Mas Ayoob On Micro 9mm and +P+

[Barth]

GT GATE Self-Defense Forum:
Question:
Ultra Compact Pistol
Mas,
In terms of the new breed of compact 9mm offerings,
which of the following would you be comfortable with in terms of
reliability and the ability to digest +P or +P+ if necessary?

Kahr
Sig P290
Ruger LC9
Diamondback 9

Weight and concealabilty are a factor, but so is ammunition versitility.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Answer:
I haven't shot the Diamondback yet,
and haven't put enough hot loads through the LC9 and the P290 to get a handle on their longevity with them.
The Kahr has been around the longest
and the only one I've had an opportunity to follow with long term +P/+P+ shooting.
Since they've stood up well, Kahr would be my personal choice for that reason.

Best,
Mas

[JimC]

FWIW, my simple and unscientific chronograph testing shows me that the use of the Win. Ranger 127 gr. +P+ ammo actually does not offer much advantage over the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P SB load.

There is a slight increase in recoil and muzzle blast with the 127 gr. +P+ load in the PM9 and I'm sure that equates to added wear on the PM9 over time if one were to use a steady diet of that round.

Chrono Testing (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9212)

[muggsy]

FWIW, my simple and unscientific chronograph testing shows me that the use of the Win. Ranger 127 gr. +P+ ammo actually does not offer much advantage over the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P SB load.

There is a slight increase in recoil and muzzle blast with the 127 gr. +P+ load in the PM9 and I'm sure that equates to added wear on the PM9 over time if one were to use a steady diet of that round.

Chrono Testing (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9212)

You may get an argument on that one Jim, but not from me. I'm not a fan of +P+ loads.

[Bill K]

Reads like a very straightforward answer from Mas based on what he knows.

I'm happy with my nines for carry but seems to me ifin I started thinking +P+ I'd quickly start considering .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .4 5ACP, etc. in place of 9mm.

[les strat]

I agree. I am happy with 9mm micro pistols with +p for deep concealed carry, but there are other rounds I would step up to if I needed more than just +p. .40 is not one of them. If I am going up, .45acp is what I prefer as there as the ballistics between .40 and 9mm +p are about the same.

[FLBri]

Reads like a very straightforward answer from Mas based on what he knows.

I'm happy with my nines for carry but seems to me ifin I started thinking +P+ I'd quickly start considering .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .4 5ACP, etc. in place of 9mm.

+1 on that. .40S&W is almost the same size weapon ...

[Longitude Zero]

Reads like a very straightforward answer from Mas based on what he knows.

The flip side to this is also be aware of what Mas is ignorant of. He is pretty smart but NOT as smart as too many folks believe.

I too would not use the +P+ but stick with +P.

[Bill K]

The flip side to this is also be aware of what Mas is ignorant of. He is pretty smart but NOT as smart as too many folks believe.

I too would not use the +P+ but stick with +P.

Just to be clear I meant just with respect to how he answered the question at hand - as presented by the OP. I've heard and read about the man and I think I even have a book that was written by him but don't know enough to one way or another consider him a firearms/SD/HD/whatever guru.

[aray]

There's no shame in admitting what you don't know, as Mas did. Indeed that is the answer I would expect from him, given what he has personal knowledge of, rather than speculating as sometimes many others do. No one knows everything. Remember that greatest of all gun philosophers Dirty Harry: "A man's got to know his limitations!"

[TheTman]

I don't think they load +P+ much higher than +P for fear of blowing up guns and lawsuits.

[LaP]

I'm happy with +P. If that don't do it, I'm just gonna call time out, pack up and go home.

[Barth]

FWIW, my simple and unscientific chronograph testing shows me that the use of the Win. Ranger 127 gr. +P+ ammo actually does not offer much advantage over the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P SB load.


Win 127+p+
G26 avg. 1258fps = 446 fpe

Gold Dot 125+p
G26 avg 1201fps = 368 fpe

[JimC]

Interesting numbers for the Speer round out of that G26 to be sure.

I trust you meant 124 gr. +p instead of 125 gr. +P and it was the SB GDHP loading?

Speer lists the 124 gr. +P GDHP SB load as 1150 fps out of a 3.5" test bbl.

The G26 has a 3.46" bbl. Your results are 51 fps higher than Speer got with a slightly longer bbl. In fact, Speer lists their standard 124 gr. +P GDHP loading as 1220 fps out of a 4" test bbl.

My PM9 has a 3.10" bbl. and I recorded 1116.6 fps/6 rds. and 1121.2 fps/6 rds which is very close to the published Speer 1150 fps data.

I don't have a G26 to test the Win. 127 gr. +P+ loading.

[Barth]

Glock 26 Velocities

All information is based on 10-shot averages from the 3.46" factory Glock barrel in a Glock 26. Average velocities, extreme spreads, and standard deviations are in ft/sec. An asterisk by the load indicates that it is no longer made. Some Glock 26 shooters may still have some of this ammunition so the data is included.

Ammunition Average Velocity Extreme Spread Std. Deviation

Aguila 65-gr IQ HP 1517 64 23

Glaser Silver Pre-Frag +P 1514 N/A N/A

Winchester USA 115-gr FMJ 1097 87 40

PMP 115-gr FMJ 1046 38 15

Fiocchi 115-gr FMJ 1180 57 21

Federal 115-gr JHP (9BP) 1111 34 13

Triton 115-gr Hi Vel JHP +P* 1280 N/A N/A

Hornady 124-gr XTP CQ Tap 1100 38 16

Federal 124-gr Nyclad HP* 1063 N/A N/A

Triton 125-gr Hi Vel JHP +P* 1245 N/A N/A
Corbon 124-gr XTP +P* 1229 N/A N/A
Corbon 125-gr JHP +P 1188 43 17

Winchester 127-gr JHP +P+
RA9TA 1246 33 13

[DKD]

Gentlemen,

Before we all get our collective BVD's in a wad ....be advised that data with respect to not only barrel length, but the individual fire arm even from the same manufacturer make and model will vary some fromgun to gun.

[Barth]

Gentlemen,

Before we all get our collective BVD's in a wad ....be advised that data with respect to not only barrel length, but the individual fire arm even from the same manufacturer make and model will vary some fromgun to gun.

There is without at doubt variances in guns and ammo lots.
Not to mention temperature and humidity at the time of testing that affect velocity readings.
Along with calibration of equipment and likely something else I'm leaving out - LOL!

My real point is that the Winchester +P+ 127 9mm ammo
actually has a measurable advantage over the Speer +P 124 9mm round.
It isn't simply more flash and recoil.

Whether using overpressure ammunition beyond SAAMI rating is wise?
Or why not use 40/357 if you want that much pressure?
Is a separate issue.

[Bill K]

Win 127+p+
G26 avg. 1258fps = 446 fpe

Gold Dot 125+p
G26 avg 1201fps = 368 fpe

Wow, I know it is simple math but I would never have guessed that much energy difference given the weight and fps stats. To me that is an impressive energy difference.

[jocko]

more than likely BG never would know the difference either. I would thinki in a PM9 kahr that a +jP+ rounds might be alittle unmaneagable to. Proably a reason kahr doesn't recommend +P+ to.

but heh each to his own, if u want total firepower, buy a 40 cal and peddle the pus-y 9's..

[Barth]

more than likely BG never would know the difference either. I would thinki in a PM9 kahr that a +jP+ rounds might be alittle unmaneagable to. Proably a reason kahr doesn't recommend +P+ to.

but heh each to his own, if u want total firepower, buy a 40 cal and peddle the pus-y 9's..

My interest involves my Glock G27/40.
It's like my project gun as well as part of my carry set.
Having four barrels, in three calibers, I've decided to have a personal shoot out.
And see if this particular gun, in my hands, favors a specific caliber/round.

My first test of the Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel, with
Speer 124 +P GDHP, demonstrated a considerable accuracy and recoil
improvement over the OEM 40 barrel.

I bought some Winchester 127 +P+ rounds to try out.
Have vacillated as to whether it's wise to run +P+.
Finally, it appears the Glocks can handle it, so I'll give it a try.

Although this test is totally unfair on several levels;
the shoot out will pit the G27 with a Storm Lake 40-9 conversion barrel using Speer 124 +P 9mm and Winchester 127 +P+ 9mm
against a Storm Lake 357 4.16" extended, dual ported, barrel using
Speer 125 GDHP LE (4" 1375 fps) and Winchester 125 Ranger T-Series (4" 1350 fps) ammo.

Free hand accuracy and controlled double tap drills will be performed.
My 357 barrel had to be special ordered due to the Isonite QPQ on stainless finish. It's scheduled to ship 2/3/2012.

The Winchester +P+ 9mm runs like 127gr/~1250 fps from my G27
and seems like it might be a tactical 357 light.
I think 357 Sigs run 125 gr/~1300 fps from a G27.

This should be fun!

[Longitude Zero]

Find what your guns likes and you like. It matters not one iota if it is +P, +P+, or regular pressure. If it does not hit the targe it can be +P++++ and it is a worthless round.

Only HITS count!!!