Got the P45 back from Kahr...Doesn't look good.

[In-Yo-Grill]

Well it seems we are back to square one. I sent my Kahr off for having too many FTE's.

As expected their CS has been great and Ian is on top of his game. Two days after I called FedEx picked up the gun and it was returned a week later.

Unfortunately they didn't fix the problem. In fact it's worse than it was when I sent it in. Still, I understand that it can be a process so I'm going to be patient. Here's the pics from yesterday's trip to the range. Starting from right to left are the three 50rnd sessions I shot and the amount of FTE's that came from each one.

Oh, and on the last round of 50 I did get one FTF with a light primer strike. I waited...reinserted the round in the mag and it fired without a problem.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Fresh2Salt/My%20Guns/P2020007.jpg

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Fresh2Salt/My%20Guns/P2020009.jpg

Is it me or does the ejector look like it's a little rounded off on the right side?

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Fresh2Salt/My%20Guns/P2020011.jpg

I put 150rnds through it yesterday for a total of 850 since I got the gun. I didn't clean it after it came back from Kahr. Should this have made a difference? Should I give it another trip to the range before sending it back? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Now for some good news...

I took my newly acquired CW9 with me and put a 100rnds through it. Absolutely flawless through each and every round.

[ripley16]

I've never seen any pistol deform ejecting rounds to that degree. Were all of those cases crushed by being caught by the recycling slide?

[In-Yo-Grill]

I've never seen any pistol deform ejecting rounds to that degree. Were all of those cases crushed by being caught by the recycling slide?

Yes sir...the ones pictured were all crushed as they got jammed inside the slide before ejecting.

[In-Yo-Grill]

Let me give a little more background as to how I went about testing the gun yesterday.

I fired a 150rnds in 5-shot increments. As you can see from the pics I shot the S&B ammo first followed up by a 100rnd box of WWB. All ball ammo.

I wore shooting gloves as to make sure I was not lim-wristing the gun. I actually enjoyed shooting with the gloves and may do this more often. Every round felt solid with each pull of the trigger.

Lastly, to make sure it wasn't just me I asked two other guys at the range to shoot a 5-shot session. They both experienced FTE's as I did.

At this point I'm at a loss for what to do other than send it back again.

[Vinikahr]

Sorry to hear the situation, the matter of the fact that the PM45 pistol for one have a very stiff recoil spring and will definitely will need more time for stretching and powerful loads should be use to cycle that slide(Wally ammo not the best for this task) and the second issue is that the 45 ACP is a huge bullet trying to cycle to the short feed ramp, reason for my rationale for a GAP 45 in other thread I posted.

http://ingunowners.com/forums/avatars/handk49031.gif?type=sigpic&dateline=1237843354

[jocko]

wwb from wally world is no different than wwb from gander or cabelas. It is good stuff, it should definitely work OK. It is not special made cheap ammo made for Wal mart. More than likely the gun is going to have to go back. Your brass casing look like hell to me. almost like the slide is not cycling fully and timing is part of any semi.

[In-Yo-Grill]

I have put lesser ammo through it before but this time I stared with the S&B ammo which is good stuff. Jocko gave me a few suggestions I'll try out before sending it back.

I'm not worried. I'm sure they will take care of me if/when the time comes. I'm just in such a hurry to get the kinks worked out so I can start carrying this gun.

[jwr]

I'm no expert, and don't even get to play one on tv, but I had similar issues recently with a different firearm and it turned out to be an overly tight extractor--apparently holding the casing just a hair too long from what I understand.

It was a 1911 style extractor though and the fix was simply to relax the tension a bit. I don't know how you would do that with a Kahr style extractor.

I also agree that it should be able to run fine with WWB ammo. If all the P45's had similar issues we'd be hearing about it.

[jeep45238]

NOT normal - send it back.

You may want to request that they send you back a new gun with the same s/n - other manufacturers have been willing to do this in the past.

Sometimes it's just better to start off with a clean slate.

[Dobieman]

Your ejector does look rounded off compared to my CW45 ejector. I only have about 400 rounds through my new CW however.

Sorry man, I know your frustrated. I would be. :(

[jocko]

NOT normal - send it back.

You may want to request that they send you back a new gun with the same s/n - other manufacturers have been willing to do this in the past.

Sometimes it's just better to start off with a clean slate.

has told me numerous times that it is illegal to reserialize another gun with the same number. I know kel tec has done it before but I don't know of any other company that has done it. they claim that serial number follows that gun right to its grave and never to be reissued again.

they will not replace his gun IMO and for sure if they did, it would have to go to a ffl dealer and not back to his home address as a normal warranty repair could do for it would have to be reregistered under the new serial numbers..

I know ruger with their lcp, if they have to replace their numbered alloy inner frame, will not duplicate the same serial number, so I trust what kahr is telling me to be true.

It would make sense to be able to do that but as kahr told me, they don't make the laws, they just abide by them..

[jocko]

I'm no expert, and don't even get to play one on tv, but I had similar issues recently with a different firearm and it turned out to be an overly tight extractor--apparently holding the casing just a hair too long from what I understand.

It was a 1911 style extractor though and the fix was simply to relax the tension a bit. I don't know how you would do that with a Kahr style extractor.

I also agree that it should be able to run fine with WWB ammo. If all the P45's had similar issues we'd be hearing about it.

Reverend Jim K had extractor issues with his P9 and did some mod work on his extractor to solve his issue. indeed one could have a bad extractor with to tight of tolerance betweent he extractor and breech face but again. Kahr would know more about that than the normal joe would. I think the gun is going to have to go back to the mother ship. I would not recommend touching the extractor unless you have some very good knowledge of the workings of the kahr extractor system..If it indeed extractor related, then it has a bad extractor and let kahr fix it..

[jeep45238]

New serial number or not, it's looking like there's a tolerance stack up on that particular unit that is not acceptable - I'd be asking for a new gun, keep the old one.

[recoilguy]

I certianly don't have the patiences you do. After the first 5 casing that looked like that I would be done. I certianaly would have never put 150 rounds through with the results you had. Totally unacceptable.

I would want it fixed or replaced, when you pay that money for the gun you shouldn't have to tolerate that kind of results or be the one who makes it right.

On the brighter side the CW9 is working great......thats good news. The CW9 is a very nice weapon. Enjoy it.

RCG

[jocko]

New serial number or not, it's looking like there's a tolerance stack up on that particular unit that is not acceptable - I'd be asking for a new gun, keep the old one.

hurts to ask but I seriously doubt if that will happen. if there is something wrong with the slide, they will repalce it, if it is a bad extractor (which we are just now assuming with no proof of it at all) they will indeed replace the extracor. I seriously doubtif it has anything to do with the lower grip area which carries the serial number. Other than the number grip every part is replaceable and will be able to be sent back to the owners home..

[mr surveyor]

would it hurt to ask for a replacement extractor? It's not that difficult to swap out, while also doing a full detail stripping/cleaning of the upper. That would be a whole lot less expense in shipping and analyzing.

surv

[ltxi]

That's exactly what my MK9 was doing....high percentage of FTEs and badly deformed case mouths. Plus it was pitching most brass straight back. New ejector fixed the problem. Apparently, ejector length is a bit critical.

[fitzgood]

wwb from wally world is no different than wwb from gander or cabelas. It is good stuff, it should definitely work OK. It is not special made cheap ammo made for Wal mart. More than likely the gun is going to have to go back. Your brass casing look like hell to me. almost like the slide is not cycling fully and timing is part of any semi.

+1

If it won't shoot WWB, I would not count on it to shoot any SD ammo. I would send that gun back. It might get better with more shooting, but it is not going to go from here to 100% reliable no matter how much ammo (= your $) you run through it.

[jocko]

would it hurt to ask for a replacement extractor? It's not that difficult to swap out, while also doing a full detail stripping/cleaning of the upper. That would be a whole lot less expense in shipping and analyzing.

surv

indeed, very easy to swap out and would save alot of time ane espense and I know kahr would send him one to save them time and money also...

[GOOFA]

has told me numerous times that it is illegal to reserialize another gun with the same number. I know kel tec has done it before but I don't know of any other company that has done it. they claim that serial number follows that gun right to its grave and never to be reissued again.

they will not replace his gun IMO and for sure if they did, it would have to go to a ffl dealer and not back to his home address as a normal warranty repair could do for it would have to be reregistered under the new serial numbers..

I know ruger with their lcp, if they have to replace their numbered alloy inner frame, will not duplicate the same serial number, so I trust what kahr is telling me to be true.

It would make sense to be able to do that but as kahr told me, they don't make the laws, they just abide by them..
Recently, Ruger replaced my LCP and I was given the choice of a new series 373 prefix which they would send out immediately or I could keep my 370 prefix serial # but it would take longer because they have to set up the build time. I opted for to keep my original serial #. This way they sent it straight to my home and I didn't have to re-register the LCP which saved me some time and money.

[In-Yo-Grill]

Thanks for all the input guys. Believe it or not frustration isn't an issue. I trust Kahr will make it right.

When I sent it in the last time the Tech Service Work Sheet stated that they "Replaced the barrel and ejector. Polished parts as needed. Lubed it and test fired as good."

I'll probably get it sent back next week and let them work their magic...again.

[Vinikahr]

Thanks for all the input guys. Believe it or not frustration isn't an issue. I trust Kahr will make it right.

When I sent it in the last time the Tech Service Work Sheet stated that they "Replaced the barrel and ejector. Polished parts as needed. Lubed it and test fired as good."

I'll probably get it sent back next week and let them work their magic...again.

Do not feel bad or even frustrated, out of my three Kahr the only one that had went out to the mother-ship was CW45 and it went to a minor issue (at least to some) of the magazine not drooping freely, they did not corrected the issue of the first time, so it went out for a second time. The turnaround was super fast. I am perfectionist and don't mind paying a premium for a product that will perform, so I expect the manufactured to cover me 100%. Things happens and not everything things go well. Best of luck and keep us posted.

http://ingunowners.com/forums/avatars/handk49031.gif?type=sigpic&dateline=1237843354

[Vincent]

I do not know if it is still that way but a manufacturer used to be able to reproduce a serial number as long as the original firearm is destroyed. T/C did this for me on a Contender.

[jocko]

I do not know if it is still that way but a manufacturer used to be able to reproduce a serial number as long as the original firearm is destroyed. T/C did this for me on a Contender.

thouht that was true to,but kahr has tomd me in no uncertain terms that a serial number lives and dies with that gun only. No new gun can be lableed withthe same serialnumber. I have asked that of ruger also and they have have told me the same thing.

Iknow kel tec use dto replace a bad gun with the same serial number, I would have thought they would have known the right way also. so go figure????

[Jim K]

Here is a quick check:

Strip the slide from the pistol.
Remove the barrel.
Slide a cartridge case under the extractor, up from the bottom.

The cartridge case should slide easily under the extractor.

Make sure the case is seated against the breech face of the slide.

View the extractor from the bottom against a light background.

The foward, beveled edge of the extractor should not interfere with the beveled edge of the extraction groove in the cartridge case.

Next, take a pencil and tip the case towards the ejection poort of the slide. There should be no hang ups.

Make sure there is enough room in the breech slot of the slide to allow the cartridge to tip out towards the ejection port. Maybe some guy in the machine shop was having a bad day.

Check the ejector to make sure it is not set too low in the frame. Make sure it is secure.


Good Luck, Jim K (AKA Rev.)

[In-Yo-Grill]

Here is a quick check:

Strip the slide from the pistol.
Remove the barrel.
Slide a cartridge case under the extractor, up from the bottom.

The cartridge case should slide easily under the extractor.

Make sure the case is seated against the breech face of the slide.

View the extractor from the bottom against a light background.

The foward, beveled edge of the extractor should not interfere with the beveled edge of the extraction groove in the cartridge case.

Next, take a pencil and tip the case towards the ejection poort of the slide. There should be no hang ups.

Make sure there is enough room in the breech slot of the slide to allow the cartridge to tip out towards the ejection port. Maybe some guy in the machine shop was having a bad day.

Check the ejector to make sure it is not set too low in the frame. Make sure it is secure.


Good Luck, Jim K (AKA Rev.)

What exactly does that last part mean? The ejector I show in the picture above was loose in my opinion. I could take my finger and move it to the right and it would spring back to position.

[jeep45238]

The ejector is the part in the frame that knocks the brass out of the slide and extractor. The extractor is spring loaded and should return to it's position. The ejector is fixed and shouldn't move much.

[mr surveyor]

*post removed*

[In-Yo-Grill]

The ejector would pivot in towards the middle of the body and spring back. I've checked a couple of the other Kahrs I own and they have a little play as well.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Fresh2Salt/My%20Guns/P2020011_Ejector.jpg

[jocko]

mine does to and I see no issue there..

[In-Yo-Grill]

mine does to and I see no issue there..

The inside of that ejector does look rounded though. All of my other Kahrs have a sharp flat front across the ejector.

[Jim K]

What exactly does that last part mean? The ejector I show in the picture above was loose in my opinion. I could take my finger and move it to the right and it would spring back to position.

I should have worded my post better. The ejector should be secure in a way that it can not take a nose dive below the frame rails. I think that lateral play is normal providing the ejector does not interfere with the slide.

The cocking cam spring should keep the ejector pushed to the side of the frame. I doubt lateral play will cause your problem.

If you cannot find something conclusive, send it back with a few of your mangled cartridge cases. If the folks at Kahr don' t fix it this time I think they should provide you with a new, (not recycled) pistol.

Jim K.

[Bawanna]

I chime in with Mr. Jim K. Throw a handful of them mangled cases in with the gun for Kahr to look at. Suspect they'll get r fixed this time around.

[In-Yo-Grill]

I should have worded my post better. The ejector should be secure in a way that it can not take a nose dive below the frame rails. I think that lateral play is normal providing the ejector does not interfere with the slide.

The cocking cam spring should keep the ejector pushed to the side of the frame. I doubt lateral play will cause your problem.

If you cannot find something conclusive, send it back with a few of your mangled cartridge cases. If the folks at Kahr don' t fix it this time I think they should provide you with a new, (not recycled) pistol.

Jim K.

I didn't think about it but you guys have a point. I'm going to send a few casings so they can see how bad they are.

[jocko]

The inside of that ejector does look rounded though. All of my other Kahrs have a sharp flat front across the ejector.

that in ur photo. I have over 25,000 rounds out of my PM9 and the ejector looks totally new. I would say if u send the gun back indeed send the damaged worst casings and make note to look at the wear on the ejector also. I could see how that could be over looked even.

If one shot stell cased ammo alot, I could understand some noticeable wear on the ejector but in your case that was not true.

Lateral play on the ejector is normal. UP and down play is not.. as rev. Jim K stated..

[madwill]

i hope they get it straightened out for you.

[Thunderbolt47]

You definitely have a timing problem. There are four components to the issue that I see: 1) Recoil spring power, 2) Ejector length, 3) Very sharp corners on the inside edges of the ejection port, 4) Low clearance between the barrel hood and the ejection port.

I had a serious issue with my P45 in that I could not clear an loaded round due to #2, 3 & 4 above, as well as the damaged brass issue. I solved that problem, and an issue where the slide would not strip rounds #2 & 3 from the magazine (any magazine) by polishing the inside edges of the ejection port (fwd inboard vertical and inboard horizontal -- DO NOT touch the locking corner = forward horizontal lower edge), and changing the recoil spring to a lighter one.

The ejector could be slightly shortened also, but I would do this last...

WARNING: DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!! Your mileage may vary...

[In-Yo-Grill]

You definitely have a timing problem. There are four components to the issue that I see: 1) Recoil spring power, 2) Ejector length, 3) Very sharp corners on the inside edges of the ejection port, 4) Low clearance between the barrel hood and the ejection port.

I had a serious issue with my P45 in that I could not clear an loaded round due to #2, 3 & 4 above, as well as the damaged brass issue. I solved that problem, and an issue where the slide would not strip rounds #2 & 3 from the magazine (any magazine) by polishing the inside edges of the ejection port (fwd inboard vertical and inboard horizontal -- DO NOT touch the locking corner = forward horizontal lower edge), and changing the recoil spring to a lighter one.

The ejector could be slightly shortened also, but I would do this last...

WARNING: DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!! Your mileage may vary...

I'm am turning into a gun nut but am in my infancy so I don't know much at all. It's back at the mothership right now being worked on.