Good guy CCW turns to cluster for all

[getsome]

This story was in yesterdays Atlanta paper and I hope I'm not called to be on this jury but is a lesson for all that CCW and what a great responsibility it is to do so...

Good guy CCW for the story we will call Tire Man has no criminal history and has his CCW permit and owns a local tire shop has advertised on Craigs list a set of 4 tires and 26" custom rims and gets a call from someone wanting to look at them...

Two guys show up at the shop we will call Bad Guy 1 and Bad Guy 2 or BG1 and BG2 and want to buy the rims for $2000.00 and give the cash to Tire Man but only if he will deliver them since they had a small Toyota so Tire Man agrees to follow them in his pickup...

Before leaving the shop Tire Man tucks his Glock 27 .357 Sig in his jacket pocket and follows the Toyota down the freeway...Before getting to their exit the Toyota suddenly vears off to exit before Tire Man can follow so he stops at the next exit in a parking lot and calls BG1 who said they needed gas and would meet him in a minute...

What BG1 really did was to pick up BG3 telling him about the 2 grand and the rims and the plan was to ambush and rob Tire Man of both cash and the rims...BG1 drives to the next exit and lets BG3 out before meeting Tire Man and while they were talking BG3 sneaks up to the Tire Mans truck and sticks a pistol in the window but before BG3 could shoot Tire Man slams open the door, pulls the Glock and shoots BG3 in the leg and takes off running across the street to a fast food store to get help...

Now here is where everything falls apart for everyone...An off duty Police officer is in his car at the business next door to the fast food place and hears the gun shot and sees Tire Man running across the street with a gun in his hand and starts to chase him...Tire Man runs up to the window and yells for the cashier to call 911 as he has shot a robber just as the Police Officer tackles him on the sidewalk and is yelling at Tire Man to drop the gun and trying to get his arm to handcuff him...

The Police officer pulls his duty pistol a S&W M&P .40 just as Tire Man turns around enough to shoot the cop point blank in the chest, his vest held but the round broke a rib...The Officer tried to return fire but hit the magazine release and ejected the magazine and since the APD M&P's have the optional so called magazine disconnect safety the gun wouldn't fire without the magazine and Tire Man was able to fire 2 more times over his shoulder at the cop. the second round was a through and through hit to his shoulder and the last shot glanced off the Officers cell phone in his shirt pocked and the vest stopped it...

In the parking lot a customer who was an Iraq vet and with a Police Officer son decided to help and drove his SUV onto the sidewalk enough to pin Tire Man and jumped out and picked up the Officers useless no magazine M&P and pulled the trigger when Tire Man turned to try and fire at him...The Iraq vet with his military firearms training found the magazine on the ground and got the M&P loaded and jacked a fresh round in the chamber and held the gun to Tire Mans head...By this time many officers arrived and got the situation under control and Tire Man in custody...

Now here is the hard part for the jury...Tire Man said he thought the officer was one of the robbers and never was able to see that it was a cop....He said he only heard him say stop or I will kill you and when the Officer tried to cuff him he saw lots of tattoos on the Officers arm making him think it was a gang banger BG and not a cop....

Well the good part is the Police Officer was wearing his vest and lived to fight another day and for Tire Man he lived due to the stupid S&W M&P magazine disconnect design (which by the way I have this exact same gun and after reading this I'm going to trade it for a pistol without this stupid feature which can get you killed when the SHTF)...For Tire Man his life is ruined and he will lose his business, CCW gun and stands to see 25 to life in prison for attempted murder of a Police Officer whether or not he was aware that he was shooting at one which is for the jury to decide....

This goes to show that even if we the good guys and leagally CCW sometimes the absolute terror of thinking you are about to die and the adrenaline dump causing tunnel vision could be what gets you killed....

BG1 took BG3 to the hospital and both were arrested and BG2 will take a plea deal to finger his friends for robery....

Moral of this story I suppose is, CCW to be safe but we must realize and be prepared for the awful consequences if everything that could go wrong does go wrong...

What do you folks think? Is Tire Man guilty or innocent?....

[Bill K]

If it as you describe it I'd have no problem letting Tire Man off the hook. The crooks should get the 25 to life for almost getting the police officer killed.

[muggsy]

If the officer failed to identify himself as a police officer his bad. Case dismissed.

[center_mass]

I think since the BG's were in the act of committing a felony, they would be the ones held responsible for the police officer getting shot....not sure about that, but i seem to recall something about that.

What a predicament!! I'll be interested to see how this turns out.

[RodeoX]

I would give tire man the benefit of the doubt. The fact that the BG's were caught corroborates his story. What other possible reason could he have for shooting the cop? Only tire man's scenario makes sense.
I can't fault the cop either. He arguably should have spent more time assessing the scene. But maybe he saw an opportunity to jump the guy and took it.
What a mess.

In any case the lesson should be for the bad guys. Because if you think shooting is an expensive hobby, wait till you see what you might have to pay for armed robbery.

[wyntrout]

I hope that tire man gets a good lawyer and some legal help. HE was the victim here and the off-duty cop is lucky to be alive. When a cop decides he's switching to on-duty, he needs to identify himself with a badge and verbally identify himself. We don't know that he did that, but the victim was running and fighting for his life after firing his weapon. I'm not sure he COULD hear well enough if the officer did say he was a cop. All the victim saw was another possible BG trying to take him down.

This isn't the first time and it won't be the last time things like this happen. Cops shoot other cops in situations like this all of the time... blue on blue. Undercover or off-duty cops may feel like they're cops, but they don't look like cops to everyone, and sometimes that's the idea... undercover or not looking like cops. Too often some cop is shooting before he knows what's happening. They seem spring loaded to shoot anyone with a gun that's not in uniform. They interject themselves in situations without any knowledge of what's going on and don't follow proper procedures and bad stuff happens.

At least the vet didn't kill the victim and really ruin a few more lives, including his own. Things could have gone a lot worse than they did.

I don't really know anything about the anti-gun sentiment of the Atlanta City government, but I recall hearing at sometimes it was like Little Chicago... I hope not. As I said, I don't know, but I hope they don't try to crucify the victim... the real one, the tire guy. Regardless of legal proceedings, his life is ruined in a lot of ways... certainly financially, but he shot a police officer while fleeing for his life... in error, but I'm sure that weighs heavily on his conscience.

I probably missed what Neal Boortz had to say about that... dangit.

Wynn:)

[getsome]

I need to clarify one point of this story...The off duty Police Office was still in full uniform but Tire Mans story was he never got a good look at whoever it was that tackled him and only saw the tattoos on the officers arm which made him think it was the robbers...

I never thought about the fact that after a gunshot in the cab of his pickup he probably was deaf and wouldn't have heard anything the Police Officer said anyway...The whole situation is sad and the fact that several people and innocent bystanders almost lost their lives all for a lousy set of rims makes it even more so....

I haven't heard what Boortz has said if anything about this but he's always glad when a BG goes down and he supports gun owners 2nd amendment rights and CCW a Glock himself...

[wyntrout]

Uniformed... that's different, but as you say, the victim was reacting and didn't get a good look at the cop... who knows what was going through his mind. Adrenalin rush... in full flight and fighting for his life... tunnel vision... all of that stuff going on.

You guys with safeties, magazine disconnects and carrying one magazine might learn a little, too. The victim was using a caliber that might have gone through the vest, too.

Wynn:)

[Barth]

Bad situation for sure.
Fighting for your life and under attack.
We weren't there to know all the details either.
I bothers me that the cop was in uniform though.
Even in dire straits you need to know your target before you pull the trigger.
The kicker is we are usually in a public place with the world as our backstop.

[JFootin]

Atlanta is getting to be dangerous place. I sold my CW9 and extra mags to a real estate agent who specialized in dealing with repos and stuff. Had to be in questionable neigborhoods, sometimes late in the day. I'm glad I got out of there.

[Longitude Zero]

Looks and sound righteous. HOWEVER Tireman screwed up from the first by follwing anybody anywhere. Rule number one is do not go to an area you do not control.

[Sap]

Moral to the this story...stay off Craigslist. No really, **** goes bad fast and hard. It's never pretty.

[ltxi]

Yep....to both

[LMT42]

Before leaving the shop Tire Man tucks his Glock 27 .357 Sig in his jacket pocket and follows the Toyota down the freeway...

This speaks volumes to me. He wasn't carrying, but something caused him to feel the need to arm himself. This is when he should have listened to his gut and backed out. An ounce of prevention....

[knkali]

Looks and sound righteous. HOWEVER Tireman screwed up from the first by follwing anybody anywhere. Rule number one is do not go to an area you do not control.

bingo #1

[knkali]

This speaks volumes to me. He wasn't carrying, but something caused him to feel the need to arm himself. This is when he should have listened to his gut and backed out. An ounce of prevention....

Bingo #2

[knkali]

When Tire man shot the guy in the leg. The gun fight was not over. There still was BG 1 and 2 there. Tire Guy needed to stay in that fight a little longer to make sure he handled his threats if needed, then called 911.

I just took a defensive pistol class. Shoot until threat is neutralized( either on ground dead or no longer fighting or runs away), check surroundings for other threats coming at you, check condition of gun, tac reload THEN call 911.

I know easier said than done esp with the adrenaline dump. I hope all works out for him AND and indirectly us. We are all in this together as CCW holders.

[Ikeo74]

The Tire Man, turned "wimp" and ran after he already had the upper hand by shooting the BG3. His mistake was truning and running. Had he held his ground, called "Stand your Ground" everything would have been OK and the ending would have been very different. Moral of this story, don't turn tail and run with your gun in your hand after you have eliminated the threat. People get afraid! :confused: The second mistake Time Man made was shooting the cop "over his shoulder" without looking to see his target. :der:

[JFootin]

Probably the biggest adrenalin dump in his entire life. A good lesson for all of us to remember w.t.s.h.t.f. The frontal lobes seem to go off line and the brain stem takes over with instinctual responses. That is why pros practice all the time, so that the right responses become habitual and instinctive.

[knkali]

The Tire Man, turned "wimp" and ran after he already had the upper hand by shooting the BG3. His mistake was truning and running. Had he held his ground, called "Stand your Ground" everything would have been OK and the ending would have been very different. Moral of this story, don't turn tail and run with your gun in your hand after you have eliminated the threat. People get afraid! :confused: The second mistake Time Man made was shooting the cop "over his shoulder" without looking to see his target. :der:

yep to the first part. The second part( shooting over his shoulder) was a perpetuation of his first mistake.

[knkali]

Probably the biggest adrenalin dump in his entire life. A good lesson for all of us to remember w.t.s.h.t.f. The frontal lobes seem to go off line and the brain stem takes over with instinctual responses. That is why pros practice all the time, so that the right responses become habitual and instinctive.

Bingo #3

[wyntrout]

Ah... 22-20 hindsight in the comfort of your armchair... so nice and easy to make decisions when you haven't just gotten the scare of your life and your drawers are dripping with maybe several kinds of dampness... wimp, indeed. He shoulda' stayed there and fought it out like a man.

This guy wasn't a trained combatant... and taking a gun handling class doesn't make you one, either... nor reading a book, pamphlet, or watching videos... or especially punching small groups of holes in defenseless paper targets at the range.

Give him a break. Many of you wouldn't have fared as well... getting away from three assailants.

Wynn:rolleyes:

[CJB]

Where's Massad Ayoob when you need him?

[hss.strat]

I call BULLCRAP.

The Glock 27 is a .40 s&w

"Before leaving the shop Tire Man tucks his Glock 27 .357 Sig in his jacket pocket..."

[Ikeo74]

I call BULLCRAP.

The Glock 27 is a .40 s&w
Could be but, the Glock was Tire Mans weapon. The 40 S&W was the cop's gun.

[wyntrout]

Drop-in barrel for .357 Sig??

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/GNS135-1.html

Wynn:)

[Cokeman]

Too many things could be happening during the situation for any of you to say what should have happened and consider yourself right. And then others agree like they're right too. :001_huh:

[knkali]

Ah... 22-20 hindsight in the comfort of your armchair... so nice and easy to make decisions when you haven't just gotten the scare of your life and your drawers are dripping with maybe several kinds of dampness... wimp, indeed. He shoulda' stayed there and fought it out like a man.

This guy wasn't a trained combatant... and taking a gun handling class doesn't make you one, either... nor reading a book, pamphlet, or watching videos... or especially punching small groups of holes in defenseless paper targets at the range.

Give him a break. Many of you wouldn't have fared as well... getting away from three assailants.

Wynn:rolleyes:

agreed 10000%. Thats why I said in my post "easier said than done". However, we all can learn from this and that is the need to train often. You are right, I would soil myself. Taking classes and exchanging thoughts and practice is all we can do Wynn. Even professionals, who carry for a living, can do is train and practice and hope that training takes over when needed. The fact is he left unknowing if the BGs were still a threat or not and turns out he shot a cop because he did not know. I certainly was not trying to pile on, but by not addressing the fact that multiple BGs are probably the norm in SD situations and how you should train to handle this would be a harmful to all that carry to protect themselves.

One thing for sure is this man's life will be hell now until he is hopefully found innocent of his charges. I think he will get some sort of charge though. The courts cannot let this go unpunished.

Finally, police are going to have to train too to handle CCW holders and realize that not all guys with a gun are the BG. I know that sounds odd but in areas of "shall issue" circumstance, the local LE are going to have to come to grips that more and more people are protecting themselves and coming across a citizen screaming. " call 911" with a gun in his hand might be someone you order to drop his weapon before blindsiding to the ground.

[Indigo]

This brings up another point that I have read in posts between all you other members countless times. You have to know whether or not ahead of time how you feel about pulling the trigger. Having a gun with you makes you feel all warm and fuzzy but it doesn't do any good if you aren't prepared to use it. Quite possibly this man reacted to the first guy and shot on instinct but then at that point only began thinking and considering the consequences after the fact. Maybe he ran because he regretted shooting the first guy and didn't want to shoot anybody else. Then the running into the officer put him into another kill or be killed scenario again repeating the cycle. I don't know I wasn't there and hope I don't ever have to be. Paper doesn't shoot back.

[knkali]

This brings up another point that I have read in posts between all you other members countless times. You have to know whether or not ahead of time how you feel about pulling the trigger. Having a gun with you makes you feel all warm and fuzzy but it doesn't do any good if you aren't prepared to use it. Quite possibly this man reacted to the first guy and shot on instinct but then at that point only began thinking and considering the consequences after the fact. Maybe he ran because he regretted shooting the first guy and didn't want to shoot anybody else. Then the running into the officer put him into another kill or be killed scenario again repeating the cycle. I don't know I wasn't there and hope I don't ever have to be. Paper doesn't shoot back.

Amen

[wyntrout]

A lot of the preparation is mental... having considered the legal and moral consequences with respect to using a weapon on someone. You really can't wait to sort all of that out when a situation arises... the hesitation... even half a second, could be fatal.

Read the essay or pamphlet by Jeff Cooper Principles of Personal Defense, available here:

http://www.brainphreak.net/theblackpacket/survival/selfdefense.html

It's short... 58 pages with not so many pages of actual text. I read it online or in pdf form rather quickly the other afternoon. It will give you some things to think about and build on.

Wynn:)

[Husky44]

Agree with all the posts on mental preparation, and with the idea that there's benefit for all of us to consider and discuss the details, for learning purposes.

Would encourage all to exercise caution when judging the actions of others; words like "wimp" don't add any value to the discussion. I'm sure most of us have been in at least one life-or-death situation, even if it's just behind the wheel of a car. The truth is, judgment is gone, instinct and ingrained behavior takes over. Drills and training are vital to successfully responding during the "adrenaline dump" so many mention. Depending on being able to remember what you read won't be much help. We'll probably never be able to learn the whole story, because this guy will need to filter it through the lawyers in order to shape it for his own benefit, but in many instances, if you rely on remembering what you read, or were told in your CC class, you may have a flawed memory occur: What if the first thing that this guy remembered was only the part about "if you're involved in a shooting, call 911 and tell them you had to defend yourself and want the guy arrested" or whatever it is that so many instructors emphasize to protect yourself legally?

We need to TRAIN on what to do, both on the square range, and in dryfire rehearsals, on what to do when target #1 goes down. Calling 911 is something you have time to think about. Neutralizing the immediate threat, assessing situation, finding cover, and reloading are things you shouldn't be thinking about, they should be unconscious actions that come from the conditioning of repetitive training in multiple different scenarios. Calling 911 is for after the fight's over, and you can prepare for it by drafting a boilerplate script to keep in your wallet next to your CCW permit, if what to say on the call is a significant concern.

[TriggerMan]

....Tire Man slams open the door, pulls the Glock and shoots BG3 in the leg and takes off running across the street to a fast food store to get help...

Now here is where everything falls apart for everyone...An off duty Police officer is in his car at the business next door to the fast food place and hears the gun shot and sees Tire Man running across the street with a gun in his hand and starts to chase him...Tire Man runs up to the window and yells for the cashier to call 911 as he has shot a robber just as the Police Officer tackles him on the sidewalk and is yelling at Tire Man to drop the gun and trying to get his arm to handcuff him...

..Rather than being a wimp, he was after all out numbered 3 to 1 and in a strange area, MAYBE his failure at this point was not having a CELL PHONE!!!! I think there has to be a 'rule' that when the gun is on your person, you MUST have your permit AND a cell phone. I NEVER leave anyone of those three items at home when I go out.

He wasn't thinking clearly if he thought help was available at a fast food place...unless he needed a phone desperately.

[kerby9mm]

Tireman sure should have done things differently but now he has had a rehearsal to do better the next time. We can all benefit from this if something ever arises in our life (what is the percentage of that) and now if it does this situation will be in our mind. Don't forget your government mandated ********* required to have a gun permit rule to go with your forced health insurance.

[tv_racin_fan]

The article I read on this incident doesn't quite track with this one. Sadly it seems the law wants to charge tireman simply because he shot a cop no matter the circumstance because they believe if he isn't charged it will seem to others that they can just shoot a cop any ole time with no repercussion.

[wyntrout]

Dang! This happened almost 2 years ago!

First "News" link I found to this:

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/shooting-suspect-thought-cop-1339626.html

Wynn

[TriggerMan]

Dang! This happened almost 2 years ago!

First "News" link I found to this:

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/shooting-suspect-thought-cop-1339626.html

WynnOn the one hand, troubling that it was in "broad daylight" and the Officer was in full uniform. However, I don't buy the supposed motivation suggested by the Prosecution. Hard to know what goes on in someone's head. Equally hard to see him getting off based on intent. It's his actions which will be judged. Has he filed a charge against the guy who rammed him with the truck? Seems that he should if only for appearances.


I'm curious to see the final outcome. I bet he's broke from legal fees already.

[tv_racin_fan]

“It is a hard case for that young man, and I hate to see it be that way,” Melvin said. “You can’t say how scared he was or why he couldn’t understand the guy was a police officer. But if he doesn’t go to jail, it will look like he can shoot a police officer and get away with it.”

Seems to me like the prosecutor doesn't care what the facts are. Doesn't care who is at fault only that the guy can not go free after shooting the cop because of how it will look in his mind.

[Ikeo74]

We can only make a logical post about this story if we are sitting in the jury box and hearing all the facts from both sides. Any thing else is pure speculation. I speculate that Tire Man may not have had a squeky clean past either. We are missing a lot of information from this story. Therefore I withhold any additional comment.

[knkali]

We can only make a logical post about this story if we are sitting in the jury box and hearing all the facts from both sides. Any thing else is pure speculation. I speculate that Tire Man may not have had a squeky clean past either. We are missing a lot of information from this story. Therefore I withhold any additional comment.

smart

[TriggerMan]

We can only make a logical post about this story if we are sitting in the jury box and hearing all the facts from both sides. Any thing else is pure speculation. I speculate that Tire Man may not have had a squeky clean past either. We are missing a lot of information from this story. Therefore I withhold any additional comment.Clean enough to have a valid CCW permit?

[wyntrout]

Another article is really confused:

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/no-bond-for-man-538250.html

Wynn:rolleyes:

[Ikeo74]

Is this the same story we have been commenting about? If so, it's a whole new story completely different than imagined and told as. Whew. :eek: Evidently "Tire Man" was a convicted felon and probably selling stolen merchandise.:53:Felons do not have CCW permits either! None of these guys are "good guys" except the cop.
Link from aboce post: http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/no-bond-for-man-538250.html

Waiting to hear from Triggerman!

[TriggerMan]

Is this the same story we have been commenting about? If so, it's a whole new story completely different than imagined and told as. Whew. :eek: Evidently "Tire Man" was a convicted felon and probably selling stolen merchandise.:53:Felons do not have CCW permits either! None of these guys are "good guys" except the cop.
Link from aboce post: http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/no-bond-for-man-538250.html

Waiting to hear from Triggerman!The original story said he had a CCW.

"Good guy CCW for the story we will call Tire Man has no criminal history and has his CCW permit and owns a local tire shop ..."

Neither of the two other recently posted stories dispute that or pin a felony record on him. The only "new" info is that the shooting started earlier than at Popeye's. Reporters can be terrible at details.

[wyntrout]

I posted the link to the last article because it was confused and inaccurate... like a piece of gossip... early "report".

Wynn:)

[Ubaldo99]

Wow! What a story. More proof (if any was needed) that when the stuff starts to hit the fan, then all bets are off.

[Ikeo74]

The original story said he had a CCW.

"Good guy CCW for the story we will call Tire Man has no criminal history and has his CCW permit and owns a local tire shop ..."

Neither of the two other recently posted stories dispute that or pin a felony record on him. The only "new" info is that the shooting started earlier than at Popeye's. Reporters can be terrible at details.

Story says Tire Man is being held on a felony charge. A felon with in posession of a firearm is a felony charge. Why else would he be held for a felony charge? Also this story states Tire Man shot the policeman during a shootout in a Popeyes fast food parking lot. No mention of shooting behind his back without seeing who he was shooting at. "Tire Man" is going to be convicted! :ohmy: Original story about a CCW license was evidently wrong!
Atibi Thomas remains in the Fulton County Jail, charged with aggravated assault on a police officer and possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony.

[Husky44]

Look at the article dates. Link in post38 is from Feb 2012. Other links are from 2010. I'd say the first, most recent, is most accurate.

[TriggerMan]

Story says Tire Man is being held on a felony charge. A felon with in posession of a firearm is a felony charge. Why else would he be held for a felony charge? Also this story states Tire Man shot the policeman during a shootout in a Popeyes fast food parking lot. No mention of shooting behind his back without seeing who he was shooting at. "Tire Man" is going to be convicted! :ohmy: Original story about a CCW license was evidently wrong!
Atibi Thomas remains in the Fulton County Jail, charged with aggravated assault on a police officer and possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony.Isn't the felony that he attempted to kill
a police officer? He used a firearm to commit the current alleged felony. Anyway, that's how I took it.

[Jeremiah/Az]

Witnesses attempted to break up the altercation prior to the arrival of uniformed officers, he said. "Quote"

Those witnesses had some cajones, after all that shootin'!

[wyntrout]

I've read 4 or 5 different online articles and all are muddled. The "facts" are screwed up in each. The incident occurred almost two years ago and some of those articles are within days of the event and not well founded.

The "Tire Man" had no record up until that incident and he had a legal CWP. The felony charge is about him shooting the cop in "a uniform shirt". He didn't want to take a plea deal... just wants his record to be clean again. I doubt that will happen because the "establishment" wants to make an example of him.

Wynn

[getsome]

Thank you all for your inputs on this subject...I'm the OP and if I got some of the facts wrong I do apologize...I read the article dated 2-9-12 in the Atlanta Journal but by the time I posted I no longer had the paper in my possesion....

I didn't realize this happened 2 years ago and is just now going to trial but it will be interesting to see how it comes out but I think Tireman will end up doing some time unfortunately...

The Atlanta paper AKA " the fishwrapper" for good reason is owned by the Cox family which also owns the major TV and radio station in town WSB and both the paper and TV news are blatantly anti gun and any time there is a news story about robery or shooting the TV station always has a picture of a gun posted behind the talking heads like the gun just decided to hold somebody up all by itself....They are also not known for their steller reporting of any story...There is what the news said happened then what the witnesses say went down then what the persons involved say happened and then there is the truth which usually is somewhere in the middle...

I posted this to see what others thought and hoped it would make us all really think long and hard about what we would do is a similar situation....I think I would do pretty much the same and not stick around and shoot it out with mutiple bad guys and running away to seek help and cover seems like the best idea to me...

I have given much thought to what I would do if God forbid I was involved in a shooting as to what to do with the gun until the police get there so as not to possibly get shot by a gung ho police officer thinking I was the bad guy...I'm still not sure of the correct thing to do here, on the one hand I would want to secure the gun myself in case the BG had some friends and let the Police take it from my holster while my hands are on my head but on the other hand I wouldn't want to possibly get shot by accident...

I have learned to always have a cell phone and the best thing to say to the 911 operator is to give a good description of myself and what I am wearing and that a shooting has occured defending myself but not saying anything that might cause any issues to myself later in court...Its best to say as little as possible to the police and ask for a lawyer...

I hope to God that I never find myself in Tiremans position and I'm not really sure what I would do but in looking at his situation in hindsight I agree he made a mistake in following someone he didn't know away from his business and in not making the call to 911 himself from a cell phone he should have had on him...

I think none of us really knows how we will react until it really happens...I think this case is an interesting one for anyone who carries a firearm for protection and hopefully we can all learn from Tiremans unfortunate mistakes in a situation gone really bad...

[wyntrout]

Thanks for the post, Getsome. It HAS been thought provoking and educational. It provoked the usual "armed" chair/macho responses, but there were cooler discussions, too. 2020 hindsight in the comfort of your home just isn't fair to the person in the situation. Even in training like the military, you can only do so much, and how you react to real situations is different for everyone.

You bring up a good point... one that I've always planned... when calling 911, to give a description of yourself so that it can be passed on to the responding officers. They tend to treat everyone as the bad guy until they get a handle on things.

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

I'm looking forward to the next season of Top Shot. They introduce aspects and conditions that you don't normally face when firing at paper targets at the range. It's educational to see how the different individuals react.

Yeah, it's a reality show and kind of hokey at times, but there are some interesting weapons and scenarios used. I can remember the first season and one early event, if not the first, the marksmen had to run up a hill and then load a bolt-action rifle and shoot a target... large bottle(?)... at about 100 yards. Well, the first guy was in his early 20's... the youngest. He ran up the hill quickly, loaded the rifle, and made the shot. Wow! I thought that would be a challenge to the older guys. Ha! That's where age and cunning, etc. come in. The rest got up the hill as quickly as they could and loaded one or two rounds instead of five to fill up the magazine. EVERYONE else beat the young kid! Seeing the task and knowing their own capabilities allowed them to save time by just loading one round or two.

Sometimes the things done on there are phenomenal... like when Big Mike came back to the show for a second chance last season. He made a backwards run down a zipline and hit every freaking target in 20 or so... all of them. The other guys only got a few.

The young guy from Texas who everyone made fun of and tried to eliminate, wound up winning the top place. I was really rooting for him... being self-taught and no seasoned champion as many of the others were.

Wynn:)