New S&W M&P 15 - Manufacturing Defects!

[Scoundrel]

I am not a happy camper. I just got back from Cabela's with my shiny new M&P 15, and after ordering magazines and ammo, posting stuff about it in this forum, reading the manual, etc. I finally got around to taking it apart for cleaning.

The first thing I found is that the rear take-down pin was VERY stuff. I hurt my thumb trying to push on it before I finally pushed it out with a screwdriver. Having it apart, I inspected it to try and figure out why it was stiff (the front one was OK), and I found that the hole that the pin goes through shows evidence of having had the pin jammed into it when it was not properly lined up. See first attached picture. Now, this is annoying, but I can cope with it, I guess. I can sand it smooth, and polish the hole, sand the pin a bit, etc to make it not stiff anymore. But it's annoying.

Now here's the REALLY crappy bit: There is a big nasty crack in the hammer!!
I mean, wow! If I had not taken this thing down for cleaning and found that, what would have happened at the range? I don't want to think about it!

I'll be contacting S&W tomorrow, for sure. I'll tell them about both problems, get them to send me a new hammer expedited shipping, with instructions for replacement, and ask for a free magazine or something.

Then I'll go over to the local gun shop and see if I can pick up a hammer. looks easy enough to replace - figure out whether it's a tapered pin, drive it out, swap hammers, line up the spring, smack the pin back in, and 10 minutes later it's good to go.

But I'm pissed!

[LaP]

Being Pissed is putting it mildly. Good thing you did a thorough inspection first. Someone must have been "practicing" with that rifle in the back of the storeroom.

[TucsonMTB]

I am not a happy camper. I just got back from Cabela's with my shiny new M&P 15 . . .

Now here's the REALLY crappy bit: There is a big nasty crack in the hammer!! . . .
Hey Scoundrel!

I thought the reason people paid the big bucks at Cabela's was their service. I have exchanged things like scopes in the past with no questions asked. Shouldn't they jump at a chance to get your rifle up to snuff? :001_huh:

Best of luck, sir.

[Scoundrel]

Hey Scoundrel!

I thought the reason people paid the big bucks at Cabela's was their service. I have exchanged things like scopes in the past with no questions asked. Shouldn't they jump at a chance to get your rifle up to snuff? :001_huh:

Best of luck, sir.

I briefly considered taking it back, but:
1. It's in the lower receiver, which means they'd have to mess with serial numbers and stuff, or:
2. We'd have to whack the pin out and replace the hammer, which they might not want to do in the store, and:
3. Cabela's is 85 miles away. That's several hours of driving and $25 in gas. I'm looking forward to the new Cabela's store going in near me, but it's not open yet.

Hammers are listed at about $20 online. Probably won't be much more than that at a local store, if I can find one. Then I'll have a spare when S&W sends me another one, so something to show for my $20-ish.

[TucsonMTB]

I feel your pain on the time and money spent traveling to Cabela's. Our nearest is over a hundred miles away in Phoenix.

Still, faced with the same issue I would at least call them to see what they could do for me. The serial number changes are their problem to deal with. If they want to, they can probably offer merchandise credit to offset your travel costs.

Just a thought. I'm big on doing it myself too, but sometimes it is foolish. My wife can explain. :o

[Scoundrel]

It is worth a phone call. I'll call them right before I call S&W tomorrow.

Maybe they'll mail me a gift card that I can use when the store about 15 miles away opens up, as a "consolation prize" for getting a defective one.

The Olive Garden restaurant once sent me a $25 gift card when I developed sudden and violent digestive system issues shortly after eating there, even though they did not have any other reports that day.

[TriggerMan]

I bought my M&P 15 2.23 with an Eotech at Gander Mountain. The sight stopped working after a week. Gander Mtn. would not swap sights. All warranty is between you and the manufacturer. Same with guns, unless you buy their waranty.

Rather than contact Eotech, I went to S&W who said they'd swap it for a new one. They didn't have to since the warranty spells out an exclusion for sights and scopes. I mailed the sight at my expense and it took forever to get it replaced, almost two months. The drive to Eotech was 55 minutes. Next time.

[Scoundrel]

TucsonMTB - Thanks for prodding me to call Cabela's.

At first, the guy at the gun counter (on the phone) gave the the stiff arm ("Our policy is to send the gun back to the manufacturer for you, if you bring it in, but we don't swap them out.") - but then I pushed back a little, telling him I'd heard so much about the great customer service at Cabela's that I drove 85 miles to buy this gun from them, even though I've only been inside a Cabela's once before, ever, and that I'm not really feeling the great customer service, here.

So he put me on hold to talk to the manager, and the manager authorized an exception to the policy, since it's not a "sale gun" and since they had more than one and all. I asked them to put another one on hold, and I drove down there again.

When I got there, they passed it around to everyone, because everyone wanted to ogle the big crack that you could see daylight through. But then I mentioned wanting a replacement, and they had not communicated that throughout the team, so some phone calls had to be made to find the manager that authorized it, etc. But, after a reasonable period of time, they dragged another one out of the back and we did all of the paperwork again.

They let me completely field strip the new one, including removing the firing pin and extractor. Then I reassembled it, put a couple of snap caps in the magazine, dry fired and cycled the action a couple of times, and then disassembled it to inspect it again.
Satisfied, we finished the paperwork.

Almost as an afterthought, I asked them to throw in a set of snap caps for my trouble ($10). They called up a manager again, got authorization, and did it. I didn't feel that it was really necessary to ask for more than that. I mean, it was a manufacturing defect that I couldn't expect Cabela's to have caught, and they did swap it out for me, which is more than I could reasonably expect from a local small gun shop. I'm happy enough with the outcome.

I am still waiting for the e-mail reply from Smith & Wesson though. When it comes, I'll tell them that I drove another 170 miles and Cabela's was nice enough to swap it out for me, and ask them to send me a couple of magazines for my trouble anyway. <shrug> You don't get what you don't ask for, and it _WAS_ S&W's fault, after all.

[TucsonMTB]

TucsonMTB - Thanks for prodding me to call Cabela's.
My pleasure!

However, give credit where credit is due. You really handled the whole thing exceptionally well. Congratulations on the excellent outcome! :D

[Scoundrel]

handled the whole thing exceptionally well

You didn't see/hear me cussing up a storm last night. :)

[CJB]

The gouge is just a tooling mark, impression from whatever either made the hole, or from a relief spot in the un-refined half before it was final machined, no biggie.

The hammer? WTF!!!!! I've seen a LOT of screwy stuff in guns... NEVER seen that. Its in a non stressed place too. Engineers cap on here for a second... I'd say that part had internal stresses from something going amiss in its casting process. Some inclusion or non-homogenous metallurgy... causing a stress within the part, some dry firing and voila... a huge crack where one would never be thought to occur. Usually they crack at the base of the "stalk" or the engagement lump cracks. That is too weird. Hammer is VERY easy to change.

[Scoundrel]

The gouge is just a tooling mark, impression from whatever either made the hole, or from a relief spot in the un-refined half before it was final machined, no biggie.

The hammer? WTF!!!!! I've seen a LOT of screwy stuff in guns... NEVER seen that. Its in a non stressed place too. Engineers cap on here for a second... I'd say that part had internal stresses from something going amiss in its casting process. Some inclusion or non-homogenous metallurgy... causing a stress within the part, some dry firing and voila... a huge crack where one would never be thought to occur. Usually they crack at the base of the "stalk" or the engagement lump cracks. That is too weird. Hammer is VERY easy to change.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I was prepared to buff out the take-down pin hole myself and call it good.

I would have replaced the hammer myself, too (even dug out my punch set), if I could have found one. Nobody local wanted to sell me a hammer for $15-$25. They wanted to sell me a complete lower kit for $89.

[jlottmc]

The gouge is just a tooling mark, impression from whatever either made the hole, or from a relief spot in the un-refined half before it was final machined, no biggie.

The hammer? WTF!!!!! I've seen a LOT of screwy stuff in guns... NEVER seen that. Its in a non stressed place too. Engineers cap on here for a second... I'd say that part had internal stresses from something going amiss in its casting process. Some inclusion or non-homogenous metallurgy... causing a stress within the part, some dry firing and voila... a huge crack where one would never be thought to occur. Usually they crack at the base of the "stalk" or the engagement lump cracks. That is too weird. Hammer is VERY easy to change.


Yeah, that's what I figured. I was prepared to buff out the take-down pin hole myself and call it good.

I would have replaced the hammer myself, too (even dug out my punch set), if I could have found one. Nobody local wanted to sell me a hammer for $15-$25. They wanted to sell me a complete lower kit for $89.


CJB, correct on all counts there. S&W missed that one on the QC check. Easy fix.
Scoundrel, get your parts online, much easier, little slower but delivered to your door many times with free shipping. You could also use that time for some internal upgrades too, plus spare parts for the lower is never a bad idea.

[Scoundrel]

OK, back from the range.

1st Impressions: It is really too bad that it costs more than 10 times as much to shoot the M&P 15 as it does to shoot the M&P 15/22!

I told the folks at Norpoint range that I would like to run a brush through my barrel a few times between each magazine for a basic break-in, and asked if they had a place where I could do that. Turns out they were OK with me doing it right there on the firing line, so that was a bonus. I guess a lot of places won't allow mixing cleaning with live fire, but Norpoint is OK with it.

I couldn't shoot the 5.56 stuff I brought because their magnet stuck to it. It looks to me like a brass casing with copper jacketing on the bullet, but there's obviously some steel in there somewhere. It is American Eagle XM855 5.56 x 45mm 62 grain FMJ-BT Ball (green tip penetrators). So, I did not get to experience the recoil of the 5.56 vs the .223 this time out.

I decided to go for the iron sights first. This model (811036) has the flip-up Magpul rear sight. I noticed that it seemed to be off to the left somewhat, so I dialed it to center.

I loaded it up with .223 Remington 55 grain FMJ and made it ready. When I brought it to my shoulder, I will admit that I was a little afraid of it. I have fired a .410 shotgun, but the only other "high powered rifle" I have fired is my friend's AK-47, and I didn't like the recoil on the AK, though I was told it was fairly light.

Well, I needn't have been afraid of it, because the recoil was not bad at all. I looked up custom stocks and butt pads and stuff online and, given the recoil of the .223 Remington, I'm thinking it's crazy talk to spend $225 on a special whiz-bang stock, at least for casual shooting. I did order a $10 slip-on butt pad to soften up the sharp edges and make it a teeny bit more comfortable when lining up the shot.

I also found that the collapsible stock is great. When I am using iron sights, I like to extend the stock to make the hole in the rear sight smaller. The scope I am using has a pretty short eye relief, though, so I collapsed the stock for those shots. I can shoot it comfortably either way, so it's really about where I want my eye to be in relation to the optics. I have another scope with a longer eye relief, but it is a larger scope with a more square profile, so it doesn't fit in with the "combat styling".

I fired 30 rounds slowly and carefully, with the first ten using the iron sights, another ten or so dialing in the scope, and the rest of the magazine figuring out whether I needed to tweak the scope some more. I had just decided that the scope needed an adjustment to the right when the bolt locked open on the empty magazine.

After a quick barrel cleaning and reassembly, I spent most of my remaining ammo doing short, quick groups of 3 shots with the scope. I would load 3 rounds into the magazine, aim the first shot, and then follow it with two more as quickly as I could bring the reticle back to the point of aim and keep it more or less steady. I averaged 1/2 second between shots and did a pretty good group, I think.

For the last 5 rounds, I was alone in the bay, and I fired those as quickly as I could pull the trigger and keep the gun pointed in more or less the right direction. I think the majority of them hit the paper, but I am not sure.

I felt that the AR was easy to handle, and despite some online claims that the M&P trigger is "god-awful", I did not mind it. I doubt I'll be doing a trigger job on it. I did not have a single failure to fire, eject, load, or come to full battery during the first 80 rounds today.

To help me wind down, I reeled the target back in to 20 feet and unloaded 80 rounds of .22LR with my Ruger MK III, shooting rapid controlled groups of 10 rounds each.

I dragged the AR back home, disassembled it for cleaning, and here I found a welcome surprise: It was not very dirty at all! I brushed a bit of grit off of the front of the extractor and bolt face, wiped the dirty CLP off of the bolt and inside of the upper receiver, ran a brush and a couple of patches through the barrel, and it was all cleaned up in a jiffy. The M&P 15/22, by comparison, is a dirty little ammo-whore - but then it is a .22LR after all.

I am quite happy to report that all is well with the rifle, and that the hammer is still in one piece, and 100% solid. I am a happy camper.

Pictures below! Sorry about the poor quality, only had my cell phone camera with me.

[Husky44]

Glad it worked out well for you exchanging it, and even better at the range.

Having read your range report, may I offer a few hints? I carried an M16 for 23 years, and was (and still am) a better than average shooter with it.

First, I wish I'd known about your concern with recoil, as it's not an issue. Which leads to point #2: a tip the military teaches about getting a consistent cheek-to-stock weld and sight alignment (with irons) is to place the tip of your nose on the charging handle. Nobody believes me when I tell them to do that; I didn't believe the drill sergeant either. But, it works, and the recoil is not even noticeable.

The only other thing to add is that you needn't worry about cleaning it while on the range. Light lube recommended (you can do a dry bolt when firing--we do it in the Arctic because the lube can cause cycling problems in extreme cold--it just sounds painful). You can shoot that thing all day long without ever running a rod through it. I ALWAYS clean when I get home, but never worry about it on the range. You didn't mention cleaning the locking lugs--you will get carbon buildup in there--that's where I always found it when I was inspecting "clean" weapons. :D

Also, you didn't mention removing the bolt from the carrier, but in my experience the first place you'll experience carbon fouling messing with the cycling is buildup inside the bolt carrier. also, on the neck of the bolt, both in front of and behind the gas rings.

That said, the horror stories most people repeat about the AR not functioning well dirty are throwbacks to the very first M16s (not M16A, or M16A1) in the early Vietnam days. Those problems were designed out years ago, but the stories never died. The AR will never work dirty like an AK will (you can bury one of those POSs in a mud pit, dig it out, clear the barrel, chamber a round and fire all day long, but you won't hit much, because the reason they work so well dirty is because they have so much slop in them--speaking of Soviet and Chinese stuff, I'm sure the new stuff on the market may be made better).

You have a great weapon there. Have a blast!

[Scoundrel]

The on-the-range "cleaning" I did was just the barrel. I have read some crazy stuff about incredibly complicated barrel break-in, and I have read other stuff where people say "just go shoot the hell out of it, and then clean it". I decided to do something in between. Shoot 30, brush out the barrel, shoot another 30, etc. I've done that three times, and I'm now done with scrubbing out the barrel while on the firing line. That was just a break-in thing. Now it will be like my other guns. Shoot the hell out of it on the range, then take it home and clean it.

I did not remove the bolt from the carrier this time around. I did that before I ever fired it, but did not do it this time. Now that you mention it, though, I will.

Regarding the locking lugs, I don't have a chamber brush yet. I ordered three of them earlier today, but I don't have them yet. It's not that gunky in there yet. But this does bring up a good point: Once I scrub that with the brass chamber brush, how am I going to get the gunkus OUT? Do I spray it out? those teeth are going to be murder on any sort of sponge or wad of paper towel I try to stick in there.

[Scoundrel]

Finally got a reply from S&W. It says:

"We apologize that you are experiencing a problem with your Smith & Wesson firearm.

A review of the firearm by a Smith & Wesson gunsmith will be required.

You may obtain a prepaid / pre-insured Fedex return shipping label directly by clicking the link below.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_761651_-1_757814_757812_image

Please allow 1 to 3 business days for the label with instructions to arrive to you via email."



So, it took two days for them to say "Go fill out the web form, wait 1-3 more days, and then ship it to us." Great. Awesome customer service.

Thank you again, Cabela's!

[TriggerMan]

Finally got a reply from S&W. It says:

"We apologize that you are experiencing a problem with your Smith & Wesson firearm.

A review of the firearm by a Smith & Wesson gunsmith will be required.

You may obtain a prepaid / pre-insured Fedex return shipping label directly by clicking the link below.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_761651_-1_757814_757812_image

Please allow 1 to 3 business days for the label with instructions to arrive to you via email."



So, it took two days for them to say "Go fill out the web form, wait 1-3 more days, and then ship it to us." Great. Awesome customer service.

Thank you again, Cabela's!I phoned during the early afternoon, had no trouble getting thru, told to expect an email in 1-2 days. Got it in 12 hours, never sent it as my local smith fixed my mistake for free.

[Husky44]

Regarding the locking lugs, I don't have a chamber brush yet. I ordered three of them earlier today, but I don't have them yet. It's not that gunky in there yet. But this does bring up a good point: Once I scrub that with the brass chamber brush, how am I going to get the gunkus OUT? Do I spray it out? those teeth are going to be murder on any sort of sponge or wad of paper towel I try to stick in there.

Several different, viable techniques:
1) Q-tips. Lots of em.
2) Toothbrush
3) My personal favorite: stick the tip of your pinky in a rag, then stick pinky in the hole, and work it around. Without the rag I'd find the carbon that other soldiers couldn't reach. But you gotta have a finger shaped about like mine. Sorry I don't have any to spare.:p

Q-tips are about your best bet. Hit it with the chamber brush, rotate it around, then soak it good again with Break-free, or your solvent of choice, then start digging with Q-tips.