Quality Out of the Box - FYI

[OldLincoln]

A guy named BuilderTroll started an informal survey (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=252140) in Dec 2009 on 1911Forum.com to get the skinny on how many guns were perfect right out of the box. New guns only of course, and the listings report the number of guns that had a failure / total number of guns. So if you bought 6 new (X) guns and 2 had failures, you would post "X Gun 2/6".

Here are the totals reported as of Sep 2011:

Colt 1911..................................66/388
Springfield Armory 1911...............89/293
Dan Wesson 1911.......................18/69
Wilson Combat 1911....................7/56
SIG 1911...................................4/22
S&W 1911..................................7/44
Les Baer 1911.............................7/53
Kimber 1911...............................125/284
Ed Brown 1911............................9/36
Para Ord 1911............................19/44
Rock River Arms 1911...................2/7
Rock Island Arsenal 1911..............17/44
Caspian 1911.............................1/17
Fusion 1911...............................5/16
Charles Daly 1911........................4/8
Nighthawk 1911..........................4/17
Citadel 1911...............................3/6
Taurus 1911...............................7/30
"Other" 1911...............................15/53
STI 1911....................................5/24
Norinco 1911...............................3/9
Auto Ordnance 1911.....................5/9
Llama 1911.................................1/5
Foster 1911................................1/1
AMT 1911...................................4/6


SIG..........................................28/244
Walther.....................................19/60
H&K..........................................4/132
Glock........................................50/480
Springfield Armory.......................8/113
Smith and Wesson.......................24/224
Ruger........................................19/195
Taurus.......................................21/58
Beretta......................................16/146
Makarov.....................................0/14
Kel-Tech....................................29/67
CZ............................................8/75
Browning....................................8/77
Kahr...........................................21/61
IMI (Desert Eagle)........................5/19
H&R...........................................1/5
FN.............................................2/21
Bersa.........................................4/11
Star...........................................3/14
Custom makers.............................0/4
Colt............................................1/22
Davis..........................................1/1
High Standard...............................2/14
Firestar.......................................2/2
Astra..........................................0/1
Luger..........................................1/1
Tokarev.......................................1/2
FEG.............................................1/3
NAA.............................................2/5
Steyr...........................................1/5
EAA.............................................2/4
"Other"(you've never heard of them)..12/20


# of people who have posted..........363
Last edited by BoulderTroll; 09-29-2011 at 09:21 PM

[jocko]

DAMN GREAT REPORT, i WANT A KIMBER 1911 REAL BAD NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bill K]

It hurt my head trying to figure out percentages.

[Popeye]

I look at that list and as I've said many times before I have to be blessed to have a guardian gun angel sitting on my shoulders when I buy guns Because most have been good straight out of the box. Others might have had to have a little break in period but none have ever had long term problems that didn't work themselves out. I'm not usually that lucky.

[jocko]

It hurt my head trying to figure out percentages.

damn sure KIMBERS did not fair well. Wow and they still seem to sell great:banplease:

[muggsy]

Looks like about one third of the Kahrs are experiencing problems. It would be nice to know what the failures were for each particular brand and what the failure rate was post break- in.

[getsome]

Good report but I too would like to know exactly what the issues were....I find it very hard to believe that 25% of Ed Brown's custom pistols had problems and half of Kimbers didn't work either, IMHO those numbers seem a little inflated to me...

[JFootin]

Well, the numbers are so low that you have to take most of this with a chunk of salt, but it is interesting how some of the major players scored real well with a high enough number of respondents to count, such as Beretta, Browning, Colt, CZ, FN, Glock, H&K, Ruger, SIG, S&W, Springfield non 1911s and most high end makers of 1911s. Look at High Standard and Makarov!

AMT 1911..................................4/6…………..67%
Astra.........................................0/1…………..0%
Auto Ordnance 1911...................5/9……………56%
Beretta.....................................16/146……..11%
Bersa........................................4/11…………36%
Browning...................................8/77…………10%
Caspian 1911.............................1/17………….6%
Charles Daly 1911......................4/8……………50%
Citadel 1911..............................3/6…………..50%
Colt..........................................1/22………….4.5%
Colt 1911..................................66/388………17%
Custom makers..........................0/4…………….0%
CZ............................................8/75………….11%
Dan Wesson 1911......................18/69…………26%
Davis........................................1/1…………..100%
EAA..........................................2/4…………….50%
Ed Brown 1911..........................9/36…………..25%
FEG..........................................1/3…………….33%
Firestar.....................................2/2…………..100%
FN............................................2/21………….9.5%
Foster 1911...............................1/1…………..100%
Fusion 1911...............................5/16…………31%
Glock........................................50/480…….10.4%
High Standard............................2/14…………14%
H&K..........................................4/132……….3%
H&R..........................................1/5……………20%
Kahr.........................................21/61………..34.4%
IMI (Desert Eagle)......................5/19………….26%
Kel-Tech...................................29/67…………43%
Kimber 1911.............................125/284…….44%
Les Baer 1911............................7/53………….13%
Llama 1911................................1/5…………..20%
Luger.........................................1/1…………..100%
Makarov.....................................0/14………….0%
NAA...........................................2/5……………40%
Nighthawk 1911..........................4/17………….23.5%
Norinco 1911..............................3/9…………….33%
"Other" 1911..............................15/53…………28%
Para Ord 1911............................19/44…………43%
Rock Island Arsenal 1911.............17/44…………38.6%
Rock River Arms 1911..................2/7…………….28.6%
Ruger........................................19/195……….10%
STI 1911....................................5/24…………..21%
SIG...........................................28/244……….11.5%
SIG 1911...................................4/22…………..18%
Smith and Wesson......................24/224……….11%
S&W 1911..................................7/44………….16%
Springfield Armory.......................8/113………..7%
Springfield Armory 1911..............89/293……….30%
Star...........................................3/14………….21%
Steyr..........................................1/5…………..20%
Taurus........................................21/58……...36%
Taurus 1911................................7/30………..23%
Tokarev.......................................1/2………….50%
Walther......................................19/60……….31.6%
Wilson Combat 1911.....................7/56………..12.5%
"Other"( never heard of them)……...12/20………60%


# of people who have posted......363
Last edited by BoulderTroll; 09-29-2011 at 09:21 PM

[O'Dell]

Yeah, I'll take this with a big chunk of salt just like most things I read on the net. I've seen this before and it certainly does not reflect my personal experiences.

Over the last three or so years, I've bought around 45 guns, a few used, but most new. BTW, one was a Kimber. Of those, exactly three had any sort of problem, and two were so minor and easy to fix, that I hesitate to mention them. The other had to be sent away for work, but that pistol was over thirty years old when I bought it and doesn't even qualify for this list. Interestingly enough, all three of the "problem" guns were expensive short barreled 1911's.

[jocko]

like O'dell, I tend to worry only aqbout the guns that I buy, everyone ielse is on their own.

[TriggerMan]

A guy named BuilderTroll started an informal survey (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=252140) in Dec 2009 on 1911Forum.com to get the skinny on how many guns were perfect right out of the box. ............Last edited by BoulderTroll; 09-29-2011 at 09:21 PMI have some problems with this "informal" survey, starting with the name of the guy who initiated it.:p

There is self selection, in that the poll would only be known to gun forum participants. I suspect, the respondents are dominated by 1911 owners, lovers and shooters, it's on their forum. The question is (1) Are forum participants more critical and negative? (2) Are their expectations markedly different from non forum goers? (3) What expectations and assumtions do 1911 owners/shooters bring to the survey?

There is no differentiation in the nature of the "just out of box" flaws. A failure to drop mags counts as does a Failure to Feed. Is a strong recoil spring which can't be racked by a woman until after 500 rounds a true out of the box failure? What if that same gun is bought by a man who CAN rack it?

There is no differentiation as to the size of the gun. Will failure rates on a 5 " 1911 be the same as on a 3" 1911?

What if upgrading to a quality mag, immediately made the gun 100%. This seems a common Kimber issue.

Was the "failure" experienced using reloads, low powered range ammo or with SD rounds?

There are a lot of questions which can be raised, still fun to read.

[TriggerMan]

like O'dell, I tend to worry only aqbout the guns that I buy, everyone ielse is on their own.That pretty much sums it up for a lot of us.:cool:

[Bawanna]

I've have very good luck with every gun I've ever bought new or used. Only sent two back to the manufacture out of all of them. A Ruger, totally my fault, damn that PO Ackerly and his triplex loads but it was fixed and improved like new for FREE.

The other was my K40 where the slide was peening on the barrel and not going into battery. It too was fixed quickly and FREE also.

Other than those two I've never had one not run. A few like my new MRI were improved with a new spring for the thumb safety but it would no doubt run for a long time with no modifications at all right out of the box.

I've had a lot less grief with guns than I have had with cars, houses, women, and other things in life.

[jocko]

I have some problems with this "informal" survey, starting with the name of the guy who initiated it.:p

There is self selection, in that the poll would only be known to gun forum participants. I suspect, the respondents are dominated by 1911 owners, lovers and shooters, it's on their forum. The question is (1) Are forum participants more critical and negative? (2) Are their expectations markedly different from non forum goers? (3) What expectations and assumtions do 1911 owners/shooters bring to the survey?

There is no differentiation in the nature of the "just out of box" flaws. A failure to drop mags counts as does a Failure to Feed. Is a strong recoil spring which can't be racked by a woman until after 500 rounds a true out of the box failure? What if that same gun is bought by a man who CAN rack it?

There is no differentiation as to the size of the gun. Will failure rates on a 5 " 1911 be the same as on a 3" 1911?

What if upgrading to a quality mag, immediately made the gun 100%. This seems a common Kimber issue.

Was the "failure" experienced using reloads, low powered range ammo or with SD rounds?

There are a lot of questions which can be raised, still fun to read.

polls are just that polls. one finally has to pull his own plug :banplease:

[CJB]

There is no validity to that poll whatsoever. There are no controls on it.

[Tnhillbilly]

Look at that Makarov go!! Ive got 4 of those babys (I only shoot 2 of them though). Never a problem at all..I love the Makarov!!

[jlottmc]

I read a deal on TTAG http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/chris-dumm/nssf-shooting-industry-suffers-from-40-returndefect-rate/ that NSSF says the average rate of return is about 40% right now. Don't know how much I believe that either, cuz there is no way in all Hell that I get that lucky. I've only had one gun that ever had to go back, ever. Just sayin'.