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View Full Version : Extractor and Recoil Question as it Relates to FTEs



Russ
01-21-2012, 10:15 AM
I sent my Beretta Nano in after I experienced 4 FTE in 550 rounds.

Beretta USA polished the feeder ramp and chamber and fired 54 rounds of Black Hill FMJ 115 grain with zero FTE.

I wish Black Hills was readily available and cheaper. I went to the range with 100 rounds of Federal Champion 115 grain fmj and 100 rounds of S&B 115 grain FMJ

I encountered 2 FTE with the Federal and one with the S&B.

The Federal spent shells were completly in the chamber and the S&B was about 1/2 out the chamber. Also there really was not a consistent pattern of ammo number. One was the last round in the mag and the other two where about in the middle of the round count in the magazine.

Two of the FTEs occured within the first 25 shots and the last near the 180 round mark so dirt or lack of lube I believe can be ruled out. (the gun was clean and lubed by Beretta USA)

It is interesting as I read about other Nano owners encountering problems they are always FTEs. I have never read of a FTF which tells me the magazine is doing its job.

Some Nano owners are suggesting the extractor is not working properly becasue the spent shells are not landing consistently in the same area and some shells are hitting the shooter in the head which I have encountered.

Beretta told me the Nano is a blow back gun and a consistent higher pressure shell like Black Hills is what it needs not a different designed extractor like some Beretta forum posts are suggesting.

I understand in general terms what an extractor does but my knowledge is very limiited and that is why I am asking my Kahr friends for some input.

Beretta told me my extractor is ok when they checked it out.


If shells are hitting the shooter in the head and spent shells are not droping in the same area is that an extractor issue or too little recoil? Also does the extractor pull the shell completly out of the chamber or does it just get it started and the recoil created from the pressure build up in the barrel do the rest?

Note: The two Federal FTEs all were completly in the chamber but the one S&B was half way out the chamber

Russ

kerby9mm
01-21-2012, 11:11 PM
When I unload my guns (2 sig p238's mk9,mk40, Kimber Eclipse 5 inch) the live round in the chamber is pulled back by the extractor all the way until it hits the ejector then pops out as I pull the slide back. I have heard about extractor tension being out of adjustment causing extraction problems but have never personally experienced it.

FLBri
01-22-2012, 07:04 AM
If the casings are being left in the chamber, the extractor is not engaging (or is engaging but not STAYING engaged) on the rim of the casing. This is most likely an adjustment to the extractor tension/position but can also be inconsistencies in the casing (ammo manufacture).

Low pressure ammo as it relates to recoil would show up as a casing partially ejected, stovepipe, or even not being able to consistently pick up the next round out of the magazine (because the slide doesn't blow back far enough against the recoil spring pressure).

These would be Kahr design observations but the the principle should be similar.

gb6491
01-22-2012, 09:29 AM
...Beretta told me the Nano is a blow back gun...
That's pretty sad Russ because the Nano is not a "blow back gun" but rather a short recoil operated firearm.

FWIW, I don't feel that spent casings not dropping in the same area are a reliable indicator in regards to extractor function. I have a Witness 9mm that would probably drop all it's casings in a box near your feet and an SKS that throws spent 7.62x39 cases all over the place (near and far with no rhyme or reason to it), but both are extremely reliable firearms.

Regards,
Greg

Russ
01-22-2012, 09:32 AM
If the casings are being left in the chamber, the extractor is not engaging (or is engaging but not STAYING engaged) on the rim of the casing. This is most likely an adjustment to the extractor tension/position but can also be inconsistencies in the casing (ammo manufacture).

Low pressure ammo as it relates to recoil would show up as a casing partially ejected, stovepipe, or even not being able to consistently pick up the next round out of the magazine (because the slide doesn't blow back far enough against the recoil spring pressure).

These would be Kahr design observations but the the principle should be similar.


When I unload my guns (2 sig p238's mk9,mk40, Kimber Eclipse 5 inch) the live round in the chamber is pulled back by the extractor all the way until it hits the ejector then pops out as I pull the slide back. I have heard about extractor tension being out of adjustment causing extraction problems but have never personally experienced it.

Gentlemen:

Thank you for the reply.

Russ

Russ
01-22-2012, 09:36 AM
That's pretty sad Russ because the Nano is not a "blow back gun" but rather a short recoil operated firearm.

FWIW, I don't feel that spent casings not dropping in the same area are a reliable indicator in regards to extractor function. I have a Witness 9mm that would probably drop all it's casings in a box near your feet and an SKS that throws spent 7.62x39 cases all over the place (near and far with no rhyme or reason to it), but both are extremely reliable firearms.

Regards,
Greg

Greg:

Thanks

I worry when Beretta repair rep misrepresents the Nano as a blow back gun.

Russ

TriggerMan
01-22-2012, 03:19 PM
I sent my Beretta Nano in after I experienced 4 FTE in 550 rounds.

Beretta USA polished the feeder ramp and chamber and fired 54 rounds of Black Hill FMJ 115 grain with zero FTE.

I wish Black Hills was readily available and cheaper. I went to the range with 100 rounds of Federal Champion 115 grain fmj and 100 rounds of S&B 115 grain FMJ

I encountered 2 FTE with the Federal and one with the S&B.

The Federal spent shells were completly in the chamber and the S&B was about 1/2 out the chamber. Also there really was not a consistent pattern of ammo number. One was the last round in the mag and the other two where about in the middle of the round count in the magazine.

Two of the FTEs occured within the first 25 shots and the last near the 180 round mark so dirt or lack of lube I believe can be ruled out. (the gun was clean and lubed by Beretta USA)

It is interesting as I read about other Nano owners encountering problems they are always FTEs. I have never read of a FTF which tells me the magazine is doing its job.

Some Nano owners are suggesting the extractor is not working properly becasue the spent shells are not landing consistently in the same area and some shells are hitting the shooter in the head which I have encountered.

Beretta told me the Nano is a blow back gun and a consistent higher pressure shell like Black Hills is what it needs not a different designed extractor like some Beretta forum posts are suggesting.

I understand in general terms what an extractor does but my knowledge is very limiited and that is why I am asking my Kahr friends for some input.

Beretta told me my extractor is ok when they checked it out.


If shells are hitting the shooter in the head and spent shells are not droping in the same area is that an extractor issue or too little recoil? Also does the extractor pull the shell completly out of the chamber or does it just get it started and the recoil created from the pressure build up in the barrel do the rest?

Note: The two Federal FTEs all were completly in the chamber but the one S&B was half way out the chamber

RussHey Russ, my Nano now fires Speer Gold Dot 115gr std pressure rounds just fine. My FTEs dropped from 7/100 to 4/100. I don't know if it's parts breaking-in or that I fixed the mag followers to drop freely in their tubes. I did that around 300 rounds and have 550 thru her now.

In my experience, how FAR a shell case flys (3 ft vs. 7 feet) has to do with the strength of the recoil spring. It's one way to know when it's time to replace one. I'll admit its hard to gauge in a shoting station as mine hit the partition. I have a Kimber Rimfire Target gun which ejects shells which hit me in the face. It turned out they were deflecting off the partition and the "problem" went away if I stood one more foot to the left.

I had an experience with a Sig 1911 RCS which failed to feed the 7th (last round) on both the factory Checkmate mags. Once I installed a new recoil spring, that problem disappeared immediately.

Sometimes problems are hard to diagnose because guns are systems of parts and springs which need to work as a team.

You've already read that the extractor only does the first part of the job of clearing a shell, the ejector does the rest. I agree.

I think if you are 100% when shooting SD loads, I'd carry and be patient about the range ammo, they'll get it fixed before long.