My new to me PM45 issues [Archive]

Tibu

01-19-2012, 09:25 AM

Hello,

First post on the forum. I wish the topic would be about how my PM45 is functioning flawlessly, but that is not the case. My main problem is that the gun seems to always have an FTE when I try to clear a chambered round with the mag out. The bullet seems to get stuck sideways in between the feed ramp and the striker face. I already performed most of the recommended "fixes" stated in the tech forum. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the extractor or barrel/feed ramp. To clear the round, I have to wiggle the gun while tilting it back or to the side. The round usually drops through the magwell. I'm assuming this is not normal right?

My second issue is that I get the exact same FTE on the third round fired while practicing with Federal 230gr FMJ. I have to wiggle the gun while tilting it to the side in order to clear the spent casing. This issue seems to be limited to the Federal ammo as it doesn't happen while practicing with Hornady 185gr FTX Critical Defense.

My question is if there is anything specific that I can do in order to remedy the issue without sending the gun to the factory. I can redo the sanding/polishing specified in the tech section as I really only did it lightly. Any help will be appreciated. Pics to follow:

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d7c53-34a1-e58b.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d7c53-34c3-1acc.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d7c53-34da-9e0e.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d7c53-34ee-e5dd.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d7c53-3501-129b.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d7c53-355e-df2e.jpg

gb6491

01-19-2012, 01:18 PM

Tibu,
Welcome to the forums:)
As to the issues with your PM45:
First off, I don't have a PM/CM size Kahr, so I'm talking out of school here.
Two, Kahr pistols in generally benefit from having the slide worked smartly when ejecting unfired rounds.
Beyond that: in your photos, it appears the rim of the case is below the ejector and that the slide is not fully rearward. Is this true?
Regards,
Greg

wyntrout

01-19-2012, 01:24 PM

I just got a Federal Champion 230-grain FMJ and tried it in my PM45.

To start, I always remove the magazine, turn the pistol to the right and then rack the slide to eject the unfired round. It requires a full rack to the rear and I've never had a problem doing this.

If you want to hold the pistol upright, it requires a brisk, full rack. If you don't do a hard rack, the round will fall through the empty magwell or get stuck sometimes, as you experienced.

Falling through the magwell is not uncommon and usually, or always, occurs when the pistol is fired without a magazine... don't catch the fired case... hot! I found this out when clearing the rare malfunction or hard primer(?)

The third round not ejecting... I don't know about that. Have you checked that all springs are oriented properly... free end of mag spring to the front of the magazine... the recoil spring seated with the open end to the front... is there a notch in the lower part of the slide's recoil spring "tube" to the front?

Notch photo of PM9 which has a more robust notch... the semi-circular area between the upper part of the slide where the barrel goes and the lower where the recoil spring is inserted. Some pistols didn't get this "notch" machined and there was a problem in cycling as the barrel moves back and down, followed by the recoil spring assembly.

Wynn:)

O.M.G.!! There's a chip missing on the front left rail in the frame!! :D

http://www.kahr.com/faq.asp#q24 FAQ 23 & 24 address this.

Tibu

01-19-2012, 02:04 PM

Thank you both for the information. The slide is not fully rearward in the photos. When the round gets stuck the slide is at that position and I encounter resistance to get the slide fully rearward. It is entirely possible that I am not pulling the slide hard enough when there is no mag in the gun. My gun does indeed have the notch in the metal rails.

I'll see if I can eject the round tonight by really manhandling that slide. I now fully understand why Tactical Tim complained about the gun not having the slide serrations all the way up! Hehe. I'm used to the slide of my Beretta 92FS which I could eject the round with just two fingers.

Tibu

01-20-2012, 03:49 PM

wyntrout

01-20-2012, 05:51 PM

gb6491

01-20-2012, 07:44 PM

Just wanted to add that no matter how hard I rack the slide with the mag out and a round chambered, the gun locks up. It seems there are a few others with this same problem. I'll probably end up sending it to Kahr. Not sure if it is still under warranty though... Anyway to find out without calling them?
Reading this and looking at the photos, it seems as if the round is slipping down and out of the extractor (or at least low enough that the ejector isn't getting a good kick) without the magazine in place to give support. I'd ask if CS if they will send you a new extractor and spring.
Regards,
Greg

Tibu

01-22-2012, 02:37 PM

The "notch" I'm referring to is the one on the left... top left. There's a necessary notch between where the barrel goes and the recoil spring assembly is seated in the front of the slide.

The one on the right is an alignment notch for manufacturing and often elicits questions from newbies about damaged rails... I was "joking" about that with the OMG! This is explained in the manual and at the F.A.Q.'s on Kahr.com.

Wynn:)

My slide does have the notch, albeit in a much smaller radius than the picture you posted. http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-7075-967c.jpg

I went back out to the range and fired 200 rounds of Remington 230gr green box and Blazer 230gr practice ammo. Even after polishing/breaking the recess in the barrel opening and the barre hood, the gun still had about 2 FTE's per 25 rounds. It did not matter if it was Remington or Blazer ammo.

http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-716b-5134.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-71a4-bd10.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-71b8-b5c9.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-71ee-c4e3.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-71ff-b43c.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-7228-09bd.jpg

I think there definitely is a serious problem with the extractor and/or barrel feed/extract surfaces. Since I made the mistake of temporarily having this gun as my only one, I'll have to go and buy a replacement if I have to send it in.

I'll probably get a Glock 30sf or Glock 36 while this one is out for repairs. Kinda mad that a $900 gun has these issues, but that's the way it is.

wyntrout

01-22-2012, 02:56 PM

Yes, the PM45 notch seems like an afterthought when compared to the PM9. That's why I said more robust.

I guess you need to email Kahr Customer Service and send some of these pictures in the email.

It sucks that you'll have to send off your CCW pistol and Kahr should pay for the trip both ways. The gun is unsafe for CCW and unusable in that state.

Good luck. I know it can be frustrating to have a new gun need service before it's reliable or safe to carry, especially for life or death protection.

I certainly had a few problems with mine... four trips back... one to replace the crappy, faintly engraved replacement slide, but I finally did get it reliable for CCW. I think that every part of the pistol was replaced at least once... including the frame.

Wynn:)

gb6491

01-22-2012, 03:03 PM

...I went back out to the range and fired 200 rounds of Remington 230gr green box and Blazer 230gr practice ammo. Even after polishing/breaking the recess in the barrel opening and the barre hood, the gun still had about 2 FTE's per 25 rounds. It did not matter if it was Remington or Blazer ammo. ...
http://img.tapatalk.com/462dee6d-71ff-b43c.jpg
...I think there definitely is a serious problem with the extractor and/or barrel feed/extract surfaces. Since I made the mistake of temporarily having this gun as my only one, I'll have to go and buy a replacement if I have to send it in.

I'll probably get a Glock 30sf or Glock 36 while this one is out for repairs. Kinda mad that a $900 gun has these issues, but that's the way it is.
By this photo, it looks like you are having some kind of issue with your slide stop (or associated parts). The stop looks like it has been pushed out of the frame. You might want to check the spring for damage or that the screw is tightened down sufficiently.
Regards,
Greg

wyntrout

01-22-2012, 03:14 PM

Good catch there, Greg. That little spring can cause lots of problems and maybe all you need is a new one, or tightening the "old" one. Those things are easily damaged on insertion of the slide stop pin. There are good pictures and a video at Kahr.com about takedown and re-assembly, with emphasis on that very important spring. It holds the pin in place and keeps the lever down until the magazine is empty and overcomes the springs downward pressure on the "ledge" inside of the slide lock lever.

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM45.asp

The slide lock spring is a nice spare part to have on hand.

Wynn:)

wyntrout

01-22-2012, 03:23 PM

Pictures of PM45 slide lock and spring here on post#18:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2247&highlight=slide+lock+spring&page=2

Wynn:)

TriggerMan

01-23-2012, 12:12 AM

Just wanted to add that no matter how hard I rack the slide with the mag out and a round chambered, the gun locks up. It seems there are a few others with this same problem. I'll probably end up sending it to Kahr. Not sure if it is still under warranty though... Anyway to find out without calling them?Warranty is five years to the original owner. Shipping is not included but at Kahr's discretion. If you end up paying, figure $61 one way

Tibu

01-26-2012, 02:35 PM

Just wanted to update that I sent the gun to Kahr. CS responded almost immediately to my email and was very helpful. I'm kinda pissed that I didn't get a prepaid label but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they couldn't provide one because I live in Puerto Rico.

I'm hoping the turn around isn't too long as I am currently CCW-less.

jocko

01-26-2012, 02:38 PM

WMD

01-26-2012, 05:46 PM

I would say that was probably the reason to. .. What u might do is call kahr and run it by them that it would be niceof them to throw in a free magazine being u had to pay thye return shipping when it was well under warranty. U only hae a phone callto waste, or even jpossable an email refering to the gun being there etc .

they do seem pretty good about helping out..

Jocko, If he is not the original owner of the gun it is not under warranty. (Although, I am guessing Kahr will probably fix it for zip) Not sure why Kahr would have to give him a free mag. (glad you never worked in my retail store!) ;) :D:D

jocko

01-26-2012, 06:26 PM

Bawanna

01-26-2012, 06:28 PM

I must have missed that first owner stuff, no doubt u would have fired me before the ink got dry, course I would have problaby quit first. I could nto work for anyone who avitars is a photo of M. Jackson and who rides a damn trumper!!!!

Seriously dude, you need to get out more. That ain't Jackson, that's Willie Wonka man.........

The British are coming, the British are coming. One if by Triumph, Two if by wooden sail boat.

jocko

01-26-2012, 06:31 PM

willie wonka my ass!!! u got some of that wheel chair grease on ur eye balls!!!! I probably do need to get out more. I thinjk I might take a nice ride tomorrow right after I mail some a--hole a fresh horse head!!

Tibu

02-16-2012, 01:04 PM

Well I got the gun back from Kahr. They replaced the slide stop, recoil spring assembly and both mags. They also polished the feed ramp. I haven't been able to test the gun yet but at least I can unload an unfired round without the gun jamming up. I was surprised they didn't touch the ejector. The slide is mega stiff right now since the recoil spring is new.

I do have two new issues I didn't have before. First, I can't for the life of me engage the slide stop without an empty mag in the gun in order to lock the slide back. I literally tried with all my strength to push up the slide stop while pulling the slude back and it just would not lock it back.

The other is that one of the plastic slide guides has been all chewed/chipped. I'm pretty sure the gun was not like this when I sent it to them. However, I'm not certain this will affect the functioning of the gun.

Any ideas on why I can't seem to lock the slide back using the slide stop without a mag in the gun?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v428/Tibu/c704bdd8.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/a6937d26-528c-55b8.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/a6937d26-529f-240d.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/a6937d26-52bf-d426.jpg

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http://img.tapatalk.com/a6937d26-530e-91b9.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/a6937d26-532e-31a3.jpg

wyntrout

02-16-2012, 01:23 PM

The plastic rails are just there to guide the slide into place. Just carefully trim them as needed... just cosmetic, but the shavings can build up and cause problems.

These tiny, compact pistols are tightly fitted and need strong springs. It just takes some practice and strength. I hold the pistol in my gun hand with my thumb on the slide lock lever as I use an over-hand hold with my left and simultaneously push back with the left hand and forward with the right until I can push the lever up and engage the slide lock. I have my hands and the pistol closer to my chest, giving me a better grip.

Easiest method is to insert an empty mag, then rack the slide back, whereupon the slide lock should engage, then remove the empty magazine... whatever it takes.

Good luck and safe shooting.

Wynn:)

Tibu

02-17-2012, 09:36 PM

I tried to unload the gun in order to give it a good cleaning before I go to the range and test it tomorrow.

The round (Speer Gold Dot 230 +P) was ejected halfway before getting stuck between the slide and striker face. I tried again and this time the round got jammed without even getting halfway out. Didn't take pictures as I was/am pissed off.

If the gun keeps getting FTE's tomorrow at the range, I'll trade it in at my nearest gunshop and wait till the Springfield XDs .45 comes out and have that as my main carry piece. Hopefully the reviews are good, otherwise I'll stop screwing around and get a Glock 36. Sigh...

I'll update tomorrow.

Tibu

02-19-2012, 12:18 PM

Got back from the range. The gun has the same or worse issues except that that slide stop doesn't work itself out of the gun anymore.

However, the gun now has fairly frequent stove pipes in horizontal and vertical flavors. I also experienced about 2-3 FTF were the slide stayed back and I had to manually work the slide in order to get the round to feed. This was all with factory American Eagle and Remington 230gr ammo.

Needless to say, I am way pissed off. It makes me think they didn't even test the gun properly before sending it to me. This is definitely not what I expected from a supposedly quality made in USA handgun. I'm out $40 on shipping and gun is in arguably worse shape than before.

I can't in good conscience sell this to another person in this state. My local shop offered me $250 for it; but I'd rather keep it as a paper weight than accept that offer.

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d3a2e-3ba3-1edd.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d3a2e-3bc0-dc03.jpg

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http://img.tapatalk.com/462d3a2e-3c41-b47b.jpg

jocko

02-19-2012, 12:38 PM

Have u by chance let another person shoot the gun to see if they can duplicate ur issues?? I am not saying it is shooter error as the photos dont indicate that but again u need to eliminate all possables. If it has been back once and it is not right email those photos to kahr attn: Jay and see what he says. I would temper my comments though, alittle honey goes alot further than plain ol crap, but again that is ur decision.

kerby9mm

02-19-2012, 03:32 PM

I read this thread and didn't read if you gave your gun the extractor test with the slide off and sliding a live round. Under the extractor. Holding the slide and jiggle it a bit to see if the round stays in place or falls out easily. If the extractor is too loose the round will slide right out. Then again there could be a problem with the ejector. Just a thought. If I have something wrong I tinker with it.

Tibu

02-19-2012, 04:26 PM

I had given it to another person before sending the gun to Kahr and he had the same problems. I didn't check with another person this tine around. I was conscious about the possibility that I might be limp wristing the gun, but I really had a death grip on the thing and it still had the same issues. But I'll check before sending it in again to make sure.

Thanks for the tip about checking the ejector. I didn't know about it before reading your post. I'll check tonight and post back.

Bawanna

02-19-2012, 04:27 PM

I'd not give up on it myself. If it requires sending it back again, so be it. If Kahr doesn't sent a shipping label, have your local shop mail it for you, they can ship cheaper than you can.

Kahr will fix it. It's sad that they didn't do it the first trip. I'm with Jocko though. Have someone else shoot it, maybe even try another flavor of ammo. Although it should shoot both of those your tried just fine.

It's worth the effort to get it right. I truly believe that.

kerby9mm

02-19-2012, 04:46 PM

I agree that Kahr will fix it. That is a top of the line gun and when it is fixed and operates correctly you will love it. If you talk to cs and this being the 2nd time.
For the same issue they should deal with you on shipping costs . If you had sold it for $250 you would be as sorry as the guy who got it would be happy.

CJB

02-19-2012, 05:27 PM

I have absolute faith that Kahr will remedy the situation.

Tibu

02-20-2012, 09:00 PM

Talked to Jay and it seems he escalated the RMA and they will include a 6 round mag for my troubled when they return the gun.

I'm hoping I don't have to reach that magical 3rd times a charm in order to have a reliable handgun. BTW, thank you all for the support. It has certainly helped with the frustration. I'll update when I get the gun back from Kahr.

Tibu

03-25-2012, 09:41 PM

Well I got the gun back and they replaced the slide, barrel and ejector. So, besides the striker mechanism and frame/trigger, it's basically a new gun. And I could tell just by cycling unfired Speer Gold Dots that the gun cycles much better now. Before, it used to jam up pretty badly and not eject the round.

Anyway, went to the range still not getting my hopes up. And I was pleasantly surprised. The gun functioned perfectly through 150 rounds of Federal American Eagle 230gr. I must say I am really in love with this gun. This is how it should have worked from day one.

I still have a slight flinch but I like the accuracy at 15 yards. If I had to guess, I'd say the problem was barrel or extractor related. I'll still fire another 150 rounds in order to definitely have this as my EDC. Which will be sooner rather later as I'm sick of carrying my Glock 23.

Included pics with the extended 6 round mag they included for my troubles.
http://img.tapatalk.com/462d37a1-d6b6-3171.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d37a1-d6d9-e8b1.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/462d37a1-d6eb-68a5.jpg

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