Breakin' the Law....

[TheTman]

I went to a concert last night in the Downtown area of the neighboring mid sized city. Downtown is not the best place to be after dark, so I took my Charter Arms and put the Barami Hip Grips on it and stuck it right down the very front of my pants and hooked the clip behind my belt buckle. I figured 5 shots of .44 special was better than none.
I got frisked as I entered the building but they didn't pat down the area the gun was tucked, and they asked if I had any weapons, and I said something that sounded like "no" ("Doh") and went on in. I don't see why just because they have a concert that I have to give up my 2nd admendment right to see a show, particularly when it's in a bad part of town. Anyway, I was glad I was armed after the show, going back to the car, some unsavory types were hanging around and I had transferred my weapon into my coat pocket and was ready for whatever. Thankfully no one bothered us and we made it to the car uneventfully. Anyway, those Barami Hip Grips are nice for times you want to be armed but aren't supposed to be. Normally at other facilities, I do leave the gun in the car, but not downtown.
Had they found the gun, the most they could do was ask me to leave. BTW, I looked, they did NOT have the No Guns sign posted. At least not where I could see it. I did a review on our conceal carry laws, and that was not a prohibited place or anything. They just have a thing about people being armed at shows here, which is BS, since so many of them are downtown.

[RodeoX]

I hear what your saying, but second amendment rights do not extend to private property. The issue is their property, their rules. Too bad that some of the places where carrying makes to most sense are the most restrictive.

[TheTman]

What bothered me was their was no "No Guns" signs posted, so I didn't feel that bad about sneaking in my pistol. Now if they were going to provide me with armed escort back to my car after the show, I'd gladly have left my gun in the car. But no, you're on your own in a not so good neighborhood, where junkies and crackheads are known to hang out.

[RodeoX]

Perhaps your not breaking the law? If I remember correctly here in Wisconsin a business MUST post a no guns sign at each entrance and exit.
You have given me an idea. What if i make up a legal contract to take responsibility for my personal safety? Then when I'm at a store with a sign, I'll see if the manager will sign it. :)

[jocko]

I don't think u broke any law but the business has the absolute right to tellyou no entry with a gun andif they find one on u, they cold boot u out of the concert with no retrun priveldges. A chance one takes. I walk in a large mall and on every entry way wall there is a rules of the mall and one of them isno firearms. Beenb walkig there for year with my PM9 in my front pocket. At the worst I would be asked to leave the story. I never even worry about it. If I new every day every mall person was going to be searched, I would not carry then, but they just do not do that in malls for they would loose business pronto. Malls are struggling the way it is, further harassement to 99% who do not carry would not go well. I went to a Reba concert in Indy about a year ago and had my PM9 on my not thinkingthey would check and damn they had a guy body searching at the gate. I was wearng at the time my 5.11 black holster shirt under my sweater. he never even noticed and went for my waist band and ankles. It would have been a long walk back to the car though. there was no signs posted tha tI could see, but I was later told it is concert policy. I can understandthat, I may not agree with it. It is not the concert part that bugs me it isthe walk back to the vehicle at midnight . Thats when I want my protection..

[Bawanna]

While I never endorse breaking a law and have full respect for a business owners property and what they see as a reasonable rule however misguided it might be, I totally endorse bending the heck out of the law or rule when it comes to personal and family safety. Common sense takes precedence over the law in my book.

I have no issue with not going someplace. If I know a particular event they are going to not allow guns it's a simple thing for me. I'm staying home. My wife always wants to go places, I'm perfectly content at home where guns are allowed and recommended.

[jocko]

yes but ur an ol foggy bawanna!!!

[muggsy]

yes but ur an ol foggy bawanna!!!

Do you know how Bawanna got to be an old foggy, Jocko? Buy not messing with any old foggys. Take that as a word of advice from an old foggy. :)

[jocko]

indeed I have that stored in my wondering brain.. course some of the wisest people I have meet would be condisered an old foggy , as u know most old foggy's have been there done that sh-t.

[LMT42]

Isn't it illegal in most states to carry anywhere that alcohol is served?

My local range doesn't allow anyone to enter with a loaded gun (CC or otherwise). I understand there are a lot of idiots in this world, but it still seems rather hypocritical to me.

[mr surveyor]

Isn't it illegal in most states to carry anywhere that alcohol is served?

Not in my state!
My local range doesn't allow anyone to enter with a loaded gun (CC or otherwise). I understand there are a lot of idiots in this world, but it still seems rather hypocritical to me.

not the rules at my range



I love where I live:)

[ltxi]

Isn't it illegal in most states to carry anywhere that alcohol is served?............


No...

[LMT42]

I love where I live:)

I live in Texas, too. The below is hard to interpret re half their revenue from alcohol sales, but I'd think a concert would apply in Texas.

"The law also specifically prohibits handguns from businesses where alcohol is sold if more than half of their revenue is from the sale of alcohol for on premises consumption, and from locations where high school, college, or professional sporting events are taking place."

[bboswell]

I live in Texas, too. The below is hard to interpret re half their revenue from alcohol sales, but I'd think a concert would apply in Texas.

"The law also specifically prohibits handguns from businesses where alcohol is sold if more than half of their revenue is from the sale of alcohol for on premises consumption, and from locations where high school, college, or professional sporting events are taking place."

True but said businesses are required to post a 51% sign.

[mr surveyor]

LMT42

The "51%" law is NOT hard to interpret. Most restruants (not all) serve beer, wine, and some serve mixed drinks. Unless they make more than 50% (law stipulates 51%) of their total revenue from sales of alcoholic beverages the carrying (lawful) of handguns is not prohibited. If they post the "big ugly sign" (section 30.06) properly, you have been given proper notice that they as private property owners do not want concealed handguns on their property, but that applies to any/all privately owned property/business, regardless of what they sell. If you casually check a resturants liqour license (usually stapled to the wall in the hall to the "can", you can see immediately if they are a "51% establishment" ... if they have the proper TABC sign. If the sign has red lettering with a big red "51%" logo in the center, they are (if the proper sign in the first place) off limits to concealed carry. If the sign in Blue, the only sinage they are required to post is the "unlicensed possession of a firearm....." sign, which does NOT affect licensed concealed carry.

The issue of an entity posting 30.06 at any event can be dicey depending on the location. Technically, government owned property, i.e. city, county, state, can NOT be posted 30.06 unless certain requirements are met. Professional sporting events and organized school events (like high school football in a municipally owned stadium) would certainly be off limits without the signage. Gun shows in Texas are prime examples of gray area violations of CHL holders rights. Most gun shows are held in city/county owned facilities and are not posted with the "big ugly sign", although they all post the "no loaded firearms" warning and require you to be checked (verbally at least) at the door for compliance. As far as I know, there have been no "test cases" to actually try these conditions.

As for the "concert" thing.... I'd doubt that they would come close to making 51% of their revenue from the sale of alcohol, even it were applicable as a legal block to a licensed carrier.


surv

p.s. so as not to get banned for sharing a link to another gun related website, if you're interested I'll PM you a link to a Texas specific website that you can find answers to just about any Texas CHL issue

[CJB]

Florida -

Signs are meaningless. The most they can do is ask you to leave IF you somehow divulge you are carrying a weapon. Don't divulge!

Alcohol - "that portion of an establishment" - making most of its business from sellin' booz to be consumed on the premises. Roughly interpreted as - if you're at a table, and they serve food in the place, you're ok. Don't belly up to the bar, even to eat at the bar.

[apheod]

Was it a Judas Priest concert?

It's not illegal to carry into a drinking establishment in Kansas. It is illegal if you blow over .08 or if you have been drinking, are under the limit but the cop thinks you're being a jackass.

[TheTman]

No, wasn't Judas Priest, I don't think I could take that noise anymore. It was 86 year old BB King. He told stories as much as he played, but was cool to see a guy that age still performing. I'd rather take a chance on getting kicked out of a concert, than wander around downtown unarmed in the middle of the night.

[RodeoX]

Here the law is that you can carry in an establishment that serves alcohol, but you can't drink. The weird part is that you can have up to .8 blood alcohol, same as driving. So I could drink a beer, strap on a gun and head out to a bar. This is an important part of the law. With a zero tolerance rule one could not use cold medicine or any other products with trace amounts or alcohol.

[Popeye]

Sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do. Suppose something did happen and you wearn't prepared to handle the situation. How bad would you be kickin your own a**?

[mr surveyor]

Here the law is that you can carry in an establishment that serves alcohol, but you can't drink. The weird part is that you can have up to .8 blood alcohol, same as driving. So I could drink a beer, strap on a gun and head out to a bar. This is an important part of the law. With a zero tolerance rule one could not use cold medicine or any other products with trace amounts or alcohol.



and what state would that be?

[TheTman]

In Kansas you can carry into a plain ole bar. You can drink up to .08 BAC.
I was surprised that pain/anxiety/and some other medications are legal as long as you're on the prescribed dosage. (A friend needs quite a bit or pain medications for major back and neck damage, but he got his permit ok, and checked to make sure it was ok to carry while being on his meds.) Street junkies and such and habitual drunkards are not permitted to possess a firearm, let alone have a CC permit.

[Tinman507]

Street junkies and such and habitual drunkards are not permitted to possess a firearm, let alone have a CC permit.

Yeah but they sure do have firearms. We need more gun control.

[getsome]

Ya gotta love Florida, not only can you legally carry in a business selling nothing but alcohol, you can even get your frozen daiquiri to go from the drive through window...Now how great is that!!!!...:cool:

[RodeoX]

and what state would that be?
Wisconsin. As a side note, the law changed after my CC training. Originally one could drink in a bar up to .08 blood alcohol.

[1radman]

In Virginia we can CC in an establishment that serves alcohol but we cannot consume it. Not sure about the BAC level...but I do try to stay sober if I'm carrying.

[Indigo]

Isn't it illegal in most states to carry anywhere that alcohol is served?

My local range doesn't allow anyone to enter with a loaded gun (CC or otherwise). I understand there are a lot of idiots in this world, but it still seems rather hypocritical to me.

I was thinking of hypocritical things earlier today. My 8 year old daughter decided to broadcast to my anti gun parents while in a restaurant that I was carrying not sure who heard and who didn't. Anti gun people don't like guns because "guns kill people". However, I was surrounded by people cramming their mouths full of heart stopping cheese, liver-killing alcohol, then likely getting in their body-smashing 2 ton autos on the way out. I tried to reason with my parents that although I was carrying for protection at the moment I also enjoy shooting targets as sport, just like football, where you can ask Dan Utley how dangerous that sport can be, or baseball, where i forget the name but a player was killed in MLB long ago by an errant pitch in the head and from time to time little leaguers have been killed taking a ball in the chest. Basically the main premise of baseball is quite similar in that play starts when the pitcher hurls a projectile toward another person as hard as he can. Or ask Dale Earnhardt and someone else can't remember about the dangers of racing. So yes guns kill people, but they are also part of sports that can kill people just as easily. Hypocrites. All of them.

[nksmfamjp]

My local range doesn't allow anyone to enter with a loaded gun (CC or otherwise). I understand there are a lot of idiots in this world, but it still seems rather hypocritical to me.

I won't go to the range without. There has been more than one guy rent a gun to commit suicide at the indoor ranges around here. I don't want someone to rent a gun to have fun gunning down the people on the firing line for fun. I carry at any range I go to anymore.

[crazymailman]

In NC I can't even legally carry into Applebee's or anywhere that serves alcohol at all. The law stipulates that you can't carry and consume any alcohol at all. But here, you can't even have a meal and carry.:crazy:

[CJB]

Ya gotta love Florida, not only can you legally carry in a business selling nothing but alcohol, you can even get your frozen daiquiri to go from the drive through window...Now how great is that!!!!...:cool:

I know you were joking - but I'll clarify for those with no sense of humor.

Alcohol only establishment - no.
Alcohol and food establishment - yes, but dont sit "at the bar", even to eat.
Frozen daiquiri to go in the drive thru - yes, but only for 1/2 hour preceding rush hour, and 1/2 hour after rush hour, Monday thru Friday.

[jdlott74]

Here the law is that you can carry in an establishment that serves alcohol, but you can't drink. The weird part is that you can have up to .8 blood alcohol, same as driving. So I could drink a beer, strap on a gun and head out to a bar. This is an important part of the law. With a zero tolerance rule one could not use cold medicine or any other products with trace amounts or alcohol.

Why would you drink and carry in the first place. That is just NOT good common sense.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

[jdlott74]

In NC I can't even legally carry into Applebee's or anywhere that serves alcohol at all. The law stipulates that you can't carry and consume any alcohol at all. But here, you can't even have a meal and carry.:crazy:

LOL.... That is funny. You can carry just not get caught. Carrying and drinking is just DUMB.

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[jocko]

we can carry ih a bar, so I guess they assume ur gonna drink also..

[RodeoX]

Why would you drink and carry in the first place. That is just NOT good common sense.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk
Agreed. I do drink and carry, just not at the same time.

[jdlott74]

Agreed. I do drink and carry, just not at the same time.

We are the same way....

[ltxi]

Well, sorry...or not...I do both within limits and make no apologies for it.

[CootShooter]

I don't know where I stand on this issue yet. I feel that I will be carrying to protect myself. Most of these events would be places that I would feel more of a need to protect myself.

But in Wisconsin, "A person may be subject to a Class B forfeiture if he or she carries a firearm on the property after being notified not to remain on the property" - Wis. Stat. § 943.13(1m)(b)

Class B forfeiture = "not to exceed $1000" - I don't think I would risk it.

(btw, my CCL is in the mail so I haven't conceal carried as of yet)

[Armybrat]

I won't go to the range without. There has been more than one guy rent a gun to commit suicide at the indoor ranges around here. I don't want someone to rent a gun to have fun gunning down the people on the firing line for fun. I carry at any range I go to anymore.

I hear you.

A few weeks ago a guy killed himself at the local indoor range I frequent north of Austin. I had been shootin' there the week before. :eek:

Pretty scary - there have been 3 suicides by handguns in my extended family over the past 4 years (one was a female police officer with a debilitating disease, another was an in-law with health issues, and the 3rd was just a depressed loser).

[Armybrat]

Well, sorry...or not...I do both within limits and make no apologies for it.

I will have a drink or two with my restaurant dinner. But I weigh in at well over 3 bills, so that amount of alcohol ingested in two hours doesn't even register in my head.

[TriggerMan]

I will have a drink or two with my restaurant dinner. But I weigh in at well over 3 bills, so that amount of alcohol ingested in two hours doesn't even register in my head.
In Michigan, we can't CC into a bar or any establishment where the majority of revenue comes from alcohol sold by the glass. I am told by an attorney, that police say they know a bar when they see one and I should too. I am OK in Applebees but I make sure to sit only in the dining area. Even at 224 lbs, I am told that one drink could take me over the CC BAL of .008. Legally impared is .08, drunk is .10 An 8 with two zeroes in frnt of it isn't much. I like my CPL more than I do my beer or wine.

[MO_Soldier]

I live in Texas, too. The below is hard to interpret re half their revenue from alcohol sales, but I'd think a concert would apply in Texas.

"The law also specifically prohibits handguns from businesses where alcohol is sold if more than half of their revenue is from the sale of alcohol for on premises consumption, and from locations where high school, college, or professional sporting events are taking place."

I love Missouri. Missouri state law agrees with virtually all of the laws and restrictions listed before me, plus more. However, as a CCW holder, only ONE applies to me. No alcohol while using a firearm.

EDIT: However, if you have drank and shoot in self defense, you aren't punishable for any violation committed in the protection of your life, another's life, or to stop a felonious act. So along the "don't get caught" lines.

[Armybrat]

In Michigan, we can't CC into a bar or any establishment where the majority of revenue comes from alcohol sold by the glass. I am told by an attorney, that police say they know a bar when they see one and I should too. I am OK in Applebees but I make sure to sit only in the dining area. Even at 224 lbs, I am told that one drink could take me over the CC BAL of .008. Legally impared is .08, drunk is .10 An 8 with two zeroes in frnt of it isn't much. I like my CPL more than I do my beer or wine.

The carry law here in Texas has the same proviso, but we can sit in the restaurant bar. Places that derive 51% or more of their revenue from alcohol sales are verboten to CHLs, and should be properly posted. But I don't go to "bar only" establishments.

But it also says that a CHL holder who has had a drink (s) has to be "impaired" before it's illegal for us to carry. The legal limit of .08 is not mention in the Texas CHL Code, IIRC. The impaired thing here is pretty ambiguous.

[TriggerMan]

True but said businesses are required to post a 51% sign.


The carry law here in Texas has the same proviso, but we can sit in the restaurant bar. Places that derive 51% or more of their revenue from alcohol sales are verboten to CHLs, and should be properly posted. But I don't go to "bar only" establishments.

But it also says that a CHL holder who has had a drink (s) has to be "impaired" before it's illegal for us to carry. The legal limit of .08 is not mention in the Texas CHL Code, IIRC. The impaired thing here is pretty ambiguous.The problem here is twofold, first our law does not require a 51% type sign; second, police use discretion when determining whether to arrest you and confiscate your carry gun. I try to stack the odds in my favor by never sitting in the bar area, even if the place is family oriented and PROBABLY get most of its revenue from food.

[PYROhafe]

So... here in SC the no gun sign has to adhere to a set criteria for it to be legal. So if I see one of these signs with a gun with a line through it, or something of that nature but it doesn't meet the requirments of sc law does that mean I can basically pretend itsnot there and carry on in?

[TheTman]

I don't know about SC, but that is the way KS Law is written.

[Wayne Nelson]

If I am remembering this correctly, in Minnesota in a bar or restaurant, if it is posted no handguns, then no handguns allowed. If it isn't posted you can be there but you can't/shouldn't be consuming any alcohol over BAC .04, over a BAC of .04 is a misdemeanor. A repeat offense above .10 is a gross misdemeanor. The gun is NOT subject to fortfeiture. It is a good practice to not drink if you are carrying!

Then there is the argument if the signs are positioned correctly at all entrances and exits and are of the legal size with the required lettering size, font and color, etc.
* In Minnesota there must be a sign at EVERY entrance
* the sign MUST be 187 sq. in.
* 1 1/2" tall lettering, black Arial print on a bright, contrasting background
* bottom of sign 4-6 feet above ground
* sign laterally within 4 ft. of entrance
* MUST INCLUDE and READ: (Indicate identity of Operator) "BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES".
Anything other than the above is NOT a properly posted sign. Wisconsin has a totally different set of rules for signs. So, be sure to check the rules and laws in the state where you live as they differ.

[jocko]

I assume it is posted in multiple languages to. There are a hell of alot of border crossers in this cuntry that can't read or write. Just sayin.

[DKD]

I have had my ccw for over twenty years and thats just in Florida. It is lawfull to carry in a food establishment provided that you aren't just drinking at the bar area. I have not yet run into any posted signs in establishments down Florida way except for the (Duh) Post Office & County Court Buildings.
Now as for consuming a meal in the dinning area you are just fine evn if alcohol is being served. Wine or beer or even a cocktail is fine along with your meal...just keep it in moderation. When the wife and I or friends go out for dinner, should I want a glass of wine with my dinner I just let the wife drive home....just use good common sense. Drinking and driving don't make sense and the same goes for carrying. Should the need arise that you have to defend yourself or loved one if your were imbibbing you will certainly loose what the law calls your veil of inocense...use your head and you will come to the right conclusion.

[Chief Joseph]

I believe you're not breaking the law unless a private property owner sees your gun and asks you to leave. If you leave, you haven't broken the law. If you stay, then you're trespassing. I carry everywhere but the post office, never need to go to courts or other fed buildings. When I see a movie, I carry, even though I see the no gun sign.

[TheTman]

Here they have a picture of a gun with a black circle and a red slash over the gun, and has to be a certain size and posted at every entrance in the proper manner.
I heard that the post office was busting people now for having guns in their car "on their property" That means if you pull into drop a letter in the mailbox and it's on post office property, they can bust your for having a gun on federal property, or leave your gun in the car while you mail a package or something. I heard on the radio that they busted some guy for having a gun in his car in the parking lot.
I messed up one day and carried into a bank once. I just forgot I had it on. I realized when I went to grab my wallet and felt the holser. Fortunately it was jacket weather and I had a good sized jacket on so no one saw it.

[DKD]

I may be mistaken, but I beleive in Florida you can carry at a bank. you are vulnerable especially while leaving such a facility . If someone out there feels that I am in error ,please feel free to correct me.

[JFootin]

Here they have a picture of a gun with a black circle and a red slash over the gun, and has to be a certain size and posted at every entrance in the proper manner.
I heard that the post office was busting people now for having guns in their car "on their property" That means if you pull into drop a letter in the mailbox and it's on post office property, they can bust your for having a gun on federal property, or leave your gun in the car while you mail a package or something. I heard on the radio that they busted some guy for having a gun in his car in the parking lot.

Somebody needs to challenge this kind of unconstitutional behavior by the post office in the Supreme Court.

[TheTman]

I can't find anything using Google about anyone arrested for having guns on post office property. I heard about it on Sean Hannity or Mark Levin or one of those talk radio guys. Haven't heard anything since, but I don't listen to the radio much.