Libertarian Party

[knkali]

Are many people that are consevative really more Libertarian in thought? IOW what are the fundamental differences between the two parties? Religion and gov for one?

http://www.lp.org/platform

Thoughts?

[les strat]

Libertarians believe a lot like Republicans in a conservative fashion, but they believe to each his own. The govt stays out of our business. Of course Dems are big govt in the ways we all know too well, but Republicans are very big business as well, but just in other ways: moral laws, (especially ones that directly affect only the individual), gambling laws, laws with religious undertones, heavy bending of civil liberties for "safety", etc. Libertarians believe fed govt should be small, guard the borders, assist, but not bully states, and that's about it. Bery small govt. Libs also believe like our forefathers did about staying out of foreign affairs (which we should have early in the game). But when we gave the world the bomb and other WMDs, that went out the window. We pretty much have to keep the crazies at bay cause they, unlike the Russians, will use them at the drop of a hat. Libertarians also believe big business should not use money to sway and influence politcal decisions and elections. It's really a pure poiltical stance that our country should have stayed, but now, with the shape the world is in, is too late.

So basically, a lot of the same beliefs, like anti-socialism, but smaller govt in other ways that Reps like control.

[muggsy]

Libertarians are conservatives who lack the moral underpinnings of true conservatism. They are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

[apheod]

Libertarians believe a lot like Republicans in a conservative fashion, but they believe to each his own. The govt stays out of our business. Of course Dems are big govt in the ways we all know too well, but Republicans are very big business as well, but just in other ways: moral laws, (especially ones that directly affect only the individual), gambling laws, laws with religious undertones, heavy bending of civil liberties for "safety", etc. Libertarians believe fed govt should be small, guard the borders, assist, but not bully states, and that's about it. Bery small govt. Libs also believe like our forefathers did about staying out of foreign affairs (which we should have early in the game). But when we gave the world the bomb and other WMDs, that went out the window. We pretty much have to keep the crazies at bay cause they, unlike the Russians, will use them at the drop of a hat. Libertarians also believe big business should not use money to sway and influence politcal decisions and elections. It's really a pure poiltical stance that our country should have stayed, but now, with the shape the world is in, is too late.

So basically, a lot of the same beliefs, like anti-socialism, but smaller govt in other ways that Reps like control.

true.


Libertarians are conservatives who lack the moral underpinnings of true conservatism. They are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

false.

[skiflydive]

Libertarians are conservatives who lack the moral underpinnings of true conservatism. They are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

I lack moral underpinnings? Bullshit. That sounds pretty judgmental and according to the Bible, you sir, are not qualified to judge. I believe (most) of what the Bible says...I just don't run around proselytising (or whatever religious fanatics call it these days) and trying to convert people all the time. My religion is mine and my God is mine. I keep it to myself and I wish others would too and that people would keep it the heck out of politics.

My Dad called me a small c conservative which is essentially fiscally conservative and socially (small l) liberal. I'm proud of that.

[Hognutz]

I see a train wreck on the horizon!! Politics on a forum = bad juju..

[getsome]

I consider myself a Libertarian and I DO have moral underpinnings and I don't believe anyone left or right has any right to dictate and inflict on me what their view of morality is and what my correct behavior should be so long as what I do doesn't break any laws or infringe on someone elses rights...

I feel like that if I want to ride a shaved greased pig around my house naked then it's nobodys business so long as I don't makie you watch me do it and if it's your opinion thats wrong well fine but keep your opinion on your side of the fence...

Libertatians believe the Governments only function is to provide Military protection and to tax the citizens only enough to do so, no more no less...All other responsibility should fall to the individual states and to to the individual citizens themselves...

[ltxi]

I see a train wreck on the horizon!! Politics on a forum = bad juju..

Didn't have to be. muggsy's inciting. I ain't biting. I would hope no one further does, either.

[muggsy]

I lack moral underpinnings? Bullshit. That sounds pretty judgmental and according to the Bible, you sir, are not qualified to judge.) I believe (most) of what the Bible says...I just don't run around proselytising (or whatever religious fanatics call it these days) and trying to convert people all the time. My religion is mine and my God is mine. I keep it to myself and I wish others would too and that people would keep it the heck out of politics.

My Dad called me a small c conservative which is essentially fiscally conservative and socially (small l) liberal.

I'm sorry that you took offense at what I said, but I think it's because you didn't understand the meaning of what I said. You don't have to profess your religion to have moral underpinnings and I'm not judging you in the least. If you have moral underpinnings you simply don't do things that are immoral. Especially if you know that those things are immoral. I don't judge anyone. God does.

[muggsy]

Didn't have to be. muggsy's inciting. I ain't biting. I would hope no one further does, either.

I'm not inciting anything. A man asked a question and I answered it as best that I could. If you can't handle adult political conversation then don't participate in it.

[muggsy]

I consider myself a Libertarian and I DO have moral underpinnings and I don't believe anyone left or right has any right to dictate and inflict on me what their view of morality is and what my correct behavior should be so long as what I do doesn't break any laws or infringe on someone elses rights...

I feel like that if I want to ride a shaved greased pig around my house naked then it's nobodys business so long as I don't makie you watch me do it and if it's your opinion thats wrong well fine but keep your opinion on your side of the fence...

Libertatians believe the Governments only function is to provide Military protection and to tax the citizens only enough to do so, no more no less...All other responsibility should fall to the individual states and to to the individual citizens themselves...

If you want to ride around your house naked on a shave greased pig I have no problem with that at all. But if you want to smoke pot and drive on city streets then we have a problem. Conservatives believe in a small federal government limited by constitutional constraints. We also believe in states rights and individual God given inalienable constitutional rights. Your rights end where your neighbors rights begin. That has little to do with libertarianism.

[muggsy]

Apheod, you may not believe what I believe, but that doesn't mean that my belief is untrue. I stand by what I said. I don't fear abuse of power, because of the system of checks and balances put in place in the Constitution by our founding fathers. I believe that if push comes to shove that the good people of this great nation will take up arms in defense of the Constitution and our liberty against any tyrant. That, my dear Apheod, is one of the checks and balances put in place by our founding fathers. It's called the 2nd amendment. Don't tread on me.

[apheod]

Apheod, you may not believe what I believe, but that doesn't mean that my belief is untrue. I stand by what I said. I don't fear abuse of power, because of the system of checks and balances put in place in the Constitution by our founding fathers. I believe that if push comes to shove that the good people of this great nation will take up arms in defense of the Constitution and our liberty against any tyrant. That, my dear Apheod, is one of the checks and balances put in place by our founding fathers. It's called the 2nd amendment. Don't tread on me.

i wasn't quoting you from the other thread, if that's what you thought.

i found your statement to be so laughable, i'm using it for a signature.

you keep saying all this stuff is written into the constitution, so we're protected and good to go... while at the same time ignoring the facts that the constitution is violated everyday in this country. you also ignore the fact that the system of checks and balances (even if we didn't have all these "executive orders") doesn't work if the majority of the legislative and/or judicial branch, along with the executive branch, no longer represent the interests and will of the people.

[yqtszhj]

I believe that if push comes to shove that the good people of this great nation will take up arms in defense of the Constitution and our liberty against any tyrant.

It's called the 2nd amendment. Don't tread on me.


That's good reading. You may be more libertarian than you telling us.:D

:popcorn:

[muggsy]

That's good reading. You may be more libertarian than you telling us.:D

:popcorn:

That's conservative thinking. As conservative as the NRA.

[muggsy]

i wasn't quoting you from the other thread, if that's what you thought.

i found your statement to be so laughable, i'm using it for a signature.

you keep saying all this stuff is written into the constitution, so we're protected and good to go... while at the same time ignoring the facts that the constitution is violated everyday in this country. you also ignore the fact that the system of checks and balances (even if we didn't have all these "executive orders") doesn't work if the majority of the legislative and/or judicial branch, along with the executive branch, no longer represent the interests and will of the people.

Using my quote as your signature when you failed to understand it makes you look foolish, not me.

[apheod]

could you explain what part of that sentence i don't understand?

[knkali]

Guys, we are all here because we have something in common (2A) and that we love our country. Lets not get out of line with each other and make sure we keep our interactions open, nonpersonal, and civil. Since I am the OP I am taking some ownership of this thread and I do not want it to become a slaughter fest.

Please remember what Voltaire said that really is the basis of our 1A and how many died so we can have a board like this:


"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[Armybrat]

I think Rush Limbaugh is a moderate.

Neill Boortz is a better listen, IMO.

[tv_racin_fan]

That's conservative thinking. As conservative as the NRA.

Except it isn't conservative thinking it is libertarian thinking and always has been. The very same libertarian thinking the classical liberals indulged in.

Just because some conservatives indulged in that thinking doesn't make it conservative thinking and the NRA has always been libertarian...

[tv_racin_fan]

could you explain what part of that sentence i don't understand?

Oh I would guess that he is confused by the fact that you understand that the govt hasn't followed nor abided by the Constitution in a very long time. While he still seems to think the govt does abide by the Constitution in spirit and letter.

Lets just take the second amendment as a for instance. What part of the NFA is abiding by the second amendment? What part of shall not be infringed do gun control laws of any sort abide by?

[les strat]

I'm sorry that you took offense at what I said, but I think it's because you didn't understand the meaning of what I said. You don't have to profess your religion to have moral underpinnings and I'm not judging you in the least. If you have moral underpinnings you simply don't do things that are immoral. Especially if you know that those things are immoral. I don't judge anyone. God does.


If you want to ride around your house naked on a shave greased pig I have no problem with that at all. But if you want to smoke pot and drive on city streets then we have a problem. Conservatives believe in a small federal government limited by constitutional constraints. We also believe in states rights and individual God given inalienable constitutional rights. Your rights end where your neighbors rights begin. That has little to do with libertarianism.

I got what you were saying, at least I was hoping you were not claiming libertarians do not have morals. Libertarians don't believe in enforcing moral laws/social norms on others unless it is a crime affecting others. That is what they believe. Smoking pot: No crime. Smoking pot while driving: Crime. Morals are there as are laws when it affects others, not just the individual. Example: helmet laws. Totally stupid. Now, if the guy wrecks his bike, should the hospital eat the bill if he has no insurance or money? Heck no. Everyone suffers their own consequences. It's really more of a supreme political example of natural selection. It's just we have been tricked into thinking the government (with taxpayer money) can save everyone from bad things with a safety net, taking the role that churches and civic groups should do, not taxpayer money.

As I mentioned earleir, we should have stayed out of foreign affairs early in our nations history like our first president warned about, but we didn't, and now, we have to clean up our mess and will continue to do so.

[tv_racin_fan]

Libertarians are conservatives who lack the moral underpinnings of true conservatism. They are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

Actually libertarians believe in morals they just do not believe that the govt should make laws requiring anyone to abide by someone elses morals. Be they Conservative Morals or Liberal Morals.

Seems you think the govt should mandate the so called Conservative Morals which makes you no better than the liberals who think govt should force me to abide by their morals.

[yqtszhj]

You know of all the countrys in the world, we have the best and I have been to many and lived in more than one. That being said they are still too intrusive and somebody needs to keep an eye on those scales of checks and balances, which I think we all here are. I think someone is putting a thumb on those scales at times when we're not watching to make it look balanced when it's not. We can fix some of that in November 2012.

[muggsy]

could you explain what part of that sentence i don't understand?

The why of my belief and I stated it for you perfectly in an earlier post. I believe that you using my quote as a signature is a violation of the TOS.

[muggsy]

You know of all the countrys in the world, we have the best and I have been to many and lived in more than one. That being said they are still too intrusive and somebody needs to keep an eye on those scales of checks and balances, which I think we all here are. I think someone is putting a thumb on those scales at times when we're not watching to make it look balanced when it's not. We can fix some of that in November 2012.

+1+ to that. I always vote for the most conservative candidate.

[muggsy]

Actually libertarians believe in morals they just do not believe that the govt should make laws requiring anyone to abide by someone elses morals. Be they Conservative Morals or Liberal Morals.

Seems you think the govt should mandate the so called Conservative Morals which makes you no better than the liberals who think govt should force me to abide by their morals.

Libertarians believe in legalizing heroin. Libertarians believe in abortion. Libertarians believe in same sex marriage. Libertarians believe in legalizing prostitution. Where is the morality in that?

[apheod]

libertarians believe in freedom of the states to do whatever they damn well please, so long as it doesn't violate the 14th amendment and infringe upon any of the other rights that our federal government allegedly guarantees. which is EXACTLY how this country is supposed to operate.

if a state's legislature wants to legalize heroin, so be it. the federal government does not have the constitutional right to say they can't. same with all of those other subjects, except for maybe abortion, since that does (depending on your individual opinion of when life begins) infringe on another's rights.

they also believe in the federal government FOLLOWING THE CONSTITUTION without any infringements, mitigations, "unlesses," "except whens," or any other way around the rules.

could you quote the particular sentence where you explained how the ridiculous sentence that i sigged makes sense, rather than avoiding the question? you sound like a presidential candidate in a debate, for crying out loud.

[knkali]

Libertarians believe in legalizing heroin. Libertarians believe in abortion. Libertarians believe in same sex marriage. Libertarians believe in legalizing prostitution. Where is the morality in that?

From what I have read, Libertarians do not mix the church in with the government. This is clearly different than the conservative platform.

[les strat]

I agree, more power to the states.

We, here in Alabama, are dealing with a situation where we passed a strict law on illegal aliens, and the feds are trying to shut it down. It is a law that reflects what a federal law that is already in existence! Tell me that is not crazy! They say it is unconstitutional! Since the law passed, our unemployment in the state dropped from upper 9% to 8%. The feds just can't stand not having their nose in everything. Our local and state govt are pretty much telling them to go to hell. Illegal is illegal. I get caught cheating on my taxes, I go to jail. But illegals break the law by being here, and we are violating their rights? What rights? They aren't citizens. If I was caught in Mexico illegally, they would lock me in a prison rivaling a third wourld country. Yet Mexico has tried to file a suit against our state on how we are treating their people that are here... illegally! And our federal govt backs them!

Yeah, dey gonna make evathang aaight. :rolleyes:

The only checks and balances going on are the checks the feds write to people who don't deserve them and not being able to balance the budget.

[knkali]

In a libertarian world would there be welfare and social security? In a true conservative platform the answer would be no--right?

[les strat]

No. Every man for himself. But like I said earlier, churches, civic groups, individual charity, and other organizations fill that role, as they should. Not taxpayer money.

[TriggerMan]

I'm not inciting anything. A man asked a question and I answered it as best that I could. If you can't handle adult political conversation then don't participate in it.
Your "conversations" seem more like diatribes. See #2 in the link

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe

[muggsy]

Guys, we are all here because we have something in common (2A) and that we love our country. Lets not get out of line with each other and make sure we keep our interactions open, nonpersonal, and civil. Since I am the OP I am taking some ownership of this thread and I do not want it to become a slaughter fest.

Please remember what Voltaire said that really is the basis of our 1A and how many died so we can have a board like this:


"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

+1.

[apheod]

Way to take the presidential candidate debate route and avoid answering a question when you're backed into a corner.

Here's a hint... Every time you try to engage in "political conversation" on this forum, you get your ads handed to you. Maybe stop engaging in political arguments if you always end up losing badly?

[muggsy]

I got what you were saying, at least I was hoping you were not claiming libertarians do not have morals. Libertarians don't believe in enforcing moral laws/social norms on others unless it is a crime affecting others. That is what they believe. Smoking pot: No crime. Smoking pot while driving: Crime. Morals are there as are laws when it affects others, not just the individual. Example: helmet laws. Totally stupid. Now, if the guy wrecks his bike, should the hospital eat the bill if he has no insurance or money? Heck no. Everyone suffers their own consequences. It's really more of a supreme political example of natural selection. It's just we have been tricked into thinking the government (with taxpayer money) can save everyone from bad things with a safety net, taking the role that churches and civic groups should do, not taxpayer money.

As I mentioned earleir, we should have stayed out of foreign affairs early in our nations history like our first president warned about, but we didn't, and now, we have to clean up our mess and will continue to do so.

There is no such thing as a victim-less crime. Staying out of foreign entanglements wasn't possible when oceans divided us. If we didn't go to war the wars came to us. As the most powerful nation on the face of the earth it is our responsibility to encourage the spread of peace and freedom. If we don't, who will?

[tv_racin_fan]

Libertarians believe in legalizing heroin. Libertarians believe in abortion. Libertarians believe in same sex marriage. Libertarians believe in legalizing prostitution. Where is the morality in that?

UUMM the law does not decide morality.

I happen to believe I ought to be able to do whatever it is I want to do to my own body so long as I am not hurting anyone else. What about you? Should I be able to dictate what you can and can not do? Where you can and can not defend yourself? Who you can and can not have sex with?

You do of course understand it is immoral according to the bible to have sex outside of marriage right? Should that also be illegal? Where is the morality in it being legal according to the law?

[muggsy]

UUMM the law does not decide morality.

I happen to believe I ought to be able to do whatever it is I want to do to my own body so long as I am not hurting anyone else. What about you? Should I be able to dictate what you can and can not do? Where you can and can not defend yourself? Who you can and can not have sex with?

You do of course understand it is immoral according to the bible to have sex outside of marriage right? Should that also be illegal? Where is the morality in it being legal according to the law?

Having sex outside of marriage is illegal in some states. It's called fornication. It's whats known as a blue law and is seldom enforced today. Other blue law include no selling of liquor on Sunday. No Sunday hunting, etc. For your edification the majority of our laws are based in Christian ethics. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not bear false witness. This country was founded by Christians. If a few more of us lived our lives bu christian ethics we wouldn't need as many laws or need to carry guns.

[muggsy]

Way to take the presidential candidate debate route and avoid answering a question when you're backed into a corner.

Here's a hint... Every time you try to engage in "political conversation" on this forum, you get your ads handed to you. Maybe stop engaging in political arguments if you always end up losing badly?

Apheod, since many of you are to ignorant to hold an intelligent political discussion, I'm going to take your advice and avoid them. Enjoy talking to yourself.

[apheod]

why is it that ignorant people easily make you look foolish anytime you engage them in debate?

you're saying the entire forum who talks politics in any thread you post in is ignorant, since so far as i've seen, nobody agrees with your opinion that our country will be fine because of "checks and balances."

you still havent shown me where you explained where my sigged quote makes sense. it should be pretty easy for you to show me up here, since i'm so ignorant.

[muggsy]

why is it that ignorant people easily make you look foolish anytime you engage them in debate?

you're saying the entire forum who talks politics in any thread you post in is ignorant, since so far as i've seen, nobody agrees with your opinion that our country will be fine because of "checks and balances."

you still havent shown me where you explained where my sigged quote makes sense. it should be pretty easy for you to show me up here, since i'm so ignorant.

Your childish and a loser. We're done.

[apheod]

Your childish and a loser. We're done.

you sure showed me. i have met my match. i have been bested. i bow to your infinite wisdom, good sir.

[tv_racin_fan]

Having sex outside of marriage is illegal in some states. It's called fornication. It's whats known as a blue law and is seldom enforced today. Other blue law include no selling of liquor on Sunday. No Sunday hunting, etc. For your edification the majority of our laws are based in Christian ethics. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not bear false witness. This country was founded by Christians. If a few more of us lived our lives bu christian ethics we wouldn't need as many laws or need to carry guns.

So wait you got no issue if people aint moral in some areas but do in others? Seems to me if it was about MORALITY you would be all over govt making sure they enacted laws forcing people to follow EVERY precept of Christian morality.

Oh and by the way tho shalt not steal and a few others were codified into laws of civilizations long before Christianity was thought of.

[MikeyKahr]

Thanks so much for muddying up another thread!! Now can we be done?

[knkali]

Yes this thread is done as far as I am concerned. Thank you to all that have replied. I will take some of this to PMs for further edification.

I think our similarities are greater than our differences. Lets keep that in mind--always.

Ok lets change gears... Should I sell my P40 for a Glock? :D:D:D

[apheod]

personal preference, i would say certainly not. i owned a glock 22 as a first weapon. i know they have a reputation for reliability, but mine was a piece of junk. IMO, short, light triggers are not good for defensive purposes. you may need to draw and be prepared to fire, finger on the trigger, adrenaline pumping, hands possibly shaking, but not actually ready to fire. in that potential situation, a glock or safety off 1911 in your hand could be the difference between accidently shooting someone, and not.

i'm assuming your p40 is a defensive weapon, anyway. the only advantages to the glock is magazine capacity and aftermarket as i see it.

[knkali]

personal preference, i would say certainly not. i owned a glock 22 as a first weapon. i know they have a reputation for reliability, but mine was a piece of junk. IMO, short, light triggers are not good for defensive purposes. you may need to draw and be prepared to fire, finger on the trigger, adrenaline pumping, hands possibly shaking, but not actually ready to fire. in that potential situation, a glock or safety off 1911 in your hand could be the difference between accidently shooting someone, and not.

i'm assuming your p40 is a defensive weapon, anyway. the only advantages to the glock is magazine capacity and aftermarket as i see it.

Yeah, I love my P40. That question was posed tongue in cheek. But you are right. Just when I think that trigger pull is smooth but too long and too hard, I think of the very same thing you wrote above. Plus I feel very safe with it as an EDC gun for that reason. I am doing a 3 day combat intesive with it in Feburary. IMHO I will be really testing ME with this gun as well as getting extremely comfortable deploying it from amny different positions and many different scenarios. It should be fun and educational. I havent reached that "synergy" yet. I am very close but just not there if you know what I mean. I think it is because I have not put myself in a competitive or dynamic self diagnostic situation. I have always been evaluating the gun. Is it dependable? How many rnds between cleanings before performance drops? ect. Now I can see how I AM with the gun and are there any differences in gun function when pushing for max speed and really firing. I hope that makes sense.

[Bawanna]

Yes this thread is done as far as I am concerned. Thank you to all that have replied. I will take some of this to PMs for further edification.

I think our similarities are greater than our differences. Lets keep that in mind--always.

Ok lets change gears... Should I sell my P40 for a Glock? :D:D:D

Words to live by indeed. I think we're more than done here. Per knkali's request we're closing this one.