chairs, tables, dinnerware, food, etc... right down to the construction of the building or who they pay rent to. Avoiding that place may keep your money from their pockets, but also from the pockets of the people who make it happen and support our right.
..

So does the restaurant he now goes to that does allows CCW. It's a closed system one loses, another gains.

[ltxi]

My LGS/Range has a posted no loaded guns policy. Doesn't take much in the way of people watching to appreciate why. They know me, I ignore it, they don't care. But they also know I don't carry loaded Glocks rattling around loose in a range bag full of "stuff". Saw one moron good riddance 86'd from the place over that one.

[RodeoX]

Where I live many businesses have put up "no guns" signs. I support their right to make such a rule. But as with many posters here, they forfeit my patronage.
Recently a funny thing happened. I went to a restaurant near my house where I eat regularly. They know me there as a big tipper and tend to usher me to a good table as soon as I come in. As I was being greeted and whisked away, I noticed they had put up a sign.
When I explained that I can't enter because I carry and that I will need to eat elsewhere, the manager looked horrified. He said; "Don't worry about it." then he took down the sign!
Dinner was great and so was their tip.
It reminded me that these decisions are sometimes made at a very low level and that such rules can be flexible.

[TriggerMan]

Where I live many businesses have put up "no guns" signs. I support their right to make such a rule. But as with many posters here, they forfeit my patronage.
Recently a funny thing happened. I went to a restaurant near my house where I eat regularly. They know me there as a big tipper and tend to usher me to a good table as soon as I come in. As I was being greeted and whisked away, I noticed they had put up a sign.
When I explained that I can't enter because I carry and that I will need to eat elsewhere, the manager looked horrified. He said; "Don't worry about it." then he took down the sign!
Dinner was great and so was their tip.
It reminded me that these decisions are sometimes made at a very low level and that such rules can be flexible.Damn, you ARE a good customer.

[CJB]

Glad I dont live in OH !!

[O'Dell]

Several years ago I went into a Waffle House on Roswell Road in Sandy Springs, and noticed a 'no guns' sign on the wall over the grill. I wasn't carrying, but I asked to speak to the manager. He said that the sign was his idea, and didn't come from Corporate, which I already knew. I told him that by displaying the sign, he was assuming the responsibility for the safety of me and all his customers by not allowing us the opportunity to defend ourselves. I also advised him to consult with the WH legal department to get their view on 'his' sign. I went back a week later and the sign was gone.