Charter Arms Dixie Derringer (.22 magnum)

[Scoundrel]

The back story on this is here, in case you are interested: http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=124224&postcount=56

The short version: I bought a Dixie Derringer, shot 67 rounds through it, and it fell apart. I contacted Charter Arms. They were very nice. They sent me a pre-paid shipping label, and I sent it back to them. I discussed the possibility of trading it for a .22LR version, and the customer service person indicated that this was an option. I included that information in the letter describing the problem, saying I'd actually rather go with the .22LR version and put that in the box with the gun.

Fast forward to present day: I called for a status update on my gun. The customer service person put me on hold and dropped my call (that can happen to anyone). I called back and got a different person, who was aware that I was looking for a status update and took my call from there. She was the shipping person, and also admitted having a limited understanding of what was going on, but the person I really wanted to talk to was out of the office at the moment. But, for the time being, she attempted an explanation.

Apparently, there is a delay in getting my gun back because the person that usually fixes the guns left, and they are training a new person to fix them. That makes me a little nervous, but I guess there would be oversight and they'd make sure it was done right as part of the training.

I then asked about the part where I said I'd prefer to swap for the .22LR version, and she told me that they don't have any of those manufactured at this time. Wow, and bummer.

Anyway, so then I asked about the possibility of just getting a refund and forgetting it ever happened. She couldn't authorize that, I needed to talk to the guy who was out of the office for that. She promised a callback from that person within an hour or so. It never came.

They're closed now, but I'll try again on Monday to see what I can find out and what can be done.

At this point, I don't really want a repaired or even a replacement .22 Magnum mini-revolver. I'd just be afraid of the thing pounding itself apart again.

[ltxi]

Once upon a time, in a land close by, but in a time very long ago....Charter Arms made the most innovative, lightweight "J-frames" in the land. These humble craftsmen soon aroused the ire of the sleeping giant Smith & Wesson who enlisted it's neighbor in the shire of Colt in a crusade against the rebellious upstarts.

Before long, the full might of the giants had come to bear....and their mighty armies soon ground the Charter Arms peasants, their families, and their entire village into dust....presumably unrecognizable dust as a warning to others.

But as often happens, opportunistic sewer rats made off with some of the unnoticed, neglected remains. Preying on the unfortunate Charter Arms' dead citizen's good names, they began selling smoke and mirrors copies of Pathfinder, Bulldog, and others made of wood, stone, and clay to the unsuspecting.

The sewer rats failed, but not really as sewer rats just move on to fresh meat and are replaced by others....as in this story.

Charter Arms is dead and has been dead for decades. I sorta admire, but not really, the current management's ingenuity at attempting to steal from NAA in order to keep the wood, stone, and clay rip-off legacy alive.

Mini-mags are great guns....as currently built by NAA.

[Scoundrel]

Last night I was YouTube surfing for something completely different, and found a video of a guy shooting an NAA 22 mini mag. He was having trouble hitting bottles at 3 feet, and there were at least a half dozen FTF in the video.

Can't find the video again, sorry.

Could be this guy was just a dweeb and was using crap ammo, but I wonder if it's possible to make a gun that small that uses 22 magnum that functions well and doesn't shake itself apart.

I was quite happy with the accuracy and function of mine until it started falling apart in my hand.

But I do take your point about Charter Arms, and when the dust settles from this adventure, I will not be buying from them again. Hope they don't read this before my issue gets sorted - but then, if they cared enough to scour forums for stuff like this, they'd be a better company for it.

[Scoundrel]

Ah, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gscl5vPPsyc&feature=related

[ltxi]

I have several/many NAA and Freedom Arms (NAA's "predecessor") mini-revolvers. Many of them I treat as collectables....like the .22 shorts, belt buckle guns, etc....but I've shot every one I own and have never, ever experienced a misfire. They have also all been as accurate as anyone could have reasonably expected.

Can't speak to any UTube dweep's experiences, but.....I have a 1 and 5/8 bbl mini mag that has been my "speedo" gun for 15-20 years. It's companion, a 1 and 1/8 inch version, is second only because it keyholes early...which is not necessarily a bad thing for an in your face arm.

In any event, you do not want to be anywhere within knife range plus distance of me if I have either of these guns in my hand.

I treasure my mid-late 60's Pathfinder. One of the first revolvers I ever owned and I will still own it when I die.

[Scoundrel]

I have several/many NAA and Freedom Arms (NAA's "predecessor") mini-revolvers. Many of them I treat as collectables....like the .22 shorts, belt buckle guns, etc....but I've shot every one I own and have never, ever experienced a misfire. They have also all been as accurate as anyone could have reasonably expected.

Can't speak to any UTube dweep's experiences, but.....I have a 1 and 5/8 bbl mini mag that has been my "speedo" gun for 15-20 years. It's companion, a 1 and 1/8 inch version, is second only because it keyholes early...which is not necessarily a bad thing for an in your face arm.

In any event, you do not want to be anywhere within knife range plus distance of me if I have either of these guns in my hand.

I treasure my mid-late 60's Pathfinder. One of the first revolvers I ever owned and I will still own it when I die.

How many rounds would you say you've put through that .22 magnum mini-revolver?

[ltxi]

Ah, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gscl5vPPsyc&feature=related

I can only fondly hope this clown is my next opponent. :cool:

[ltxi]

How many rounds would you say you've put through that .22 magnum mini-revolver?

Not really sure. I'd guess around 1000 or so over the years. Since it's in my back up carry stable I do shoot it minimally regularly.

[Scoundrel]

Not really sure. I'd guess around 1000 or so over the years. Since it's in my back up carry stable I do shoot it minimally regularly.

So, more than 67 then. :)

<Sigh>

[CJB]

Hey... if Charter Arms was good enough for Son of Sam, it should be good enough for most anyone....

I carried a Freedom Arms 22mag and shot... oh... maybe two boxes, 100 rounds through it. Never cozied up to the kick, or the thought of blowing a finger tip off. I think I ended up trading it for microphone (Blues Brothers style...)

[tv_racin_fan]

Well...all I know is that I want one of these.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/344/products_id/70874

I believe they have a KIT that comes with extra projectiles an extra cylinder and a flap holster plus the normal stuff.

[KMA]

Ah, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gscl5vPPsyc&feature=related

I might be wrong, but I think the best for him would be if he stayed away from firearms and found a different hobby. :rolleyes:

[ltxi]

Hey... if Charter Arms was good enough for Son of Sam, it should be good enough for most anyone....

I carried a Freedom Arms 22mag and shot... oh... maybe two boxes, 100 rounds through it. Never cozied up to the kick, or the thought of blowing a finger tip off. I think I ended up trading it for microphone (Blues Brothers style...)

Honest curiosity......what did you mean by the concern of blowing a finger tip off comment?

[guido4198]

I've owned a tiny NAA .22 LR 5-shot for several decades. Carried it in my front pants pocket A LOT. Shot it enough to know it's limitations(and mine when shooting it).
I didn't buy it to defend myself from "bottles at 3 ft". I consider it a last-ditch weapon to get someone OFF me... It's never failed to function. I have complete confidence in it's ability...and mine....at "arm's length" or less range. I've dropped 1800 lb. Charlois Bulls with a .22 LR round...I've NO DOUBT in it's ability to stop a threat if properly applied..in an ear for example.
Sorry to hear about the decline of Charter Arms. I've also owned and shot one of their "Undercover .38's" for a long time. Once again..NEVER had a failure. Key there apparently being "for a long time". I bought mine in the 1980's.

[ltxi]

I misspoke. I kept writing Pathfinder when I meant Undercover. The Pathfinder was the .22. I've never owned one of those. I've owned three of the original company's Undercovers. Still have my first. Sold the other two to deserving friends who really wanted one.

Wide blade front sights, durable 16 oz no side plate frame, frame mounted firing pin with hammer block safety, really accurate. Doesn't sound like much today, but astounding innovations in the late '60s

[TheTman]

I have a Charter Arms "son of Sam" .44 special snubby. It had to go back to the factory once due to the cylinder having to much play and getting light strikes from the firing pin. Seems like they got it fixed and back in my hands within 2 weeks. It's been working perfectly ever since. I've heard that Charter Arms is a gun you carry a lot and don't shoot very often. That's about what I do with my snubby, carry it a lot and take it to the range once in and put a couple cylinders thru it to make sure it's still functioning properly, then get out something more durable for the rest of the range session.

[tv_racin_fan]

I had a Charter Arms revolver for a brief time. When I was thinking about getting it the wife went with me and told me we dont need a handgun... She shot it and said we dont want this thing.. I told her how much my friend wanted for it and she said pay the man and lets go.

Anyhooo I let someone else check it out and he showed me that that revolver had a timing issue and I needed to get it fixed. I took it to a gunsmith who told me he might have a problem getting parts since it was Charter Arms and he had been having that issue of late. He kept it for a month and tried to fix it but without parts he could only do so much. It was fine so long as one did not go dead slow on co cking the hammer or pulling the trigger. My buddy came back to me some time later knowing it had that issue and wanted it back.. he gave me twice what I had originally gave him and we were both happy.

I got a Ruger GP100 some time later and still have it.

[ltxi]

Prolly true for later model pretenders. Mine has a few thousand rounds through it and is still a pleasure to shoot, although it's mostly retired...for cause:

Back in the day, when I was an even more complete idiot than I am now I was running handloads through it that almost made proof loads seem mild. That it ate all that without blowing up is a true testament. But it did stretch the frame to the point where it now has a one pound sa trigger pull. Still safe da and I occasionally still carry it with standard pressure Fed NyClads out of nostalgia.

That would not have worked well at all after the sewer rats began making them out of clay.

[tv_racin_fan]

The one I had experience with was bought by me back in the 1980's and I got no clue when it was made. I heard they have gotten much worse and then clawed some back. I'd be sure to check one out very very well before I bought one today.

I like the GP100 so well I got one of it's smaller siblings, the SP101.. even got a pair of them and want at least one more.

[ltxi]

Charter went bankrupt sometime in the '80s and parts were hard to come by. The only good thing I have to say about the initial sewer rat follow on is that their adherence to the original design made parts available again. The current company incarnation appears to be more production quality reputable than the last....but imo just a bit better class of sewer rat.

RIP Doug and your dream. You are both appreciated and missed.

[Scoundrel]

I called Charter again today. I got to talk to the President and Vice President all in one phone call, yay! This would impress me more if I didn't know that you can start a sole proprietorship for $69 and title yourself "President".

Anyway, Nick (the President) had some trouble finding the status of my gun. After a while of being on hold, my call was picked up by Terry Rush (the Vice President). Apparently, my gun ended up on his desk because I asked for a replacement with a .22LR and they don't have any of those right now, so my gun found a dead end in their labyrinth.

I spoke with Terry about what went wrong with mine, and he assured me that, while he is unable to explain why mine failed, they have not had these failures with other units. He was certain that if he just replaced it with another .22 Magnum, it would function fine for me. However, if I was willing to wait, he'd be just as happy to send me a .22LR when they have some more. ETA on that is two weeks.

I told him that I really think I'd like to go with the .22LR, and that I am fine with waiting two weeks (plus shipping) to get it. I can be a patient guy, as long as I know WHY I am waiting. I get impatient and pushy when I don't know what's going on.


So, while I have an audience (this thread), let me ask you guys a question:

After hanging up with Terry, I called back to ask their shipping person about logistics. I was under the impression that because they'll be sending me a gun with a different serial number, it would need to go to an FFL, not directly to me. What I called for was to ensure that they had the FFL information (I included it with my problem description, but sometimes there are internal communication failures, you know). I had only gotten as far as covering the reason I expected them to need FFL information, to be sure we were on the same page, when the shipping person said they would not actually need to send it to an FFL. She said they would send it directly to my home. I questioned her about this, and I got back an answer that very clearly sounded like she did not understand it, but had rehearsed it. She said that they spoke with the ATF about it, and because it was not my fault that the gun had to go in for replacement, I should not have to pay an FFL $35 to transfer it when it came back - so they would ship it directly to me, and it was then my responsibility to register the serial number change.

This sounded wrong on two points: 1. Why would the ATF care about whether the end user got shafted over $35 or not? That sounds uncharacteristically kind of them. 2. How does an end user go about registering a serial number change? Wouldn't that imply that an end user somehow has access to this kind of thing, which would render FFLs obsolete? Or, does this only matter if your state is a "registration state" (mine is not)?


I am concerned about this, because if Charter ships a gun with a different serial number directly to my house, I am worried that I could somehow get in trouble for it later, and I would also be worried that a gun that is no longer in my possession/control is still out there somewhere, listed in my name.

Can anyone offer some definite, real world answers to my concerns? I am considering asking the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office, but I don't know if I can trust the knowledge of whoever answers the phone there, either. I need someone who knows, and is willing to provide links to the laws on this subject for me. Or at least where to start looking.

[Bawanna]

I don't have links or proof but she is wrong. They are relying on you to present yourself to the sheriffs office, actually they can't do it, you'd have to go to a FFL and have them do the form and put it in your name. It's still gonna cost you the FFL fee if they will even do it. It's like buying from some legal beagle that insist on a recorded transfer. You both go to a dealer and they do the transfer.

If she ships you a gun with a new serial number and no paperwork I'd personally consider it a gift from above and I would not register it. I'd be more worried about the one you sent back and where it ends up. Most likely destroyed but who knows for sure.

[JFootin]

I don't have links or proof but she is wrong. They are relying on you to present yourself to the sheriffs office, actually they can't do it, you'd have to go to a FFL and have them do the form and put it in your name. It's still gonna cost you the FFL fee if they will even do it. It's like buying from some legal beagle that insist on a recorded transfer. You both go to a dealer and they do the transfer.

If she ships you a gun with a new serial number and no paperwork I'd personally consider it a gift from above and I would not register it. I'd be more worried about the one you sent back and where it ends up. Most likely destroyed but who knows for sure.

+1^. Just call her back and insist that she send it to your FFL. Don't take no for an answer.

[Scoundrel]

Bawanna, if I sold a firearm privately, I'd want some way to prove that it left my possession, in case the buyer or someone who got their hands on it later committed a crime with it ditched it at the scene, and some heavies came knocking at my door because I was the last name on record for it.

I don't think it's necessary to go to an FFL if one wishes to have a record of a private firearms sale. Here's a form for voluntary registration of a firearm sale. My sister asked me to fill this out when she sold me a Ruger.

DOL Website, firearms forms section: http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/faforms.html
Direct link to the PDF: http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf

I like the idea of the new one not being recorded in my name (but who am I kidding, Charter will have a record of where they sent it). But, I really want to scrub the record of the old one.

I'll go talk to the FFL tomorrow (TDR Firearms in Snohomish). I've already discussed using them as the FFL to send the new one to, and they said they'd do the transfer at no charge, given the circumstances (I bought the gun from them originally, it broke, etc).

So I think JFootin has the right answer - get them to send it to the FFL, because they probably don't care either way where they ship it to, and then have the FFL do the transfer. If they ship it to my house anyway, I'll take it to the FFL and ask them to do the paperwork anyway.

One way or another, I want a paper trail saying I sent that old serial number to the manufacturer, and got a different one back.

[Bawanna]

You won't have to insist. When it gets shipped the shipping people will know the rules and it will be stalled for a day while they once again locate your FFL. No other way.

I always always always get a Bill of sale when I buy or sell a gun. I rarely sell. But I won't register anything the law doesn't require me too.
As long as you have a bill of sale when they come looking for the gun your golden. Name address maybe a driver license number and date and TIME of sale. Your covered.

[Scoundrel]

S'pose a bill of sale makes sense, but I'd rather prevent them from ever putting a shadow on my door. I guess probably for the same reason you want to avoid registering if you can legally do so.

Looking more closely at that form I linked above, it has a section for lost/stolen/etc. and an open text field where I can describe the etc. I think that unless the FFL assures me that the're doing something which scrubs the old serial number, I can send in that form with Section C empty, but Section D filled out with a summary of what happened and contact info for Charter Arms. If I scan it, keep a copy, and send it in, that should be good enough.

[gb6491]

....
So, while I have an audience (this thread), let me ask you guys a question:

After hanging up with Terry, I called back to ask their shipping person about logistics. I was under the impression that because they'll be sending me a gun with a different serial number, it would need to go to an FFL, not directly to me. What I called for was to ensure that they had the FFL information (I included it with my problem description, but sometimes there are internal communication failures, you know). I had only gotten as far as covering the reason I expected them to need FFL information, to be sure we were on the same page, when the shipping person said they would not actually need to send it to an FFL. She said they would send it directly to my home. I questioned her about this, and I got back an answer that very clearly sounded like she did not understand it, but had rehearsed it. She said that they spoke with the ATF about it, and because it was not my fault that the gun had to go in for replacement, I should not have to pay an FFL $35 to transfer it when it came back - so they would ship it directly to me, and it was then my responsibility to register the serial number change.

This sounded wrong on two points: 1. Why would the ATF care about whether the end user got shafted over $35 or not? That sounds uncharacteristically kind of them. 2. How does an end user go about registering a serial number change? Wouldn't that imply that an end user somehow has access to this kind of thing, which would render FFLs obsolete? Or, does this only matter if your state is a "registration state" (mine is not)?


I am concerned about this, because if Charter ships a gun with a different serial number directly to my house, I am worried that I could somehow get in trouble for it later, and I would also be worried that a gun that is no longer in my possession/control is still out there somewhere, listed in my name.

Can anyone offer some definite, real world answers to my concerns? I am considering asking the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office, but I don't know if I can trust the knowledge of whoever answers the phone there, either. I need someone who knows, and is willing to provide links to the laws on this subject for me. Or at least where to start looking.
Not a real world answer, but by the ATF.gov website Charter may be correct:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-12.pdf
"12.6.2 Return of firearms delivered to an FFL for repair or customizing. A Form 4473 is not
required to record the disposition of a firearm delivered to an FFL for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when the firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom it was
received.194 See Section 9.5.1 suggesting the use of Forms 5 to document the delivery of a firearm to an
FFL for repair (or customizing) and the return of the firearm. The use of an ATF-approved Form 5 for
these transactions is beneficial to the registered owner of the firearm and to the FFL having the firearm
for repair or customizing. If the registered owner is inspected by ATF while the gun is away for repair
or customizing, an ATF-approved Form 5 will satisfy the inspector that the absence of the gun from
inventory is lawful and not due to a loss or unlawful transfer. If the FFL having the gun for repair or
customizing has an approved Form 5 for receipt of the gun, the FFL can establish to an ATF inspector’s
satisfaction that the gun is lawfully possessed."
Regards,
Greg

[Scoundrel]

That's a good answer. The phrase "or a replacement firearm" is the pivotal one. Serial numbers are not mentioned, but a replacement would have a different one for sure.

[tv_racin_fan]

Scoundrel short of going thru an FFL there is no way to prevent someone from coiming to you when a gun you purchased NEW got used in some sort of crime. AND I am not certain that going thru an FFL would prevent it, those records are kept by the FFL not sent to anyone as I understand it.

My mother "gave" me a firearm that I traded off. She also does not want someone coming to her door should that firearm get used in a crime. I simply pointed out that there is no way to prevent it that I am aware of and so long as she has the right to sell or give it away she ought to be covered telling them what happened to it. They would most likely take her word but check it out and once they come to me and find out what I did with it they will most likely go down the road in any event she will be covered as much as possible by me.

Bawanna could tell the truth of the matter here but as far as I know LEO would have to talk to the manufacturer who would tell them the distributor who would then tell them the FFL it went to and that FFL would have record of who it was sold to. As I understand it from there it can be sold without paper trail in most states. Some states require a purchasing permit I do believe.

[Scoundrel]

Scoundrel short of going thru an FFL there is no way to prevent someone from coiming to you when a gun you purchased NEW got used in some sort of crime. AND I am not certain that going thru an FFL would prevent it, those records are kept by the FFL not sent to anyone as I understand it.

My mother "gave" me a firearm that I traded off. She also does not want someone coming to her door should that firearm get used in a crime. I simply pointed out that there is no way to prevent it that I am aware of and so long as she has the right to sell or give it away she ought to be covered telling them what happened to it. They would most likely take her word but check it out and once they come to me and find out what I did with it they will most likely go down the road in any event she will be covered as much as possible by me.

Bawanna could tell the truth of the matter here but as far as I know LEO would have to talk to the manufacturer who would tell them the distributor who would then tell them the FFL it went to and that FFL would have record of who it was sold to. As I understand it from there it can be sold without paper trail in most states. Some states require a purchasing permit I do believe.


Most likely what this boils down to is:
1. I can show something (anything) that indicates it left my possession, and/or:
2. I can tell a good story that sounds feasible to whoever is investigating, and/or:
3. I don't smell funny to whoever is investigating.

[Bawanna]

Exactly. It's a trail. All new guns sold thru FFL (other than Fast and Furious of course) are trackable just as TV said. From there if it's been sold you gotta follow the trail. And many times the trail leads no where.

A lot of people don't get the buyers information so there's a dead end right there. And it's perfectly legal to sell and fortunately so far there's no requirement to register private party guns.

[Scoundrel]

I spoke with Terry at Charter again today. The gun show went well, and he was pleased with the trip.

And, they don't have a .22LR model for me yet. He thinks they'll have one in another week. He implied I'd get one of the first ones off the production line (which makes me nervous, too). I told him thanks, and that I'd call him again next week.

[Scoundrel]

Talked to Terry again.

They've machined the parts, and they're in polishing right now.
They hope to have them assembled and shipped out the door by this weekend.

He says that even though the serial number is different, they don't have to send it to an FFL, they'll send it directly to me. That seems odd to me, but I'm not complaining.

I'll call them again next week...

[Scoundrel]

I talked to the guy at Charter again on Monday.

This time, I learned that they've sold the rights to their .22LR mini-revolver, and they are making 50 more of them, and no more (I presume they are making 50 of them so that they will have stock to repair/replace them as needed).
I do not know if they sold the .22M one as well.

The guy said he was going to get the latest status on the production of those 50 .22LR models and find out when they could send me one. They've been "in production" for a long time now. My total wait time has now exceeded two months.

He said, a long time ago, that he has no idea why my first one fell apart, and that they don't normally do that.
I decided at that time that I wanted the LR version anyway, because the lower power was less likely to fall apart again.

Now I am concerned that:
A. I'll keep getting stalled and never actually get a .22LR mini-revolver from them, and/or
B. I'll get one, it will have problems, and I won't be able to get it repaired/replaced because they don't have any more.

I am thinking of asking for a full refund, but I doubt I'd get the full price including the gun shop's markup or MSRP back. I'd probably get wholesale.

I am also thinking of asking whether they're going to keep making the Magnum model, get them to send me a new one of those, and shoot it infrequently, with the lightest load I can find.

After fixing the problems with the used NAA .22LR revolver I traded for, I fired about 100 rounds through it, and have not fired more. I doubt I will fire it much. Maybe 5 rounds here and there, infrequently.
I carry it often as a backup, or when I can't carry anything bigger, and I am confident that I could get 5 good shots out of it and then run away / retreat to the car if needed.

If I got the 22 Magnum model, fired a few rounds to make sure it worked well, I probably wouldn't fire enough to wear it out again, even if it has the same problem my first one did.

So what do you think? Should I have them send me a Magnum back just to be done with it?

[CJB]

Not a real world answer, but by the ATF.gov website Charter may be correct:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-12.pdf
"12.6.2 Return of firearms delivered to an FFL for repair or customizing. A Form 4473 is not
required to record the disposition of a firearm delivered to an FFL for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when the firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom it was
received.194 See Section 9.5.1 suggesting the use of Forms 5 to document the delivery of a firearm to an
FFL for repair (or customizing) and the return of the firearm. The use of an ATF-approved Form 5 for
these transactions is beneficial to the registered owner of the firearm and to the FFL having the firearm
for repair or customizing. If the registered owner is inspected by ATF while the gun is away for repair
or customizing, an ATF-approved Form 5 will satisfy the inspector that the absence of the gun from
inventory is lawful and not due to a loss or unlawful transfer. If the FFL having the gun for repair or
customizing has an approved Form 5 for receipt of the gun, the FFL can establish to an ATF inspector’s
satisfaction that the gun is lawfully possessed."
Regards,
Greg

A year ago, I quoted another part of the law which also showed that Charter is correct. Gun manufacturers don't NEED to go FFL if the number changes, but they do.

In the past, I've had HK replace a P9s for me, no FFL. I've had Ruger replace a Super Blackhawk for me, no FFL. There was another... can't remember which one at the moment... no FFL. All new numbers. The law has not changed, CYA has it going differently. I know Bawanna and Jocko are gonna disagree.... but in a past post I've got the law (about 10 months ago). Its pretty clear, and ATF field office concurred.

[Scoundrel]

If anyone's still following this or cares:

Talked to Terry again today.

I've been hearing "one more week" for a couple of months now. When I called today, if he had said "one more week", I was going to push for a refund, and maybe just get another .22 magnum back.

But this time, he said that he thinks the gun will be assembled today. He's out tomorrow, but it should be tested and shipped by Thursday.

This is hopeful - at one point he was saying "a couple of weeks", then he was saying "one week", and now he's saying "should be assembled today" (and then needs to be tested and then shipped).

If he doesn't call me on Friday to say it's in the mail, then when I call back on Monday I will definitely be asking for a refund. I might accept a magnum.

The thing is, if I settle for getting back a .22 magnum, I feel like I'll be "settling for something less" because I don't have confidence that it won't shoot itself apart, and also I will have endured 3 months of patience only to get back the same thing I had originally - so waiting would have been a complete waste of time. If I get back a .22LR, I will at least feel as though the 3-month wait had some purpose/benefit. Oh, and I won't have to buy another caliber of ammo.

[SpecK]

For as much work as youve put in, I hope you get something that is worth your time. and soon!

[Scoundrel]

In terms of time/energy, I've lost big on this one. At this point, I just want a gun that works. My friend suggested that I call them and demand an upgrade to a .38 revolver for my trouble, but I'm just not good with strong-arm tactics like that.

[AJBert]

Somewhat off topic, but had a little FA five shot revolver come in the store yesterday. We bought it and it now has a price tag of a few bucks under $200. It is stainless with black plastic grips and looks to be in excellent condition.

Good deal or not? I have it on hold right now and this is my first foray into mini revolvers.

[Scoundrel]

That's about the price you can expect to pay for one of these guys, whatever brand.

I don't know what quality Freedom Arms guns are, but if I had it to do over again, I would spend a little extra and get the North American Arms one. I've had exposure to the NAA and to the Charter version of these. The NAA is superior.

But it's too late for both of us now.

[AJBert]

From my understanding, NAA was making theirs from FA patents, but not 100% sure on that.

[Scoundrel]

Regardless of the design, the quality of materials is paramount in these things, and that's where my .22 Magnum fell down.

[AJBert]

That's why I'm a bit comfortable with the .22lr vs the .22mag, plus the stainless helps, too

[Scoundrel]

That's why I'm a bit comfortable with the .22lr vs the .22mag, plus the stainless helps, too

Yep, and that's why I have been patient enough to wait 3 months - to get the LR version back from Charter instead of the Magnum which I originally bought.

[AJBert]

Well, put that cute little FA five shot mini on layaway yesterday...only way I can get something without the wife knowing!

[Scoundrel]

As expected, Terry did not call me back like he said he would.
UNexpectedly, today he says they shipped me a .22LR mini-revolver earlier this week.

I talked to their shipping folks and got a tracking number.
It left Connecticut on 4/9 and is due here 4/16.

Adult signature is required. Good thing I followed up on it and found out when it is due.
And, interestingly, it is not going to an FFL, it is going directly to me, even though it is a completely different gun than the one I sent to them.


THREE MONTHS later, this is finally getting resolved.

[AJBert]

Be sure to lets us know if in fact it does show up and be sure to post pics!

[Armybrat]

You're a patient man...waiting that long would've really ticked me off.

Hope the new gun provides you with a lot of fun.

I carried my NAA .22 Mag. for quite some time over 20 years ago. Bought it new for $80.

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w349/ScoPro/GregoryBirthday2011014.jpg

[Scoundrel]

You're a patient man...waiting that long would've really ticked me off.


I don't get called THAT often.

A couple of things mitigated my impatience:

1. I traded for an NAA .22LR revolver to keep me company while my Charter was at the shop,
2. I did NOT want them to send me back another of the same model, so I had to be patient while they scrounged a .22LR up for me.
3. They never got tired enough of me calling repeatedly to tell me to stop calling. If they had done that, I'd have gone through the roof.
4. Forward progress was being made.

There was a legitimate (I guess) reason why they did not have one to send me, and each 2nd or 3rd time I called, the process had moved one step closer to me getting one (we lost an employee - we're gearing up the line to make them - they're being stamped - they're being polished - the guy who does the polishing is on vacation - they're being assembled - they're being tested) - all a couple of weeks apart. Not enough time for me to get too antsy about any particular delay.

[Armybrat]

Well, I guess it provided you with some entertainment anyway.

BTW - I also have a NAA .22 LR, but the dang thing is too tiny for me to operate it properly. Am afeared I might shoot one of my digits off.

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w349/ScoPro/Armybrat%20Album1/Guns054.jpg

As you can see, I like mouseguns too.

[Scoundrel]

Yeah, it is a little scarey. I got a finger too close to the front once, hit it with a pretty good shockwave and got some bits of lead stuck in my finger.

[Scoundrel]

The replacement arrived today.

Different serial number. The last digit of the serial number is stamped so light it is barely readable, but the case has the number on it as well for confirmation.

It looks identical to the Magnum version, which means there's a fair bit of freebore in the cylinder. They use the same cylinder, it's just machined differently to fit the Magnum round or the LR round.

The overall size is significantly larger than the NAA (about 1/2 inch), even with the bulbous custom grip that was made for this particular unit. As a result it sticks further out of my change pocket in my jeans, and the grip is more recognizable as a gun grip.

It is quite obviously cast, not machined, and there are obvious defects in the casting including pitting and air bubbles.

I'm thinking this one is going to go to the range for test firing, then probably spend most of its life in the safe, unless I decide to sell it.

[Scoundrel]

Update: I can't believe I didn't notice this sooner. The inside of the barrel is totally messed up on this replacement .22 derringer they sent me. The rifling appears to be split/deformed on one side, and non-existent on the other side. One entire land is missing. One top of that, there is some stuff that looks like welding spatter in the grooves near the back. I've brushed the heck out of it and ran a bore snake through it a dozen times - that crap is not coming out of there.

This thing is a piece of crap and I am NEVER buying anything from Charter again. Ever.

I will call on Monday and tell Terry what a piece of junk this is and ask for my money back. I doubt I'll get it. I'm nervous about sending it to them and never getting my money, so I'm not sure whether I'll follow through with it.

I can't sell it. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror after doing that.

The bottom line is that I'll probably take it to the range to see just how bad it shoots, maybe try and scrape the spatter out of the barrel, and then if it doesn't improve, I might just take a sledgehammer to it and try to forget it ever happened.

[les strat]

Dang man, you just sold me on never buying CA piece in my lifetime. My buddy has a CA .357. It feels like it is made out of pot metal. Just doesn't have anywhere near the quality my S&W's have.