Desensitizing America?

[LMT42]

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but what's up with recent military ops in American cities?

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012/01/los-angeles-added-to-disturbing-trend-of-joint-military-police-homeland-security-exercise-list/

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-special-forces-los-angeles-2012-1

http://www.dailycommercial.com/010412shield

If the military needs an urban environment for training, why use multiple cities? What's up with the recent training op at the social security office? Seems more like desensitization, or preparation for civil unrest, than legitimate training ops. Anyone have a sound argument for these being normal training ops?

[LaP]

Please report in person to the proper authorities at Homeland Security. We will answer all of your questions at that time. Please bring enough clothing, medications and other essential items to last you for a few weeks during your visit. DO NOT communicate with any friends or relatives prior to your departure.
Thank you for your mandatory compliance. Resistance is futile. It's for the good of the children.

Any other intrusive questions?:cool:

[les strat]

Well, it doesn't take a genius to realize that it's about to go down. They know it. Those of us who see through the BS know it. People will come unglued soon. We seem to think we are immune to what has happened elsewhere in the world, but, sadly, our traditional American values and way of life has been eroded by other mindsets, and now, the government is going to save us all... through a military/police state.

We have seen how it goes down with something as bad as weather-related disasters. Law-abiding citizens stripped of their 2nd Ammendment rights to have arms to protect their homes, property, and families, left to the maggots to be burglarized, raped, and pillaged.


YAY, They are going to save us.:puke:

We have the right to keep and bear arms to protect ourselves from BG's, even if they wear a uniform.

[yqtszhj]

We had family friends when we lived on the gulf coast and the husband was USMC Force Recon. They did training excercises in citys all the time. I remember one he mentioned in New Orleans at an abandoned school building but nothing like this.

Well, I don't want to drift this thread but I just watched the Florida debates and well.... I'll take any one of them over the current resident in DC. They just need to win.

Our last chance is probably in November at the voting booth. We need to fix what has been done.

[OldLincoln]

There was an unsupported rumor a couple years ago that Obama was going to pull some kind of martial law thing to postpone elections this Nov. I think it was just frustration at the going-ons at the time - to which we have become desensitized BTW.

[OldLincoln]

After some thought, I now think it's a good idea to practice in the cities, especially where terrorists are more likely to hit. Also, combined local & military training will help in coordinating efforts. If some bad thing does happen, the response should be better with urban training. I know there is something about not using military inside the US, but when this is where the enemy strikes it's time to rethink that. I'd love to see a few thousand on our borders.

[wyntrout]

Con... spear... a... see!

BLACK helicopters swooping about!

Our Armed Forces, especially the relevant units, routinely train and exercise with civilian authorities so that they are ready to interact with them in emergencies. Waiting until there IS an emergency is what leads to FUBARs and SNAFUs.

I don't hang around the rabble-rousing conspiracy-promoting sites looking for reasons to worry about stuff like that. Some people get their kicks trying to stir up anti-government sentiment.:rolleyes:

Wynn:)

[les strat]

I'd love to see a few thousand on our borders.

And here lies the problem. It blows my mind why we have to have NDAA and such when we have people coming in and out of our country so easily.

I dare say, at least in my neck of the woods, the number of highly-armed civillians could hold their own during civil unrest without aid of the military.



Con... spear... a... see!

BLACK helicopters swooping about!

Our Armed Forces, especially the relevant units, routinely train and exercise with civilian authorities so that they are ready to interact with them in emergencies. Waiting until there IS an emergency is what leads to FUBARs and SNAFUs.

I don't hang around the rabble-rousing conspiracy-promoting sites looking for reasons to worry about stuff like that. Some people get their kicks trying to stir up anti-government sentiment.:rolleyes:

Wynn:)

Just hope they do not take away our right to protect ourselves if such a scenario happens. Example: New Orleans during Katrina, when homeowners had to hand over their weapons and were told they would be jailed if they shot at intruders and looters or were caught with weapons.

[wyntrout]

That was the infamously corrupt local police force... disarming the law-abiding citizens... leaving them vulnerable to the criminals who don't obey laws... exempt from disarming.

Yeah, that was terrible... watching those bully-boy cops overwhelm or take weapons from law-abiding citizens by force and gunpoint. My blood boiled and I'm glad that I wasn't in situations like they faced. Meanwhile, the violent looters and criminals were running free and amuck. It's a wonder more citizens weren't killed by the criminal element while the "police" were busy out confiscating lawfully owned weapons while ignoring the criminal elements.

I don't know that anything changed for the better there. The local idiots re-elected the stupid mayor that left them in the worse predicaments they experienced. I know he's gone now, but his replacement was a part of the good-old-boy Democratic establishment.

Then there's North(?) Carolina with the same kind of plan for grabbing citizens' weapons... even those with permits... during any kind of "emergency"??

In wide-spread emergency situations, most people will be on their own, including providing their own security... or they should be planning on that... having supplies and arms to defend what they have and themselves. They will need plans for surveillance and defense, lest they be overtaken or overcome while sleeping.

I hope that we never see times like those in the New Orleans area during and after Katrina, but stuff happens... people are complacent because it was somewhere else.

I do think that guarding our borders against all invasions should be the military's job, not just the Border Patrol. And the U.S. Government SHOULD penalize municipalities and states... cut off Federal Funds... and prosecute the "authorities" that have or condone any type of "sanctuary" or safe havens for illegal immigrants, especially those protecting known violent criminal illegals.

Wynn:)

[LaP]

Here's one to think about:

"A society of sheep must, in time, beget a government of wolves."
Bertrand de Jouvenel

[Bill K]

Our President has been pretty upfront by saying, I think twice now... "If Congress won't act, I will". This is of course taken out of its context and perhaps the President has a very narrow application in mind. I sincerely hope he wouldn't act contrary to the Constitution but I have enough distrust to fear that the Constitution is no longer much of a limit on any of the branches of governments actions.

[muggsy]

Warning, warning, tin foil hat alert!! :D

[Bawanna]

I'm ready?

[les strat]

Warning, warning, tin foil hat alert!! :D

Man, you just can't let a discussion roll can you? Think gun-grabbing during Katrina was a fairy tale? What happened to your "cold dead fingers" quote? Wonder why those law-abiding citizens didn't retaliate according to your quote? :rolleyes:

[JohnR]

The military will rely more on the National Guard, according to this news story. http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/army-chief-lays-out-force-cuts-sees-greater-role-for-guard-and-reserves/2012/01/27/gIQAZFwOVQ_story.html

Not sure if that's good or bad...

[Bill K]

Warning, warning, tin foil hat alert!! :D

I sincerely hope you're right but I believe history is replete with once great societies falling from greatness. There are, in my opinion , just too many parallels to ignore. I've said it before and I'll say it again... I pray that the decline of this once great nation is more like that of Great Britain then that of Rome.

[LaP]

Our collapse will not occur with a big bang..... we'll just keel over after bleeding from a thousand cuts. Don't worry, we won't feel a thing.

I gotta go now. American Idol is on and I just couldn't live if I missed a single minute of it.
:cool:

[les strat]

Our collapse will not occur with a big bang..... we'll just keel over after bleeding from a thousand cuts. Don't worry, we won't feel a thing.

I gotta go now. American Idol is on and I just couldn't live if I missed a single minute of it.
:cool:

LMAO! They got you LaP! They entertain us while we are getting raped :faint2:

[muggsy]

Man, you just can't let a discussion roll can you? Think gun-grabbing during Katrina was a fairy tale? What happened to your "cold dead fingers" quote? Wonder why those law-abiding citizens didn't retaliate according to your quote? :rolleyes:

Les, when the military comes to my front door and asks for my firearms, I'll apologize to the entire board. I just don't see it happening. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but I don't see it as very likely. The last time it was tried nation wide we weren't yet a nation and it didn't work out too well for the Brits. I'm not afraid of the government, because the government derives its power from us and we have the power to take power from the government any time we choose. By the ballot box, or the barrel of a gun. Checks and balances.

[Longitude Zero]

It is called Military Operations in Uran Terrain. Nothing new at all. For those who know factual information and pay attention this has been going on forever 30 years. Geesh.

Wake up and get with the program. I am now searching for my tin foil hat to ward of the ignorant shat heads.

[wyntrout]

I don't see our military doing anything like that, but I would believe the bully-boy cops doing it as it happened in and around New Orleans.

Some cops ARE lazy and would like things to be easy... them being the only ones with weapons... with their "fingers on every pulse" keeping track of everyone... unlimited and UNCONSTITUTIONAL powers. Outlaws will always be around, ready to pop out and ply their "trade" when the police move away from their targets. They aren't bound by any rules or laws.

SELF-DEFENSE is everyone's responsibility... unless you are rich enough to have your own "police force", you need to see to your own defense... have the means and the training to defend yourself and your family AND community, if the situation arises.

Unless the situation changes drastically, I expect that sometime in the future the S. will hit the fan, and we will have people spilling out of the projects and the cities, looking to share everyone else's stuff. If you can't defend what you have, that and your loved ones are going to be gone... or suffer greatly.

The Iranians should soon have their first few nukes. They can read and reason like most people that the most effective means of using a FEW nukes will be in the EMP role. They have the delivery vehicles for hoisting a few small nukes into the atmosphere and wiping out our entire country's electronically-controlled infrastructure... electric power production, water distribution, and all forms of communication and transportation/distribution... a scene very much like the one depicted in One Second After. That fictional scenario resulted in 90% casualties... dead ones... inside of a year. Most people can't began to comprehend the catastrophic loss of all of our daily amenities... food, water, electricity, gasoline for our vehicles, let alone all of our modern vehicles being immobilized by the loss of their electronic mechanisms.

I don't really want to think about the consequences of such an attack, but I wish that our bleeping leaders would!:rolleyes:

Wynn:)

[LMT42]

It is called Military Operations in Uran Terrain. Nothing new at all. For those who know factual information and pay attention this has been going on forever 30 years. Geesh.

Wake up and get with the program. I am now searching for my tin foil hat to ward of the ignorant shat heads.

I didn't start this thread to troll or show off my tinfoil hat. I hoped there might be active military on this board that could shed some light on this. Perhaps this is just MO in urban terrain, but why be so high profile about it? Why use downtown areas of the largest US cities? The military has had ten years of practice in urban warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan. They also have huge bases on which to train. You say this has been going on for 30 years, but I've never heard of anything like it.

I also find the homeland security training strange. Again, we have bases for this type of training. Do we really need armed, federal officers deployed on American streets? I suppose you can say this is training for a terrorist event, but terrorists typically blow stuff up. They don't hang around and engage law enforcement.

Perhaps the military is training for deployment in Tehran, but the homeland security stuff doesn't make much sense to me. The high-profile nature of it all just seems odd.

[les strat]

Les, when the military comes to my front door and asks for my firearms, I'll apologize to the entire board. I just don't see it happening. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but I don't see it as very likely. The last time it was tried nation wide we weren't yet a nation and it didn't work out too well for the Brits. I'm not afraid of the government, because the government derives its power from us and we have the power to take power from the government any time we choose. By the ballot box, or the barrel of a gun. Checks and balances.

WHAT?

Watch and learn. This is straight from the NRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

[tv_racin_fan]

Luckily I never got deployed and I don't recall my unit getting deployed when we were on "hurricane" duty.. that was back in the late 70s Ft Stewart GA.

I did participate in a project off post... which was kinda strange to be honest.. since those types of projects on post generally got done by civilian corps.

I know the higher ups had plans drawn up to invade Florida back then as well and 82nd came down and invaded GA at least once.. in fact my unit got to be on the invading side against a sister unit.

[hpg]

They are coming to get you...run Forrest run..............:eek:....................:D

[muggsy]

WHAT?

Watch and learn. This is straight from the NRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

What part of Martial Law don't you understand? In an emergency the government has the power to do just that. The word is comply. You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. So do I. Let's leave it at that.

[JohnR]

U.S. cities are not like cities in the Muslim world. Different ideas of urban planning, different architecture, different culture. Europe, Asia, and Latin America are even more different.

Train like you fight, fight like you train. Planned or not, they are training to fight in American cities.

[yqtszhj]

I had way more dealings with that New Orleans situation that I care to remember and it's somewhat complicated if you don't understand the area. I'm just thankful I didn't have to go there. One of my co-workers did. He was right down town and they were being shot at.

Word is New Orleans opened the jails and let everyone out right before Katrina hit because they had no plan to evacuate the prisoners. Add those to the thugs that roam the streets of Orleans parish every day and you have a big problem. It was so bad after Katrina that the company I worked for at that time had to hire Blackwater (remember them?) to protect and escort our employees to survey the damage and try to restore our facilities. The N.O. police did not mess with them. The whole issue is poor planning by the state, city of NO, and local police department. There is a lack of disipline in that city. If the city and state would plan like they should, maybe some of this could have been averted, but again that's N.O., aka. the big easy.

Once this started inside the city of NO, outside of the city and along the entire gulf coast local civilians took up their arms, blocked off roads and neighborhoods, stopped cars, etc... to protect their property from the overflow caused by the disaster. And let me tell you, you better have had a reason to go down their street or you were not going. That worked well for those civilians.

The problem with that whole thing is New Orleans poor planning for YEARS and the aftermath of Katrina can promote the cause of those that think we need to give up our rights and then we would have peace.

Back to the original subject of this post, I think yeah, these things can be desensitizing. And we better keep an eye on our local governments as close or closer than the feds.

[les strat]

What part of Martial Law don't you understand? In an emergency the government has the power to do just that. The word is comply. You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. So do I. Let's leave it at that.

It does not suspend the Constitution. You can't sit there and tell me what happened was right. It was not martial law. It was only declared a public state of emergency. Power was abused on law-abiding citizens, and that is worng. If you think it was right, we, you have other issues. Meanwhile, innocent folks were left to the mercy of looters, while crap like this was going down on good folks. It was the epitome of poor and incompitent management.
When the tornados ripped through my area last year, luckily, our local sherrifs told people to arm themselves and defend themselves and their property from looters - even if feds arrived, do what they had to. This is Alabama, and boys down here don't take stuff like that lightly. Feds were just in the way and told to move out of the way so we can clean up. This ain't New Orleans.

Are you sure you are not a liberal? You are just not as much of a patriot at heart as most of us on here.

[yqtszhj]

When the tornados ripped through my area last year, luckily, our local sherrifs told people to arm themselves and defend themselves and their property from looters - even if feds arrived, do what they had to. This is Alabama, and boys down here don't take stuff like that lightly. Feds were just in the way and told to move out of the way so we can clean up. This ain't New Orleans.



And that's just how it outta be. That's one of the things I like about living in the state.

[les strat]

What part of Martial Law don't you understand? In an emergency the government has the power to do just that. The word is comply. You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. So do I. Let's leave it at that.

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” - Thomas Jefferson

[JFootin]

I had way more dealings with that New Orleans situation that I care to remember and it's somewhat complicated if you don't understand the area. I'm just thankful I didn't have to go there. One of my co-workers did. He was right down town and they were being shot at.

Word is New Orleans opened the jails and let everyone out right before Katrina hit because they had no plan to evacuate the prisoners. Add those to the thugs that roam the streets of Orleans parish every day and you have a big problem. It was so bad after Katrina that the company I worked for at that time had to hire Blackwater (remember them?) to protect and escort our employees to survey the damage and try to restore our facilities. The N.O. police did not mess with them. The whole issue is poor planning by the state, city of NO, and local police department. There is a lack of disipline in that city. If the city and state would plan like they should, maybe some of this could have been averted, but again that's N.O., aka. the big easy.

Once this started inside the city of NO, outside of the city and along the entire gulf coast local civilians took up their arms, blocked off roads and neighborhoods, stopped cars, etc... to protect their property from the overflow caused by the disaster. And let me tell you, you better have had a reason to go down their street or you were not going. That worked well for those civilians.

The problem with that whole thing is New Orleans poor planning for YEARS and the aftermath of Katrina can promote the cause of those that think we need to give up our rights and then we would have peace.

Back to the original subject of this post, I think yeah, these things can be desensitizing. And we better keep an eye on our local governments as close or closer than the feds.

One of the strangest thing I heard from the Katrina mess was that one of the high rise hotels in downtown NO hired some busses to evacuate their guests. The busses made it to the outskirts of the city on a clear Interstate highway, and it was clear cruising to Dallas or somewhere safe. But they were stopped at a roadblock, all but one of the busses were siezed, and they were ordered to all squeeze into one bus and go back to the hotel, where they had to endure no power, no water and stuff for several days. Tin hat time, but I think it was some sort of Orwellian experiment, and they weren't going to let any of the rats out of the cage.

[les strat]

One of the strangest thing I heard from the Katrina mess was that one of the high rise hotels in downtown NO hired some busses to evacuate their guests. The busses made it to the outskirts of the city on a clear Interstate highway, and it was clear cruising to Dallas or somewhere safe. But they were stopped at a roadblock, all but one of the busses were siezed, and they were ordered to all squeeze into one bus and go back to the hotel, where they had to endure no power, no water and stuff for several days. Tin hat time, but I think it was some sort of Orwellian experiment, and they weren't going to let any of the rats out of the cage.

Mismanaged from the getgo at all levels, local to federal.

[Tilos]

Yep, had to add a new name to my ignore list today.
The only way I'll see anyone on my list's posts is if someone else quotes them
Love this site's software:nerd:

Tilos

[yqtszhj]

Yep, had to add a new name to my ignore list today.
The only way I'll see anyone on my list's posts is if someone else quotes them
Love this site's software:nerd:

Tilos

You're the man. I haven't figured that out.

[MikeyKahr]

Yep, had to add a new name to my ignore list today.
The only way I'll see anyone on my list's posts is if someone else quotes them
Love this site's software:nerd:

Tilos

Tilos can't read this, Tilos can't read this :p

Sent using Tapatalk

[ltxi]

Fortunately, being one of "them" I'll get to keep my guns....along with the other five of us on this forum.

Best wishes to all the rest of you guys/gals.

:cool:

[Bawanna]

Fortunately, being one of "them" I'll get to keep my guns....along with the other five of us on this forum.

Best wishes to all the rest of you guys/gals.

:cool:

Oink, Oink........

It will be a news worthy day when they come for mine. I know none of the guys in my town and most of the county guys won't participate at my house.

[ltxi]

Ok, then.....guess I meant along with the other four of us on this forum.

[1radman]

Les, when the military comes to my front door and asks for my firearms, I'll apologize to the entire board. I just don't see it happening. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but I don't see it as very likely. The last time it was tried nation wide we weren't yet a nation and it didn't work out too well for the Brits. I'm not afraid of the government, because the government derives its power from us and we have the power to take power from the government any time we choose. By the ballot box, or the barrel of a gun. Checks and balances.

When they are at your front it will be way too late to apologize or even communicate to anyone. The WWW will be gone , no phone, no gas to travel, no where to run or hide. A bigger, more powerful Gov't diminishes the power of the citizens. We must indeed take power back at the ballot box this Nov.
ABO! Checks and Balances, Ballot Boxes and free armed citizens would disappear under martial law. It will creep up on you because you "just don't see it happening".
Whew! I totally bit on the conspiracy theory bait...I really don't spend much time worrying about it...I just try to stay prepared.

[muggsy]

It does not suspend the Constitution. You can't sit there and tell me what happened was right. It was not martial law. It was only declared a public state of emergency. Power was abused on law-abiding citizens, and that is worng. If you think it was right, we, you have other issues. Meanwhile, innocent folks were left to the mercy of looters, while crap like this was going down on good folks. It was the epitome of poor and incompitent management.
When the tornados ripped through my area last year, luckily, our local sherrifs told people to arm themselves and defend themselves and their property from looters - even if feds arrived, do what they had to. This is Alabama, and boys down here don't take stuff like that lightly. Feds were just in the way and told to move out of the way so we can clean up. This ain't New Orleans.

Are you sure you are not a liberal? You are just not as much of a patriot at heart as most of us on here.

I'm sorry Les, but declaring martial law does suspend some of your rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law

[1radman]

More reason to be an NRA member and support pro 2nd amendment politicians
in your state. This bill is on track to become law in Virginia! ( along with several other pro gun bills)

From "NRA State Roundup".
"House Bill 20, drafted by the NRA and sponsored by Delegate Tony Wilt (R-25), would update Virginia’s Emergency Powers doctrine by adding lawful carrying and transportation to the list of actions that cannot be prohibited during a declaration of emergency."

Unfortunately, Federal martial law would likely supersede this.

[muggsy]

Through out United States history are several examples of the imposition of martial law, aside from that during the Civil War.

During the War of 1812, General Andrew Jackson imposed martial law in New Orleans. Martial law was also imposed in a four mile radius around the vicinity. When word came of the end of the war, Jackson maintained martial law, contending that he had not gotten official word of the peace. A judge demanded habeas corpus for a man arrested for sedition. Rather than comply with the writ, Jackson had the judge arrested.

In 1892, at Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, rebellious mine workers blew up a mill and shot at strike-breaking workers. The explosion leveled a four-story building and killed one person. The governor declared martial law. At the same time, a request was made for federal troops to back guardsmen. Over 600 people were arrested. The list was whittled down to two dozen ring leaders who were tried in military court. While in prison, the mine workers formed a new union, the Western Federation of Miners.

In 1914, imposition of martial law climaxed the so-called Coal Field Wars in Colorado. Dating back decades, the conflicts came to a head in Ludlow in 1913. The Colorado National Guard was called in to quell the strikers. For a time, the peace was kept, but it is reported that the make-up of the Guard stationed at the mines began to shift from impartial normal troops to companies of loyal mine guards. Clashes increased and the proclamation of martial law was made by the governor. President Wilson sent in federal troops, eventually ending the violence.

In 1934, California Governor Frank Merriam placed the docks of San Francisco under martial law, citing "riots and tumult" resulting from a dock worker's strike. The Governor threatened to place the entire city under martial law. The National Guard was called in to open the docks, and a city-wide institution of martial law was averted when goods began to flow. The guardsmen were empowered to make arrests and to then try detainees or turn them over to the civil courts.

Martial law and San Francisco were no strangers - following the earthquake of 1906, the troops stationed in the Presidio were pressed into martial law service. Guards were posted throughout the city, and all dynamite was confiscated. The dynamite was used to destroy buildings in the path of fires, to prevent the fires from spreading. Troops were ordered to shoot looters.

Hawaii was placed under martial law in 1941, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Hawaiians were, and are, of Asian descent, and the loyalty of these people was called into question. After the war, the federal judge for the islands condemned the conduct of martial law, saying, "Gov. Poindexter declared lawfully martial law but the Army went beyond the governor and set up that which was lawful only in conquered enemy territory namely, military government which is not bound by the Constitution. And they ... threw the Constitution into the discard and set up a military dictatorship."

On 8/26/2005, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans was placed under martial law after widespread flooding rendered civil authority ineffective. The state of Louisiana does not have an actual legal construct called "martial law," but instead something quite like it: a state of public health emergency. The state of emergency allowed the governor to suspend laws, order evacuations, and limit the sales of items such as alcohol and firearms. The governor's order limited the state of emergency, to end on 9/25/2005, "unless terminated sooner."

There have been many instances of the use of the military within the borders of the United States, such as during the Whiskey Rebellion and in the South during the civil rights crises, but these acts are not tantamount to a declaration of martial law. The distinction must be made as clear as that between martial law and military justice: deployment of troops does not necessarily mean that the civil courts cannot function, and that is one of the keys, as the Supreme Court noted, to martial law.

The martial law concept in the U.S. is closely tied with the right of habeas corpus, which is in essence the right to a hearing on lawful imprisonment, or more broadly, the supervision of law enforcement by the judiciary. The ability to suspend habeas corpus is often equated with martial law.[citation needed] Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution states, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."


In United States law, martial law is limited by several court decisions that were handed down between the American Civil War and World War II. In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval. On October 1, 2002 United States Northern Command was established to provide command and control of Department of Defense homeland defense efforts and to coordinate defense support of civil authorities.[13]

The National Guard is an exception, since unless federalized, they are under the control of state governors.[14] This was changed briefly: Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122), was signed by President Bush on October 17, 2006, and allowed the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities. Title V, Subtitle B, Part II, Section 525(a) of the JWDAA of 2007 reads "The [military] Secretary [of the Army, Navy or Air Force] concerned may order a member of a reserve component under the Secretary's jurisdiction to active duty...The training or duty ordered to be performed...may include...support of operations or missions undertaken by the member's unit at the request of the President or Secretary of Defense."[15] The President signed the Defense Authorization Act of 2008 on January 13, 2008. However, Section 1068 in the enacted 2008 defense authorization bill (H.R. 4986: "National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008") repealed this section of PL 109-364.[16]


Muggsy

[les strat]

Fortunately, being one of "them" I'll get to keep my guns....along with the other five of us on this forum.

Best wishes to all the rest of you guys/gals.

:cool:

I'll get to keep mine too, and I'm not one of "them". What guns? I sold all my guns....

Hehe.

That said, "them" here in my neck of the woods encourage self preservation in perilous times. We just went through one, and they get an A+ in my book. But I'm with Bawanna on seeing anyone try to take em.

[1radman]

"I'm sorry Les, but declaring martial law does suspend some of your rights."

In your recent memory lawfully armed citizens in NO were disarmed when they most needed protection.
And you're OK with this?
It's quite naive to trust any local, state or federal gov't entity to this extent.

[les strat]

Through out United States history are several examples of the imposition of martial law, aside from that during the Civil War.

During the War of 1812, General Andrew Jackson imposed martial law in New Orleans. Martial law was also imposed in a four mile radius around the vicinity. When word came of the end of the war, Jackson maintained martial law, contending that he had not gotten official word of the peace. A judge demanded habeas corpus for a man arrested for sedition. Rather than comply with the writ, Jackson had the judge arrested.

In 1892, at Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, rebellious mine workers blew up a mill and shot at strike-breaking workers. The explosion leveled a four-story building and killed one person. The governor declared martial law. At the same time, a request was made for federal troops to back guardsmen. Over 600 people were arrested. The list was whittled down to two dozen ring leaders who were tried in military court. While in prison, the mine workers formed a new union, the Western Federation of Miners.

In 1914, imposition of martial law climaxed the so-called Coal Field Wars in Colorado. Dating back decades, the conflicts came to a head in Ludlow in 1913. The Colorado National Guard was called in to quell the strikers. For a time, the peace was kept, but it is reported that the make-up of the Guard stationed at the mines began to shift from impartial normal troops to companies of loyal mine guards. Clashes increased and the proclamation of martial law was made by the governor. President Wilson sent in federal troops, eventually ending the violence.

In 1934, California Governor Frank Merriam placed the docks of San Francisco under martial law, citing "riots and tumult" resulting from a dock worker's strike. The Governor threatened to place the entire city under martial law. The National Guard was called in to open the docks, and a city-wide institution of martial law was averted when goods began to flow. The guardsmen were empowered to make arrests and to then try detainees or turn them over to the civil courts.

Martial law and San Francisco were no strangers - following the earthquake of 1906, the troops stationed in the Presidio were pressed into martial law service. Guards were posted throughout the city, and all dynamite was confiscated. The dynamite was used to destroy buildings in the path of fires, to prevent the fires from spreading. Troops were ordered to shoot looters.

Hawaii was placed under martial law in 1941, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Hawaiians were, and are, of Asian descent, and the loyalty of these people was called into question. After the war, the federal judge for the islands condemned the conduct of martial law, saying, "Gov. Poindexter declared lawfully martial law but the Army went beyond the governor and set up that which was lawful only in conquered enemy territory namely, military government which is not bound by the Constitution. And they ... threw the Constitution into the discard and set up a military dictatorship."

On 8/26/2005, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans was placed under martial law after widespread flooding rendered civil authority ineffective. The state of Louisiana does not have an actual legal construct called "martial law," but instead something quite like it: a state of public health emergency. The state of emergency allowed the governor to suspend laws, order evacuations, and limit the sales of items such as alcohol and firearms. The governor's order limited the state of emergency, to end on 9/25/2005, "unless terminated sooner."

There have been many instances of the use of the military within the borders of the United States, such as during the Whiskey Rebellion and in the South during the civil rights crises, but these acts are not tantamount to a declaration of martial law. The distinction must be made as clear as that between martial law and military justice: deployment of troops does not necessarily mean that the civil courts cannot function, and that is one of the keys, as the Supreme Court noted, to martial law.

The martial law concept in the U.S. is closely tied with the right of habeas corpus, which is in essence the right to a hearing on lawful imprisonment, or more broadly, the supervision of law enforcement by the judiciary. The ability to suspend habeas corpus is often equated with martial law.[citation needed] Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution states, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."


In United States law, martial law is limited by several court decisions that were handed down between the American Civil War and World War II. In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval. On October 1, 2002 United States Northern Command was established to provide command and control of Department of Defense homeland defense efforts and to coordinate defense support of civil authorities.[13]

The National Guard is an exception, since unless federalized, they are under the control of state governors.[14] This was changed briefly: Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122), was signed by President Bush on October 17, 2006, and allowed the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities. Title V, Subtitle B, Part II, Section 525(a) of the JWDAA of 2007 reads "The [military] Secretary [of the Army, Navy or Air Force] concerned may order a member of a reserve component under the Secretary's jurisdiction to active duty...The training or duty ordered to be performed...may include...support of operations or missions undertaken by the member's unit at the request of the President or Secretary of Defense."[15] The President signed the Defense Authorization Act of 2008 on January 13, 2008. However, Section 1068 in the enacted 2008 defense authorization bill (H.R. 4986: "National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008") repealed this section of PL 109-364.[16]


Muggsy



We don't have the military to control our well-armed, highly populated country. China does. I am not worried about martial law, but if I lived in a urban environment, I would. Our military and LEO's can't handle all of rural US.

It was the police and NG in NO that pulled this silly unconstitutional BS on innocent people cause they couldn't control the real problematic people, so they went on a power trip. I don't live in NO. Thanks God. My guns will go nowhere. I'll promise you that. You quote the "cold dead fingers" mantra all you want. I'll just live it.

[ltxi]

Les, we really don't care about taking all of your guns. If they're internal lock equipped the plan is to simply have NSA activate the remote locking system. It's the older rest of them you're going to have to fight for.

[les strat]

We really don't care about taking all of your guns. If they're internal lock equipped the plan is to simply have NSA activate the remote locking system. It's the older rest of them you're going to have to fight for.

Glad I plugged my Hilary hole in my snubbie :D

[ltxi]

Glad I plugged my Hilary hole in my snubbie :D

Hope, or not, you also removed the internals where the chip is buried and didn't just pull and plug the mechanical key way bit.

[1radman]

Les, we really don't care about taking all of your guns. If they're internal lock equipped the plan is to simply have NSA activate the remote locking system. It's the older rest of them you're going to have to fight for.
I better activate my bioelectromagno-adapter to foil the remote locking counter measure!

[1radman]

Les, we really don't care about taking all of your guns. If they're internal lock equipped the plan is to simply have NSA activate the remote locking system. It's the older rest of them you're going to have to fight for.
ltxi,
You said "we"...I knew you were one of "them"!...Not sure what you're saying there...Have another drink and get back to us.

[wyntrout]

If WE have to evacuate again, I'll take all of my guns and all or most of my ammo, though it's a lot more than in 1999 when we evacuated for Hurricane Floyd... big waste of time.

My full-sized AWD van will hold everything that we might need. the trouble is that it takes so long to load EVERYTHING! I have this "problem" every time I want to travel. Maybe I'll leave some behind now that I have a safe... decisions....

At least I don't have any of those "smart weapons" with chips and electronics... EMP knocks all of that crap out, anyhow... maybe deactivates the weapons... high tech paperweights or rocks!

Wynn:)

[1radman]

If WE have to evacuate again, I'll take all of my guns and all or most of my ammo, though it's a lot more than in 1999 when we evacuated for Hurricane Floyd... big waste of time.

My full-sized AWD van will hold everything that we might need. the trouble is that it takes so long to load EVERYTHING! I have this "problem" every time I want to travel. Maybe I'll leave some behind now that I have a safe... decisions....

At least I don't have any of those "smart weapons" with chips and electronics... EMP knocks all of that crap out, anyhow... maybe deactivates the weapons... high tech paperweights or rocks!

Wynn:)

Hey Wyntrout,
+1 on all but Hurricane Floyd. Here in Southern VA we were hit hard. 10 days without power and out of work 2 weeks due to flooding really sucked. Fortunately I had a generator and enough food. Guns and ammo were not needed but were of course ready to go.
I think the way to go is be prepared for 2 scenarios; a rapid evacuation and a plan where you have more time to bug out.

[JFootin]

At least I don't have any of those "smart weapons" with chips and electronics... EMP knocks all of that crap out, anyhow... maybe deactivates the weapons... high tech paperweights or rocks!

Wynn:)

Modded Nerf Gun Zaps Those Pesky RFID Chips (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/09/chris-dumm/modded-nerf-gun-zaps-those-pesky-rfid-chips/)

[wyntrout]

My wife was going to take our AWD Aerostar van and the dog and leave without me, so I had to go. It took about 15 minutes to get to the other side of town... 12 miles... then there was a big parking lot... almost 5 hours to go another 60 miles to Lake City where we pulled off and spent the night in a convenience store parking lot just south of I-10. We haven't really considered evacuation since then... haven't needed it.

I also now have a big generator that will pull the AC, too. After a day or so, there may not be gas and it gets expensive, though.

They were only using the Westbound lanes that year for evacuation. Now they use all four lanes of I-10 for Westbound traffic. We were gone about 24 hours and it was a much quicker return trip home.

My GMC Safari AWD passenger van has plenty of space and we can sleep in it, have a potty, and DC-powered coolers... and if it's hot, I've learned it's cheap and comfortable to leave the engine running and the AC on... 31-gallon tank.

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

Hmmm... pointing what looks like a gun at armed people, then making flashes... deadly idea... gives rise to a Darwinian Moment.:eek:

Wynn:)

[1radman]

Modded Nerf Gun Zaps Those Pesky RFID Chips (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/09/chris-dumm/modded-nerf-gun-zaps-those-pesky-rfid-chips/)

WTF?... :001_huh:

[ltxi]

ltxi,
You said "we"...I knew you were one of "them"!...Not sure what you're saying there...Have another drink and get back to us.


I did. I admitted to that back on post #37 to this thread...almost before I began drinking.

[tv_racin_fan]

Fortunately, being one of "them" I'll get to keep my guns....along with the other five of us on this forum.

Best wishes to all the rest of you guys/gals.

:cool:

They come to take my guns they can have em.. I can make more.

[tv_racin_fan]

Hope, or not, you also removed the internals where the chip is buried and didn't just pull and plug the mechanical key way bit.

I run all new items thru the microwave to bust those chips.

[muggsy]

To those of you who question my patriotism, I chose to serve my country for six years on active duty during the height of the Vietnam War when serving your country wasn't considered the popular thing to do. I did so to repay a debt that I felt that I owe to those who served before me and who enabled me to live free in the greatest nation on the face of the earth. I first became a member of the NRA in 1958 and became a life member of the NRA in 1972. No one believes in freedom more that I do. My grand parents came to this country from Soviet bloc nations. I also believe in following the law. If you consider that unpatriotic then so be it. I make no apologies for my views.

[les strat]

Muggsy, I SO respect you and anyone that serve(d) for our country. I just hope that in a time of executive power abuse on our own citizens, our men serving would turn on the powers-that-be and be real patriots. In addition to these FEMA camps everywhere, this questionnaire of men in the miltary if they would fire upon US citizens is really a scary thing to me. Again, being a patriot is doing what's best for the citizens of our country, not following orders. Somehow, the definition has changed to thinking everything our govt does, we have to back them, even in a time of war.

[wyntrout]

Muggsy, I don't question your patriotism. You do seem to have strong feelings about law and the government... as in the government should be obeyed and you seem to place too much faith in the government and the LAW to be "just"... Just my opinion.

I've run across this document several times... haven't read it, but looked at it again today as I happened across it while looking for some other files.

It's called The Law... by
Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bastiat)

The book:

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

The brief Foreward by Thomas J. DiLorenzo is well worth reading and may lead many of us to explore the book itself.

I think it should rank high on the list of documents about freedom, government, and the LAW. We would all probably benefit from perusing it.

JMHO.

Wynn:)

[les strat]

Muggsy, I don't question your patriotism. You do seem to have strong feelings about law and the government... as in the government should be obeyed and you seem to place too much faith in the government and the LAW to be "just"... Just my opinion.

I've run across this document several times... haven't read it, but looked at it again today as I happened across it while looking for some other files.

It's called The Law... by
Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bastiat)

The book:

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

The brief Foreward by Thomas J. DiLorenzo is well worth reading and may lead many of us to explore the book itself.

I think it should rank high on the list of documents about freedom, government, and the LAW. We would all probably benefit from perusing it.

JMHO.

Wynn:)

Wynn, thanks. The foreward and first few pages are a great read that could make liberals AND conservatives stop and scratch their heads about certain points of their beliefs. I'll have to read through most of it on my lunch tomorrow.

[wyntrout]

I need to see if I can load it on my phone and read it. Sometimes I'm sitting around waiting on an appointment and get a chance to read on my phone.

Wynn:)

[ltxi]

I doubt anyone here questions your patriotism, muggsy. I certainly don't. I can't agree with your expressed strong faith in our government and that laws are always just and/or justly applied. Pretty much with Wynn on that. However, that's an entirely different issue than patriotism. One of the truly great things about this country is government may be openly questioned and that's not considered disloyal.

[muggsy]

To clarify my position, I do not trust in government. I trust in God and the Constitution of the United States. It is up to us to elect men and women of good character who have strong moral underpinnings. If we do we have nothing to fear. If we don't, no gun will protect you and everything will be lost. And, if you do not believe in what I've just written, may God help you.

[les strat]

Sad thing is, the 2 jokers that we end up picking from are not always representative of our own beliefs. Lesser of 2 evils if you will. I will vote for anyone over what we have now, but don't think just because they are a republican that they are going to be good for our country. But it seems like those who gets that far up the ladder has to do with money and not who we might necessarily think would do a good job for us and not drag us farther towards destruction of our nation.

[wyntrout]

Men being the weak creatures they are, aren't perfect, and no matter what good intentions they may have, when they get into public office, they soon think of nothing but getting re-elected and and are soon wooed by the lobbyists and special interests, succumbing to their sweet "somethings" to maintain their new "station" in life with all of the luxurious trappings the tax payers can afford.

I've seen too many politicians scoff at the limitations of the U.S. Constitution, openly laughing at the reporter who asked about its constraints on them. The president would like to completely abolish the document. They want to do as they will... the "people" don't pay that much attention... most are just interested in keeping the handouts coming. Soon all of the productive people will be enslaved by the system, working to pay the levies on them by the politicians who've promised much to the non-working "entitled class" who do nothing but consume and produce more dependent mouths and future voters for the same.

It DOES seem like our way of life is doomed... and the productive people WILL be slaves... working to support the non-productive, ever-growing "entitled" class with all of the "rights" and none of the responsibilities.

It really pisses me off that my military pension and my Social Seucrity are lumped in with the so-called entitlements, along with every form of "welfare". I fulfilled a contract for my retirement and Social Security. I worked and put my life on the line in defense of our country and its foreign and domestic goals and policies. I held up my end of the bargain, and it seems I'm begrudged those promises made to me when I accepted the contractual duties to defend our country.

I can't see some wonderful, honest politician getting into the highest office in the land and effecting any great changes to undo any of the calamitous erosion of the Constitutional safeguards for our freedoms. We're just one Supreme Court Justice away from the tyranny of the masses... fulfilling some Marxist Utopian dream of the common man's triumph over the Capitalists... the "Greedy Rich"... who made our country the great nation of opportunity that drew so many people from all over the world.

Dang... just get carried away... sorry... a little thread drift.:rolleyes: Past time to shut up and start getting ready for bed!

Anyhow... JMHO

Wynn:behindsofa::blah::typing:

[Tilos]

Yep, a poor man never gave me a job, only a rich man would take a chance and hire me...not his secretary:madgrin:



+1 on the judge appointment:faint2:

Tilos

[tv_racin_fan]

Either SS and Retirement are entitlements, meaning you are entitled to the funds due, according to how much you or your employer paid in or equivilent or they are not, meaning you aint entitled to them no matter how much you may have paid in.

SS funds are in fact not an entitlement and regardless of what your politicians have told you they are aware of that FACT. You are in fact not entitled to a penny of those funds and GOVT can decide tomorrow to not fund the payouts and YOU have no recourse.

According to the SCOTUS ruling circa 1937 in Helvering VS Davis or Davis VS Helvering SS is simply a TAX and all funds are to be placed in the general fund and they are not to be earmarked. THAT is because any other thing and SS was not Constitutional and would have gone BYE BYE way back then.

[wyntrout]

You can get the Kindle version of The Law on Amazon.com for only 99¢. I did that and can read it when I want on my cell phone. I have the kindle App for Android... handy. I've read over three novels that way.

Wynn:)

[les strat]

Wyn, that link you gave allowed me to save a copy of it on my droid as an Adobe file.

[JFootin]

Wyn, that link you gave allowed me to save a copy of it on my droid as an Adobe file.

What link?

[wyntrout]

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

Downloadable!

Wynn:)

[JFootin]

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

Downloadable!

Wynn:)

Thank you!

A little humor:
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/John_England/Misc/2012-01-31-humor-obama.jpg

[getsome]

Ok you fellows got this old naive country boy a little skeerd now...My original thought was how did the Police in N.O. know whos house to go to to find the guns to confiscate and why didn't they just lie and say they didn't have any weapons?.. Then y'all started talking about guns having RFID tags installed so I want to know is that really true?... Now stop laughing cause this is a real question.... I have had this question on my mind for some time and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it was true...I'm gonna wrap my pistols in tin foil from now on just in case...

Now as to the National Guard, I lived in Charlotte N.C. when hurricane Hugo went through there and tore the place up...Had no power for 12 days due to all the power lines down everywhere and I for one was glad when the Guard showed up to help out and control looting...The thought never crossed my mind that they might be there to take away guns and they didn't but were a great assist to Police and Fire depts that were overwelmed...

[Bawanna]

What the heck is an RFID tag. Now I'm skeered too.

[tv_racin_fan]

Radio Frequency ID.

Yes, at least one manufacturer is using them for in house inventory control.

[Tilos]

I lost all my guns in a tragic boating accident:(

[Bawanna]

I lost all my guns in a tragic boating accident:(

Aww man, what a coincidence. Was that you that crashed into my super yacht. Never saw one go down so fast. All guns on board. That was tragic indeed. Had Flipper not been close by and drug me back to the harbor I'd probably not be writing this today.

[Bill K]

Question... For those of us who have served (USMC 1962-66) are we still under the oath we took to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic? Think there was also something about obeying all "lawful" orders.

[wyntrout]

I saw someone questioning a Marine Colonel online... had him on camera and asked him about confiscating civilian guns if ordered... he started off with something about Marines obeying orders, then was asked about orders that were unconstitutional or unlawful... got to hemming and hawing a bit... clearly hadn't give that enough thought.

Wynn:D

[ltxi]

What the heck is an RFID tag. Now I'm skeered too.

RFID tags are the real reason tv_racin_fan runs all his new guns through the microwave. :cool:

[LMT42]

Ok you fellows got this old naive country boy a little skeerd now...My original thought was how did the Police in N.O. know whos house to go to to find the guns to confiscate and why didn't they just lie and say they didn't have any weapons?.. Then y'all started talking about guns having RFID tags installed so I want to know is that really true?... Now stop laughing cause this is a real question.... I have had this question on my mind for some time and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it was true...I'm gonna wrap my pistols in tin foil from now on just in case...

Now as to the National Guard, I lived in Charlotte N.C. when hurricane Hugo went through there and tore the place up...Had no power for 12 days due to all the power lines down everywhere and I for one was glad when the Guard showed up to help out and control looting...The thought never crossed my mind that they might be there to take away guns and they didn't but were a great assist to Police and Fire depts that were overwelmed...

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2011/09/12/new-worry-rfid-tracking-chips-in-firearms/

Doesn't look like anything to worry about. Besides, I don't think American manufacturers would be dumb enough to use them or they'd soon be bankrupt.

"BOTTOM LINE: The Chiappa PASSIVE RFID can be read ONLY when passed within (2-3 inches) of an active (and powered) reader that is dialed in for the particular long antenna radio frequency of the RFID-this is not random. And it will NOT go into operation for a year or more.
SUMMARIZING: RFIDs have NO power source or GPS locator. Rest assured they are NOT transmitting your identification and location information to a Chiappa Firearm tasked CIA satellite.
RFID Removal: For those still concerned you can simply remove the grip and remove the hot glued RFID from the frame in the grip area when (over a year from now) these begin to appear."

[les strat]

What company??? The world wants to know.

[tv_racin_fan]

RFID tags are the real reason tv_racin_fan runs all his new guns through the microwave. :cool:

Taint so!

I run em thru to get the cosmoline out of them lil creviceses... :angel:

[tv_racin_fan]

I don't see it as that big of a deal. They can easily be disabled if you want that and so far no one has suggested tracking of "civilian" user (that I am aware of) only for inventory usages, AND on site security.

http://www.skyrfid.com/RFID_Weapons_Management.php

I'm guessing if it works as it is claimed to work that many more manufacturers will follow suit. Glueing it under the grip is not a worry molding it inside the polymer frame might be.

[jlottmc]

Question... For those of us who have served (USMC 1962-66) are we still under the oath we took to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic? Think there was also something about obeying all "lawful" orders.

I don't know about you, but I still say yes to that. I know what it means for me to take an oath, and though it gets repeated at every re-enlistment, I still take it very seriously. Thing about that, I know which orders are lawful, and will act accordingly. Let me be clear, the confiscating of arms is not lawful among others. I also believe that when this goes down, you all know which side I fall on. That being the side of right and the free, not some government take over.

[jlottmc]

Thank you!

A little humor:
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/John_England/Misc/2012-01-31-humor-obama.jpg


Good thing there is not so much of that around these day8s or they might make a killin'.