Big Brother shreds Constitution

[TriggerMan]

Patriot Act I bothered me, but then came Patriot Act II. TSA really bothers me. More recently, NDAA was signed and then armed Federal Protection Services decides to surround a public building and require ID to those wishing to enter. Did we kiss the Bill of Rights away since 9-11-2001?

http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/010412shield

[LMT42]

Did we kiss the Bill of Rights away since 9-11-2001?

Yes, and it's only going to get worse. I'm always surprised by the lack of comment/debate on these issues in firearm forums. If Obama and congress outlawed high capacity pistol magazines, gun forums across this nation would light up with outrage and indignation. I guess Bubba doesn't care if you strip his rights a little at a time, just don't mess with his guns.

Re the article; I fail to see why a SWAT style officer is needed to check security at an SSA office. Perhaps they're preparing for the demise of social security? Seems like a shady operation, but maybe I'm missing something.

[LaP]

TriggerMan you should be expecting a knock on your door during the middle of the night.
It's for the good of the children.

:cool:

[yqtszhj]

Re the article; I fail to see why a SWAT style officer is needed to check security at an SSA office. Perhaps they're preparing for the demise of social security? Seems like a shady operation, but maybe I'm missing something.

You may have hit on something there.

[TriggerMan]

TriggerMan you should be expecting a knock on your door during the middle of the night.
It's for the good of the children.

:cool:I'm thinking more like "no knock" warrant. Flash bang grenades and dogs. I'll be in the bunker below the bedroom.;)

[jeffe007]

yes it horrible and i am appalled at how few people seem to care or understand what is at stake here. On a legal note, (four years of terror in law school learning "the system", tells me that the courts will justify this law with some sort of legal fiction. Truth is however, that the law is already void as it violates the constitution. See MArbury v. Madison. Its a very simple standard to meet. But until someone is arrested under it, no one can bring an action to stop it. another example of our country being destroyed or rather, already destroyed.

[muggsy]

Patriot Act I bothered me, but then came Patriot Act II. TSA really bothers me. More recently, NDAA was signed and then armed Federal Protection Services decides to surround a public building and require ID to those wishing to enter. Did we kiss the Bill of Rights away since 9-11-2001?

http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/010412shield

The Patriot Act has safeguards built into it that protect the right of American Citizens. Has any one of you ever bothered to read the Patriot Act or are you simply reacting to the liberal spin? You haven't lost any of your constitutional rights under the Patriot Act. I cannot believe how easily some people can be swayed by appealing to their fears. President George W. Bush was not the enemy. He was your Commander-in-Chief. Unbelievable.

[KMA]

Welcome to the new USA!

[John222]

I was very disappointed that Obama signed this. However, support was so great I think it would have passed without him. For instance; 210 out of 236 republicans in the house voted in favor of it and 71 out of 193 democrats voted in favor of it. I guess it shows the tea party repubs don't give a darn about the bill of rights.

And muggsy, when has the government every given reason to trust it?

[muggsy]

I was very disappointed that Obama signed this. However, support was so great I think it would have passed without him. For instance; 210 out of 236 republicans in the house voted in favor of it and 71 out of 193 democrats voted in favor of it. I guess it shows the tea party repubs don't give a darn about the bill of rights.

And muggsy, when has the government every given reason to trust it?

I have a healthy distrust of government. When I hear something that raises red flags, I do a little research of my own. I don't parrot the left or the right.

[ltxi]

I work for the government. Always have at some level and in one form or another. And I can be trusted. :001_huh:

[TriggerMan]

The Patriot Act has safeguards built into it that protect the right of American Citizens. Has any one of you ever bothered to read the Patriot Act or are you simply reacting to the liberal spin? You haven't lost any of your constitutional rights under the Patriot Act. I cannot believe how easily some people can be swayed by appealing to their fears. President George W. Bush was not the enemy. He was your Commander-in-Chief. Unbelievable....and President Obama is now your Commander-in-Chief. There is a whole crew running in the current Primaries trading on fear. Unbelievable.

[TriggerMan]

With some help from Cornell Law School, here are the violations of the Constitution incorporated into the Patriot Act.

http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-vs-const.html


and , from the ACLU website

What You Should Know
On May 26, 2011, Congress passed a four-year extension of three expiring Patriot Act provisions without making much-needed changes to the overly broad surveillance bill. The extended provisions are set now set to expire on June 1, 2015. Despite bills pending in both the House and the Senate to amend the three expiring provisions and other sections of the Patriot Act, Congress decided instead to move ahead with a straightforward reauthorization.
ACT NOW
Despite the many amendments to these laws since 9/11, congress and the public have yet to receive real information about how these powerful tools are being used to collect information on Americans and how that information is being used. All of these laws work together to create a surveillance superstructure – and Congress must understand how it really works to create meaningful protections for civil liberties.

The ACLU's recent report, Reclaiming Patriotism (http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/patriot_report_20090310.pdf), provides more information on parts of the Patriot Act that need to be amended. The three expiring provisions of the Patriot Act give the government sweeping authority to spy on individuals inside the United States, and in some cases, without any suspicion of wrongdoing. All three should be allowed to expire if they are not amended to include privacy protections to protect personal information from government overreach.

Section 215 of the Patriot Act authorizes the government to obtain "any tangible thing" relevant to a terrorism investigation, even if there is no showing that the "thing" pertains to suspected terrorists or terrorist activities. This provision is contrary to traditional notions of search and seizure, which require the government to show reasonable suspicion or probable cause before undertaking an investigation that infringes upon a person's privacy. Congress must ensure that things collected with this power have a meaningful nexus to suspected terrorist activity or it should be allowed to expire.
Section 206 of the Patriot Act, also known as "roving John Doe wiretap" provision, permits the government to obtain intelligence surveillance orders that identify neither the person nor the facility to be tapped. This provision is contrary to traditional notions of search and seizure, which require government to state with particularity what it seeks to search or seize. Section 206 should be amended to mirror similar and longstanding criminal laws that permit roving wiretaps, but require the naming of a specific target. Otherwise, it should expire.
Section 6001 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, or the so-called "Lone Wolf" provision, permits secret intelligence surveillance of non-US persons who are not affiliated with a foreign organization. Such an authorization, granted only in secret courts is subject to abuse and threatens our longtime understandings of the limits of the government's investigatory powers within the borders of the United States. This provision has never been used and should be allowed to expire outright.
The bill also fails to amend other portions of the Patriot Act in dire need of reform, most notably those relating to the issuance and use of national security letters (NSLs). NSLs permit the government to obtain the communication, financial and credit records of anyone deemed relevant to a terrorism investigation even if that person is not suspected of unlawful behavior. Numerous Department of Justice Inspector General reports have confirmed that tens of thousands of these letters are issued every year and they are used to collect information on people two and three times removed from a terrorism suspect. NSLs also come with a nondisclosure requirement that precludes a court from determining whether the gag is necessary to protect national security. The NSL provisions should be amended so that they collect information only on suspected terrorists and the gag should be modified to permit meaningful court review for those who wish to challenge nondisclosure orders.

[TriggerMan]

I work for the government. Always have at some level and in one form or another. And I can be trusted. :001_huh:
You can deliver my mail, just don't read it in secret. :rolleyes:

[muggsy]

With some help from Cornell Law School, here are the violations of the Constitution incorporated into the Patriot Act.

http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-vs-const.html


and , from the ACLU website

What You Should Know
On May 26, 2011, Congress passed a four-year extension of three expiring Patriot Act provisions without making much-needed changes to the overly broad surveillance bill. The extended provisions are set now set to expire on June 1, 2015. Despite bills pending in both the House and the Senate to amend the three expiring provisions and other sections of the Patriot Act, Congress decided instead to move ahead with a straightforward reauthorization.
ACT NOW
Despite the many amendments to these laws since 9/11, congress and the public have yet to receive real information about how these powerful tools are being used to collect information on Americans and how that information is being used. All of these laws work together to create a surveillance superstructure – and Congress must understand how it really works to create meaningful protections for civil liberties.

The ACLU's recent report, Reclaiming Patriotism (http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/patriot_report_20090310.pdf), provides more information on parts of the Patriot Act that need to be amended. The three expiring provisions of the Patriot Act give the government sweeping authority to spy on individuals inside the United States, and in some cases, without any suspicion of wrongdoing. All three should be allowed to expire if they are not amended to include privacy protections to protect personal information from government overreach.

Section 215 of the Patriot Act authorizes the government to obtain "any tangible thing" relevant to a terrorism investigation, even if there is no showing that the "thing" pertains to suspected terrorists or terrorist activities. This provision is contrary to traditional notions of search and seizure, which require the government to show reasonable suspicion or probable cause before undertaking an investigation that infringes upon a person's privacy. Congress must ensure that things collected with this power have a meaningful nexus to suspected terrorist activity or it should be allowed to expire.
Section 206 of the Patriot Act, also known as "roving John Doe wiretap" provision, permits the government to obtain intelligence surveillance orders that identify neither the person nor the facility to be tapped. This provision is contrary to traditional notions of search and seizure, which require government to state with particularity what it seeks to search or seize. Section 206 should be amended to mirror similar and longstanding criminal laws that permit roving wiretaps, but require the naming of a specific target. Otherwise, it should expire.
Section 6001 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, or the so-called "Lone Wolf" provision, permits secret intelligence surveillance of non-US persons who are not affiliated with a foreign organization. Such an authorization, granted only in secret courts is subject to abuse and threatens our longtime understandings of the limits of the government's investigatory powers within the borders of the United States. This provision has never been used and should be allowed to expire outright.
The bill also fails to amend other portions of the Patriot Act in dire need of reform, most notably those relating to the issuance and use of national security letters (NSLs). NSLs permit the government to obtain the communication, financial and credit records of anyone deemed relevant to a terrorism investigation even if that person is not suspected of unlawful behavior. Numerous Department of Justice Inspector General reports have confirmed that tens of thousands of these letters are issued every year and they are used to collect information on people two and three times removed from a terrorism suspect. NSLs also come with a nondisclosure requirement that precludes a court from determining whether the gag is necessary to protect national security. The NSL provisions should be amended so that they collect information only on suspected terrorists and the gag should be modified to permit meaningful court review for those who wish to challenge nondisclosure orders.

Unfortunately, the ACLU does not rule on constitutionality of a law. The U.S. Supreme Court does. So far the ACLU hasn't mounted a successful challenge to the Patriot Act. Why do you suppose that is? The Patriot Act has been enforce since shortly after 9/11. I rest my case.

[WMD]

Ahhhh.... fun with words..... try this.....

...."authorizes the government to obtain "any tangible thing" relevant to a terrorism investigation"....

Key word is "relevant". If it is not relevant, you have got a case. God forbid we go after stuff relevant to a terrorism investigation.

...."permits the government to obtain intelligence surveillance orders that identify neither the person nor the facility to be tapped."

And you are worried about..., what? The government is going to secretly listen to what you have to say and throw you in jail? It is not that simple. Our guys need some lattitude in seeking out terrorists.

And lastly....

....."the so-called "Lone Wolf" provision, permits secret intelligence surveillance of non-US persons who are not affiliated with a foreign organization."

And why is it bad to "spy" on non US persons? Do you really believe other countries are not looking at you? I think this should be amended to include non US persons who are affiliated with a foreign organization as well.

Personally, I do not see the issues here. I agree with Muggsy. Do not let the left wing spin influence you (unless you are a left winger in right wing clothing) :D

[WMD]

LMT42 said:

"Re the article; I fail to see why a SWAT style officer is needed to check security at an SSA office. Perhaps they're preparing for the demise of social security? Seems like a shady operation, but maybe I'm missing something."

Man, what a shocker going into the SSA office the first couple of times. The first was the armed gaurds..... I guess they are there to protect the SSA employees, the second was the significant number of bottom feeders (of which most could not speak english) that were in the SSA office as well. They were there to ensure continuence of their "gubmint" check. I could definitely see the bottom feeders holding mini uprisings. Unfortunately, I do not think those armed guards were there to protect me! :(

[muggsy]

You've all heard from the left on this issue. Now let's hear from the right. I can cut and paste with the best of them.

http://www.justice.gov/archive/ll/highlights.htm

http://www.dailycampus.com/2.7438/patriot-act-an-effective-tool-in-preventing-terrorism-1.1050046#.TwhRRm9SSSo

[muggsy]

...and President Obama is now your Commander-in-Chief. There is a whole crew running in the current Primaries trading on fear. Unbelievable.

President Obama is the Commander-in-Chief, but the republicans are running on facts, not fear. If those facts cause you some fear then so be it. Obama will be a one term Commander-in-Chief. In just three years he's proven that he's not up to the job. My future's so bright I gotta wear shades. How you doin'?

[TriggerMan]

President Obama is the Commander-in-Chief, but the republicans are running on facts, not fear. If those facts cause you some fear then so be it. Obama will be a one term Commander-in-Chief. In just three years he's proven that he's not up to the job. My future's so bright I gotta wear shades. How you doin'?I'm not doing as well. I have a choice between a field of batsh!t crazies on the Right and Obama on the Left. Not doing good at all. 300+ Million people and these are our choices. Dear God help us.

[TriggerMan]

I have grown too fond of the "probable cause" our Founders intended. I kinda like that "right to a speedy trial". And excuse me if I prefer my private consultations with my legal counsel be private.

If its legit, why can't "authorities" spell out to a judge what they are looking for when they ask to read my email and peruse my Library records.

Too much secrecy leads to abuse.

[ltxi]

I'm not doing as well. I have a choice between a field of batsh!t crazies on the Right and Obama on the Left. Not doing good at all. 300+ Million people and these are our choices. Dear God help us.

....X2!

[muggsy]

The only thing you have to fear is fear itself.

[Longitude Zero]

If you do not fear the "G" and the direction it is headed in then you have NO clue about the realities in which we live. The "G" has grown into what I refer to as "an abortion that lived.".