Golden showers

[knkali]

thoughts?

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/12/10131666-taliban-peace-talks-not-harmed-by-urinating-marines-video

[ripley16]

If this is the worst thing Marines do in a combat zone, then I am amazed. Is peeing now a war crime? I hate the liberal media.

[knkali]

war is ugly.

[Bawanna]

I'm sure the on the ground leaders aren't the slightest bit bothered. It's the desk jockeys and bleeding hearts who want to make a to do about it.
They are the enemy, we are the good guys, we win they lose. Hopefully we can get their leader out of our house come next election.

Peace talks my backside.

Nobody seems to mention what they would do to us if they won which doesn't happen.

[kayl]

Would they rather we wrapped the bodies in bacon?

[wyntrout]

Maybe you haven't paid attention to all of the incidents like this in the past 10 years. Every time there's an incidence of "disrespect" of something considered torture... Abu Gra''ib... it is used as propaganda to inflame those who take offense... which in these cases, means that the "rabble" runs amuck killing anyone who remotely resembles the perpetrators, namely U.S. citizens and military in particular.

These people are fanatical enough without being given reasons to go out and seek someone to punish. How we treat their religion, citizens, prisoners, or national symbols is all about honor and respect. If we don't respect them and their symbols, etc., we shouldn't expect them to behave "honorably" towards our people and our military.

If we treat them with respect, maybe our own prisoners won't be immediately singled out for torture and grisly execution, but all the elements of the other side didn't sign the Geneva Conventions, so inflaming the situation can only make things worse for our armed forces and citizens abroad... especially those dim-witted ones looking for "adventure."

In this day, cell phones with cameras are everywhere and things get sent to friends and posted on the Internet. Police, military, and citizens shouldn't think that there won't be consequences to their actions. Look at the riots and deaths over the cartoon depictions of Mohammed. People died and there were are riots all over the world.

Think before you do stupid things that could have far-reaching consequences... especially endangering our military and citizens.

Wynn

[OldLincoln]

My thought is they should be court marshaled and demoted, perhaps extend their tour for being so STUPID to stage such a STUPID thing for video. I thought Marines were smarter than that and am disappointed.

[Hognutz]

Did we all forget about the journalist that got his head cut off on video, by these same animals?? I believe his name was Danny Pearl..I'd piss on all of them myself if I could..

[Thunder71]

Yeah, that was a pretty stupid idea.

[wyntrout]

Those guys should have been taught about respect and honor... giving and earning... and the consequences of such actions. More than likely, they had plenty of classes about sensitivity, self-esteem, diversity, and how to hyphenate their nationality or "race".

They should have been taught skills and actions that would give them a better chance of surviving capture and being treated like human beings, instead pissing off and inflaming the enemy to adopt a no-prisoners posture... or a slice-and-dice over a slow fire treatment of our captured military.

If it were up to me, however, I would operate like the Russians have or do. After atrocities on our guys, I would capture ten times as many of their "fighters", cut off all appendages, burn the bodies and bury them facing away from Mecca in pig feces and urine, but that's just me. I'm a warm-and-fuzzy kind of guy and I don't believe in hand-wringing and PC-crap.

Wynn:D

[wyntrout]

Unfortunately, we have to be practical. The hand-wringers are in charge and respond with "Why can't we all just get along?" and punish the military for being the insensitive slobs the PC-hand-wringers consider them to be anyhow.

The reality is that everything is blown out of proportion and the actions of these thoughtless Marines will have grave consequences for any of their countrymen or women being captured by the fanatical, radical Islamists anywhere in the world... most likely a grisly and very painful death... on video... to show the veneance wreaked on those who would mock the "Faithful". Actions have reactions and they should have been thinking about their buddies being captured and being made examples... and how they and their loved ones would suffer endlessly.

Wynn

[muggsy]

thoughts?

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/12/10131666-taliban-peace-talks-not-harmed-by-urinating-marines-video

It wasn't necessary. It wasn't productive. Desecrating corpses brought these marines down to the level of the enemy. We're better than that.

[Thunder71]

Exactly muggsy.

[jimsea]

Confucious say: Having your pee pee show up on the Internet is never a good thing.

[Bawanna]

Confucious say: Having your pee pee show up on the Internet is never a good thing.

And there in could be the answer. Perhaps the person responsible for posting these pictures all over the world including the taliban cave dwellers should be tried for High Treason. Course that might set a precedence and create a long line of treason trials hopefully starting at the White House and moving to the house and senate.


Loose lips sink ships!

[Cornhusker]

A big +1 on muggsy & wyntrout responses. Repercussion is inevitable in many ways. A very unfortunate situation.

[Armybrat]

Unprofessional & dumb thing to do any way you cut it, especially in front of a camera.

But I understand the sentiment when dealing with animals like the Taliban.

[LaP]

I'm sure there are other examples of stupid behavior.... BUT, DON'T TAKE VIDEOS.
Is this a form of bragging? If so, it didn't work. We are not impressed.

[JohnR]

If the Muzzies call this barbaric, what do they call beheadings, genital mutilation, honor killings, and world takeover?

[340pd]

If the Muzzies call this barbaric, what do they call beheadings, genital mutilation, honor killings, and world takeover?

John: What they did is between them and their God. The Cameraman is dumber than the guys doing it. He/she will cost the U.S. big time.
They all should have learned form Richard Nixon's tapes.

[Hognutz]

I really don't have a problem with these guys hosing down the Taliban. Should it have been on camera? Not in a million years. Momentary lapse of reason..

[LMT42]

I wonder how this thread would read if instead it was pictures of Taliban pissing on dead Marines?

[muggsy]

And there in could be the answer. Perhaps the person responsible for posting these pictures all over the world including the taliban cave dwellers should be tried for High Treason. Course that might set a precedence and create a long line of treason trials hopefully starting at the White House and moving to the house and senate.


Loose lips sink ships!

Let's no get into a pis-ing contest over this. :)

[muggsy]

If the Muzzies call this barbaric, what do they call beheadings, genital mutilation, honor killings, and world takeover?

Jihad.

[muggsy]

I wonder how this thread would read if instead it was pictures of Taliban pissing on dead Marines?

So our troops should lower themselves to the level of the enemy? We win wars by having a disciplined military. If you are going to wear the uniform of your country act like it means something. Don't disgrace it.

[ripley16]

A group of disenchanted losers gather in a park in New York, throw "fecal Bombs", crap in public on police cars, rape, get high and smell up an entire city block and the liberals, President Obama in particular, throw their support behind them. President Clinton does the same thing, different fluid, on an intern and the liberals love him for it, defend him and call him great.

Liberal heros kill cops, spit on our miltary and really hate America.

A couple Leathernecks, living on the edge, killing and being killed, killing bastards that want to kill you, take a moment to show their universally recognised respect for the enemy that was trying to kill them and all hell breaks loose. God bless those guys. Piss on 'em for me!

My heros kill Taliban, (and other cave dwellers),

God I hate liberals. Let the revolution begin.

[knkali]

A couple Leathernecks, living on the edge, killing and being killed, killing bastards that want to kill you, take a moment to show their universally recognised respect for the enemy that was trying to kill them and all hell breaks loose.

While I dont agree with all of what Ripley said here, he does make a point. You are asked to live in a sleeping bag in the worst of conditions in an environment where someone around every corner wants you dead and it is OK to shoot, stab, blow up, burn, and kill the enemy by any means possible. Then suddenly, once the enemy is dead, turn off that resentment, that anger, that edge of mental attitude when others want might be too much to ask for. Like I said, war is an ugly thing. It will never be anything but ugly.

[LaP]

Fine!!!
BUT DON'T RECORD IT.

You know it's gonna end up on YouTube.

[Hognutz]

A group of disenchanted losers gather in a park in New York, throw "fecal Bombs", crap in public on police cars, rape, get high and smell up an entire city block and the liberals, President Obama in particular, throw their support behind them. President Clinton does the same thing, different fluid, on an intern and the liberals love him for it, defend him and call him great.

Liberal heros kill cops, spit on our miltary and really hate America.

A couple Leathernecks, living on the edge, killing and being killed, killing bastards that want to kill you, take a moment to show their universally recognised respect for the enemy that was trying to kill them and all hell breaks loose. God bless those guys. Piss on 'em for me!

My heros kill Taliban, (and other cave dwellers),

God I hate liberals. Let the revolution begin.

I love ya, man..

[Micha2u]

Well...they probably shouldn't have done this and surely shouldn't have done video of it if they decided to piss on those bastards after they got them.

I am disappointed that such a big deal is being made out of this incident with bigger things such as "Fast and Furious" where US border agents and over 200 other Mexican people have gotten killed as the result of US government smuggling guns to the cartels in Mexico. People in the loop on "Fast and Furious" need to be criminally prosecuted and convicted on this.

Where are our sense of priorities???

[les strat]

What is covered by the media is a trickle down situation. Who owns/puts money behind the papers and other media, and the money and power these people have create a controlled media, one with a political agenda far beyond what we can probably comprehend. Not to sound like a consipracy theorist or anything, but.......

I don't think the media is liberal "just because". It's not because they just like Obami. The things that he and his chronies do get filtered out and passed over. The media won't cover it heavily until they have to. Had this been any other DOJ, pres, or staffed BATF, it would have been a media meltdown. They commited treason.

What these marines did was shameful IMO. War is ugly, yes, but what is uglier is the fallout that can come from a stupid gesture that ends up on the nightly news around the world. Innocent people die because of stuff like this.

[Armybrat]

What is covered by the media is a trickle down situation.

Am I going to Hell for laughin' at your choice of words here? :D

[Bawanna]

Am I going to Hell for laughin' at your choice of words here? :D

If you do you won't be alone. I'll be right there with ya.

[JFootin]

Am I going to Hell for laughin' at your choice of words here? :D

Reminds me of the Nascar driver named D ick Trickle, whom I refer to as Pecker Tracks! :D

[les strat]

Am I going to Hell for laughin' at your choice of words here? :D

LMAO, it must have been my subconscience!!! :crazy:

[wyntrout]

He must have been referring to the "tinkle down" situation.

Wynn:)

[Hognutz]

I got this today in an email. I thought that it was as well said as anything that I have seen or read on the subject.


Wall Photos (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1189331897018.29824.1339973391&type=3)Marines that urinated on Taliban dead? Here is what Rep. Allen West said ..

Re...p. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army Lieutenant Colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines' video, and has given us permission to publish it.

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”



http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html

[Husky44]

It wasn't necessary. It wasn't productive. Desecrating corpses brought these marines down to the level of the enemy. We're better than that.


THIS ^

I was a soldier for 23 years, and trained thousands of troops. You can be a warrior, a dangerous, steely-eyed killer who can single-handedly transform a battle with your courage, valor, and fighting skills, and still have and live by high morals. Once this type of behavior is allowed, you've allowed dehumanizing the enemy, and it's just a short imperceptible slip into dehumanizing yourself. We have to uphold certain standards, unilaterally, if we hope to remain a higher life form.

A couple more thoughts (sorry, but just finished reading through the rest of these):

My standard of conduct is not set by those around me. It is set by my Lord. Like it or not, these corpses were God's creation, just like all mankind. God will judge how we treat them. I am not advocating nonviolence, as there is a time and a place for war, but the atrocities committed by the enemy IN NO WAY justify commission of atrocities by our side. Guards at Gitmo were getting urine and feces thrown at them every single day. What differentiates US from THEM is how we respond, not in the good situations, but in the worst. Saying "well, they did it first", or "what they did was way worse" wouldn't fly as an excuse with your children, would it? We're supposed to be better than that.

I take exception to one other's comment to the effect that the Muslims will answer to their god for their actions. No they won't. They'll answer to the same God we all do. He sets the standard of right and wrong, good and evil, and he judges us ALL. I'm not qualified to speak for him, but I'm pretty confident from what I know of him that he's not too pleased with those who have rejected his Son, and in that rejection sworn allegiance to another god who authorizes beheadings, honor killings, genital mutilation, mistreatment of women, and jihad against all who won't swear allegiance to allah.

These Marines may not be Christian. That's OK. But they swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the US, and to obey the orders of the officers appointed over them. This is a HUGE violation of UCMJ, which is foundational to those orders. It's a huge violation of the values on which are armed forces have been built over the last 200+ years. This is no different in my book than Mi Lai. We don't mistreat corpses, we don't kill non-combatants, we don't act in vengeance. PERIOD.

Those Marines were wrong, and they know it, and all who have worn the uniform know their behavior was wrong. And you can't justify wrong behavior, unless you're ok with situational ethics and moral relativism. If you're ok with those two things, then you've just assumed the role as determiner of right and wrong, good and evil--and you're no more qualified to have that ultimate role than any other human, so don't be offended when they assume it for their lives, and their ethics and morals don't respect YOU. If you believe moral relativism is tempered by killing or oppressing all those who don't agree with you, then you're essentially advocating survival of the fittest, which is cool as long as you're fit. I get to see it a lot here in Alaska lived out in the animal world, and it's really pretty brutal to see the old and infirm taken out, when once they were the pack leader. We're supposed to be different.

[knkali]

THIS ^

I was a soldier for 23 years, and trained thousands of troops. You can be a warrior, a dangerous, steely-eyed killer who can single-handedly transform a battle with your courage, valor, and fighting skills, and still have and live by high morals. Once this type of behavior is allowed, you've allowed dehumanizing the enemy, and it's just a short imperceptible slip into dehumanizing yourself. We have to uphold certain standards, unilaterally, if we hope to remain a higher life form.

A couple more thoughts (sorry, but just finished reading through the rest of these):

My standard of conduct is not set by those around me. It is set by my Lord. Like it or not, these corpses were God's creation, just like all mankind. God will judge how we treat them. I am not advocating nonviolence, as there is a time and a place for war, but the atrocities committed by the enemy IN NO WAY justify commission of atrocities by our side. Guards at Gitmo were getting urine and feces thrown at them every single day. What differentiates US from THEM is how we respond, not in the good situations, but in the worst. Saying "well, they did it first", or "what they did was way worse" wouldn't fly as an excuse with your children, would it? We're supposed to be better than that.

I take exception to one other's comment to the effect that the Muslims will answer to their god for their actions. No they won't. They'll answer to the same God we all do. He sets the standard of right and wrong, good and evil, and he judges us ALL. I'm not qualified to speak for him, but I'm pretty confident from what I know of him that he's not too pleased with those who have rejected his Son, and in that rejection sworn allegiance to another god who authorizes beheadings, honor killings, genital mutilation, mistreatment of women, and jihad against all who won't swear allegiance to allah.

These Marines may not be Christian. That's OK. But they swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the US, and to obey the orders of the officers appointed over them. This is a HUGE violation of UCMJ, which is foundational to those orders. It's a huge violation of the values on which are armed forces have been built over the last 200+ years. This is no different in my book than Mi Lai. We don't mistreat corpses, we don't kill non-combatants, we don't act in vengeance. PERIOD.

Those Marines were wrong, and they know it, and all who have worn the uniform know their behavior was wrong. And you can't justify wrong behavior, unless you're ok with situational ethics and moral relativism. If you're ok with those two things, then you've just assumed the role as determiner of right and wrong, good and evil--and you're no more qualified to have that ultimate role than any other human, so don't be offended when they assume it for their lives, and their ethics and morals don't respect YOU. If you believe moral relativism is tempered by killing or oppressing all those who don't agree with you, then you're essentially advocating survival of the fittest, which is cool as long as you're fit. I get to see it a lot here in Alaska lived out in the animal world, and it's really pretty brutal to see the old and infirm taken out, when once they were the pack leader. We're supposed to be different.


I respect you as a warrior and your insight into war. You mentioned of God and religion in the same paragraph as war, but is war ever God Like? If not can someone explain how God is always mentioned in a discussion about war? When I think of God, I think of peace, love, compassion, tolerance, and forgiveness. War is the last word I would equate with The Creator. However, often it is. I am not trying to offend anyone or show disrespect. Instead, I am looking for another view on this to consider.

[ripley16]

In new war, when you close with the enemy, you may;
shoot him to death,
burn him to death,
stick a knife in his throat,
blow his body to bits,
bury him alive,
drown him,
or kill him with your hands,

But for God's sake don't offend him!

If you do you're in trouble. These are the rules. These are the rules for the military that is.

If you're a protester, in a city park... then it's OK to pee on other people, throw feces on them or destroy public property. The Commander in Chief backs you up in this case. Just don't do it in a war zone. Save that part for your return home.

OK, now I get it.

[knkali]

In new war, when you close with the enemy, you may;
shoot him to death,
burn him to death,
stick a knife in his throat,
blow his body to bits,
bury him alive,
drown him,
or kill him with your hands,

But for God's sake don't offend him!

If you do you're in trouble. These are the rules. These are the rules for the military that is.

If you're a protester, in a city park... then it's OK to pee on other people, throw feces on them or destroy public property. The Commander in Chief backs you up in this case. Just don't do it in a war zone. Save that part for your return home.

OK, now I get it.

I got it too.

[Hognutz]

I'm with you, as well, Ripley..

[Husky44]

I respect you as a warrior and your insight into war. You mentioned of God and religion in the same paragraph as war, but is war ever God Like? If not can someone explain how God is always mentioned in a discussion about war? When I think of God, I think of peace, love, compassion, tolerance, and forgiveness. War is the last word I would equate with The Creator. However, often it is. I am not trying to offend anyone or show disrespect. Instead, I am looking for another view on this to consider.

Excellent question, and certainly not offensive or disrespectful. In addition to a (retired) soldier, I'm also just a few weeks away from completing a Masters degree in Christian Ministry, so I offer my answer below based on something more than just uninformed opinion:

"Is war ever God-like?" This is the dangerous one, but the answer is yes. In the Old Testament, God explicitly ordered the Israelites into war, directing their battles. The book of Joshua is an account of a military campaign (among other things). The Israelites' invasion of Canaan at his direction was because of another characteristic of God that you neglected to list above: God's judgment. God is completely good, and he cannot tolerate evil. The Canaanites had become so evil that he chose to use the Israelite army to enact his judgment on them, while at the same time revealing himself through the nation of Israel (that's a WHOLE lot of theology packed into just a little space, so it's not complete in every aspect, but it's accurate for purposes of this discussion). War is not limited to the Old Testament; read Revelation 19:11-21. Jesus will lead an army in battle against the forces of Satan. So, in short, YES, war can be God-like.

You ask why God and war are often mentioned together. Here's where we get into trouble. No matter how good God is, it doesn't take man very long to corrupt God's truth for man's own selfish purposes. Much of the use of God to justify war is not Godly. The Crusades were a great example. I'm not going to delve into other religious beliefs here, as it would require a lot more explanation. But there must be times when a nation can defend itself against the threat of evil. One could argue that the Allies actions World War II was certainly within the character of God. We could debate for many years whether the same can be said for Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Your characteristics of God are very accurate, but they're not complete. God is not mean, or "angry" in the sense that you and I are in that we have emotional outbursts, but God does judge, and he cannot coexist with evil. The Bible uses the term "wrath", which is his response to evil, and it's not pretty. But God can't tolerate rebellion any more than a parent can from their own child. God is amazingly tolerant, in that he doesn't unleash his wrath every time we rebel, but there comes a time when he says "enough."

The problem is when we try to play God. There's nothing ungodly about defending our nation from aggression. The commandment is better translated "thou shall not murder" rather than "thou shall not kill". There's a difference between a soldier taking a life in combat, or a LEO taking a life in the line of duty, or even you or I taking a life in defense of our family; and selfishly killing another human for whatever reason we justify. Likewise, when nations use God as an excuse to take up arms without justification, then it's difficult to see God in war. See first sentence of this paragraph.

Hope this makes sense. I can assure you that God doesn't judge lightly or quickly (the Bible describes him as "longsuffering"); he gives each one of us, all over the earth, every opportunity to turn from evil and turn to him.

[LaP]

If you're a protester, in a city park... then it's OK to pee on other people, throw feces on them or destroy public property. The Commander in Chief backs you up in this case. Just don't do it in a war zone. Save that part for your return home.

OK, now I get it.


Ummm, I think those protesters even paid good money for that service. They lined up for it like a ferris wheel ride.

[Hognutz]

A hot shower, is a hot shower. Now, on to the mess tent!!

[knkali]

Excellent question, and certainly not offensive or disrespectful. In addition to a (retired) soldier, I'm also just a few weeks away from completing a Masters degree in Christian Ministry, so I offer my answer below based on something more than just uninformed opinion:

"Is war ever God-like?" This is the dangerous one, but the answer is yes. In the Old Testament, God explicitly ordered the Israelites into war, directing their battles. The book of Joshua is an account of a military campaign (among other things). The Israelites' invasion of Canaan at his direction was because of another characteristic of God that you neglected to list above: God's judgment. God is completely good, and he cannot tolerate evil. The Canaanites had become so evil that he chose to use the Israelite army to enact his judgment on them, while at the same time revealing himself through the nation of Israel (that's a WHOLE lot of theology packed into just a little space, so it's not complete in every aspect, but it's accurate for purposes of this discussion). War is not limited to the Old Testament; read Revelation 19:11-21. Jesus will lead an army in battle against the forces of Satan. So, in short, YES, war can be God-like.

You ask why God and war are often mentioned together. Here's where we get into trouble. No matter how good God is, it doesn't take man very long to corrupt God's truth for man's own selfish purposes. Much of the use of God to justify war is not Godly. The Crusades were a great example. I'm not going to delve into other religious beliefs here, as it would require a lot more explanation. But there must be times when a nation can defend itself against the threat of evil. One could argue that the Allies actions World War II was certainly within the character of God. We could debate for many years whether the same can be said for Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Your characteristics of God are very accurate, but they're not complete. God is not mean, or "angry" in the sense that you and I are in that we have emotional outbursts, but God does judge, and he cannot coexist with evil. The Bible uses the term "wrath", which is his response to evil, and it's not pretty. But God can't tolerate rebellion any more than a parent can from their own child. God is amazingly tolerant, in that he doesn't unleash his wrath every time we rebel, but there comes a time when he says "enough."

The problem is when we try to play God. There's nothing ungodly about defending our nation from aggression. The commandment is better translated "thou shall not murder" rather than "thou shall not kill". There's a difference between a soldier taking a life in combat, or a LEO taking a life in the line of duty, or even you or I taking a life in defense of our family; and selfishly killing another human for whatever reason we justify. Likewise, when nations use God as an excuse to take up arms without justification, then it's difficult to see God in war. See first sentence of this paragraph.

Hope this makes sense. I can assure you that God doesn't judge lightly or quickly (the Bible describes him as "longsuffering"); he gives each one of us, all over the earth, every opportunity to turn from evil and turn to him.

Thank you for taking your time to write that. It actually recapitulates what I have been reading lately.

[scotty_MK9]

I think atleast most ppl would agree that video taping it was very stupid... Dispite ur opinions of peeing on people.

[Husky44]

Thank you for taking your time to write that. It actually recapitulates what I have been reading lately.

Hope it was a worthwhile read. No time at all--keyboard diarrhea is one of my many gifts.:eek: