P45 wont extract unfired round?

[rkammer]

I bought this used P45 last week and have fired about 150 rounds with it without any problems. So, I loaded it with my favorite 45 ACP defense ammo, the Federal HST 230gr (standard pressure) stuff which it also fires without any problems.

Today, I wanted to unload the pistol to go to the range and shoot some FMJ and the pistol would not extract the unfired round from the chamber. When I rack the slide, the round tries to come out but, catches on the front of the ejection port while still being held by the extractor. The only way I could extract the unfired round was to carefully hold the slide back and knock the round down through the magazine well. I tried this with several types of ammo and the only ones that will extract normally are some of my 200 gr SWC reloads and the Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. I didn't have any 230 FMJ to try it with.

I still have my CW45 (haven't sold it yet) and it will extract any unfired round I put in it without any problems. So, what are the possibilities here? Is this a known issue? :(

On a separate note, is there a thread that tells me how to install a new slide lock spring in this gun? I bought a new one (and a new recoil spring) because the old one sticks out and pokes my thumb whenever I try to remove the slide.

I can post photos of the above issues if needed.

[Bawanna]

The key to ejecting loaded rounds is briskly. Really rack that thing and let the ejector do its thing. They seem to do better after breaking in good. Heard of this several times.

In the tech section theres a post by GB about I think CW45 and other poly fixes. It has some good pics on replacing that spring.

Careful tightening, easy to strip the polymer.

[rkammer]

The key to ejecting loaded rounds is briskly. Really rack that thing and let the ejector do its thing. They seem to do better after breaking in good. Heard of this several times.

In the tech section theres a post by GB about I think CW45 and other poly fixes. It has some good pics on replacing that spring.

Careful tightening, easy to strip the polymer.

Thanks, Bawanna. I'll check out the tech section. Well, I've tried to rack the slide as fast as this old boy can rack and still can't get a loaded round out. This P45 is about 5 years old so, I'm pretty sure it's broken in. My CW45 that will eject any loaded round is still pretty new with only about 300 rounds down the pipe.

The only other thing that looks different between the CW45 and the P45 is that the ejector on the P45 isn't quite flush with the slide while the CW45 ejector is perfectly flush. i.e. you can feel the ejector if you run your finger down the slide (maybe 3-5 thousands or so). But the gun ejects cases fine under normal operation.

[Bawanna]

Thanks, Bawanna. I'll check out the tech section. Well, I've tried to rack the slide as fast as this old boy can rack and still can't get a loaded round out. This P45 is about 5 years old so, I'm pretty sure it's broken in. My CW45 that will eject any loaded round is still pretty new with only about 300 rounds down the pipe.

The only other thing that looks different between the CW45 and the P45 is that the ejector on the P45 isn't quite flush with the slide while the CW45 ejector is perfectly flush. i.e. you can feel the ejector if you run your finger down the slide (maybe 3-5 thousands or so). But the gun ejects cases fine under normal operation.

That would be the extractor you feel along the slide. I get them mixed up all the time too. I wonder if that needs cleaning? Might be a little junk behind it but if its shooting good its probably ok.

Only other thought and I'm sure your already doing it is to angle the gun either direction so gravity helps guide the round out.

[rkammer]

That would be the extractor you feel along the slide. I get them mixed up all the time too. I wonder if that needs cleaning? Might be a little junk behind it but if its shooting good its probably ok.

Only other thought and I'm sure your already doing it is to angle the gun either direction so gravity helps guide the round out.

Extractor, Extractor, Extractor. Got it! I think I'll do a detail strip of the slide and clean out the extractor area really good. I'm stumped at this one.

[rkammer]

Here are photos of the problem. No matter how hard or how fast I pull on the slide, I can't eject an unfired Federal HST 230 gr unfired round. It will eject my reloads of 200gr LSWC and Winchester Ranger T 230gr fine however.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Raykamm/Guns/IMG_2143.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Raykamm/Guns/IMG_2142.jpg

[gb6491]

Hey Ray,
Have you tried putting the barrel of your CW45 in the P45 to see if the ammo will eject? If it does eject it might just be a matter of polishing/removing some material from the hood of the P45 barrel to provide extra clearance. If it were mine, I think I would try breaking/polishing the lower edge of the barrel hood YMMV.
http://i42.tinypic.com/25ppb7k.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[Ikeo74]

That is the cleanest used gun I have seen. Before you re-work the gun ejection port check the OAL of your reloads. Measure and post the length. I think you can shorten the bullet and correct the problem but to verify that I would like to know what the OAL is now. Kahr guns have a short chamber and the bullet may be sticking in the rifleings because of length. When you try to eject and unfired round it may be pulling the bullet of the case just enough to make it drag on the barrel hood. Check that and post back.

[rkammer]

Hey Ray,
Have you tried putting the barrel of your CW45 in the P45 to see if the ammo will eject? If it does eject it might just be a matter of polishing/removing some material from the hood of the P45 barrel to provide extra clearance. If it were mine, I think I would try breaking/polishing the lower edge of the barrel hood YMMV.
http://i42.tinypic.com/25ppb7k.jpg
Regards,
Greg

Thanks, Greg. And, now the plot thickens! I remembered seeing the relief cut from your photos on my CW45 barrel but, not on the P45 barrel. The CW45 was new two months ago and the P45 was made in late 2005. Could it be that the P45 barrels now have the relief cut? (The CW45 barrel is on the left and the P45 on the right)

I've also measured the 4 rounds I've been testing with. My CW45 will eject any of the 4 cleanly. The P45 will eject 3 of the 4 (not as cleanly) with only the Federal HST 230gr JHP being the one that locks up in the port.

I don't think it's related to OAL because the HST is one of the two shortest rounds. Left to right they are Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T, my reload with a 200gr LSWC, and on the right a 230gr FMJ round from a local manufacturer (not a reload). The OALs are as follows:

Federal HST - 1.210
Winchester Ranger T - 1.210
my reload - 1.248
New 230gr FMJ - 1.262

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Raykamm/Guns/IMG_2148.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Raykamm/Guns/IMG_2147.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Raykamm/Guns/IMG_2150.jpg

[rkammer]

That is the cleanest used gun I have seen. Before you re-work the gun ejection port check the OAL of your reloads. Measure and post the length. I think you can shorten the bullet and correct the problem but to verify that I would like to know what the OAL is now. Kahr guns have a short chamber and the bullet may be sticking in the rifleings because of length. When you try to eject and unfired round it may be pulling the bullet of the case just enough to make it drag on the barrel hood. Check that and post back.

I posted OALs with photos in my answer to Gregs post above.

[ptoemmes]

Bought my P45 NiB just after Thanksgiving, but am unsure of it's DoB, but suspect it may be more than a year old. Really dunno.

But I do know - cause I just looked - it has the relief cut you show for the CW45.

I'd be curious to know - and maybe you too - when the relief cut was introduced on the P45.

Pete

[CJB]

Check the length of the EJECTor....

The P45 doesn't have the relief cut in the slide either, so dont expect it in the barrel.

The only "problem" I can fathom is that the ejector is sitting somehow too far forward, may need "adjustment".

[Ikeo74]

I posted OALs with photos in my answer to Gregs post above.
Ok, this is what I see from your pictures. The Federal HST on the left, the one causing the problems, is fatter at the tip than all of the other 3 bullets. This extra width tip will not clear at the OAL of 1.210. I measures some of my Federal Hydra Shock which is probably the same size bullet. I measured these and they were an average length of 1.208. My suggestion is to take 1 or 2 of your HSTs and seat them at 1.208. Take these one or two and load and eject to see if they eject clear of the gun at that AOL. If they do you have 3 choices to fix the problem. (1) shorten all your HSTs (2) Change brands of self defense ammo. or (3) shave the port as suggested.* That would be my last option (shaving)

[blasterman88]

My P40 does the EXACT same thing! Very Very frusterating. It will not clear any ammo besides Ranger FMJ and Hornaday CD JHP. Thats it! Wont even eject a regular FMJ

[rkammer]

Check the length of the EJECTor....

The P45 doesn't have the relief cut in the slide either, so dont expect it in the barrel.

The only "problem" I can fathom is that the ejector is sitting somehow too far forward, may need "adjustment".

What relief cut in the slide are you referring to?

[Husky44]

Had the same problem with my CW 40. Sent it back to Kahr, they did some work, and it's better. They weren't clear what all they did in their writeup. I agree with the poster above who talks about the width at the tip. That seems to be the issue.

I didn't explore the length of the ejector; that's a plausible explanation as well. IMHO, the easiest fix is to do a little work on the barrel hood. Just be patient, and go slow, testing often.

[knkali]

do you think you will have to put a secondary bevel on the inside bottom edge of the ejection port as well to help the case clear?

[CJB]

What relief cut in the slide are you referring to?

The PM45 has a cut in the port that extends forward of the locking shoulder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P9170098.jpg

That cut is there to make ejection possible, as the rearward motion of the slide is rather limited. An empty would come out just fine, but to eject an unfired cartridge that relief cut has to be there. The geometry is slightly different, due to the longer amount the slide can move with a longer barrel, so the cut is not needed.

This is also done on Colt, Kimber, etc etc, in the 1911 designs. When the barrel gets short, the slide cannot move so far back without hitting locking surfaces, so its stroke is limited, and the cut is needed.

Just a thought....

[TominCA]

Great postings! A good thing to keep in mind!
Thanks

[rkammer]

Check the length of the EJECTor....

The only "problem" I can fathom is that the ejector is sitting somehow too far forward, may need "adjustment".

Is the position of the ejector adjustable or must it be filed to move it back?

[Ikeo74]

Is the position of the ejector adjustable or must it be filed to move it back?
The last thing I would ever do is to modify the ejector. Leave those kind of modifications to the Kahr Factory. Just my opinion. You could be opening up pandorah's box.

[rkammer]

The last thing I would ever do is to modify the ejector. Leave those kind of modifications to the Kahr Factory. Just my opinion. You could be opening up pandorah's box.

While I do appreciate your caution, my question remains. Is it adjustable or, must it be filed to move its position?

[CJB]

The last thing I would ever do is to modify the ejector. Leave those kind of modifications to the Kahr Factory. Just my opinion. You could be opening up pandorah's box.

Ditto. Definitely discuss with Kahr. Wasn't suggesting a mod... just suggesting a possible cause. Dunno if the noses on the ejectors are hand fit...but looking at my PM45 here on the table... its a rather complex set of angles and cuts.

Since its pinned in... not adjustable except through modification.

[rkammer]

Ditto. Definitely discuss with Kahr. Wasn't suggesting a mod... just suggesting a possible cause. Dunno if the noses on the ejectors are hand fit...but looking at my PM45 here on the table... its a rather complex set of angles and cuts.

Since its pinned in... not adjustable except through modification.

Thanks. :)

[jocko]

any callto kahr about any "in house mod" they are going to frown on it. Not telling u what todo, but certainly I don't feel u have a real issue here, Change ammo brands as u suggested the otrhers u tried worked, Maybe in time this one round might work OK to. things seem to change with a gun going bang alot. Ur issue is not with ejecting fired rounds either, now that would be an issue. Some guns all being the same model etc, can be sometimes alittle ammo finiky. Kahrs are not normally ammo finiky, In ur case I don't see your kahr issue as ammo finiky, but that is ur call also. I certainly would find a good defense brand and stay with it. My P380 was a real bastard with 102 grain golden sabre ammo, some never had issues with that round. I don't either now, as I just changed defense rounds and stayed with it. At best I would do what GB6491 stated and some excellent polising of his marked areas will do no harm, no foul. Do to much and then send it back and kahr is gonna seriously frown on this, as again we are not totally certain it is not a overly tight extractor or ejector.:third:

IMO leave well enough alone, to may other great brand sof defense ammo out ther eto get to excited over one brand that is not right.. fror ur gun.

At best if u just absolutley can't live with what your seeing, a calltokahr and asking them if u send the barrel back only can they do the barrel hood mods that ur seeing on new 45's They ight indeed do that for you and u wo't be out hardly any postage for a barrel that can be sent regular mail. Personally if it wasmy 45, I would pass on that to. Sopmetimes a change produces NEW CHANGES

[rkammer]

any callto kahr about any "in house mod" they are going to frown on it. Not telling u what todo, but certainly I don't feel u have a real issue here, Change ammo brands as u suggested the otrhers u tried worked, Maybe in time this one round might work OK to. things seem to change with a gun going bang alot. Ur issue is not with ejecting fired rounds either, now that would be an issue. Some guns all being the same model etc, can be sometimes alittle ammo finiky. Kahrs are not normally ammo finiky, In ur case I don't see your kahr issue as ammo finiky, but that is ur call also. I certainly would find a good defense brand and stay with it. My P380 was a real bastard with 102 grain golden sabre ammo, some never had issues with that round. I don't either now, as I just changed defense rounds and stayed with it. At best I would do what GB6491 stated and some excellent polising of his marked areas will do no harm, no foul. Do to much and then send it back and kahr is gonna seriously frown on this, as again we are not totally certain it is not a overly tight extractor or ejector.:third:

IMO leave well enough alone, to may other great brand sof defense ammo out ther eto get to excited over one brand that is not right.. fror ur gun.

At best if u just absolutley can't live with what your seeing, a calltokahr and asking them if u send the barrel back only can they do the barrel hood mods that ur seeing on new 45's They ight indeed do that for you and u wo't be out hardly any postage for a barrel that can be sent regular mail. Personally if it wasmy 45, I would pass on that to. Sopmetimes a change produces NEW CHANGES

Thanks for your thoughts, Jocko. I realize my issue isn't a deal killer with this gun but, it so happens I use Federal HST in all my other SD guns and would really like not to have to go thru all that testing again to come up with yet another SD round.

I think I'm going to call Kahr on Tuesday (after they sober up) and see if they might be willing to bring my barrel up to the current revision. Can't hurt to ask. Have a Happy, safe New Year. :D

[TennSCN]

While I realize the photo is in the failed position, it looks to have at least another 1/8" of rear movement before it hits the stops. I wonder if the bullet nose is hitting the barrel shroud where it is not relieved or the front edge of the ejection port when the slide fully returns as CJB suggested. Since it is only occurring while hand cycling there likely aren't enough marks either place to tell the tale but obviously a little something has got to go. Dremmel or 1-800, depends on your level of comfort.

Having seen a few guns go 'boom' instead of bang, I'd be sure to take a good look at the overall length of each and every round that takes a nose dive into the ramp, shroud or slide, even hand cycled. Pushing that bullet back into the case a bit can get everyone's attention!

Similarly, I'm not sure how many of those LSWC's I would be comfortable pushing through the polygonal barrel of that P45. They are said to lead foul very quickly resulting in increase pressures. I have used four Glocks in competitions for many years and yes, I 'rolled my own ammo' but I leave the lead castings for my grooved barrels. Just sayin'...

.

[rkammer]

While I realize the photo is in the failed position, it looks to have at least another 1/8" of rear movement before it hits the stops. I wonder if the bullet nose is hitting the barrel shroud where it is not relieved or the front edge of the ejection port when the slide fully returns as CJB suggested. Since it is only occurring while hand cycling there likely aren't enough marks either place to tell the tale but obviously a little something has got to go. Dremmel or 1-800, depends on your level of comfort.

Having seen a few guns go 'boom' instead of bang, I'd be sure to take a good look at the overall length of each and every round that takes a nose dive into the ramp, shroud or slide, even hand cycled. Pushing that bullet back into the case a bit can get everyone's attention!

Similarly, I'm not sure how many of those LSWC's I would be comfortable pushing through the polygonal barrel of that P45. They are said to lead foul very quickly resulting in increase pressures. I have used four Glocks in competitions for many years and yes, I 'rolled my own ammo' but I leave the lead castings for my grooved barrels. Just sayin'...

.

First, in response to your comment about shooting lead in the P45 barrel, I don't plan on doing it. I just used the LSWC in my test to see if the gun would eject a loaded round.

As for the slide still having 1/8 inch more of rear travel, it will not go back any further once the round contacts the barrel hood. i.e. the gun locks up tight. The slide will, however, go all the way back if I want to slingshot a round into an empty chamber from the magazine.

[TennSCN]

RK, if I understand, the magazine is out and the ejecting HST is becoming locked by the three points of the hood, ejector and extractor?

[rkammer]

RK, if I understand, the magazine is out and the ejecting HST is becoming locked by the three points of the hood, ejector and extractor?

That is correct except that the round will become locked whether there is a magazine installed or not.

[rkammer]

I just want to update everyone who was interested that I spoke with Kahr this morning and they are going to revise my barrel and check out the gun at no expense to me. I wrote them a lengthy email explaining why I felt this was the right thing to do and they agreed. So, the gun goes back tomorrow. Another big "attaboy" for Kahr's customer service. :)

[Tibu]

Did you get the gun back from Kahr? I am having the exact same issue with my PM45.

[rkammer]

Did you get the gun back from Kahr? I am having the exact same issue with my PM45.

I did receive the pistol back from Kahr and the problem is fixed. They did add the relief cut in the barrel hood.

In addition, they also gave me a brand new slide! I don't know why they replaced the slide (since everything else was working fine) but, I'm not complaining since the gun is over 6 years old.

[CJB]

Oh heck yes! Great service there. Glad it worked out. I wonder what the difference is with the slide? Extractor position? Ejection port slightly modified?

[rkammer]

Oh heck yes! Great service there. Glad it worked out. I wonder what the difference is with the slide? Extractor position? Ejection port slightly modified?

I'm not really sure what the difference is. They used all the piece parts from the original slide including the extractor because the one that was in it had been polished. The original slide was also polished and the new one is the same matte finish as on the new guns so, I was a bit disappointed there but getting a new slide on a 6 year old gun made the trade-off very OK with me.

[jocko]

the thing is that with kahr they have the priveldge of replacing parts until the issue goes away, WE DON'T HAVE THAT PRIVELEDGE. Probably far easier and faster to replace the slide than to ever try to do some smitty work to it. Time is money at kahr to. Maybe they themselves cannot pinpoint the slide issue but by putting on the new slide and testing it the issues went away, so they arejust going to let it go at that. Kudos to kahr for taking care of ur gun even though it is out of warranty. Kinda odd that fort over 6 ears that gun has been in someones hands and one ha sto wonder if the issues was there then or what?

[rkammer]

the thing is that with kahr they have the priveldge of replacing parts until the issue goes away, WE DON'T HAVE THAT PRIVELEDGE. Probably far easier and faster to replace the slide than to ever try to do some smitty work to it. Time is money at kahr to. Maybe they themselves cannot pinpoint the slide issue but by putting on the new slide and testing it the issues went away, so they arejust going to let it go at that. Kudos to kahr for taking care of ur gun even though it is out of warranty. Kinda odd that fort over 6 ears that gun has been in someones hands and one ha sto wonder if the issues was there then or what?

Good points, Jocko. And, as they say, "all's well that ends well". :)

[4xglock]

[QUOTE=gb6491;119592]Hey Ray,
Have you tried putting the barrel of your CW45 in the P45 to see if the ammo will eject? If it does eject it might just be a matter of polishing/removing some material from the hood of the P45 barrel to provide extra clearance. If it were mine, I think I would try breaking/polishing the lower edge of the barrel hood YMMV.
http://i42.tinypic.com/25ppb7k.jpg
I was having exactly the same problem as the OP. Your suggestion worked great sir, thank you very much.