New CM9 Accuracy Issues

[Wayne Nelson]

Hello to everyone! I am new and this is my first thread. I just bought a new CM9, cleaned it and took it to the range today. I fired 200 rounds of Federals 115g FMJ through it. Here is my problem, the gun isn't accurate at all!!! I shot at 5 yards to get some breakin ammo through it. It seems to shoot all over the target. When I reload and shoot again, it may shoot a few rounds 6-8 inches low and right and then scatter the rest. After another reload it may focus some shots in the black area or close to it with a couple strays. I will reload again and it will again be shooting low and then one round might go about 6 inches high from the same aim point. I was beginning to think that it was my lack of shooting skills. In the lane next to me was 2 younger guys shooting about 6-8 different hand guns with 2 different assault type rifles. These guys were pretty good shooting all of those different weapons with some really good groups at 10-15 yards. I asked one of them to come over and shoot my CM9 at the 5 yard line which he did. He fired 6 rounds and the first one was about 2 inches low and right, the next 5 were about 5-6 inches low and right.

Do any of you have any suggestions or ideas what could be wrong with this gun or situation? What I might try to do different? :mad:

[Bawanna]

My first thought after a warm welcome of course is you still need to get used to that trigger. It could be your good shooting neighbor was unfamiliar with it as well and shot poorly.

It's not at all uncommon to not shoot well at first. It's a great trigger but it does take some getting used to.
Also 200 rounds is alot of shooting out of these little guns and a person gets a little tired and sloppy so the results can be less than one would hope for.

I'd try a little dry fire practice at home, get to know it a little better and go back and try again. I really don't think it's a gun issue at this point.

[TriggerMan]

Hello to everyone! I am new and this is my first thread. I just bought a new CM9, cleaned it and took it to the range today. I fired 200 rounds of Federals 115g FMJ through it. Here is my problem, the gun isn't accurate at all!!! I shot at 5 yards to get some breakin ammo through it. It seems to shoot all over the target. When I reload and shoot again, it may shoot a few rounds 6-8 inches low and right and then scatter the rest. After another reload it may focus some shots in the black area or close to it with a couple strays. I will reload again and it will again be shooting low and then one round might go about 6 inches high from the same aim point. I was beginning to think that it was my lack of shooting skills. In the lane next to me was 2 younger guys shooting about 6-8 different hand guns with 2 different assault type rifles. These guys were pretty good shooting all of those different weapons with some really good groups at 10-15 yards. I asked one of them to come over and shoot my CM9 at the 5 yard line which he did. He fired 6 rounds and the first one was about 2 inches low and right, the next 5 were about 5-6 inches low and right.

Do any of you have any suggestions or ideas what could be wrong with this gun or situation? What I might try to do different? :mad:You have just made a case for short striker fired DA triggers, or better yet, a true SA trigger.

Find a guy who shoots a DA revolver well and ask him to test the gun. You could also fire from a rest.

[WilliamG]

Yup. Two words: bench rest.

[CJB]

Third word: Practice.

I'm VERY used to 1911 triggers. It took me several range sessions to get "dialed in".. to get some muscle memory going.

Dry firing at targets helps! Watch your sights as the trigger breaks and releases the striker. Do that often!

[TriggerMan]

Hello to everyone! I am new and this is my first thread. I just bought a new CM9, cleaned it and took it to the range today. I fired 200 rounds of Federals 115g FMJ through it. Here is my problem, the gun isn't accurate at all!!! I shot at 5 yards to get some breakin ammo through it. It seems to shoot all over the target. When I reload and shoot again, it may shoot a few rounds 6-8 inches low and right and then scatter the rest. After another reload it may focus some shots in the black area or close to it with a couple strays. I will reload again and it will again be shooting low and then one round might go about 6 inches high from the same aim point. I was beginning to think that it was my lack of shooting skills. In the lane next to me was 2 younger guys shooting about 6-8 different hand guns with 2 different assault type rifles. These guys were pretty good shooting all of those different weapons with some really good groups at 10-15 yards. I asked one of them to come over and shoot my CM9 at the 5 yard line which he did. He fired 6 rounds and the first one was about 2 inches low and right, the next 5 were about 5-6 inches low and right.

Do any of you have any suggestions or ideas what could be wrong with this gun or situation? What I might try to do different? :mad:PM Sent

[Mattkcc]

My CM9 is surprisingly accurate and keeps up with my Glocks until the distance is greater then 15 yards. But the trigger takes getting use to, you pull the trigger and where you think it should go bang it doesn't. This can cause a flinch, you have to think in terms of follow through. Fire the gun slow fire from a rest to see how accurate it is. Also the sights are different with that bar on the back sight, I found it distracting and blacked it out. My eye would want to focus on the back sight rather then the front. At five yards your gun physically can't shoot that badly, even if the bullets were tumbling they would be hitting pretty close.

[Wayne Nelson]

Thank you guys! Maybe I'll try the bench rest next time and see if my pattern tightens up. It seemed that when I held the gun tightly it shot lower and all over the place than when I tried holding it looser. How can these guys that I see on the web shoot their Kahrs as fast as they can pull the trigger and still hit their small targets? Wouldn't that kind of take away any trigger pull/squeeze theory? At 5 yards, I probably had as much as one foot seperating some holes. The next time that I go to the range, I'll see if I can find someone either an employee or someone shooting who is familiar with tha Kahr trigger and have them shoot my gun and see how well they do with it.

[jocko]

two things:

#1 let a good shooter try the gun at 5 yards to see if he can duplicate ur results

#2 buy some snap caps and throw a half dozen in with 30 good rounds and let someone load ur magaqzine so u know not if u have one or 5 snap caps in that magazine. I think you will see first hand what is now gong on.

My bet and thoghts are it is all shooter related. Before getting panicky and blaming the gun or anything else, u need to eliminate the shooter part of it. A good other shooter can do this with ease...

[Wayne Nelson]

Good morning! I just noticed something on my CM9 this morning. Maybe yours does the same, can you take the end of your slide by the barrel end and move the slide up and down? I can move the end of the slide almost 1/16" up and down and the barrel moves with it.

[KMA]

Hello to everyone! I am new and this is my first thread. I just bought a new CM9, cleaned it and took it to the range today. I fired 200 rounds of Federals 115g FMJ through it. Here is my problem, the gun isn't accurate at all!!! I shot at 5 yards to get some breakin ammo through it. It seems to shoot all over the target. When I reload and shoot again, it may shoot a few rounds 6-8 inches low and right and then scatter the rest. After another reload it may focus some shots in the black area or close to it with a couple strays. I will reload again and it will again be shooting low and then one round might go about 6 inches high from the same aim point. I was beginning to think that it was my lack of shooting skills. In the lane next to me was 2 younger guys shooting about 6-8 different hand guns with 2 different assault type rifles. These guys were pretty good shooting all of those different weapons with some really good groups at 10-15 yards. I asked one of them to come over and shoot my CM9 at the 5 yard line which he did. He fired 6 rounds and the first one was about 2 inches low and right, the next 5 were about 5-6 inches low and right.

Do any of you have any suggestions or ideas what could be wrong with this gun or situation? What I might try to do different? :mad:



People very often buy sub-compact handguns without realizing that shooting a sub is not the same thing than shooting a full-sized pistol. The guys you talk about were perhaps very good shooting other firearms, but probably they had never shot a CM9 before. Kahrs are very accurate firearms; I think you just need to give it more time and practice more.

[MW surveyor]

Good morning! I just noticed something on my CM9 this morning. Maybe yours does the same, can you take the end of your slide by the barrel end and move the slide up and down? I can move the end of the slide almost 1/16" up and down and the barrel moves with it.

First off, I don't have a CM9 but do have a CW9. My barrel moves up and down when I move slide up and down when the gun is in battery. I do not think that this is your problem.

As the others have suggested, get some more time with the gun and the trigger. If you have never fired a double action before, it does take some getting used to. Snap caps are a very good idea for dry fire practice. Also, do some real slow pulls at first, then try it faster.

A lot of time, low shots are the result of trying to see where the shot went just before pulling the trigger (anticipation). Try to follow through with the shot, just like shooting a bow.

[bufford]

+1 on all of the above. I have owned several Kahr & pretty much "Know" the trigger... but last night I shot my CM9, then my PM40 and it took me a full mag to get in the black with the 40. I was all over the place. Another thing is grip. If you hold it really tight you will probably shoot low. Grip it firmly, then I tend to relax my right thumb and the rounds start hitting the target

[muggsy]

My CM9 has no play at the rear of the slide and I've put about 400 rounds through it. It's one of the tightest semi-auto pistols that I've ever owned. Anticipating recoil and tightening your grip just prior to let off will cause the low left scenario. Try watching this video on trigger control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE&lr=1

[jocko]

if ur expecting 1" GROUPS, u bought the wrong gun, the gun can do it, just that most shooters cannot. U are shooting a gun with a 3/8" trigger travel,not a single action style 1911. Ur shoting a gun that is smaller than about any other 9mm made, all this adds up to alot more rounds down range to get decent with it.

snap caps help alot but if u will do whatI suggest by having someone installsome snap caps in the magazine with some live rounds,it will show ur ills really fast.

Just having snap caps in a gun, IMO really doesn't produce the bangthing that cause shooters to flinch, or peek. Practicing with snap caps only is a false sense of praqctice, for u already know that NOTHBIG is going to happen when u pull the trigger. Nothing beats the bang thing and recoil thing. snap caps don't eliminbate the peeking thig or the anticipation of the bang thing, for u already know that nothinbg like tha tis going to happen. just my 2 cents.

[Patriot Prepper]

I have fired over 200 rounds to break it in. But my CM9 was accurate from day one and the first shot. It is also reliable - no issues or problems with the gun. Fired accurate and reliable every time.

There may be something wrong with the gun or you are just not used to shooting it (as others have commented).

My slide does not move up and down. Maybe you have a bad gun. Did you disassemble it to clean it? Maybe it is not assembled properly.

Sorry you are having a bad experience. It really sucks when a gun does not perform. Hope you can solve the issues.

[Wayne Nelson]

Thanks to all of you for trying to educate me with my CM9. I contacted Kahr today and had a conversation with Jay. Great fellow!!!! He said that it is normal for the slide to have some play/movement up in the front. He also suggested what some of you have already suggested for me to try, to bench rest shoot it and see if it groups better. (operator error?) If it still shoots all over the place to give him a call back. I'm sure that it is probably more of the operator than the gun, but we'll see what the results are after a bench test. I would still like to find someone who owns a Kahr and have them shoot it for another elimination of a cause.

I really appreciate all of your help with my problem. You guys are great!!!! Thank you!!!

[pocket pistol]

Should you dry fire the CM9 without a snap cap. I do this with my LCP but I didn't know it was OK to do it with my Kahr. I don't want to damage the firing pin...

[Wayne Nelson]

***RANGE UPDATE***

I went to the range the other day to try out a few of your comments and recommendations on shooting the CM9.

FIRST I tried different holds with the gun and noticed that I CAN NOT hold the gun with a firm or tight hold. When I grip it firmly, at 5 yards with a bench rest, it will shoot real low about 5 inches. When I hold it loosely, it will hit up by the black circle. SECOND Sometimes after I do a reload, the grouping will move to a different place on the target using the bench rest and the same hold. I don't know why this is happening??? THIRD I also noticed that I can now "rock" the top of the slide back and forth from side to side a little and that I can move the slide up and down in the front and at the rear. I wonder if that movement could change my POI?

[jocko]

***RANGE UPDATE***

I went to the range the other day to try out a few of your comments and recommendations on shooting the CM9.

FIRST I tried different holds with the gun and noticed that I CAN NOT hold the gun with a firm or tight hold. When I grip it firmly, at 5 yards with a bench rest, it will shoot real low about 5 inches. When I hold it loosely, it will hit up by the black circle. SECOND Sometimes after I do a reload, the grouping will move to a different place on the target using the bench rest and the same hold. I don't know why this is happening??? THIRD I also noticed that I can now "rock" the top of the slide back and forth from side to side a little and that I can move the slide up and down in the front and at the rear. I wonder if that movement could change my POI?

and u wanna see what ur doing wrong, but a half dozen snap caps and thrwo them in with 30 rounds of regular ammo and let another person load ur magazine so u don't know if one or 5 or no snap caps ar ein that magazine. Trust me it will show your shooting ills really fast. I wantto think that atthis time u might be partially blaming the gun for shooting so bad, which is understandable. This drill will show things really fast:blah:

anyone can sit inb thier home and dry fire a gun or even have snap caps in thegun, but also if u know they are snap caps or dry firing produces no bang thing, there isd a big big difference.

[Dueeast]

This may help.

[mudfish]

Trigger control. You need to work on yours. Once your brain and your body figure out how to work together to:
1) align the sights
2) pull the trigger directly to the rear, and
3) do both at the same time...

You will be able to shoot ANY gun well the first time you pick it up. Slow fire of course. Old military rifles, tiny pistols, saturday night specials, they all work the same. You align the sights and you pull the trigger and you do both at the same time.

My PM40 is exceptionally accurate, as was my P9 before it.

[mudfish]

The above chart is only a reference. Most of the time you're just pulling the trigger without making sure the sights are aligned. Discipline your trigger finger.

You should be able to put all 6-7 shots in a cluster the size of a quarter at 5 yards when you're focusing on accuracy in slow fire.

[Wayne Nelson]

How tight do you all hold your CM9? When I give a firm hold with both hands "BENCH RESTING" all of the shots will go low about 4-5 inches at 5 yards. The first time that I shot it using a bench rest, I had the first 4 shots make a one hole and the fifth was about exactly 1/2" just to the left of the 4 one holes. The last 2 shots I moved the top of the slide in line with the rear sights to shoot higher, Then the last 2 shots hit about 1/4" apart but still low of the center of the black just touching it on the bottom. The black is about a 2-1/2" dia. circle. Now that sounds like a pretty good group of 7 shots to me.

Then I tried some different holds from a bench rest, firm, tight, loose. When I held the gun real loose but firm enough to keep a grip on it, the holes moved up in the black. Out of 7 shots, 4 were in the black, 2 were just outside the black and one was about 4" to the left and high. Then I tried to shoot it with just a 2 hand grip standing with a loose grip and I could put 3 or 4 holes out of 7 in the black and the rest I won't talk about. So I think that my shooting skills have much improved from the very first time with this gun. But it seems that when it is held with a firm hold with both hands like others do, it shoots really low.

I had an experienced shooter also shoot 5 rounds through it and all of his holes were also 4-5 inches low and to the right. All of his holes were about a few inches apart and on the same horizontal. He couldn't answer why. He also gave it a firm 2 handed hold like he holds all of his other hand guns.

Should a looser hold be the normal for this gun or should it be held with a firm grip like others are teaching/preaching? CONFUSED!!!!!!!!

[Wayne Nelson]

Here is another thing that is kind of strange. I had a decent group going with one full magazine, holding it loosely on a bench rest. I reloaded and continued to shoot with the same bench rest with the same loose hold and all of my holes moved to the left of the black about 1 or 2 inches away from the edge of the black. They were maybe about 3 inches spread apart all vertical. I really tried to concentrate on doing the shooting functions and took my time but they moved to the left for some strange reason. It was like something moved after I did a reload.

I wish that I could post some pictures of the targets for you all to look at but I am not allowed to post attachments.

I really appreciate all of your comments trying to help me out with my problems!

[QuercusMax]

I feel your pain, Wayne (sorry 'bout that).

When I first got my MK9 I felt like the safest place for any observers to stand was behind whatever target I was aiming at! :mad: My little Kahr was just so different from all my previous experiences that it made me wonder what the heck was going on.

Fortunately lots of people chimed in with advice that I found helpful: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8290

[TriggerMan]

Here is another thing that is kind of strange. I had a decent group going with one full magazine, holding it loosely on a bench rest. I reloaded and continued to shoot with the same bench rest with the same loose hold and all of my holes moved to the left of the black about 1 or 2 inches away from the edge of the black. They were maybe about 3 inches spread apart all vertical. I really tried to concentrate on doing the shooting functions and took my time but they moved to the left for some strange reason. It was like something moved after I did a reload.

I wish that I could post some pictures of the targets for you all to look at but I am not allowed to post attachments.

I really appreciate all of your comments trying to help me out with my problems!

Please review in order:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQgLmQl1zDw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6QxRRcYlak&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSsHgVdauZI

Review again, an hour before going to the range.

[bandrich]

WOW Todd Jarrett is one heck of a shot that is for sure. I will listen to him.

[Wayne Nelson]

I watched all of those videos that you guys sent me so I may go to the range again tomorrow and try out some of those different holds and new techniques to see if I can improve myself with this gun. I am starting to give in to myself and accept that I may be only as good as I am going to get with this CM9.
I figure if I can punch holes anywhere in an 8-1/2" x 11" target at 10 yards, that would good enough to stop an attacker. I never tried to shoot it at 10 yards yet but I'll give it whirl.

I'll give a range report when I get back tomorrow. Wish me luck!!

[TriggerMan]

You generally can't shoot an attacker until he is inside 21 feet (7 yards). If he also has a firearm AND is a threat all distance bets are off.

80% of all shooting incidents are at well under 21 feet, the most common distance I've heard is 8 feet or less.

With small carry guns, I never practice any farther than 15 feet. Best to learn how to point shoot, shoot one handed with either hand, shoot from a close retention position, and shoot with two eyes open. Being good at 10 yards with one eye shut and having both hands on your gun is missing the point of defensive carry. I'm working on the other four skills I mentioned.

[Wayne Nelson]

Well, I went to the rang today and fired 100 rounds through the CM9. I did some standing and some bench resting. The first couple clips free hand were all over the target but stayed within an 8-1/2" x 11" target at 7 yards. My first bench rest mostly shot low about 4-5 inches at 7 yards aiming at the center of the black. This gun DOES shoot low!!! The tighter that it is held the lower it will shoot. When I hold it loose it starts to shoot higher. I actually have to put the back sites just on top of the barrell to get it to shoot in the black. After I started holding it loose and raised my POI I started putting holes in the black (2-1/4" dia. circle) 12 out of 16 shots.
My free hand still needs some more work but it has also improved quite a bit.

I am going to contact Kahr and see what they have to say about it shooting low. No matter what I try, it always shoots low. Another guy shot it and it shot low for him also about 4-5 inches at 5 yards. I'm 100% sure that it is the gun that shoots low. Even my low shots when I aim at the center of the black all have a grouping, but all low.

[paperpuncher]

Kahr has to have different height rear sights.

I didn't notice, are they numbered?

My wife has a P238, I was 100% convinced that it shot 6 inches low until I let my son shoot it, who proceeded to put 6 dead bulleye almost through one another at 7 yards.

I'm just saying is all.

[evnash]

i just recently bought a CM9. it took a mag or so to get used to the trigger but now i can put all 7 shots in one ragged hole at 5 yards.

you just need to practice. alot!

[yqtszhj]

Kahr has to have different height rear sights.

I didn't notice, are they numbered?

My wife has a P238, I was 100% convinced that it shot 6 inches low until I let my son shoot it, who proceeded to put 6 dead bulleye almost through one another at 7 yards.

I'm just saying is all.

Man I know that feeling. I have a Beretta 92 that I thought had sights that were low and left. I let my son shoot it at 7 yards and he made a clover leaf dead center of the bullseye. The problem was ME :eek:.

[Wayne Nelson]

This question is for EVNASH in post #36, when you aim at your target at 5 yards, do you put the white dot on the front site just on top of the rear dot so the top of the front and rear sites are even across the top? Are you bench resting or 2 handed?

Now, at 5 yards I can shoot a decent group but if I put the sites where they are suppose to be on the target, even at 7 yards or 10 yards, the group will all be 4-5 inches below my aim point. I tried many different hand holds, tight grip etc. and it will always shoot low until I hold it loose with my left hand under my right not touching the gun and put the POI higher on the target. I actually put the bottom of the front site on the barrell on target and that is where my POI will be. That goes for a 2 handed grip or a bench rest, it doesn't matter. I do think the barrell is pointing downwards. After 500 rounds through it now, that issue has not gone away or changed. A couple of different experienced shooters both were all hitting about 4 inches low and right as well.

[Wayne Nelson]

I was going to return the CM9 to the factory for accuracy issues but after talking to Jay, he said that they would not pay for the return shipping. I explained to him that whatever I try and do it always shoots about 4 inches low at 5 and 7 yards. Nice groups but all low. I have to raise the front site to the very bottom of the site, top of the barell, to get it to put the POI in or around the 3-1/4 inch black. I also have to hold the gun REEEAAAALLL loose or else it will again shoot low.

I boxed up the gun and checked out the cost to send it back to the factory, WOW!!! about $65 for next day Air!!!! I decided against sending it back and said that I would either sell it or trade it for a different brand of gun. Done with Kahr!

I always clean it after shooting it so it is always ready for the next outing. The other day I took it to the range for one last attempt of shooting it and putting 100 rounds through it. I could not believe what was happening, it was actually shooting at 25 feet like there was never anything wrong. I was aiming it like it was made to be aimed and I put 25 out of 29 shots in a 3-1/4" circle at 25 feet shooting free hand. All 25 holes were grouped 2-1/8" horz. by 3-1/8" vert. C to C. The 4 that scattered about 4" low happened when I held the gun too tight.

The only thing that I could think of what I did different was I used a gun grease in addition to the spray that I always use on the slide contact points when I clean it. Could that have made it change the POI??? I am going to try it one more time using the same grease and see if it repeats and shoots the same way that it did the last time at the range. If it does, I will keep it!!

I will post again when I find out the results.

[U.S. Patriot]

Sounds like an issue with trigger control. With a DA trigger, you really have to focus on trigger squeeze. If you slap the trigger, your shots will be all over the place. I reccomend you dry fire when at home. Here is a trick that may help you. Take a penny and rest it on the front site. If the penny falls when you squezze the trigger, then you need to focus more on your trigger control. You can also just put a loaded round on top of the slide as well for the same affect.

[JFootin]

+1. ^ Also, unlearn any patterns of staging the trigger or anticipating a release point. Do the above and develop a smooth continuous stroke from rest until the trigger stops moving, knowing that it will fire near the end of that stroke, but keeping the pull continuous through that point.

And don't forget to let the trigger come all the way back to rest because it does not have a short reset - again, like a DA revolver.

[TriggerMan]

I was going to return the CM9 to the factory for accuracy issues but after talking to Jay, he said that they would not pay for the return shipping. I explained to him that whatever I try and do it always shoots about 4 inches low at 5 and 7 yards. Nice groups but all low. I have to raise the front site to the very bottom of the site, top of the barell, to get it to put the POI in or around the 3-1/4 inch black. I also have to hold the gun REEEAAAALLL loose or else it will again shoot low.

I boxed up the gun and checked out the cost to send it back to the factory, WOW!!! about $65 for next day Air!!!! I decided against sending it back and said that I would either sell it or trade it for a different brand of gun. Done with Kahr!

I always clean it after shooting it so it is always ready for the next outing. The other day I took it to the range for one last attempt of shooting it and putting 100 rounds through it. I could not believe what was happening, it was actually shooting at 25 feet like there was never anything wrong. I was aiming it like it was made to be aimed and I put 25 out of 29 shots in a 3-1/4" circle at 25 feet shooting free hand. All 25 holes were grouped 2-1/8" horz. by 3-1/8" vert. C to C. The 4 that scattered about 4" low happened when I held the gun too tight.

The only thing that I could think of what I did different was I used a gun grease in addition to the spray that I always use on the slide contact points when I clean it. Could that have made it change the POI??? I am going to try it one more time using the same grease and see if it repeats and shoots the same way that it did the last time at the range. If it does, I will keep it!!

I will post again when I find out the results.Wayne, it was never the gun and its not the grease. Sorry to be blunt.

I'm gonna assume you never got a professional shooting instructor. It's still a good idea to spend 30 minutes with one. Its money well spent for a lifetime of good fundamentals. Use the $65 you saved. :)

[jocko]

what happene dto waynse now is tha the has adjusted to his kahr, not kahr adjusting to him. guns can't alk or they woul tell us owners really fast what we are doing wrong. It takes time to ge the hang our a kahrs loooooong but smooth trigger system. they ain't target guns but they will save ur life when needed. They will shoot in thge same hole IF U CAN DO YOUR PART. Trigger man is dead right, it was never the gun or the grease but kudos to you wayne for not taking the total negatrive atrtitude and blaming the gun and peddling it becuase you could not shoot it the way u wanted. Tht being said if you buy ANY guna d can't make it do what you think it should do in YOURHANDS, THEN BEST PEDDLE IT AND MOVE ON. We always blame the gun, as guns can
't talk back. 99.995% of the time it is shooter error. I have over 32K+ rounds out of my PM9 and at 7 yards my groups are not good at all. IT IS ME andnot the gun, I know that, I accept that. We are not all like Todd Jarrett, some of us refuse to accept that statement to. One does not buy any gun and just expect to shoot um in thesame hole, sight pictures for every guns could and many tmes is different. Different strokes for different shooters.


Stick a half dozen snap caps in with 30 rounds of ammo and let someone load yhour magazines so u knownot whether thereis one, 3 or none of the snap caps in that magazine and I can absolutely assure you, it will show ur shooting ways real fast. Dry firing at home is good but it doeks't compare tothis drill as dry firingt never produces the BANG thng and that is what flitching is asll about, ANTICIPATION OF THE BANG THING..

Practice DOES NOTMAKE PERFECT, BUT PERFECT PRACTICE DOES.:cheer2:

[carkarrier]

I have to agree with Triggermans post. You should be concentrating on point shooting at 15 to 25 feet. You will need to focus on the target, let your weapon come naturally up in front of your face and fire without trying to concentrate on the sights. If you want to aim and shoot 2 inch groups, you need to get a target pistol, not a small defense pistol. Of course this is my OPINION. I am sure some of the guys will disagree, but I have qualified over the years in LE with everything from Smith model 10 bull barrel(no sights) to a Glock 23 which I carry now(has sights--I think). If you develop a good point shooting rhythm, you will be surprised how accurate you can shoot within a reasonable distance. When the BG appears, looking for sights will get you DOA. Like I said, my OPINION.

[jocko]

carkarrier and tucson, ur posts are right on target and damn without sights to...!!

[Wayne Nelson]

Thank you guys for all your comments! All taken to heart! I understand and agree with what all of you are saying. I know that it sounds like the shooter and not the gun, but believe me when I say that this gun will change it's POI even after just a reload. Something changes and I don't know what or why. I have fired over 600 rounds through this gun and it sometimes acts like it is a different gun when I pick it up. Even when it changes it's POI, the groups are all pretty good but in a different location. The last time that I fired it at the range, my freehand shooting was just about as good as my bench firing at 25 feet. This gun also likes to be held with a loose grip or else it will shoot low with a firm grip cupped with 2 hands. Oh yah! My slide is loose. It will actually rattle if I shake it hard enough and it will move up and down if I lift up on it and I can rock it back and forth from the top. Maybe this has something to do with it changing it's POI from one reload to another????

I am very happy with my CM9 right now as of the other day. I have learned alot listening to you guys and like you all say "practice". I know that this is not a target pistol and I wasn't expecting it to be. I only want to be able to maybe hit a 6" diameter target at 25 feet and I will call it good.

I remember reading in some threads that some guns like being really wet to shoot well and others it doesn't matter. Maybe that gun grease made the slide a little smoother to operate and that made it shoot better the other day? I know that some of you will disagree with that theory but but the other day most of the 100 rounds that went through it were right on and I didn't change anything from the previous time.

Oh well! I'll see what happens the next time at the range, I greased it again after my cleaning. Oh, I forgot to mention that when I cleaned it this time, there was alot of very small metal filings like gold dust. I wonder if all of that could have been from the amunition? I fired 100 rounds of Federal ammo from WalMart and 7 rounds of Winchester Bonded +P 124 GR Personal Protection. (I fired the +P first)

[MW surveyor]

Gold dust=Ammo

[Wayne Nelson]

I am going to keep the CM9 now for awhile regardless of the accuracy or shooter issues. In a year or two, I might add another to my small collection. I am going to look at the new Sig P938 (9mm) that looks exactly like the P238 380mm but just a tad larger to accomodate the larger round. It is also a SA just like a 1911 or the P238. Best to wait until the first generations have gone through their little problems using us to find them and send them back for modifications. I asked at my Gun Range (Bills Gun Shop and Shooting Range in Circle Pines, MN) if they had any yet or planning to have any soon and he said that it would probably be about 2 years before they get any. I think that they will be on the market for around $600 when they first come out.

[Wayne Nelson]

Thank you "TucsonMTB" for your kind words!!