pm9, cm9, p380 is there a difference??

[BOBBO268]

So I was convinced at buying a p380.... until I found this forum and it seems like a lot of people are unhappy with it. I have a 380 SW bodyguard, i love the size, but I HATE the super long and hard trigger pull, its almost hard to be accurate.

I guess i'm trying to decide between the cm9, pm9, p380. I've never owned a kahr but they seem like quality (maybe except the 380).

So if you guys, since you're the pros, can tell me a little about the p380 and why its good (or bad) and then explain the difference between the cm9 and pm9 (besides the $200 difference), the specs are exactly the same from what i've found so I'm guessing its the rifling or something, right? thanks for the help and i hope to be a regular here soon! I know the cm and pm are 9mm, but if the p380 is so bad, i have to change my direction. I've thought about the sig p238 which i've seen mentioned on the P threads, but its more pricey still....

and all that being said, are the pm/cm9's comfortable to keep in your pocket, or are they just too big? (why i was liking the idea of the 380)

[cesande]

I am working through this as well.

See my post .
http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=126329&postcount=3

I went with P380 first cause after a trip to LGS it became obvious to me that that one just crosses the line for ME that makes pocket carry workable on almost all conditions.

I can't say that I won't go with a CM9 cause I do love these Kahr triggers for CCW and do see myself with a 9 down the road...
But again with the need for anytime carry the P380 just RULEZ.

So IF I can count on a mag or 2 to be reliable I am good ..... which even NEW with propper prep mine has been...

Once I push it to 4+ mags... MY P380 has shown some issues that I am working through.... which really the only issue I see with mine is premature slide lock...

On that note I already have an 'idea' on which ammo to use to avert this as well...

Still in the early testing phase and not ready (yet) to run 100 rounds of premium SD rounds through it at a single test.... but getting there....


in the end...

It has its purpose and knowing that full on going in I still believe I am on to a WINNER with the p380...

again my 2 pennies

[TriggerMan]

So I was convinced at buying a p380.... until I found this forum and it seems like a lot of people are unhappy with it. I have a 380 SW bodyguard, i love the size, but I HATE the super long and hard trigger pull, its almost hard to be accurate.

I guess i'm trying to decide between the cm9, pm9, p380. I've never owned a kahr but they seem like quality (maybe except the 380).

So if you guys, since you're the pros, can tell me a little about the p380 and why its good (or bad) and then explain the difference between the cm9 and pm9 (besides the $200 difference), the specs are exactly the same from what i've found so I'm guessing its the rifling or something, right? thanks for the help and i hope to be a regular here soon! I know the cm and pm are 9mm, but if the p380 is so bad, i have to change my direction. I've thought about the sig p238 which i've seen mentioned on the P threads, but its more pricey still....

and all that being said, are the pm/cm9's comfortable to keep in your pocket, or are they just too big? (why i was liking the idea of the 380)In my opinion, pocket carry has limited uses. It is impossible to pull the gun when seated in the car or seated anywhere else. If you can carry IWB, do that.

The Sig P238 offers more shoooting comfort, better sights, and a great SA trigger. The mags, whether 6 or 7 round work. There are no nosediving issues, they fall free, and feed your ammo reliably. Google on P938 if you can wait three months for a 9mm.

[DocProton]

So I was convinced at buying a p380.... until I found this forum and it seems like a lot of people are unhappy with it. I have a 380 SW bodyguard, i love the size, but I HATE the super long and hard trigger pull, its almost hard to be accurate.

I guess i'm trying to decide between the cm9, pm9, p380. I've never owned a kahr but they seem like quality (maybe except the 380).

So if you guys, since you're the pros, can tell me a little about the p380 and why its good (or bad) and then explain the difference between the cm9 and pm9 (besides the $200 difference), the specs are exactly the same from what i've found so I'm guessing its the rifling or something, right? thanks for the help and i hope to be a regular here soon! I know the cm and pm are 9mm, but if the p380 is so bad, i have to change my direction. I've thought about the sig p238 which i've seen mentioned on the P threads, but its more pricey still....

and all that being said, are the pm/cm9's comfortable to keep in your pocket, or are they just too big? (why i was liking the idea of the 380)

I started with the p380 as my first CCW. I have only had problems when I used cheap practice ammo. I have recently replaced the recoil springs (around 5 bucks each from Kahr) and that made the gun feel and work better. I have recently bought the CM9 and carry it more than the 380 but when I need a small pocket gun, I get my 380 (use Glazer powerball SD ammo - no problems).

[BOBBO268]

And how do you carry the cm9?

[jocko]

In my opinion, pocket carry has limited uses. It is impossible to pull the gun when seated in the car or seated anywhere else. If you can carry IWB, do that.

The Sig P238 offers more shoooting comfort, better sights, and a great SA trigger. The mags, whether 6 or 7 round work. There are no nosediving issues, they fall free, and feed your ammo reliably. Google on P938 if you can wait three months for a 9mm.

If a going on a car ride over 15 miles, I take my PM9 out of y pocket and it rides in my drivers door or passenger door storage area. ANY gun in ur pocket when driving is not gonna be fast, but it ain't the end of the world either. If it is just a ride up town or a few miles I leave it in my pocket as I know I am getting out soon. I don't get to paranoid over any of this either, situational awareness and common sense trumps most of the time.

[oldjarhead]

I can only advise you on my experience, which is with my all black PM9 with the night sights. The PM9, unlike the CM9, has a match grade barrel. The accuracy is better. The rest is primary cosmetics. The PM9 has a dovetail front sight, the CM9 a simple pinned front sight. Roll marks and slide look is a little more detailed and appealing on the PM 9. Although the trigger is long on my PM 9, I really like the crisp trigger when it fires. I only wish it had a shorter reset. All in all though, one of the best things I like about it, it is about the size of many .380 pistols, with a 9mm punch, which is what I wanted. That is why the gun companies are going the route of the pocket nine. That is what the gun public wants. I just saw Sig introduce at the Shot Show a 9mm version of their P238, which first came out as a .380. I like my PM9. It cost more, but heck, it's a great little gun.:)

[1radman]

If you're considering a P380;

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8708&page=3

Can't argue with oldjarhead...plus u get the extra mag with the PM9...
Having said that, IMHO the CM9 is the best value in a close rang self defense TOOL. That $200 can be used for other important things like ammo, food, electricity, college tuition etc.

BTW My CM9 rides between belt and pants in a very comfy, el cheapo Uncle Mikes IWB. It's just too heavy/big for my pockets.

And yea that new Sig P938 looks like a winner with maybe a little added recoil.

[DocProton]

And how do you carry the cm9?

Either a mini tuck (crossbreed) or Remora (either iwb or pocket)

[Native]

My experience with the P380 is that it's a pretty little paperweight. The PM9 is a whole different animal. I trust my life to it. For me it's a little big for pocket carry in some pants, fine in others. Can't say enough good things about Remora holsters too. Either way PM9=Perfection....P380=Paperweight.

[94zcar]

I have no experience with the the Kahr 380, but have a Taurus TCP that I pocket carry when i can't carry my CM9. The TCP has been 100% reliable for the 300-400 rounds I have shot through it & it has the best double action only trigger of any 380 I have ever held, really you have to compare it side by side with several other pistols.
If you were to choose between a PM9 & CM9 they are the same pistol but the pm9 has a polygonal barrel and nicer slide cuts not worth the extra $200 to me.
The CM9 can be pocket carried if you wear 511 tactical pants they have bigger pockets that Levi's. Or if you are just a very large guy and wear big pants.
I my personal opinion would be to go for the CM9, better stopping power, better trigger, sights etc.

[BrewerGeorge]

Many people will disagree, but I personally find the CM9 just a bit too big for comfortable pocket carry. I want to like it; I keep trying. But every time I put it in my front pocket I walk around the house for a few minutes and switch back to IWB before I go out. I'm a pretty big dude - 5'11" 240# - so there should be plenty of "me" to disguise it, but it's just not comfortable. Not too bad when standing, but when sitting it's like there's a loaf of bread in your front pocket. - huge bulge. It's also heavy enough that in any pocket large enough to conceal it it swings around and constantly bumps my leg as I walk.

[Michael W.]

I own a PM9, CM9 and P380.

My P380 was purchased about 2 years ago and has been pretty much
flawless since day one. My biggest problem with it has been

1) the cost and availability of 380 FMJ ammo to shoot it
more often

2) My tendency to nudge the slide stop cause premature lock back.
(which I've cured by some judicious dremeling to "melt" the slide)

I rarely ever carry the P380 outside my house but inside, I rotate between
my P380 or a Keltec P-32 (also pretty much flawless
reliabilty) in DeSantis Nemesis. Whether I'm in my jammies, sleeping shorts or
sweats, whatever I'm wearing for the day (I work from home.) My P380 is an
integral component to my evolving "always carrying" philosophy. (When I'm in
bed I have one of my Glocks on my nightstand, my current favorite is my Gen
4 G27.)

For those folks that have a hard time pocket carrying a PM9 or CM9,
I had the same feeling when I first started trying to pocket carry.
It felt too big, the bulge was too noticeable, my pocket swings too much
when I'm wearing dress slacks, etc etc. I tried a couple of different holsters
but eventually came back to the DeSantis Nemesis.

Let me suggest from experience, that MUCH of this is simply acclimation.
I now carry my PM9 in my front right pocket at least 95% time I leave
the house and now that I am acclimated to having that weight and bulk there
I no longer notice it. I carry it whether I'm wearing tight-ish jeans (believe me
you are the only that notices the bulge) or wearing dress slacks, or wearing
CHino's/Khaki's. You WILL get accustomed to it if you give it some time
and give it a chance. I personally am not comfortable with anything LESS
than a 9mm when out and about. I carry a 7-rd reload in my left back pocket
in a Remora mag pouch and my iPhone in my left front pocket, and my wallet
and usually a Spyderco Para-2 in my right rear pocket.

That's a lot of hardware but again, it's a matter of acclimation and getting
used to it.

The testimony of how well all that really hides, I carried all this to my
doctors office last week to get prescription refills and he surprised me
by wanting to do a full physical since I was due. This included a prostate
exam. I was wearing jeans and my full EDC regalia and when I dropped trou
he never even suspected. Now thats not something I could have pulled off
IWB'ing. It's also a good thing my family doc is a good family friend.
Anyone else sticking his finger up my hoo haa while I'm carrying 14 rounds of
HST 147gr would have had a world of hurt rained down on him:)

Michael-

[bapple]

I think the CM9 is probably the best choice for you if you already spit up the lump of cash for the P380.

The PM9 may have more accuracy (incredibly marginal), better sights, and may include an extra mag, but I really don't think it's worth the extra dime. The main reason I would get one would be for night sights. No hate to the guys on here who own a PM9, but when you're on a college budget like me, it's hard to come to terms with spending that much money on a sub compact 9mm. The CM9 has been flawless for me and I carry it IWB in a Tagua holster. It spits out everything I feed it, and it is so much more fun to shoot than my buddy's Keltec PF9.

If you're talking about practical accuracy and what the gun is built for (close range) there isn't really any difference between the CM9 and PM9. I was able to do this at 25 feet at the range with my CM9. I hit it 7/7 times standing.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/photo-5.jpg

[Bill K]

My PM9 has replace 80% or more of my P3AT pocket carry! My PM9 now seems to have also put a substantial dent in how often I carry my Glock 26.

Keep the S&W BG and add a CM9 or PM9 if pocket carry is your primary carry method. If belt carry your options widen.

[jocko]

kinda funny how many report how their cm or pm series kahr has replaced the ol trusty glocks..in larger percentages.

[bapple]

kinda funny how many report how their cm or pm series kahr has replaced the ol trusty glocks..in larger percentages.

Kahr found a niche in the market that Glock refused to fill... slim, single stack CC handguns. Glock makes "compacts" but it's like carrying around a piece of lumber because it's so thick.

[josp]

I guess I like to be different. I went from my PM9 to my P380 for EDC in my pocket. For belt use I go with my P45. Sometimes I carry both. My experiences with Kahrs have been flawless, except for a CM40 that the company fixed pronto.

[dirtkicker]

kinda funny how many report how their cm or pm series kahr has replaced the ol trusty glocks..in larger percentages.


I am one of those many that you speak of, due to the size factor for concealment. I will carry my G26 when I can get away with it. Both fine weapons, both very reliable. Just different animals. Blondes and brunettes. I like em both!

[Popeye]

I went from XD's to Kahrs because I wanted a good Single stack 9mm.;)

[BroncoAZ]

I've got a P380 and PM9. I find the PM9 flops around too much in a loose pocket, and bulges too much in a tight pocket. I can carry the P380 in a pocket holster in any attire.

My P380 is very reliable with the right ammo, narrow pointy JHP rounds like the Hornady FTX (same as their lame zombie ammo) feed great, wide mouthed JHP like the Winchester PDX1 get stuck on the steep feed ramp. It works great with all of the FMJ ammo I've tried.

I'm another one of those who doesn't carry a Glock anymore because there are smaller options. I love Glocks, I have over a dozen of them and they are my go to firearm, but I just can't see carrying one when there are great single stack options available. If I were LE or in some high risk occupation I would carry a Glock 23 with a Kahr as a backup, but I'm Joe citizen.

[Wayne Nelson]

For the $200 difference, get the CM9. If you shop around you can even find one for less than that. I picked up a brand new factory CM9 with a blemish from GRABAGUN (Don't know what the blemish was) for $347 + $6 for shipping to my FFL Dealer. A "BLEMISHED" is only that, something cosmetic, not a "REFURBISHED" which is a factory refurbished gun.

If you can wait a couple more months, look at at the new Sig 9mm P938, looks like the ticket to me!! The price looks like it will be around the $650 range though. But, I would also wait until the 2nd generation comes out so that they get any bugs worked out with the first bunch. That could be another year for that to happen.

[BroncoAZ]

If you can wait a couple more months, look at at the new Sig 9mm P938, looks like the ticket to me!! The price looks like it will be around the $650 range though. But, I would also wait until the 2nd generation comes out so that they get any bugs worked out with the first bunch. That could be another year for that to happen.

I keep on seeing references to the Sig P938. I'm sure they will be well made and nice pistols, but they are exactly to opposite of what I want from a CCW pistol. Cocked and locked carry with single action only, an exposed hammer, exposed manual safety, pronounced beavertail, etc. are all wrong in a pocket pistol to me. I want a double action or Glock action trigger, no exposed hammer/snag points, no manual safety to manipulate, very foolproof to use, etc.

[kerby9mm]

I have 2 p238's so I guess they aren't FOOLPROOF!

[BroncoAZ]

I have 2 p238's so I guess they aren't FOOLPROOF!

The foolproof comment isn't a dig at anyone. My point is that the act of having to either cock the hammer or thumb off the safety on the P238 before firing takes more mental ability than simply drawing the gun from concealment and pulling a longer DA trigger. In a high stress situation I want as simple of an interface as possible, something foolproof without additional actions to make ready to fire is preferable.

[JFootin]

BroncoAZ, the SA trigger on the 238/938 is 7.5-8.5 pounds. May sound crazy, but couldn't it be carried in a good holster cocked and unlocked? After all, wouldn't a lot of people be taking the safety off as they drew the gun, anyway? That's not exactly a hair trigger. And I understand that Sig Armorers won't do trigger jobs on these guns.

[Deano]

I found some nice docker pants with a zippered cargo pocket that perfectly fits my uncle george's pocket holster for the cm9. Easy to get out, accessible when driving or just sitting, and just looks like a day-timer or book in your pocket. Also leaves your other pockets free for car keys, wallets, knives, etc.. Here's a couple of pics.
http://www.box.com/s/c4u2evscbkkv35z22z45

[BroncoAZ]

BroncoAZ, the SA trigger on the 238/938 is 7.5-8.5 pounds. May sound crazy, but couldn't it be carried in a good holster cocked and unlocked? After all, wouldn't a lot of people be taking the safety off as they drew the gun, anyway? That's not exactly a hair trigger. And I understand that Sig Armorers won't do trigger jobs on these guns.

I guess it could be carried in a holster cocked and unlocked (Condition 0), but it is not a decision that I would carry a single action pistol with, and it goes against the advise of every 1911 person on the web. Some of the P238 threads advocate carrying it in condition 2 (hammer down) or 3 (no round in chamber), both of which are useless for a sellf defense situation. These guns don't have a grip safety either. As for the 8 lb trigger, although Sig won't do it, a quick google search shows many threads about reducing it to 4.5 lb.

Regardless of the condition carried, the beavertail and cocked hammer still do not lend themselves to a clean draw from a pocket, IWB, or concealing garment.

[BroncoAZ]

I found some nice docker pants with a zippered cargo pocket that perfectly fits my uncle george's pocket holster for the cm9. Easy to get out, accessible when driving or just sitting, and just looks like a day-timer or book in your pocket. Also leaves your other pockets free for car keys, wallets, knives, etc.. Here's a couple of pics.
http://www.box.com/s/c4u2evscbkkv35z22z45

The pants and holster look good, but you might find that 20 oz of pistol beats the heck out of the side of your knee by the end of the day. I carried a G26 in a cargo pocket like that for exactly one day.

[Deano]

The pants and holster look good, but you might find that 20 oz of pistol beats the heck out of the side of your knee by the end of the day. I carried a G26 in a cargo pocket like that for exactly one day.Yeah, haven't tried it out yet. I'll let you all know how my knee holds up.

[kerby9mm]

It seems there is give and take in this discussion so I thought what if the bad guy got the drop on me and grabbed my mk. He could shoot me with it right awsy but if I was carrying my p238 he might not know about the safety. If he stuck something in my back it could be a gun or could be something else. This happened to a guy at work as he was getting in his car at work. The guy from work was armed. Luckly the bad guy only took his $40. Just one of my crazy thoughts

[JFootin]

I guess it could be carried in a holster cocked and unlocked (Condition 0), but it is not a decision that I would carry a single action pistol with, and it goes against the advise of every 1911 person on the web. Some of the P238 threads advocate carrying it in condition 2 (hammer down) or 3 (no round in chamber), both of which are useless for a sellf defense situation. These guns don't have a grip safety either. As for the 8 lb trigger, although Sig won't do it, a quick google search shows many threads about reducing it to 4.5 lb.

Regardless of the condition carried, the beavertail and cocked hammer still do not lend themselves to a clean draw from a pocket, IWB, or concealing garment.

Good points. Just shows what a good solution the Kahr pistols are for self defence and concealed carry. That lo-o-o-ong trigger is a simple and effective solution for carrying safely in condition 0.

[BroncoAZ]

It seems there is give and take in this discussion so I thought what if the bad guy got the drop on me and grabbed my mk. He could shoot me with it right awsy but if I was carrying my p238 he might not know about the safety. If he stuck something in my back it could be a gun or could be something else. This happened to a guy at work as he was getting in his car at work. The guy from work was armed. Luckly the bad guy only took his $40. Just one of my crazy thoughts

I'm really not sure how to respond to this bundle of thought, but I'll try anyway.

It would be more difficult for a bad guy to shoot you with your own gun if you used a keyed trigger lock at all times, but that is not in the realm of possibility for someone carrying for self defense. The bad guy should not be aware that his target is carrying, giving you an element of surprise as you draw and fire 1-2 shots center of mass to stop the threat. With or without a thumb safety, if the bad guy has your gun you're already dead.

An unarmed robber should not find your gun as you hand him your wallet, your gun and your wallet should not be in the same place. Ideally you want your wallet on your weak side so you can reach for it with your weak hand, keeping your strong hand available to fight or draw and fire.

[chrish]

about the time the P380 was coming out, fall 2008, i was in the market to transition from a revolver to something more concealable. at the time, the smith airweight j frames were the only thing out there in a lightweight revolver and they weren't all that light and you were stuck w/ a .38 at the time. my search lead me to Kahr and i was pretty much decided on either the P380 or the PM9. i opted for the PM9 for all the reasons everyone opts for the PM9, cartridge, small enough for pocket carry, etc. but i then found what many folks feel (or seem to) which is that the PM9 is only pocket carry in certain pants...others it just doesn't work, too heavy even in a good pocket holster.

by this point in time, i had ultimately shifted to IWB and the P9 and sold my PM9.

i think today, if i were to want to shift BACK to a pocket carry, i'd be looking at one of the polymer revolvers (bodyguard or LCR) or a smith scad .357. all of these way ounces less than the last gen airweights, carry enough rounds for a pocket SD gun, and are not subject to the P380 issues w/ short feed ramps, slide releases on tiny frames, etc...they are revolvers and always go BANG.

so, to sum up, i would still skip the P380 today and decide IWB = CM/PM/CW/P ... or pocket = lightweight revolver.

my 2 cents.

[BroncoAZ]

i think today, if i were to want to shift BACK to a pocket carry, i'd be looking at one of the polymer revolvers (bodyguard or LCR) or a smith scad .357. all of these way ounces less than the last gen airweights, carry enough rounds for a pocket SD gun, and are not subject to the P380 issues w/ short feed ramps, slide releases on tiny frames, etc...they are revolvers and always go BANG.

so, to sum up, i would still skip the P380 today and decide IWB = CM/PM/CW/P ... or pocket = lightweight revolver.

my 2 cents.

Some people swear that hammerless revolvers are easier to conceal because of the less boxy shape, but not too many thinkg I've read advocate them being carried in the pocket. I'm not disagreeing with your logic or choice, but the lightweight revolvers like the LCR are huge for a pocket compared to the P380/LCP/P3AT. I can't find a comparison picture to the P380, but here is the LCR to the PM9:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los3088/RugerLCR-KahrPM9comparison-1.jpg

[Cokeman]

Left handed PM9?

[BroncoAZ]

Left handed PM9?

Good catch, and don't I wish... There was a disclaimer on the post I got the picture from that the PM9 was mirrored.

[chrish]

no, i completely agree that the 'pocketable' revolvers are physically bigger in every dimension than the PM9. but i found the PM9, loaded, ammo weight in the handle, to just be too top/grip heavy. with the revolver, the weight goes center/down once loaded, particularly w/ the polymer ones where the barrel, cylinder, ammo are the only weight there.

the smith .357 scad (i think its the 340?) is only 11.5oz if memory serves, so shave another 2 oz off and you have a pretty pocketable gun.

as far as concealing a revolver, don't really have a thought either way. i personally don't worry about occasional 'printing' but i would imagine the revolver would print WAY MORE than a PM9 or P380. so in that regard, definitely either Kahr choice would conceal better IMO.

for pocket carry, revolver or auto, i wouldn't carry w/o a holster of some kind. if that's what you meant about people not pocket carrying a revolver. for me, any pocket carry = pocket holster.

[JFootin]

I have a CM9 and a S&W 638 Snubby. Here are my observations regarding pocket carry and concealability.

First of all, no matter where you carry, your careful choice of the right holster for a specific carry situation is critical. For pocket carry, some holsters hide the shape of a gun better than others.

In the pocket, I find that the shape of the revolver contributes to an easier draw than with the CM9. Of course, my 638 has the shielded hammer, which is helpful. But the small, thin frame in the back and the angle of the grip on the 638 make it much quicker and easier to get hold of the gun and to pull it out without it getting caught in the pocket opening.

I have been looking seriously at appendix carry for the ease of access to and drawing the gun, even from a seated position. I have been experimenting at AIWB position using an Uncle Mike's #3 pocket holster (which works well in the pocket, staying put when I draw). The UM holster has a 1" wide rubber grip strip that, when put in the waist under belt tension, keeps the holster where I put it.

I tried both guns. I learned some interesting things. First, the 638 conceals there MUCH better than the CM9. While the cylinder is wide on the 638, the rest of the gun is just 1/2" wide or less. The grip is about as narrow as the Kahr grip. So, it makes an overall thinner package in the holster. A big difference that really affects concealment, though, is that, like all semi-autos, The CM9 has a wide, boxy slide that is an inch wide all the way from the front to a point well behind the top of the grip. In comparison, the 638 has a narrow barrel up front and a 1/2" frame up top that starts curving downward 1 1/2" forward of where the chunky slide ends on the CM9. And it is that chunky slide extending backward that gets pushed out by my belly and prints terribly.

By contrast, there is nothing in that location but air with the 638. I found that, with a 10-12° backward cant, the grip of the 638 lays down horizontally just above my belt and hides under the 'ledge' of my modest middle aged spread, making for no printing under an untucked shirt. I am going to get a tuckable holster so that I don't have to alter my style of dress. And in that up front location, my weak hand can easily pull the shirt up when I draw.

To give credit to the CM9, being flat sided it rides more comfortably and conceals very well behind my hip—an ideal gun for carry at that location.