Factory Test Firing

[muggsy]

FYI, I contacted Kahr by e-mail and asked about how they test fire each new gun. Eoin Pryal informed me that Kahr runs four six round magazines through each gun before the guns are shipped to the dealers. They use a variety of ammunition, but all ammunition is brass cased, copper jacketed factory first ammunition that meets SAAMI specs. The guns are not cleaned after the test firing.

[wyntrout]

That seems like a lot of testing for each gun... much more than I would have thought. Thanks for the info, Muggsy.

Wynn:)

[kerby9mm]

Does that include the p380's? I am skeptical of what he told you due to all the problems I read about on this forum. I have been told things by their cs that I found out wasn't quite true to put it politely

[jocko]

I wold betif u call and get another kahr person the testing round count is gonna be alot different. I have asked that question awhile back and was told an entirely different story. 28 rounds sounds like alot of test firing. Maybe on returned guns for service but a new gun that seems alot. I was told that kahr shoots for a group also and I don't mean dead center in the bullseye, just a group of so many rounds in the same locationk which could be 4 inchs low and 4 nches tothe right even but if the group of good, thent he gun is good to do. Most are pretty close to dead on but kahr does not go around moving sights left or right. They set the sight by eye and then test for groups and certainly for funtionality to. Still for me 28 rounds seems alot..

[wyntrout]

That's one of things in the frequently asked questions at Kahr.com... "Why is my new gun dirty??"

Everyone should read those and watch the video associated with their new pistol. A LOT of questions would be answered and a lot of dumb mistakes would be avoided.

http://www.kahr.com/faq.asp

http://www.kahr.com/Kahr-Pistols-Parts/Kahr-Products.asp

Wynn:)

[knkali]

no way four mags worth. Maybe a new thing though to stop the complaint posts we see here. I hope they do fire that much though

[MLESa7990]

I bet he confused your question with how many rounds they put through a returned gun when test firing after a fix.

[Bawanna]

I was told the same thing, 6 mags from my friend in high places after repair.

[Rodenmg]

There's no way the CW9 I got just before Christmas had been fired that much. Not only was it spotless but it was way too oily. At a casual glance it didn't look to have had a round through it.

[muggsy]

Does that include the p380's? I am skeptical of what he told you due to all the problems I read about on this forum. I have been told things by their cs that I found out wasn't quite true to put it politely

I can only take the man at his word. I have no reason to doubt him.

[muggsy]

There's no way the CW9 I got just before Christmas had been fired that much. Not only was it spotless but it was way too oily. At a casual glance it didn't look to have had a round through it.

It's possible that your LGS cleaned the gun when they received it. My LGS cleaned and lubed mine. They also made sure that I could load and unload the gun and pointed out the built in safety features. That called customer service and a good LGSs will provide it.

[muggsy]

To all, I made a correction to the original post. The e-mail states that they run four six round magazines through each gun before they are shipped to the dealer. That 24 rounds total. Believe them or not, your choice. I have no reason to doubt what I was told.

[jocko]

even at that 24 rounds is IMO a bunch.I just live to close to Missouri to believe everything told to me.

Muggsy I am not doub ing what was told to u, as I would never doubt a name like Muggsy:blah:

One would think with 24 rounds at the test range that if there was any FTRB or FTE's encountered, they would fix it right then. I would also think in 24 rounds something like that should show up at least once. Course if it is magazine related, they do not use (test fire) the magazines that they ship with your gun.

Hell who knows:banplease:

[Popeye]

No offense Muggsy you can believe what you like but,
I'm not buying they shoot 4 mags 6 rounds each for a minute. If they did what's the criteria for what passes or fails? I'd be suprised if they shot more than three rounds. If they did what there telling you we wouldn't have some of the problems we hear about. I doubt there is one gun manufacturere that shoots that many rounds before the pistol is shipped.

[Tinman507]

I wanna know where to apply for that job?
My hearing is shot anyway.

How cool would it be to do nothing but shoot guns all day and get paid?
Just sayin :rolleyes:

[muggsy]

even at that 24 rounds is IMO a bunch.I just live to close to Missouri to believe everything told to me.

Muggsy I am not doub ing what was told to u, as I would never doubt a name like Muggsy:blah:

One would think with 24 rounds at the test range that if there was any FTRB or FTE's encountered, they would fix it right then. I would also think in 24 rounds something like that should show up at least once. Course if it is magazine related, they do not use (test fire) the magazines that they ship with your gun.

Hell who knows:banplease:

Jocko, my CM9 didn't have it's first FTF until round 75. The First FTE didn't occur until about 125 rounds were run through the gun. The first time that the slide failed to return to battery wasn't until I'd run about 180 through the tube. The first twenty five rounds were flawless. There's no telling when a problem might rear it's ugly head.

[jocko]

good point.

[muggsy]

No offense Muggsy you can believe what you like but,
I'm not buying they shoot 4 mags 6 rounds each for a minute. If they did what's the criteria for what passes or fails? I'd be suprised if they shot more than three rounds. If they did what there telling you we wouldn't have some of the problems we hear about. I doubt there is one gun manufacturere that shoots that many rounds before the pistol is shipped.

I'm sorry, but I already fulfilled my obligation to discover and report on how many rounds are fired in testing. It's now your obligation to discover and report the criteria for pass fail. You have three days to find out, or forever hold your peace. You had to open your big mouth, didn't you? :)

[TriggerMan]

No offense Muggsy you can believe what you like but,
I'm not buying they shoot 4 mags 6 rounds each for a minute. If they did what's the criteria for what passes or fails? I'd be suprised if they shot more than three rounds. If they did what there telling you we wouldn't have some of the problems we hear about. I doubt there is one gun manufacturere that shoots that many rounds before the pistol is shipped.Doesn't Ed Brown shoot 100?

[muggsy]

Doesn't Ed Brown shoot 100?

I never owned an Ed Brown, but I'm not about to argue with him. He a lot better shot than I am. :)

[jocko]

that would be alot of shooting but if he does, kudos to ed brown alnd also don't sh-t urself you paid for that in the price of his guns to.. I realize muggsy cm9 screwed up at 75 rounds + but this to me is not the norm. some things might occur at that round count but some things also should occur earlier or why do they even test fire a gun??? course to give kahr some credit also, we do not know if when they test fire their guns if issues do occur and the gun is then pulled off the line and back to the tech people for some TLC. I just do not think kahr would box up a gun that fokked up in 24 rounds.

also, how many guns does ed brown make a day?? 2 maybe ??? Could also be that Ed Brown knows his guns require X number of rounds to get right and to save a owner from sending it back to soon, he just does the break in work and adds that to the price of his guns. Most all of the major gun makers don't have the time to do that when making hundreds of guns a day and in Rugers case thousands of guns a day. let alone the over all cost involved in firing that many rounds.

Kahr is not shooting 0-24 rounds to test for reliability as much as for groupings.

[TriggerMan]

that would be alot of shooting but if he does, kudos to ed brown alnd also don't sh-t urself you paid for that in the price of his guns to.. I realize muggsy cm9 screwed up at 75 rounds + but this to me is not the norm. some things might occur at that round count but some things also should occur earlier or why do they even test fire a gun??? course to give kahr some credit also, we do not know if when they test fire their guns if issues do occur and the gun is then pulled off the line and back to the tech people for some TLC. I just do not think kahr would box up a gun that fokked up in 24 rounds.

also, how many guns does ed brown make a day?? 2 maybe ??? Could also be that Ed Brown knows his guns require X number of rounds to get right and to save a owner from sending it back to soon, he just does the break in work and adds that to the price of his guns. Most all of the major gun makers don't have the time to do that when making hundreds of guns a day and in Rugers case thousands of guns a day. let alone the over all cost involved in firing that many rounds.

Kahr is not shooting 0-24 rounds to test for reliability as much as for groupings.Whether I shoot the 100 rounds and pay for them OR Ed Brown shoots them and adds it to production costs, economically it comes out the same, although he pays less for ammo than I do.

Where this would help is

1. Reputation for being right..immed. out of the box
2. Customer perception of a better gun
3. Feed back on his QC and parts
4. Saves Overnight shipping costs MORE THAN OFFSETTING the ammo cost

You are right, it can only be done in low volumn companies.

[Popeye]

I'm sorry, but I already fulfilled my obligation to discover and report on how many rounds are fired in testing. It's now your obligation to discover and report the criteria for pass fail. You have three days to find out, or forever hold your peace. You had to open your big mouth, didn't you? :)

LOL Muggsy. You have to understand I really don't care what there critera is if a gun passes or fails it was just a passing thought nothing more. How could I possibly prove anything as being fact. So it really would be a waste of time now wouldn't it. I'm not buying another Kahr pistol and mine works fine. Thanks for your report of 4X6 and passing on what you were told. I'm sorry if you took offense to my reply as being anything personal. It wasn't meant to be, but as I said I'm not buying it.

Triggerman- Doesn't Ed Brown shoot 100? I honestly and truthfully couldn't say as I'm not there to see if he does or doesn't. I really think we're talking apples to oranges though when we're talking Ed Brown custom made 1911's pistols to Kahrs.

[muggsy]

that would be alot of shooting but if he does, kudos to ed brown alnd also don't sh-t urself you paid for that in the price of his guns to.. I realize muggsy cm9 screwed up at 75 rounds + but this to me is not the norm. some things might occur at that round count but some things also should occur earlier or why do they even test fire a gun??? course to give kahr some credit also, we do not know if when they test fire their guns if issues do occur and the gun is then pulled off the line and back to the tech people for some TLC. I just do not think kahr would box up a gun that fokked up in 24 rounds.

also, how many guns does ed brown make a day?? 2 maybe ??? Could also be that Ed Brown knows his guns require X number of rounds to get right and to save a owner from sending it back to soon, he just does the break in work and adds that to the price of his guns. Most all of the major gun makers don't have the time to do that when making hundreds of guns a day and in Rugers case thousands of guns a day. let alone the over all cost involved in firing that many rounds.

Kahr is not shooting 0-24 rounds to test for reliability as much as for groupings.

Jocko the manufacturers test the guns to insure that they function properly and stay together. It saves on liability law suits. My dad used to test fire every gun that he put together with what is known as blue pill loads.

[muggsy]

LOL Muggsy. You have to understand I really don't care what there critera is if a gun passes or fails it was just a passing thought nothing more. How could I possibly prove anything as being fact. So it really would be a waste of time now wouldn't it. I'm not buying another Kahr pistol and mine works fine. Thanks for your report of 4X6 and passing on what you were told. I'm sorry if you took offense to my reply as being anything personal. It wasn't meant to be, but as I said I'm not buying it.

Triggerman- Doesn't Ed Brown shoot 100? I honestly and truthfully couldn't say as I'm not there to see if he does or doesn't. I really think we're talking apples to oranges though when we're talking Ed Brown custom made 1911's pistols to Kahrs.

I didn't take offense, Popeye. I was just pulling your chain. No harm, no foul. I believe that the criteria for pass/fail is that the gun cycle through 24 rounds with zero malfunctions. Those that don't pass go back to the armor for repair. I also tend to believe that the failure rate is very low. Probably less than one percent.

[Popeye]

OK No problem on my end. Couldn't begin to tell you what there rate of failure would be. I have to wonder though when I see guys on the site with barrels that do not fit in slides properly and jam the slide back it does make me wonder at times what going on there as far as QC. It's certainly not anything I loose sleep over though. Like I said I like my PM9 and think it a great gun for being a mass produced product.

[ripley16]

I don't find the amount all that unusual. Some manufacturers shoot more, some less. The one gun maker I can remember directly answering that question is Larry Seecamp in this post on the Seecamp Forum...

Every .32 is test fired a minimum of two magazines and every .380 is fired a minimum of three magazines.

The ammunition we use varies among the recommended brands.

That's a lot of shooting considering it is all done by hand, no machine or rest used. My hand hurts just thinking about it. :33:

[Simms65]

My new CM9 had sticky preservative grease all over it when it came in this past week. I work at a gun shop, so I know no one else got it out of the box before it came to me. It was way too clean to have been fired 24 times without cleaning. It also ran 100% from round 1-300 this weekend (I've only fired 300 rounds through it total thus far). I'd imagine that if they are test firing them 24 times at the factory that they are at least spraying the guns off before they box and ship them.

[TriggerMan]

My new CM9 had sticky preservative grease all over it when it came in this past week. I work at a gun shop, so I know no one else got it out of the box before it came to me. It was way too clean to have been fired 24 times without cleaning. It also ran 100% from round 1-300 this weekend (I've only fired 300 rounds through it total thus far). I'd imagine that if they are test firing them 24 times at the factory that they are at least spraying the guns off before they box and ship them.
I think an equally likely theory would be they pull only one in ten guns for shooting those 24 rounds. Perhaps the others still get two or three rounds shot. We need a credible inside source. Justin?

[TriggerMan]

I never owned an Ed Brown, but I'm not about to argue with him. He a lot better shot than I am. :) An EB is more than I would spend. I have a better breakin process.

I bought a Dan Wesson CBOB...after the first owner put 800 rounds through. Saves me any break-in and is economically smarter. Bet I saved $400 plus range and ammo costs of $400, $800 total savings. Sweet!

[Popeye]

I think an equally likely theory would be they pull only one in ten guns for shooting those 24 rounds. Perhaps the others still get two or three rounds shot. We need a credible inside source. Justin?

This theory of taking a certain number of guns in a run and then testing them with a 24 round test makes sense. I don't remember having a used shell casing in my case when I bought the gun. I have in my other guns and I still have them. I looked in the Kahr case this morning and there is nothing there in the way of a spent case. One of those things that make you want to go Humm?

[Bawanna]

Ok here's the real skinny from person with first hand information who I will not divulge even if you drive bamboo under my finger nails. Cash bribes might be considered.

Guns returned for service are fired prior to repair to recreate the alleged failure. You would be surprised at how many guns work fine even when shooting the exact same ammo as the customer. In these cases, the customer is called directly by Kahr to better understand the problem. After repair, 4 mags are shot through guns to ensure proper function.
Those guns are not cleaned because most customers want to know they have been fired and have complained when they come back clean.

New guns are shot with the mags they are shipped with to ensure everything functions OK. New guns are cleaned after firing.

The above is the norm. Depending on the intermittency of the problem, I have seen gunsmiths put well over a 150 rounds through a gun in attempt to diagnose and fix the problem. Kahr does not skimp on ammo. They do whatever they can to resolve the customers firearm problem.
NOTHING goes out without being properly tested.

And there you have it.

[Longitude Zero]

Bawanna that makes sense. At the depts range I cannot recount how often the officer has a malfunction but NOBODY else on the line can get the weapon to do it for them. Sometimes I chock it up to a gun is cursed. HEHEHE

[Bawanna]

I had an officer with a Glock22? Is that the full size 40? Anyhow he had slide lock nearly every mag without failures, all sorts of issues. Instructors insisted that I replace everything in the gun to fix it.
I looked it over closely and nothing was wrong. I told them so. They insisted and I refused. Command staff loves me when I don't waste money.

I asked if they had him try another gun or if anyone else had tried his. Answer was no, sometimes we just have to replace everything.

Long story short I took the gun up to our range and there were a dozen or so neighboring deputies already there. I asked if they wanted to try and abuse a Glock to death. They of course were all up for that.
I think 11 of us shot it, like 500 rounds in less than an hour (I had lots of mags). I limp wristed it, I shot it upside down, I would have shot in water if there was any. Zero malfunctions.

Gave it back- first mag slide lock on about the third round. Move your thumb stupid, problem solved.

[ripley16]

This theory of taking a certain number of guns in a run and then testing them with a 24 round test makes sense. I don't remember having a used shell casing in my case when I bought the gun. I have in my other guns and I still have them. I looked in the Kahr case this morning and there is nothing there in the way of a spent case. One of those things that make you want to go Humm?

Not all states require a spent shell to be included, this is not a federal requirement. I'll willing to bet that if you lived in a state that did, then your new Kahr would have a spent shell included.

[Rodenmg]

That's interesting. I've never seen this before but I bought a PPK a couple weeks ago and there was a spent case in the box. I was wondering about that. :)

[jocko]

I don't think new guns are test fied 24 rounds, only the guns sent back for service. Bawanna's statement did not say new guns are shot 24 times minimum. I do believe that quite a few kahrs are sent back with the only issues beng "shooter" issues and not gun issues. I have said this before, when I khad my 3 kel teks and had tons of issues with all 3 of them, one day I was talking with a kt technician whom I got o know from sending my kt's back so manyt times, that he told me 50% of all their guns returned for problems had no problem and his comment was "how do u tell a owner it is hm and not the gun"??

I have no reason to think kahr would send back a defective gun once in for service. but we have read it on this forum numerous times. so it has happened and we have seen on this forum that expecialy in the P380 that some have went back 3 times even before kahr totally replaced the gun, so that in itself tells me that they do sometimes send back a repaired gun that is not repaired. IMO they would not replace a gun with a new one just BECAUSE either unless they could not get to the bottom of the issue.

Bottom line is I do think kahrs goes the extra miles to take care of owners, just sometimes things do not workout the way we always want them to.

[jocko]

[QUOTE=Bawanna;134260]I had an officer with a Glock22? Is that the full size 40? Anyhow he had slide lock nearly every mag without failures, all sorts of issues. Instructors insisted that I replace everything in the gun to fix it.
I looked it over closely and nothing was wrong. I told them so. They insisted and I refused. Command staff loves me when I don't waste money.

I asked if they had him try another gun or if anyone else had tried his. Answer was no, sometimes we just have to replace everything.

Long story short I took the gun up to our range and there were a dozen or so neighboring deputies already there. I asked if they wanted to try and abuse a Glock to death. They of course were all up for that.
I think 11 of us shot it, like 500 rounds in less than an hour (I had lots of mags). I limp wristed it, I shot it upside down, I would have shot in water if there was any. Zero malfunctions.


bawqanna, u just wanted to shoot that fella's gun on company ammo and time, #2 u should have known in advance THAT GLOCKS NEVER FAIL. How many times have u read that, u should know that by heart GLOCKS NEVER FAIL. Now repeat that 3 times to yourself, so u never make that mistake againj... It is always the shooters fault and in this case it certainly was. No one ever saide poli8ce officers have to be smart either:der:
Gave it back- first mag slide lock on about the third round. Move your thumb stupid, problem solved

[jocko]

That's interesting. I've never seen this before but I bought a PPK a couple weeks ago and there was a spent case in the box. I was wondering about that. :)

one when I bought my Smith M & P new and bought it from the same dealer that I bopuighht my PM9 from which had no shell casing. Maybe some companies do that when it is not mandatory to do so..

[Tinman507]

I bought a little Ruger SR22 a couple of weeks ago and it came with a spent casing in a little brown envelope with the test shooters signature on it.

Since I had to send it back for some issues, I wonder if Hector Gonzales gets to shoot it again?

[jocko]

no sh-t even on 22's even. Humm, I guess their reasonis they can backtrace it to the firng pin which is like a birthmark, course nobody told our government that firng pins can be bought like candy from the gun maker.

[Cokeman]

Does that include the p380's? I am skeptical of what he told you due to all the problems I read about on this forum. I have been told things by their cs that I found out wasn't quite true to put it politely

Haven't you noticed that people with P380 problems have those problems after they shoot 4 mags and the gun gets dirty?



There's no way the CW9 I got just before Christmas had been fired that much. Not only was it spotless but it was way too oily. At a casual glance it didn't look to have had a round through it.

That's one of the things Kahr cut out of the process that makes the CWs and CMs cheaper than the rest of the Kahrs. ;)

[JFootin]

That's one of the things Kahr cut out of the process that makes the CWs and CMs cheaper than the rest of the Kahrs. ;)

That's because they are so perfect they don't need to be test fired! :rolleyes:

[jocko]

kahr claimjs they clean all new gus before shipping them, so I do believe they test fire every gun that goes out the door, not a random sample. I have been told that before numerous times. Still does not mean an issue cannot arise, which we know it does. about the same thing for our gun makers to. I do feel they test fire all new guns going out the door..

[Popeye]

I don't think new guns are test fied 24 rounds, only the guns sent back for service. Bawanna's statement did not say new guns are shot 24 times minimum. .

This is what the orginal discussion was all about. Kahr shooting 24 rounds through every new gun. I have no problem believing Kahr does everything it can to make the customer happy on a pistol that is having problems. I have no problem believing older people, or people with weaker hands and wrist have problems shooting smaller pistols,not just Kahrs.
Look guys I love my PM9 it's a great gun, and I couldn't be happier. All I'm saying is when I hear things like barrels that do not fit slides properly, having to file mag releases because they go to far into the mag and hit the follower on it way up, followers cracking, mags developing spits in them over a short period of time, springs installed in mags backwards or upside down and now I hear that there test fired with these same mags when new? Then yes I do have some concerns and questions about the QC and pre test fireing of what exactly being shipped out the door originally. How could I not have a few questions.

Rilpley16 I did not know this about if it's required by some states but not others.
I didn't think the factory at that level knew or cared what state the gun was going to so they just put them in all the cases. I did open all my gun boxes yesterday and the only one that did not have a spent case in it was the PM9 even my little 22/45 Ruger had one in it. It clearly states what type of gun it is caliber serial # and the date it was shot ,who shot it and the casing put into and envelope. and sealed. Every gun I own has one spent shell with the exception of the RIA 1911 it has two spent rounds shipped with it.
I will say this though in all fairness my PM9 was bought as a used pistol. However it was bought by some older rich dude taken to the range in the back had the two mags shot through it and the owner decided he didn't like the recoil.
Gun shop owner says this sort of things happens all the time with this guy.
It never left the store it was shot and returned to it's original case right there. It could have fallen out but I doubt if it was taken out on purpose and not put back in. Heck the paper work that comes with the gun was never filled out or taken out of the plastic by anyone but me when I bought it. Which was the next day. I know this because the tape seal was never broken. The small padlock and pin that goes through the trigger lock was stll in it's original little white box. Like I've said many times on this site I thought the gun was new when I first looked at it and was shocked at the price and the fact that it had to be sold as a used pistol. I jumped all over it and put it on layaway (something I rarely do) as I knew this would not last on the shelf to long. Only problem was there was no spent round in the case and I thought there should have been for know other reason then to at least let me know when the gun was fired.

[JFootin]

kahr claimjs they clean all new gus before shipping them, so I do believe they test fire every gun that goes out the door, not a random sample. I have been told that before numerous times. Still does not mean an issue cannot arise, which we know it does. about the same thing for our gun makers to. I do feel they test fire all new guns going out the door..

Me, too. I was just ribbing Cokeman. :D

[jocko]

Popeye and I also do not know if they do not shoot the new guns 24 rounds either.

[jocko]

Popeye and I also do not know if they do not shoot the new guns 24 rounds either. I am going to assume they do not, I doubt if most gun makers do that many rounds on new guns, and also we do not know that when they do test fire if an issues arises if it is pulled off the line (which it should be) asnd further evualation is done on it. We do know things get through that are not right, but most gun makers are not exempt from that scenario either. I am betting that this magazine splitting thing is going to be a thing of the past-= real soon.

[Popeye]

Jocko, Not that it effects me personally, mine are fine,but I hope they do get the mag problems fixed real soon. It has got to be very frustrating for a new gun owner expecting a quality firearm to have to go through that. With the new Nano on the market and the very real possiblity of S/A coming out with a slimmed down single stack version of the XD9 in the near future they better, or potential kahr owners will go elsewhere if the problems still persist. I've never owned a Beretta, but I have owned and XD, and they are very fine guns and if they would have had a single stack 9mm when was looking for one I would have not looked any farther and bought it. I mentioned many times that the Kahr PM9 feels like a little brother to the XD9sc. Ergo's are very similiar just the PM9 is smaller. Take a PM9 and lay it on top of a XD9sc and you'll see exactly what I'm saying. Having owned both I find both are excellent pistols and I never personally had a single problem with either one. So yes, I do hope Kahr gets there mag problem straightened out as I personally do like there pistols. A lot and have recommended them to many.

[Tilos]

Some car makers test run engines on propane and don't see why something could not be designed to mimic firing to test a gun.

Perhaps something inserted into the barrel and sealed, with a blast of compressed air against the breach face to work the action.
Of course this would not test feeding or mag function but would identify the current slide binding failure that seems to have cropped up.
Sorry just the engineer in me bubbling up.
Tilos

[pocket pistol]

I don't doubt Kahr does a test fire... I wish they would include the spent case with their pistol. I kind of missed this on my CM9.

I'm not complaining though... I got a heck of a pistol. I love this little Kahr.

[jocko]

Some car makers test run engines on propane and don't see why something could not be designed to mimic firing to test a gun.

Perhaps something inserted into the barrel and sealed, with a blast of compressed air against the breach face to work the action.
Of course this would not test feeding or mag function but would identify the current slide binding failure that seems to have cropped up.
Sorry just the engineer in me bubbling up.
Tilos

Porsche engine is test run in Germany for 30 minutes at 7000 rpm redline before it even goes into the car and yet after I had my porshe with less than 600 miles on it, the damn car would start but not run. SH-T happens and yes I would buy another Porsche again..

[Tilos]

pocket pistol:
Sorry to hear you didn't get an empty case included with your gun:(.

You can always make one, yourself:yo:.

[CJB]

Ok here's the real skinny from person with first hand information who I will not divulge even if you drive bamboo under my finger nails. Cash bribes might be considered.

Guns returned for service are fired prior to repair to recreate the alleged failure. You would be surprised at how many guns work fine even when shooting the exact same ammo as the customer. In these cases, the customer is called directly by Kahr to better understand the problem. After repair, 4 mags are shot through guns to ensure proper function.
Those guns are not cleaned because most customers want to know they have been fired and have complained when they come back clean.

New guns are shot with the mags they are shipped with to ensure everything functions OK. New guns are cleaned after firing.

The above is the norm. Depending on the intermittency of the problem, I have seen gunsmiths put well over a 150 rounds through a gun in attempt to diagnose and fix the problem. Kahr does not skimp on ammo. They do whatever they can to resolve the customers firearm problem.
NOTHING goes out without being properly tested.

And there you have it.

All I got to say, is that guy who's comin' in on the night shift, and cleaning all the pistols they made that day - DON'T QUIT YER DAY JOB!!!!!

Seriously, ain't no way my new PM45 was cleaned as new. And it had the same nasty black (looked like lead to me..., no matter what they say) streaks in the barrel when I got it back from repair. So new, and repaired, same full length black streaks.

I think the reality is more like common sense:

A. Casual cleaning at best. Certainly not thorough cleaning.

B. Some new pistols may be shot more than others, because they had to get some rework. Circumstance "A" (above) applies to some extent.

C. Repaired pistols may have extensive firing. Circumstance "A" (above) does not apply.

and

Going back to the event that triggered this discussion, the other point of contention was barrel wear... folks, c'mon... depending on the roughness or parts, the fit, tolerances, etc, you may see parts rubbing more, or not. I'm sure some show a wear pattern sooner (its only nickle plating after all) and some show a wear pattern later. No rhyme or reason, other than parts and finish do vary a little.