Covering your butt with private sales?

[Scoundrel]

We've already covered one side of this topic, in regard to paperwork that can be generated and sent in when selling guns privately, but there's another aspect I am curious about: Buying from a private seller.

Last year, someone smashed the window of my car in a restaurant parking lot and took my laptop bag with $2000 worth of laptop and accessories in it. I spent the next couple of months watching CraigsList postings, trying to find someone selling it. I e-mailed more than a few of the sellers for specifics about the model number or components (working my way up to asking for the serial number), but always disqualified them based on the components inside not matching mine exactly. Never did find it, nor did Lynnwood PD.

Anyway, getting closer to my point, during this period of vigilance I looked at a LOT of laptops on CL, and I actually saw one with a configuration and price tag that I wanted to acquire, to replace my stolen one while I saved up for a new one. I asked for the serial number, but the guy said he couldn't find it. I arranged to meet him, and brought a couple of armed friends with me. After turning it over and seeing the serial number right there, plain as day, I told him I needed a few minutes to talk it over with my wife via cell phone. I got in my car and called the police, and asked them to run a serial number search. After a brief false positive (serial number matched but model number was different - I guess the laptop MFGs recycle the serial numbers), it came up clean and I bought it from him.

The point is, I was able to call the police and have the serial number looked up. I did this by calling the detective who was working on my stolen laptop case.

But I have no doubt she's moved on to another role or another department by now (it is clear to me that they put rookies on the stolen property cases), and I am now thinking about what would happen if I called for a serial number check on a handgun?

I mean, what would that look like? Let me tell you, even though this detective knew who I was and had given me her business card in person, I got the "hairy eyeball" over the telephone when I called this in. She told me "even if the serial number isn't in the database, 90% of laptops for sale on CL are stolen" and her tone of voice indicated that she clearly did not want me to buy it, but couldn't give me any definitive reason not to.

CL doesn't allow gun/ammo sales, but if I got in touch with a private seller through some other channel, how would I approach this?

If I arranged to meet at a gun shop, could the gun shop handle the serial number checking for me, if they were OK with the scenario? Or, would gun shops not want to be involved in a situation like this because they weren't getting a percentage? Would they want to be cut in on it?

Imagine asking the seller to go to a gun shop to mediate the transaction and pay a cut to the gun shop in exchange for making sure he's not a criminal.


...and that right there is a whole HOST of reasons to buy a new gun or buy used ones only from gun shops, completely aside from concerns about the quality or functionality of such a weapon.

Input?

[Husky44]

I've never bought a used gun, and don't have any intentions to; primarily for the reason that I don't trust others' maintenance abilities, but also for the reasons you list above.

[Bawanna]

We will not run a serial number for any item gun or otherwise unless the item is in hand. She really shouldn't have run that for you.

A gun shop could do the transfer paperwork but would not be able to tell if the gun is stolen.

[Scoundrel]

We will not run a serial number for any item gun or otherwise unless the item is in hand. She really shouldn't have run that for you.

A gun shop could do the transfer paperwork but would not be able to tell if the gun is stolen.

So any gun I see used in a gun shop could be stolen? The gun shop wouldn't have been able to check that? What about pawn shops?

How in the world can/does anyone buy a used gun with that uncertainty hanging around?

Imagine having to use your CCW, and during the resulting investigation, it comes out that you've been carrying a burner?

[Bawanna]

So any gun I see used in a gun shop could be stolen? The gun shop wouldn't have been able to check that? What about pawn shops?

How in the world can/does anyone buy a used gun with that uncertainty hanging around?

Imagine having to use your CCW, and during the resulting investigation, it comes out that you've been carrying a burner?

Most everything that goes through a pawn shop, in fact everything that has a serial number is reported to LE. Depending on manpower and time it all gets checked and entered in a national data base.

I'd venture to say most things in a pawn shop are unreported stolens. Kids from parents, spouses from spouses.

Until recently we never ran serial numbers on gun transfers but we do now after finding some stolen. One was even new.

[Scoundrel]

OK, that's pawn shops. Probably best to stay away from those.

What about used ones at local gun shops?

I'm starting to get the idea that I'd never want a used gun unless I could trust the source to know its history. Makes me wonder about the Ruger P95 I bought from my sister, who bought it from a LGS a few years back, which I have now passed on to my dad. Have I just put a stolen gun in my dad's hands? How would I find out?

You say the dept won't run serial numbers without having one in hand. I can't exactly walk into a police station with a gun and ask them to run it. I'd probably get perforated, or at least spend a few days on vacation in a nice iron cage, especially if it did turn out to be stolen.

So what options are available to people who want to perform due diligence?

[LMT42]

If you're that concerned, just stick with new guns. I think you're being over cautious though. There are countless websites for buying, selling and trading used firearms (in Texas anyway) and I haven't heard of problems with stolen guns. I'm guessing that most stolen firearms are sold/traded with other criminals on the street. I've made a few transactions using websites and haven't met any sketchy characters. If I ever do, I'll cut bait and not make the purchase or sell.

[Bawanna]

If your buying from a shop your covered. If it turns out to be stolen it's their loss. It rarely happens but in our case people call. They bring the gun or item in cased or in a bag etc. I go get it and then run it.
If its clean they get it back, if it's stolen they don't.
Most departments will only do this for their own jurisdiction. Some may do it over the phone too, we never have.

[Scoundrel]

If you're that concerned, just stick with new guns. I think you're being over cautious though.

My first ever gun acquisition was a trade for a ferret (great trade - the ferret has long since passed away but the gun still runs great). More recent ones have been new, except for that Ruger P95 which I did as a favor because my sister needed rent money, and one NAA .22 revolver.

So far, I find that the new guns are the ones I am happiest with, except the .22 magnum that fell apart in my hands.

I think I will most likely stick with new ones from this point on. Maybe I'm being over cautious, but with my luck something would go wrong and I'd get the shaft.

I find that I like the modern styling best anyway, so I won't be acquiring any vintage/classic pieces unless a long lost relative dies and leaves me one.

[Scoundrel]

BTW, I _HATE_ being told I worry too much, when the media is full of stories about people getting screwed over by overzealous LEOs and prosecutors, and there is little or no framework for law abiding citizens to try and do the right thing without putting themselves in very stressful situations.

I can think of 350 different things I'd rather do than walk into a police station with a used firearm after calling ahead, to have its serial number run. Whacking myself in the testicles with a rubber mallet is on that list.

/rant

[O'Dell]

I've bought a few used guns, a couple from Bud's and several from my LGS. I trust both and have never had a problem, except that one from Bud's and four from the LGS were stolen from me.

[Popeye]

I sell my guns FFL to guys who can pass the states ok to own a firearm . I do not expect for anyone to sell me a gun other than the same way. I cover my butt and they cover there's. No problem.

[CJB]

I've bought, sold, traded... never an issue that I know of.

I think the reason is because I've stayed within the firearms enthusiasts community not the seedier parts of society. And... face to face. And I sit and BS with folks, we talk guns, we talk ranges, we talk ammo, we talk about this person who works here, and that person who works there, and we make a deal. If anything sounded weird, I'd back off. I tend to get collectors pieces, or first owner items, or... estate liquidation sometimes - like the nice collection of Springfield Armory rifles from Garand to Trapdoor dating back to 1870's, and all points in between.:eek:

[OldLincoln]

Good subject and one I hadn't thought about. Someday I hope to buy a used 45 and in CA we have a Face-to-Face at gun store provision. I sold my Colt Mustang with a FTF and the gun store filled out some paper but I didn't see them do a serial check. They even did a gun safety routine with the new owner.

I thought I saw something a long time back where you can check a web site to see if the serial is hot. The down side was most will be sold before they make it to the list. So I guess if you buy a stolen gun and try to register it for carry you loose the gun. Moral is you better know who you are buying from.

[ltxi]

I'm with CJB on this. I have and will buy, sell, trade with trusted relatives and friends, and vouched for friends of friends, with no hesitation....nor usually formal paperwork for that matter. Paper not required here for private transactions. I'll also deal used with a couple of local dealers/shops and some collectors at gun shows with FFL transfers.

For the very few additional defense firearms I've purchased within the last decade or will buy it was/will be new, Glocks excepted.

[jdlott74]

Jlottmc has a SELECT few who he will sell to or buy from.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

[muggsy]

I usually cover my privates with a fig leaf. Oops, sorry, I misread the title. :o

[wyntrout]

I've sold a lot of guns face to face... usually just a bill of sale for each of us... one that I made. I haven't sold to anyone under age or "seedy-looking". I've sold at gun shows in Texas, and garage sales and newspaper ads here. I've asked for Driver's License on checks and military IDs are great. I do keep some kind of records... still have several pages of guns with prices and dispositions dating back to the 70's. My name is on the original sales records... yellow sheets... for most of them, so I do have records... informal, but dated records.

Wynn:)

[tv_racin_fan]

I've bought and traded but not sold as yet.

One guy asked me to sign a bill of sale which I had no issue with then he asked me if I wanted a copy. I told him I wanted no part of something that ATF might construe as someone trying to deal without the proper permit.

[cgpeanut]

Folks here in TN asks for a CCW permit and or a driver's license plus the bill of sale for the gun. That's it. so yeah it's scary sometimes :(

My local LGS only do FTL to FTL transfer because they don't like the "hassle" if the gun proves to be stolen etc.. I can't blame them since they only charge $15.00 for the FTL and a $10.00 for the background check. Yep, here in TN we do a background check on each gun a person buys.

[Tilos]

Your BEST source for this info is any gun store, it's in their best interest to know ALL the ins and outs of your concerns because they deal with it everyday all day long and go to jail or loose their FFL if they screw up.

Their interest is not casual, as it is their livelyhood, feeds their family, etc.

Don't expect them to spend all day educating you for FREE.
Do your transfers thru a FFL/gunstore, PAY them to do the checks needed to put your mind at ease, much like you PAY a closing agent to handle a home purchase.

Oh, and your opening statement is WRONG, no paperwork is sent anywhere, so when they snap the cuffs on, the "but I read it on the internet" isn't worth spit.

YMMV,
Tilos

[Scoundrel]

Oh, and your opening statement is WRONG, no paperwork is sent anywhere, so when they snap the cuffs on, the "but I read it on the internet" isn't worth spit.
YMMV,
Tilos

When following a long thread of opinions, and saying something like "your opening statement is WRONG", you might want to quote the source that you are refuting, to avoid confusion.

If you were referring to MY opening statement of "paperwork that can be generated and sent in when selling guns privately", then I would emphasize the "CAN BE" part of it, and refer you to this website: http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/faforms.html - specifically, to this form: http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf

This post is not an argument, simply a clarification that my opening statement is correct. There IS paperwork that CAN BE generated and sent in regarding a private firearm sale, at least in Washington State.

This situation is a classic example of why "I read it on the internet" isn't worth spit.

[jocko]

amen to that stuff scoundrel..

[Tilos]

Funny that you knew what statement I was talknig about:D

"We've already covered one side of this topic, in regard to paperwork that can be generated and sent in when selling guns privately, but there's another aspect I am curious about: Buying from a private seller."

That does not mention the state of Washington, now, does it:confused:

Not looking for an argument either, just giving a source for the correct info.
Maybe you want to hear about all the other state's different hoops to jump thru.

Thanks for reading and responding to my post.
You might get the info you want by posting:
http://www.northwestfirearms.com/forum.php

I don't live in Washington...carry on,
Tilos

[Scoundrel]

Funny that you knew what statement I was talknig about:D

That does not mention the state of Washington, now, does it:confused:

Tilos

I looked through the thread to see who/what else you might be referring to, concluded that my statement was the most likely reference of your comment, and addressed it.

Agreed, I did not mention Washington State specifically. Nor did you mention which state(s) there is no movement of paperwork in. Anyway, I think we've reach a point of diminishing returns on this exchange. I've updated my location to help avoid future misunderstandings related to localities.