Is there any reason

[muggsy]

Is there any reason why the outer recoil spring of the PM/CM9 couldn't be closed on both ends to preclude the possibility of the outer spring protruding through the guide rod hole in the slide? Seems like a simple fix to me.

[jocko]

might cost more to have it done that way, I probablyhve hadmy PM9 down 250-300+ times and if this spring has come out of the front of the slide upon installing the slide after what ever, it might be less than 6 times. IMO it is not an issue to be concerned about.

[OldLincoln]

And if you spread it open to just fit it won't come out at all. I haven't but just watched what I was doing installing the spring.

[jocko]

ur dead right there Ol Lincoln and that also eliminates any part of that open coil from scuffing the recoil outter tube to.. Nice idea

[getsome]

I cant remember if it's in the manual or if I picked it up here but the open tip of the spring should be pointing upwards to the front sight or 12:00 if looking down the barrel end...My PM40 has never come out the end even in an experiment when I tried to make it happen...

Best thing as mentioned before is to just open the end up a bit if it happens and position it to 12:00...

[muggsy]

I've opened the front coil of the spring and I'm always careful to orient the end of the spring at twelve o'clock. My CM9 still has a tendency screw up after about 70- 75 rounds and the brand of ammunition doesn't seem to make a difference. I'm not concerned about reliability in a gun fight, but it's a damned aggravation at the range.

[DJK11]

Simple fix is to purchase the Wolff replacement springs and install the closed end at the front. The Wolff spring is ground flat on the closed end and the first coil is the same diameter as the the others. It's not "crimped" to grab the tube. The Wolff spring slips easily on/off the tube assembly. I tried it and it functioned fine, made no difference with the closed end to the front.

[pocket pistol]

Is there any reason why the outer recoil spring of the PM/CM9 couldn't be closed on both ends to preclude the possibility of the outer spring protruding through the guide rod hole in the slide? Seems like a simple fix to me.

Good post. I've wondered the same thing.

[CJB]

Tryin' to think.... been in all the popular and many unpopular designs of handguns, and off the top of my head, I cant think of ANY that are closed at both ends. Maybe HK does it that way, if anyone, they would.

[muggsy]

Simple fix is to purchase the Wolff replacement springs and install the closed end at the front. The Wolff spring is ground flat on the closed end and the first coil is the same diameter as the the others. It's not "crimped" to grab the tube. The Wolff spring slips easily on/off the tube assembly. I tried it and it functioned fine, made no difference with the closed end to the front.

Thanks for the suggestion, DJ. Sounds like the fix I've been looking for. That should take care of the final bug in my bug.

[wyntrout]

These springs are designed to give proper function. The free end is loose... so as not to catch or drag in operation. The rear is closed and drags purposefully on the guide rod, keeping it in position. If both ends looked the same, they would get installed incorrectly more often and really cause problems. I'm sure that cost figured into the equation as well, but it works and is easy to remember the open end to the front.

I just twirl the spring as I insert it and watch that the spring's free end stays inside its position in the frame. It's like the NOTCH that was added after experience showed that the recoil spring assembly would beat against that little partition and try to make its own room to operate, throwing off the action. There was a time when the notches were hit or miss... and we were able to add our own, once we understood the reasoning... the same with the beveling of the "stripper" bar on the lower part of the slide. These were fixes to problems during the development and testing of these compact, tightly fitted pistols... some in the field with us users.

Wynn:)

[muggsy]

These springs are designed to give proper function. The free end is loose... so as not to catch or drag in operation. The rear is closed and drags purposefully on the guide rod, keeping it in position. If both ends looked the same, they would get installed incorrectly more often and really cause problems. I'm sure that cost figured into the equation as well, but it works and is easy to remember the open end to the front.

I just twirl the spring as I insert it and watch that the spring's free end stays inside its position in the frame. It's like the NOTCH that was added after experience showed that the recoil spring assembly would beat against that little partition and try to make its own room to operate, throwing off the action. There was a time when the notches were hit or miss... and we were able to add our own, once we understood the reasoning... the same with the beveling of the "stripper" bar on the lower part of the slide. These were fixes to problems during the development and testing of these compact, tightly fitted pistols... some in the field with us users.

Wynn:)

Kahr could easily remedy the reverse assembly problem of a double closed end recoil spring by color coding one end of the spring. I've never experienced this problem with any other semi-auto pistol.

[wyntrout]

They could send along a DVD to watch like the one at the site for each pistol, but no one would probably watch that, either. You can't please everyone all of the time... or some some people, any time.

Wynn:)

[muggsy]

They could send along a DVD to watch like the one at the site for each pistol, but no one would probably watch that, either. You can't please everyone all of the time... or some some people, any time.

Wynn:)

This is true, but one would hope that a firearms manufacturer would strive to make a failure free defensive pistol.

[wyntrout]

Color coding... hmmm... would take some chemists and engineers, maybe... concoct a color that would stay on a heat-treated spring during violent recoil and repeated cleanings and exposure to solvents and lubricants... yeah... simple. Then someone would complain the color coding didn't make sense and was confusing... or too feminine... WAH! :rolleyes:

JMHO

Wynn::behindsofa::popcorn:

[muggsy]

Color coding... hmmm... would take some chemists and engineers, maybe... concoct a color that would stay on a heat-treated spring during violent recoil and repeated cleanings and exposure to solvents and lubricants... yeah... simple. Then someone would complain the color coding didn't make sense and was confusing... or too feminine... WAH! :rolleyes:

JMHO

Wynn::behindsofa::popcorn:

I just field stripped my P3AT. Both the inner and outer recoil springs are closed on both ends. If kelTec can do it, Kahr should be able to do it. Of course, I realize that you pay a premium price for a KelTec firearm. ( sarcasm) I'm not complaining, Wynn. Just sayin'. ;)

P.S. They have been color coding springs for years. No big deal.

[BEARDOG]

To answer your question, No.... mechanically I see no reason why Kahr could not have designed the RSA to have the spring closed on both ends. They just get away with it this way most of the time.

My Beretta 92 and my XDm's springs are both are closed on both ends and can be inserted either direction. My G26 uses a captured RSA. And my LCP has a dual springs both closed, but the inner has a very obvious flared end that needs to face front. So there are other ways to do things, and it is very much possible and reliable to do it.

That said, I think if your gun is pushing the spring out the front of the slide during firing 70-75rds, even after you tried to expand the open end. A call to Kahr C.S. is in order, possibly they will send out a new RSA and or want to have you send it in to check the gun out to make sure all is "in spec" because that is not normal or acceptable.

[muggsy]

To answer your question, No.... mechanically I see no reason why Kahr could not have designed the RSA to have the spring closed on both ends. They just get away with it this way most of the time.

My Beretta 92 and my XDm's springs are both are closed on both ends and can be inserted either direction. My G26 uses a captured RSA. And my LCP has a dual springs both closed, but the inner has a very obvious flared end that needs to face front. So there are other ways to do things, and it is very much possible and reliable to do it.

That said, I think if your gun is pushing the spring out the front of the slide during firing 70-75rds, even after you tried to expand the open end. A call to Kahr C.S. is in order, possibly they will send out a new RSA and or want to have you send it in to check the gun out to make sure all is "in spec" because that is not normal or acceptable.

I appreciate your support, BEARDOG. If it becomes a reoccurring issue I will contact Kahr C.S. They have given me outstanding service in the past.

[DJK11]

Muggsy, Open up the closed end of the spring so it will easily slip on the tube. When it has some slop, flip the spring so the closed end is in front and rack it a few times. If it's good, go fire it. Can't hurt anything.

[wyntrout]

Yeah, that's GOOD advice... NOT! See post #11 above.

Wynn

[DJK11]

Well, I guess we will disagree on this one.

[muggsy]

Since the springs gets compressed by recoil and expands to close the breech I can't really see any need for the outer spring to have a tight fit on RSA. It has no where to go. What we really need on this MB is an armor's Q&A column. Are you listening, Bawanna?

[muggsy]

As DJK11 suggested I ordered the Wolff recoil springs. I installed the outer spring with the closed end forward and the fix worked perfectly. There was zero binding of the recoil spring and the gun functioned flawlessly through 200 rounds. I no longer have to worry about the end of the recoil spring protruding through the hole in the slide causing the gun to jamb. Thanks for the fix DJK11.

[DJK11]

Muggsy,
Glad you tried it. Toooo bad more people aren't as open minded.
Did you purchase the 20.5# spring?

[muggsy]

Muggsy,
Glad you tried it. Toooo bad more people aren't as open minded.
Did you purchase the 20.5# spring?

I went with the standard spring. I'm not into +P and didn't see a need to go heavier. Is there an advantage to the heavier spring of which I'm not aware?

[DJK11]

I didn't notice any difference. I did measure the spring rate and the extra two pounds is in the outer spring.

My PM9 has more than 4,000 rnds. through it so it has loosened up.

From my measurements, the same spring rates are used in the PM9 and PM45.