Need input on ammo for AR-15

[Scoundrel]

Disclaimer: I realize that I should be asking this on an AR-15 forum, but I don't want to go sign up on yet another forum right now, and I figured the people here might have some good input. I have not yet purchased an AR-15, but I am getting ready to.

I was wondering if some of you would be willing to go to this site: http://www.ammoman.com/c/8/223-556 and pick a few of these ammo types, and tell me why you would pick those ones. I could learn a lot from that and would be appreciate for well reasoned opinions.

[Thunder71]

For my first 100 rounds I went with American Eagle (Federal) and it functioned perfectly. I just got mine on Tuesday so I don't have a lot of time with it yet.

Local place had it on sale for $30/100 for reference.

Congrats on the decision to pick on an AR, one of the funnest guns I have now. :cool:

[CJB]

Did somebody ask or mention barrel twist?

[JimBianchi]

My DPMS M4 clone with a 16" 1/9 twist barrel will do 1.5in (or better) at 100yrds with 77grn match grade ammo. IF I could get a calm day and a better rest (I am too big for my current bench) I think I could do sub MOA.

I have tried a bunch of different types and weights and the heavies win out all day.

[Scoundrel]

I haven't bought the rifle yet. It will have whatever the "most common" barrel twist an "entry level" AR would normally have.

To be more clear, my ammunition preference is going to be "the cheapest stuff that does not have serious drawbacks that will piss me off". For example, if steel cased ammo is known to break ejectors in modern AR-15 rifles, I won't want that even though it is cheaper. Or, if some ammo is corrosive, or has a layer of shellac or something on it that glazes the inside of the barrel, I wouldn't want that either.

[JLeephoto]

I've bought thousands of rounds of 9mm and .223/5.56 from Luckygunner.com. The 55 gr FMJBT XM193 has worked well for me for plinking and it's priced pretty good at .34 per round.

[Ressom]

Looks like we have a little AR-15 club starting here at Kahr talk!

Mine should be here next week. It is my first rifle, so I am learning as well.

I ordered some Federal XM193 from here (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-xm193f-brown-box-5-56mm-55gr-fmj.html) to break it in. I am wondering if I could get Wolf ammo for it. I've always stayed away from Wolf for handgun ammo, but maybe it will work for rifle. It's as cheap as 9mm here (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AW223PFMJ55). I saw this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960) on youtube and he seems says Wolf is fine but you may sacrifice accuracy.

[yqtszhj]

Looks like we have a little AR-15 club starting here at Kahr talk!

Mine should be here next week. It is my first rifle, so I am learning as well.

I ordered some Federal XM193 from here (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-xm193f-brown-box-5-56mm-55gr-fmj.html) to break it in. I am wondering if I could get Wolf ammo for it. I've always stayed away from Wolf for handgun ammo, but maybe it will work for rifle.


I ordered a bunch of similar Federal at 5.25 a box a while back from Cabelas and got free shipping. The Palmetto link above is a good price and I have bought from them before with no issues.

I'm probably just paranoid but I don't shoot steel cased russian ammo through my AR. I have shot it in my 1911.

[CJB]

I haven't bought the rifle yet. It will have whatever the "most common" barrel twist an "entry level" AR would normally have.


No such dog. They vary all over the place. Anyplace from 1:14 (rare these days) to 1:12, 1:10, 1:9, 1:8, 1:7, 1:6.5 (also rare at the fastest twist).

They'll all shoot the 55g bullet well. The 62/63g bullets need the faster twists, The really heavy 70g bullets need faster twist yet again.

The Greenhill rifling twist equation:

Twist(in calibers)= 150/bullet length(in calibers)

There are variations in that formula for very fast (3000fps+) velocities, and they mostly take the "150" and increase to some slightly higher factor. About 175-185ish would be good for 3000fps+ if you average out all the many variations.

[Scoundrel]

At this point I am seriously eyeballing the Smith and Wesson 811020, which has:
16" 4140 steel M4 barrel
1:9" RH twist with 6 grooves & lands

[CJB]

1:9 is a good middle of the road twist

Should handle up to about 62g bullets - and perhaps a little more

[JLeephoto]

Scoundrel, I'm pretty new to this too. From what I understand those M&Ps are good quality ARs for the price. However, that's got a carbine length gas block. The mid-length gas blocks are the rage right now for their softer recoil and good reliability. You might consider something like a Bravo Company (BCM) complete upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.htm) and a complete lower of your choice for just a little more. That way you'll have a rifle that completely matches your taste instead of paying for parts in a complete gun that you will likely change anyway.

[Scoundrel]

Scoundrel, I'm pretty new to this too. From what I understand those M&Ps are good quality ARs for the price. However, that's got a carbine length gas block. The mid-length gas blocks are the rage right now for their softer recoil and good reliability. You might consider something like a Bravo Company (BCM) complete upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.htm) and a complete lower of your choice for just a little more. That way you'll have a rifle that completely matches your taste instead of paying for parts in a complete gun that you will likely change anyway.

Thanks for the advice. But, I don't know anywhere near enough about AR-15s to build my own. I mean, I could buy the pieces and assemble them or get someone to do it, but I'd be concerned that it would have some flaw or quirk caused by my fumbling about. I'm really I'm not that much of a tinkerer, so that would make me unhappy. I think I'd rather buy a complete assembled rifle (even with the extra 11% tax hit) that I know will work properly (or if it does not, it won't be my fault and I can sent it in for free repairs), at least for my first AR.

Maybe down the road I'll build a custom one, but I doubt it. I'm the kind of guy who buys an object that already has the integral features and whiz-bangs I want, and then maybe adds a few easily installed bits, but leaves it mostly stock otherwise. For example, I bought an ATV and added skid plates, grip warmers and a GPS mount, but did not bore the cylinders, install a turbo kit, or put a specially weighted clutch in it. By the same token, I bought a Ruger Mk III and put the trigger / free-drop mag kit in it because that was pretty easy and straightforward.

Maybe after a few years of ownership and fiddling with an AR I will be ready to mix and match. Oh, and I know there would be plenty of people willing to help me mix and match, but...

What I'm looking for now is someone, ANYONE, who has the M&P 15 Sport model in stock. A few places (even a couple of local ones) claim to have it in stock on their websites, but I suspect that when I call them tomorrow to actually place an order, I'll find out otherwise.

[joshh]

Looks like we have a little AR-15 club starting here at Kahr talk!

Mine should be here next week. It is my first rifle, so I am learning as well.

I ordered some Federal XM193 from here (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-xm193f-brown-box-5-56mm-55gr-fmj.html) to break it in. I am wondering if I could get Wolf ammo for it. I've always stayed away from Wolf for handgun ammo, but maybe it will work for rifle. It's as cheap as 9mm here (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AW223PFMJ55). I saw this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960) on youtube and he seems says Wolf is fine but you may sacrifice accuracy.

i broke in my spikes ar with a box of federals then switched to wolfs from aim and haven't looked back. my club has a plate set up at 265yds and i can drill it consistently with iron sights and the wolfs. the only other round i have noticed holds tighter groups is the pmc but i haven't tried a bunch of different rounds yet. i am waiting to get a nice optic before i worry about that..
for plinking away at the range the wolf should be fine but i do hear some rifles have issues with them. good to go w/ my spikes tho!

[joshh]

Thanks for the advice. But, I don't know anywhere near enough about AR-15s to build my own. I mean, I could buy the pieces and assemble them or get someone to do it, but I'd be concerned that it would have some flaw or quirk caused by my fumbling about. I'm really I'm not that much of a tinkerer, so that would make me unhappy. I think I'd rather buy a complete assembled rifle (even with the extra 11% tax hit) that I know will work properly (or if it does not, it won't be my fault and I can sent it in for free repairs), at least for my first AR.

Maybe down the road I'll build a custom one, but I doubt it. I'm the kind of guy who buys an object that already has the integral features and whiz-bangs I want, and then maybe adds a few easily installed bits, but leaves it mostly stock otherwise. For example, I bought an ATV and added skid plates, grip warmers and a GPS mount, but did not bore the cylinders, install a turbo kit, or put a specially weighted clutch in it. By the same token, I bought a Ruger Mk III and put the trigger / free-drop mag kit in it because that was pretty easy and straightforward.

Maybe after a few years of ownership and fiddling with an AR I will be ready to mix and match. Oh, and I know there would be plenty of people willing to help me mix and match, but...

What I'm looking for now is someone, ANYONE, who has the M&P 15 Sport model in stock. A few places (even a couple of local ones) claim to have it in stock on their websites, but I suspect that when I call them tomorrow to actually place an order, I'll find out otherwise.

assembling a lower is easy and if you assembled a mkIII you can do an ar lower no problem. buying a complete upper set up the way you want is a good idea tho because the smith who puts it together will make sure its a combination that works. i ended up buying a complete spikes tactical miglength built to my needs (MA compliant) and wants. i cannot say enough about spikes quality. my buddy has the m&p and other than a god awful trigger its a nice rifle.

[Scoundrel]

Well, when I bought my last motorcycle, I didn't buy an engine/tranny set up the way I wanted and fit it up with the drive train and chassis myself. It's just not how I roll...

[Ressom]

Is there specific ammo I need to shoot at steel?

I have been reading and I looks like steel that is Brinell 550 can safely be shot at 100+ yards. It looks like the key is to keep the velocity below 3000 fps.

I am looking at the Wolf stuff and it looks like the 62 gr HP version from aimsurplus might meet that.

I ordered one of these targets from Brownells with a dealer discount in addition to 10% off (code DL4):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeHVv9dfNcM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeHVv9dfNcM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLxC_QgE8hA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLxC_QgE8hA)

[Bawanna]

Thanks for the advice. But, I don't know anywhere near enough about AR-15s to build my own. I mean, I could buy the pieces and assemble them or get someone to do it, but I'd be concerned that it would have some flaw or quirk caused by my fumbling about. I'm really I'm not that much of a tinkerer, so that would make me unhappy. I think I'd rather buy a complete assembled rifle (even with the extra 11% tax hit) that I know will work properly (or if it does not, it won't be my fault and I can sent it in for free repairs), at least for my first AR.

Maybe down the road I'll build a custom one, but I doubt it. I'm the kind of guy who buys an object that already has the integral features and whiz-bangs I want, and then maybe adds a few easily installed bits, but leaves it mostly stock otherwise. For example, I bought an ATV and added skid plates, grip warmers and a GPS mount, but did not bore the cylinders, install a turbo kit, or put a specially weighted clutch in it. By the same token, I bought a Ruger Mk III and put the trigger / free-drop mag kit in it because that was pretty easy and straightforward.

Maybe after a few years of ownership and fiddling with an AR I will be ready to mix and match. Oh, and I know there would be plenty of people willing to help me mix and match, but...

What I'm looking for now is someone, ANYONE, who has the M&P 15 Sport model in stock. A few places (even a couple of local ones) claim to have it in stock on their websites, but I suspect that when I call them tomorrow to actually place an order, I'll find out otherwise.

Have you tried Kesselrings? I've ordered 3 M&P's for the guys here, not the sport version but they always had them on hand. Worth a call. 360-724-5841

[Scoundrel]

Have you tried Kesselrings? I've ordered 3 M&P's for the guys here, not the sport version but they always had them on hand. Worth a call. 360-724-5841

Just called and left a VM. Thanks!

[LaP]

I've used Federal XM193 and Remington .223 ammo in my Smith & Wesson M&P15. This rifle is good to shoot both ammo specs.(CAUTION: some rifles only work with .223 ammo. Check your barrel or reciever for markings)

The FedXM193 is good for everyday shooting, plinking and even sel-defense. It's what the military uses, so, I'm fine with it.

[Scoundrel]

Bawanna: I did not hear back from Kesselrings today. I guess the person whose voice mail I left a note on was out. But, I found that Cabela's in Lacey had it in stock. Road trip!

I won't bother with a picture - you've seen one stock AR, you've seen them all. Maybe I'll upload a pic later when I have replaced some bits. Anyway, I got the S&W M&P 15 Sport model for $760.89 out the door.

While I was there I did the math on some ammo. I guess I just missed a big ammo sale. They had a crapload of various brands of .223, and only a couple of boxes of 5.56. Their price on the Federal American Eagle 5.56 was about $0.44/round, and I did not buy any. In hindsight I should have bought one box so I could feel/look at the difference. But I can probably pick up a box on the way to the range.

They had a wide selection of .223. They had some steel cased Russian stuff called "Herter's" which seems to be a "store brand" kind of thing, for $0.30/round. They had some UMC Remington for about $0.35/round, which, after tax, works out to about $0.38/round. I bought two 200-packs of that to start with.

Later I'll be grabbing some bulk stuff from Ammoman.com, I think. Some of the Federal 50 gr hollowpoint .223, and some of the Federal 62 gr Penetrator green tip 5.56 SS109.

[Bawanna]

Well scratch that off the list. Almost as far to Burlington as it is to Lacey.

I sometimes have a hard time getting anyone at Kesselrings cause I have to rely on email being deaf but the dept buys there and they usually get back to me eventually.

They got most everything usually.

Try em again when the next want strikes.

[Scoundrel]

Actually, Burlington is 45 miles for me, and Lacey is 85. Plus, going to Lacey takes me through several bad traffic zones, whereas all of the trip to Burlington and back is wide open road and not a lot of traffic, usually.

But, we do what we must because we can.

[JLeephoto]

I'm the kind of guy who buys an object that already has the integral features and whiz-bangs I want, and then maybe adds a few easily installed bits, but leaves it mostly stock otherwise.

Ha! We'll see, but congrats on a fine first AR! I said the same thing. In fact, I just wanted to make sure I had one in the safe in case the current administration decided to ban evil looking guns again. And maybe I could have gotten by with that if I'd hadn't decided to go put some practice in and started shooting everyone else's with muzzle brakes and light rails, Aimpoints, Geissle triggers, etc. Then it was game on. The good news is that if you do much accessorizing, you'll end up with half the parts for your next build. Until then, have fun.

[Bawanna]

I refer to them as Mr. Potato Head rifles. Sort of Barbies for guys. Easy to mix and match accessories.

[Scoundrel]

Ha! We'll see, but congrats on a fine first AR! I said the same thing. In fact, I just wanted to make sure I had one in the safe in case the current administration decided to ban evil looking guns again. And maybe I could have gotten by with that if I'd hadn't decided to go put some practice in and started shooting everyone else's with muzzle brakes and light rails, Aimpoints, Geissle triggers, etc. Then it was game on. The good news is that if you do much accessorizing, you'll end up with half the parts for your next build. Until then, have fun.

Thanks for the congrats!

Heh. Never say never, but my record for this sort of thing (with cars, motorcycles, ATVs, and previous pistols/rifles) is "accessories and peripherals, OK, but no messing with primary components".


So here's a topic of discussion for the eggheads out there:

The M&P 15 "Sport" model has a "gain twist" of 1:8. That means it starts out slower, and then gets faster to 1:8 at the end.

So, is that a good thing? Better than 1:9? Not as good as a straight 1:8? Better with some ammo types than others? Other pros and cons?

I am sure S&W wouldn't have done it if it wasn't a good thing, but I am curious to hear opinions about it.

[LaP]

The M&P 15 "Sport" model has a "gain twist" of 1:8. That means it starts out slower, and then gets faster to 1:8 at the end.


That's a new one. It sounds good, but I'm not sure WHY.

Where's all the physics majors on this board?:boink:

[Scoundrel]

That's a new one. It sounds good, but I'm not sure WHY.

LOL. Exactly what I thought. I can come up with a rationalization for it right away on my own, but I'd be full of ****...




Where's all the physics majors on this board?:boink:

CJB ought to have some nice long words to say on this subject.

[LaP]

[QUOTE=Scoundrel;129463]LOL. Exactly what I thought. I can come up with a rationalization for it right away on my own, but I'd be full of ****...




QUOTE]

Being full of it never slowed me down in the past.
I'll take a guess and say that it gives the bullet some "rest time". After the initial explosion, the gases need to recoup so it can push the bullet faster.
That's my explanation. I'll be waiting for my Nobel Prize to arrive by FedEx tomorrow morning.:D

[Scoundrel]

I was figuring that the bullet needs time to overcome inertia and begin the spin. If they start it too aggressively, it resists spinning and gouges the bullet instead of starting it spinning. By starting it more gradually, it gives the bullet a little time to get used to the idea.

[LaP]

I was figuring that the bullet needs time to overcome inertia and begin the spin. If they start it too aggressively, it resists spinning and gouges the bullet instead of starting it spinning. By starting it more gradually, it gives the bullet a little time to get used to the idea.

So THAT'S what they mean by "Smart Bullet". If it doesn't like the target, does it have the right to refuse going downrange?

Oh, the possiblities are endless with the direction we could take this thread.:p

[yote]

I stocked up on Black Hills 68 gr HP match. Made in the USA (brass case, boxer primed). Comes in a 50 round box. Reasonably priced. Accurate and reliable.

Was selling for around $20/box several years ago (before the recent ammo price increases).