What is wrong with .45 ACP ball?

[Armybrat]

Do I really need an expanding .45 HP?

Isn't a plain old .45 hole big enough for social work?

After all, .40 caliber JHPs don't get much bigger than that when impacting center mass into a lawless misguided "good boy" individual, do they?

Seems as if we wanted a tunnel-boring 1 shot stop we'd all use a Tower .69 piece like mine:

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w349/ScoPro/GregoryBirthday2011013.jpg

Seriously, I don't plan to carry my new CW45 with anything except ball. If that 230 grain can't do the trick, then I'll stay home.

JMHO

[wyntrout]

The military must use ball ammo... FMJ, because of the treaty we signed... the Geneva Conventions. Ball ammo is not the best for anti-personnel use, especially when considering collateral damage or civilians in the background. Ball ammo doesn't "upset" or "mushroom"... expand and cause maximum damage within the intended target. Modern defensive ammo is designed to expand and cause maximum damage to tissue and stop the targeted individual from continuing to be a threat and cause harm. Regular ball ammo just "zips" through the target relatively unchanged and doesn't cause the desired damage to the target and may kill or injure innocents beyond the intended BG... not a good thing for civilian use.

Modern self-defense ammo is designed to expand and expend all of the energy in the targeted BG... good penetration and expansion, but not too much over-penetration.

Ball ammo is good for the battlefield and more penetration might be a good thing.

Wynn:)

[Barth]

I think over penetration becomes the issue with FMJ.
You really want to dump all the energy on target, and stay in the target.


Manufacturer----------------Load Mass------- Velocity Energy--------------Expansion[10]------ Penetration[10] PC[10] TSC[10]
Federal HydraShok JHP------15 g (230 gr) 260 m/s (850 ft/s) 500 J (369 ft·lb) 20 mm (0.78 in) 300 mm (12.0 in) 93.9 mL (5.73 cu in) 465 mL (28.4 cu in)
Remington Golden Saber JHP 15 g (230 gr) 267 m/s (875 ft/s) 530 J (391 ft·lb) 19 mm (0.75 in) 360 mm (14.3 in) 103.6 mL (6.32 cu in) 416 mL (25.4 cu in)
Cor-Bon JHP--------------12.0 g (185 gr) 350 m/s (1,150 ft/s) 738 J (544 ft·lb) 18 mm (0.7 in) 290 mm (11.3 in) 71.3 mL (4.35 cu in) 469 mL (28.6 cu in)
Winchester Silvertip JHP---12.0 g (185 gr) 300 m/s (1,000 ft/s) 557 J (411 ft·lb) 20 mm (0.79 in) 300 mm (12.0 in) 96.4 mL (5.88 cu in) 495 mL (30.2 cu in)
Winchester Ranger SXT------15 g (230 gr) 270 m/s (900 ft/s) 561 J (414 ft·lb) 20 mm (0.78 in) 330 mm (13 in) 101.8 mL (6.21 cu in) 416 mL (25.4 cu in)
Remington FMJ------------15 g (230 gr) 255 m/s (835 ft/s) 483 J (356 ft·lb) 11 mm (0.45 in) 690 mm (27 in) 70.3 mL (4.29 cu in) 150 mL (9 cu in)

[tv_racin_fan]

You would be in very good company then.

The truth of the matter is there is nothing wrong with even 380 ACP ball or 32 ACP ball IF you put it in the right spot. Think location, location, location.

I'd prefer somthing that expands and expends a bit more energy in center mass of the bad guy I must shoot BUT then that also depends on the caliber of the projectile. For instance I do not want a HP in the 22 I may carry, I would prefer a plain ole Mini Mag (exactly what my son does currently carry in his Sig Mosquito) Nor do I want a JHP in a 380, there I would prefer either plain ole lead round nose or jacketted and semi jacketted soft pointed projectiles.

AND it depends on what purpose as well. See for personal/home defence I carry a jacketted or semi jacketted 125 to 158 grain hollow point round in my 357 mag revolver BUT when hunting I want a 158 grain to 180 grain hardcast projectile.

Oh and that so called tunnel boring .69 cal thing aint what you think.. that is a soft nicely expanding projectile throwing machine. Oh and you might be amazed at the results if you tried throwing some "screw balls" with it.

Guess you deserve a little story so you understand what I mean by "screw ball".

My son had this CVA Bobcat 50 cal cap n ball rifle. (HAD because I traded him a Traditions Deerhunter in Flintlock for it just because he decided he prefers flint and I like having that Bobcat around to allow anyone to shoot) Well on his first outing alone he didn't do an acceptable job of drying the bore and ignition channel before loading. (I had followed him out into the backyard BUT not fast enough to make sure he did a good job) So he had that infernal pop n no BOOM thing. We pulled that ball with the el cheapo screw type ball puller.. One of the targets he had with him at the time was a dead hard drive. I'm thinking he was shooting 70 grains FFg but it could easily have been only 50. ANYWAY a normal .490 ball just makes a nice pretty round hole thru the case and innerds. We got to talking about that and thought HHMM a nice hollow point ought to blow it slap up.. hhhmm we got this here ball in it with a nice hole in it made by the screw of the ball puller... hhmm wonder how that might work... so we carefully load that "screw ball" and then blast that hard drive. The difference in damage was quite profound. Glancing at that hard drive after the first shot one might not see the damage since it was a simple nice pristine hole but that screw ball made a nice hole going in and pretty much shattered everything on the way out.

[Wolffire99]

I think a lot of 1911 guys carry ball ammo because it's more reliable in their pistol. I really don't see very many disadvantages.

I think you should know what's beyond or behind your target, even in a self defense situation. "I'm ok because it's a hallow point" sounds to me like trouble.

[Barth]

GlockTalk: GATE Self-Defense forum:
Question:
Making a case for 45 Hardball
I know everyone has and will recommend hollow points, but I find it very assuring to often carry 230 Hardball in my 45s, especially during cold weather. It has been proven an effective round for almost 100years in our military. I do not care that it may not be the "most effective" round in one shot stops. Shot placement and penetration are most important, but I will add reliability equally important. Trying all different brands of HPs to prove their reliability is a task and expensive. I stock up on Federal American Eagle 230fmj which has proven 100% reliable in all my 45s. My Glock 21s feed anything, but not always the case with others. I realize that over-penetration could be an issue but getting 100% reliability gives me confidence and peace of mind. Can you make a case to carry 45 Hardball for self defense?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Answer:
I'm familiar with the points you make, but I have to respectfully disagree with them. I can't make a case for hardball for self-defense, quite the opposite.

First, hollow points aren't going to stop on even the heaviest winter clothing. At worst, their cavities will plug and they'll turn into ball, but a more efficient flat-nose ball than what you're now carrying.

Second, the dangers of overpenetration can't be dismissed. In the swirl of movement that may accompany a violent encounter, whether on the street or in the home, there's a high chance that the people we love and carry the gun to protect can end up behind the perpetrator. Tunnel vision, darkness, or the simple fact of the perp's body blocking our view can leave us unaware that those loved ones are now in a position behind the threat, perhaps even trying to counter-attack him to save the shooter. Dr. Martin Fackler's own extensive tests indicated some 26"-27" of penetration with .45 hardball in his muscle tissue simulating ballistic gelatin, and Patrick Sweeney has documented 30" of penetration with some .45 hardball loads in calibrated gel. That's almost a guarantee of an exit wound through even a large standing man's torso with more than enough power to kill whoever is unfortunate enough to be behind him. One of the reasons we use hollow point is to mitigate that danger as much as possible. The nose configuration of hardball is also more likely to cause an unpredictable ricochet than the cookie-cutter nose of a JHP round.

Third, while it isn't cheap to "prove" your gun with hollow points, it's a lot cheaper than a funeral if less than optimum-power defense ammo fails to keep the threat from murdering you or someone you love. It's also a helluva lot cheaper than the many hours of hundreds of dollars per hour legal fees if the bullet overpenetrates and strikes an innocent person, let alone the incalculable horror of realizing that you've caused the death of an innocent person.

For these reasons, I can't recommend hardball for SD/HD. Since your Glock 21 feeds hollow points, I'd urge you to carry the G21 with JHP until you've proven your other .45s with JHPs.

Another option to consider is expanding bullets with "hardball feeding configurations." These would include the Cor-Bon Pow'rBall, the Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket), the Hornady Critical Defense, or the Remington Express line of 185 grain jacketed hollow point .45 ACP, available in standard pressure or +P, which in my experience over the years will feed reliably in any gun that reliably feeds hardball.

Hoping you'll reconsider,
Mas

[CJB]

The military must use ball ammo... FMJ, because of the treaty we signed... the Geneva Conventions.

Actually old chap, it was the Haigue Convention of 1899.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet

During the Hague Convention of 1899, the British delegation attempted to justify the use of the dumdum bullet by pointing to its utility when putting down colonial unrest. Barbara Tuchman writes that, "Developed by the British to stop the rush of fanatical tribesman, the bullets were vigorously defended by Sir John Ardagh against the heated attack of all except the American military delegate, Captain Crozier, whose country was about to make use of them in the Philippines. In warfare against savages, Ardagh explained to an absorbed audience, "men penetrated through and through several times by our latest pattern of small calibre projectiles, which make a small clean holes," were nevertheless able to rush on and come to close quarters. Some means had to be found to stop them. "The civilized soldier when shot recognizes that he is wounded and knows that the sooner he is attended to the sooner he will recover. He lies down on his stretcher and is taken off the field to his ambulance, where he is dressed or bandaged. Your fanatical barbarian, similarly wounded, continues to rush on, spear or sword in hand; and before you have the time to represent to him that his conduct is in flagrant violation of the understanding relative to the proper course for the wounded man to follow - he may have cut off your head." However, the rest of the delegates at the Hague Convention 1899 did not accept this justification and voted 22-2 to prohibit the future use of the dumdum bullet.
(above quote permitted under Fair Use rules)

How true the bold subquote above seems especially suited to warfare of recent times.

FWIW, I carry .45acp FMJ's - they'll get the job done, they are the design centerline of .45acp performance and they may have an edge on feeding in less than ideal circumstances (ie, when I might be on my side on the ground shooting with my weak hand)

Side note - William Crozier, then Captain, later General, went on to become Chief of Ordnance, Small Arms Division, and oversaw the .45acp's (and 1911's) adoption. He and General Hatcher were good pals it seems, as Hatcher did Crozier's job some years later.

[tv_racin_fan]

I hate to disagree with Mas in any way BUT... seems to me if the arguement is

"In the swirl of movement that may accompany a violent encounter, whether on the street or in the home, there's a high chance that the people we love and carry the gun to protect can end up behind the perpetrator."

That aint a good arguement for hollow point ammo but more a good arguement for knowing what is behind your target before you shoot. IF you don't know then don't shoot is far better than "OH DANG I didn't know my wife was behind that bad guy that I missed and now I have killed her!"... then of course one could always miss the bad guy and hit the loved one with that hollow point...

Everything about personal defence is a compromise. Nearly everyone would agree that a handgun aint a guaranteed one stop shot weapon and that a shotgun or a rifle would be better. BUT we compromise because a handgun is far more comfortable for carry and far easier to conceal. Most of us here have compromised capacity for size and carry a single stack Kahr versus a double stacked something else. Some have compromised size in relation to the projectile and carry the P380 instead of the 1911 they would prefer because the P380 slips into the pocket of those slacks or the shorts they wear.

Seems to me you think about what you want to do and decide for yourself about what firearm and which projectile to use.

All that said I would personally PREFER something other than FMJ in a .45. Maybe something loaded with the Hornady HAP bullet...

[CJB]

Too bad they quit making flying ashtray 200g HP's in 45

[wyntrout]

The Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel version... 230-grain are close to the "flying ashtray" having a nearly cylindrical, flat-bottomed cavity... unlike the regular Gold Dot which has a narrower cavity that narrows even more towards the bottom and is deeper.

See pictures of bullets on post#16 of this page:

Speer Gold Dot 230-grain .45 ACP Tests - Page 2 - KahrTalk Forums (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7147&highlight=Speer+Gold+Dots&page=2)

Wynn:)

[TriggerMan]

Do I really need an expanding .45 HP?

Isn't a plain old .45 hole big enough for social work?

After all, .40 caliber JHPs don't get much bigger than that when impacting center mass into a lawless misguided "good boy" individual, do they?

Seems as if we wanted a tunnel-boring 1 shot stop we'd all use a Tower .69 piece like mine:



Seriously, I don't plan to carry my new CW45 with anything except ball. If that 230 grain can't do the trick, then I'll stay home.

JMHOIt isn't whether ball 230 gr will do the trick, its the 27 inches of penetration. Think of HP as brakes. A Ferrari needs better brakes than a Focus.

[Barth]

Too bad they quit making flying ashtray 200g HP's in 45

Actually they still do - sort of.
The upgraded GDHP 200 gr version is now 45+P, bonded and bad to the bone (1080 fps 518 E).
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23969
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Speer%20LE%2045%20Auto%20+p%20200gr%20Gold%20Dot%2 0HP%2023969.jpg

[OldLincoln]

Well, .45 ball makes a hole of .45" while .45 HST make a hole of .75" which is an increase of 67% in size. That's the size of a 12 gauge shotgun slug although vastly lighter and less powerful.

So if a bad guy needs stopping, why use less than you have available simply by using an expanding round?

[muggsy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP#Performance

[Armybrat]

Well, I've never found a JHP .45 round that fed 100% in my Springer GI 1911, and am wondering if my new CW45 will be just as finicky.

The 1911 eats the ball 100% and JHP maybe 98%.

[Barth]

Well, I've never found a JHP .45 round that fed 100% in my Springer GI 1911, and am wondering if my new CW45 will be just as finicky.

The 1911 eats the ball 100% and JHP maybe 98%.

What???
So the real issue finally rears it's ugly head - LOL!

Get your gun fixed or get a different gun.
Are you using a factory barrel or a match barrel in that thing?

My Sig Sauer P220/45 blows with a Bar-Sto.
But feeds ANYTHING with factory 4.4 or 5.47 barrels.
I only shoot HPs.
185/200/230 gr - Winchester, Speer, Federal, Remington, CorBon...

[340pd]

Rule # 4

Be absolutely sure
of your target, and
what is behind it.

Ball ammo will tend to ricochet with vigor. Reduce your chances with other ammo options if at all possible.

[CJB]

I'll tell you this about PM45 and 1911 feeding habits.

The 1911's all seem to prefer a somewhat shorter OAL than the PM45's. Its been demonstrated that 1911's with standard ramps prefer cartridges that are slightly shorter than SAAMI spec. This is pretty much 1911 canon - it can be researched easily, and verified.

My own dealings with the Kahr PM45 are that it prefers full length ammo, and tends to balk at shorter stuff. I had some slightly short 200g jhp that really gave fits on feeding, even though my 1911's ate it up for breakfast. Similarly, 230g jhp that was long... barely making it into the magazine, fed like crazy in the Kahr, but not any of my 1911's that day (Commander, Officer's). Went home, seated them about .040 shorter, and they fed great in the 1911's and Kahr at the next range trip.

So, my unscientific analysis - Kahr likes long, due to its extended ramp and magazine/throat geometry, while the 1911 has a short and higher ramp and slightly different magazine/throat relationship, and therefore prefers a slightly shorter round.

[Armybrat]

Rule # 4

Be absolutely sure
of your target, and
what is behind it.

Ball ammo will tend to ricochet with vigor. Reduce your chances with other ammo options if at all possible.

Always.

A friend of mine caught one that passed through two friends of hers in 1966. But that was from a 6mm Remington rifle. They were killed and she had a nasty hand wound.
That former Marine was a helluva shot.

[ltxi]

Too bad they quit making flying ashtray 200g HP's in 45

That was a favorite of mine, also, back in the day.

[CJB]

I still have two boxes stashed away "just because"... but I'm not using 'em.

[Armybrat]

Ok, I've toted Gold Dots around in my PM9 for years, so I'm not adverse to HPs at all.

Just settin' the record straight.

If the CW45 checks out ok with the next couple range sessions, I'll invest in some tunnel-boring ammo just to see how it runs.