.380 HP vs. Ball for Defense.

[yatyas42]

I have a good friend who admittedly is much smarter than I when it comes to ballistics. He is a former S.F. Military Iraq vet. We agree that we hate carrying .380's but they do have a purpose every once in a while. He told me that he carries +p round nose ammo instead of hollowpoints in his. He said he does It for the penetration and the internal shock. He cited that the FBI test put .380 at 12" of penetration (I don't know how accurate that is). I see the logic in that theory, but I am curious what the knowledgeable folks here have to say about it. There is a similar thread just started but I did not want to hijack it.

[LaP]

The arguement will fall into predictable viewpoints. Shot placement vs. penetration vs. the ability of .380 to expand properly.

Take your pick. They're all good arguements. You just have to decide which one suits your situation and then you're all set to defend you choice.
Enjoy the debate.:D

[ltxi]

Ball is always just ball. I didn't even know anyone loaded it in +P. Don't see the point. Carry a decent modern hollow point round like Speer's Gold Dot for defense in .380.

[Bawanna]

Momma always told me never to disagree with Itxi but most I know that carry 380 carry ball ammo. I know some who do the same with 9 but not near as many.
I don't do 380 but I think I'd lean towards a good hollow point myself although I have serious doubts it would work.

[wyntrout]

I carry Buffalo Bore 90-grain +P JHP in my P380. I also have their 95-grain +P FMJ for cold weather and heavy clothing penetration. The Buffalo Bore is STOUT stuff and should be sufficient for my use. I would never carry regular ball .380 for every occasion. I DO use it at the range. The P380 is my around and about the house gun... and for short trips to the convenience store for lottery tickets... when that's my only destination and I don't change clothes... T-shirt, shorts with drawstring, and flip-flops... in any weather. I'm never more than 10 feet away from a more powerful weapon around the house.

Wynn:)

[ltxi]

Momma always told me never to disagree with Itxi but most I know that carry 380 carry ball ammo. I know some who do the same with 9 but not near as many.
I don't do 380 but I think I'd lean towards a good hollow point myself although I have serious doubts it would work.

Imo...used to be that .380 ball was a good choice or at least a wash. Kinda like .25 ACP. Why bother with hp that costs a lot more, has potentially worse penetration, and won't expand anyway. Modern bullet and cartridge technology has changed that.

[jaggedx]

I'm with wyntrout. Buffalo Bore 90-grain +P JHP for the P380. I started out at the range yesterday shooting my carry rounds. The BB stuff is strait shooting powerful stuff and they run like butter, even through my fairly new (<500 rounds) P380.

As for penetration, well I'm gonna bet most BGs won't be walking away from a few rounds of BB. But that's just MHO.

[kahrnut1]

corbon dpx expands perfectly shot from my p380 into wet phonebooks. some books fell over but none walked away.

[LaP]

corbon dpx expands perfectly shot from my p380 into wet phonebooks. some books fell over but none walked away.

That calls for a few follow-up shots. You don't have to be quick about it, those books move reeeeal slow.

[yatyas42]

I am guessing that he meant FMJ, I mis spoke by using "ball", if that helps the discussion. I have never tried the wet phone book method to test ballistics, but I will definitely use that one!

[wyntrout]

The Buffalo Bore FMJ is flat-nosed like the .40 S&W... not really "ball".

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

I am guessing that he meant FMJ, I mis spoke by using "ball", if that helps the discussion. I have never tried the wet phone book method to test ballistics, but I will definitely use that one!

Usually Ball and FMJ are considered the same, at least with the 3 people I hang out with. Although FMJ isn't always round, it can have a flat front.

[Cokeman]

Usually Ball and FMJ are considered the same, at least with the 3 people I hang out with. Although FMJ isn't always round, it can have a flat front.

That's what I thought. I figured that HP was HP and ball was all non-HP. Is it more of a bullet shape thing? What's a wadcutter? :confused:

[wyntrout]

Here's where I videoed firing the P380 and posted comparisons and pictures of the ammo and flashes:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=76509#post76509

Wynn:)

[TriggerMan]

Here's where I videoed firing the P380 and posted comparisons and pictures of the ammo and flashes:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=76509#post76509

Wynn:)Love your pictures of muzzle flash. I carry Gold Dots in my Sig P238 .380. It's a BUG.

[Popeye]

JHP in all my pistols for SD. Ranging from .380,9mm, to 45 acp. If your going to make a hole might as well make the biggest ugliest one can with whatever tool your using. ;)

[Barth]

I have a good friend who admittedly is much smarter than I when it comes to ballistics. He is a former S.F. Military Iraq vet. We agree that we hate carrying .380's but they do have a purpose every once in a while. He told me that he carries +p round nose ammo instead of hollowpoints in his. He said he does It for the penetration and the internal shock. He cited that the FBI test put .380 at 12" of penetration (I don't know how accurate that is). I see the logic in that theory, but I am curious what the knowledgeable folks here have to say about it. There is a similar thread just started but I did not want to hijack it.

9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.380 Win Silvertip | 85@ 954, 11.6 mv, 172 E|BR 7.9", 0.58", 2.09cu|CL 9.1", 0.47", 1.58cu|avg 1.83, 1.11 re, 1.65
.380 CCI/Speer GD | 88@ 914, 11.5 mv, 163 E|BR 11.6", 0.46", 1.92cu|CL 17.2", 0.35", 1.66cu|avg 1.79, 1.09 re, 1.64
.380 CCI/Speer GD | 90@ 934, 12.0 mv, 174 E|BR 9.3", 0.59", 2.54cu|CL 11.3", 0.49", 2.14cu|avg 2.34, 1.19 re, 1.96
.380 Fed HydraShok | 90@ 971, 12.5 mv, 188 E|BR 6.7", 0.66", 2.29cu|CL 12.0", 0.49", 2.26cu|avg 2.28, 1.29 re, 1.77

[johnh]

Interesting info Barth. The .380 does better than I would have expected in comparison to the 9mm Ranger. I need to get some better .380 JHPs. I the stuff I am carrying is pretty dated.

[Barth]

Interesting info Barth. The .380 does better than I would have expected in comparison to the 9mm Ranger. I need to get some better .380 JHPs. I the stuff I am carrying is pretty dated.

Yup, Yup.
For years I completely discounted .380.
And had serious doubts about 9mm.

The rules have changed - LOL

[wyntrout]

At Ballistics by the Inch they have real world results for some popular ammo through most guns... and lots of info:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto2.html#RW

P380 and many others are there.

Wynn:)

[Bill K]

I've carried a .380 for a few years here in CT and in PA when visiting family or hunting. Summer I carry HPs, generally Corbon DPX or Gold Dots. Prior to this winter I had been carrying hard cast flat nose due to heavier clothing but now carry Hornady Critical Defense. Spring I'll switch back to HP.

[HDoc]

That calls for a few follow-up shots. You don't have to be quick about it, those books move reeeeal slow.

You should know that phone books have a reputation as difficult kills.
They require a Mozambique drill of two in the white pages and one in the yellow.

[muggsy]

If I were carrying a .380 and I am, I'd run ball in the winter months for penetration and hollow points in the summer for expansion. I'd also make sure that both rounds fed reliably in my gun. A gun that won't go bang every time you pull the trigger won't protect you as well as one that will.

[ltxi]

That's what I thought. I figured that HP was HP and ball was all non-HP. Is it more of a bullet shape thing? What's a wadcutter? :confused:


Flat faced lead bullets loaded flush with the case face. Normally used lightly loaded for target work. Cuts clean holes in paper.

Back in the day, before god invented hollow points, hollow base wadcutters were often loaded base out for expansion for use in snubs for defense.

Almost revolver exclusive for the obvious reason. There was one well known auto chambered for these....the S&W Model 52, a variant of the M59.

Not to be confused with the semi-wadcutter variation which were usually hard cast hunting and defense rounds.

[jocko]

If I were carrying a .380 and I am, I'd run ball in the winter months for penetration and hollow points in the summer for expansion. I'd also make sure that both rounds fed reliably in my gun. A gun that won't go bang every time you pull the trigger won't protect you as well as one that will.

on ther go bang thing every time. I just carry the powerball in my P380 24/7, feeds like a fmj round, kinda hot round and so far goes bang every time. Course I never carryt the gun anymore either

If it was not so much of a hassle for me I would post it here on the forum and sell it. as it is xs bog dot set up with grip stipplying and mag well cut out, been back to kahr once and sinc ehas been OK but I just never carry it.

[yatyas42]

@Barth, thanks for that data table with the explanation. I guess one thing I don't understand is why the penetration was so much deeper in clothed gelatin over bare. Common sense would tell me that the cloth would slow things down. I noticed that CR had smaller expansion, which could lead to more penetration, but why the smaller expansion with cloth? Again to me denies common sense. BTW I love this forum.

[wyntrout]

Flat faced lead bullets loaded flush with the case face. Normally used lightly loaded for target work. Cuts clean holes in paper.

Back in the day, before god invented hollow points, hollow base wadcutters were often loaded base out for expansion for use in snubs for defense.



I haven't had a .38 or .357 for a long time, but I finally got to fire off the last six of those reversed wadcutters I had made for defensive use back in the 70's. They fired OK, but all keyholed at 7 yards. That was on the range trip with my buddy when he had those old cartridges rupture.

Wynn:)

[Big_John_1961]

Those are great shots, Wyn!

[Bill K]

@Barth, thanks for that data table with the explanation. I guess one thing I don't understand is why the penetration was so much deeper in clothed gelatin over bare. Common sense would tell me that the cloth would slow things down. I noticed that CR had smaller expansion, which could lead to more penetration, but why the smaller expansion with cloth? Again to me denies common sense. BTW I love this forum.

If you're talking about a HP bullet then likely the cloth clogged the point and as a result the bullet entered the gelatin as if it were ball ammo. Without the cloth the bullet expanded and as a result got less penetration.

[muggsy]

on ther go bang thing every time. I just carry the powerball in my P380 24/7, feeds like a fmj round, kinda hot round and so far goes bang every time. Course I never carryt the gun anymore either

If it was not so much of a hassle for me I would post it here on the forum and sell it. as it is xs bog dot set up with grip stipplying and mag well cut out, been back to kahr once and sinc ehas been OK but I just never carry it.

I carry a P3AT as a back up for my CM9. The .380 is usually in my jacket or pants pocket depending on the time of year. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger using Golden Saber or Ball Ammo. Some day I'll replace it with a P380, but not today. I keep hoping that Kahr will come out with a C380. I like no frill EDC pistols.

[onegun]

I don't carry a .380 but I have. In Vietnam I carried a PPK as backup to whatever else I was carrying. That's where I first began carrying a backup weapon (and used it) and it worked for me thru 42 years with Uncle Sam (mostly a J frame tho') I tried a P380 as it seemed like a perfect BUG but it wasn't for me. Mine was a piece of junk and way too small for my big old arthritic hands. If I were to carry a .380 today I would use DPX or Buffalo Bore ammo. With the advances in ammo over the last few years I would feel good about carrying a .380 as a BUG. My 442 is in my pocket every day loaded with DPX and when I leave the house I carry something bigger. I may not need all that but my years of running around in bad places in the world put me in that habit. I know quit a few people that depend on a .380.