Some unsolicited thoughts on carrying a Kahr (long!)

[jwr]

Now that I've had my CW9 for a couple of weeks and have had the chance to carry it both IWB and OWB I thought I'd share some observations about carrying this slick little pistol. Let me say up front that I realize that everyone will have unique issues while carrying concealed whether they be physical build, type of work, dress codes requirements, weather, etc.

Prior to the CW9 my main carry handgun was a Sig P238 which I carried about 95% of the time. I also have a Springfield XD9sc which I think is a fantastic firearm but I rarely carried it because, for me, it's just too fat--IWB or OWB. I've been thinking for quite a while about getting a 9mm that I could actually carry. I love the little P238 and don't mind carrying a .380 but wanted a concealable 9mm as well.

I went into the shop thinking I'd buy a PM9 or PF-9 and walked out about 45 minutes later with a CW9. Deciding was an interesting process but too much to go into here. I quickly ordered a Don Hume JIT (OWB) and Don Hume 715 (IWB) so I could start carrying it as soon as possible.

BTW, I'm 6'4" (closer to 6'5") and about 240 lbs.

Here are a few things I've found:



At first I wondered if I should have bought a PM9 so I could pocket carry in addition to the other types of carry. Since the CW9 is the same width as the PM9 I pulled out my calipers and discovered that the Kahr's slide is .21" *wider* (a little over 3/16") than my P238 and the PM9 would have been about 3/8" longer as well. For me and my wardrobe the PM9 is just too big for the pockets of a lot of the clothes I wear. Even the P238 is marginal in some of my pockets (I know some of you will strongly disagree and that's okay).



For me a PM9 could not replace my P238. It's just a little too big. But... a P380 has a capability of making an even better pocket gun than the P238. Something to think about in the future :)



Shooting the CW9 also helped convince me that going with it over the PM9 was the right thing for *me*. The recoil on the CW9 is mild but even so I am *much* faster getting back on target for accurate followups with the P238. If anything the PM9 would have slowed me down a hair more than the CW9.



The difference between carrying the P238 and the CW9 in an OWB holster is very small. The longer barrel on the CW9 is still easily covered by an untucked shirt and the CW9 is slim enough to just have a slight bulge when pulled in tight to my side. The biggest difference is the length of the grip but even there it barely shows while carrying the CW9 at 3 o'clock (I carry my P238 as 3 also, and because I sit at a desk all day 3 seems to work well).



The longer grip of the CW9, while harder to conceal, makes drawing from IWB or OWB easier than the P238 by giving me a more positive initial grip. I tried the Hogue Handall Jr and to me it actually made a quick grip *more* difficult, but I have weird hands--large palms and short fingers.



When carrying IWB I thought the longer barrel of the CW9 would be a problem but I don't even notice it.



However the extra width of the CW9 *is* quite noticeable while carrying IWB. The P238 kind of disappears but if I'm going to carry the CW9 IWB very often I'll probably have to add an inch to the waist size of my pants.

Sorry for the long ramble. I just wanted to share some of my thoughts in the hope that they might be useful to someone else.

Bottom line is that I am delighted with the CW9. It's easy to carry and conceal, the build quality seems excellent, it's very accurate, and the price was right. So much so that I'm now pondering a CW45 :D

(Here are a couple photos to show the difference in size between the P238 and CW9)
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/grip-100.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/238vKahr-101.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/238vCW9-100.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/238vCW9-101.jpg

P238, CW9, and XD9sc
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/sig-kahr-sa-102.jpg

[deadhead1971]

Pm9 and Ruger LCP 380.

I can carry both in a front pocket (jeans and dress slacks or shorts) in a blackhawk nylon holster no problem. I always tuck my shirts in so pocket carry is my option.

[hsart]

It would be interesting to hear comments regarding the reliability comparison of the Sig P238 and Kahr P380. Similar price points and size. I'm trying to decide between them for a secondary (pocket) carry.

[jwr]

It would be interesting to hear comments regarding the reliability comparison of the Sig P238 and Kahr P380. Similar price points and size. I'm trying to decide between them for a secondary (pocket) carry.
It's almost impossible to get a representative sample looking at online forums but I will say that I've seen a *lot* more reports of problem P238's than I have of problem P380's.

I was drawn to the P238 because of the 1911-ish styling, metal frame, and SA trigger. The thing is a heck of a lot of fun to shoot (which I understand is *not* the most important factor is choosing a SD handgun :D)

[jwr]

Pm9 and Ruger LCP 380.

I can carry both in a front pocket (jeans and dress slacks or shorts) in a blackhawk nylon holster no problem.
Yeah, I know it works for a lot of folks. I just didn't like the feel of the PM9 in my pocket because it's so much thicker than the P238. Made me feel like I had a John Grisham paperback in my front pocket. :)

[hsart]

It's almost impossible to get a representative sample looking at online forums but I will say that I've seen a *lot* more reports of problem P238's than I have of problem P380's.

I was drawn to the P238 because of the 1911-ish styling, metal frame, and SA trigger. The thing is a heck of a lot of fun to shoot (which I understand is *not* the most important factor is choosing a SD handgun :D)
I agree re styling and feel. I have not shot either yet as the local range here in SW Florida does not have any rentals of the pocket carry 380s. Once I figure out how to pay for a S&W Model 39 I have my eyes on I'll probably buy both of the 380s and sell the one I feel is the least dependable.

[recoilguy]

That was a very interesting review and it covered many good points. thank you for the time you took to do this.

RCG

[Copper&Black]

That was a very interesting review and it covered many good points. thank you for the time you took to do this.

RCG

+ 1

[jwr]

That was a very interesting review and it covered many good points. thank you for the time you took to do this.
RCG
Thanks! And you're welcome!

Hsart, I was just over at the LGS and they had a P380. Display only--not for sale, but I got to play with it a little bit. Wow! What a slick little package! Forget the CW45--I might start saving my pennies for the P380.

[Copper&Black]

I just put a deposit down today for a P380 Stainless slide, today....Can't wait for it to come in!!

[zena]

Thanks for the great post and pics. Always useful to see the research others have done.:)

[getsome]

The P238 is a nice gun but does anyone else have a problem with pocket carry of a coc$ed (didnt whnt to get bleeped for using the c word) and locked single action pistol????...Kinda makes Mobey and the boys nervous!!!

[jeep45238]

Nope, no more so than having one on the hip.

Step one: flick off thumb safety
Step two: depress grip safety
Step three:depress bang switch

Seems safer than a DOA pistol without a safety ;)

[jwr]

The P238 is a nice gun but does anyone else have a problem with pocket carry of a coc$ed (didnt whnt to get bleeped for using the c word) and locked single action pistol????.
This comes up a lot. As long as you have a pocket holster that covers the safety and trigger I believe it's just as safe as carrying a DA in your pocket in a holster.

P238: Disengage safety, pull trigger
PM9: pull trigger

Yes, the PM9 has a longer trigger pull but they're both about 5#. Even if you were to bump the safety off in your pocket you still have to to pull the trigger which is completely covered.

A lot of guys who shoot 1911's are used to drawing and sweeping the safety off as you swing up to the target. It's second nature after some training.

I've heard some guys say they worry about lint or junk getting built up between the cocked hammer and firing pin but if, like me, you never put anything else in that pocket and you check your gun in the evening I don't think it's an issue.

This came up on the Sig forum not long ago and some guys admitted that it's more a psychological issue than a logical one. 1911 guys wonder what the fuss is about but for other folks it just looks scary.

What's interesting is that there are guys carrying little P380's and LCP's around in their pocket *without* holsters. To me *that's* scary. I want that trigger covered! ;)

Sorry for the long answer!

[jeep45238]

1911 guys wonder what the fuss is about but for other folks it just looks scary.


What's the fuss about?



Texas Ranger Charlie Miller was minding his own business when a concerned citizen came up to him, noted the hammer cocked back on the big 1911 dangling from the Ranger's belt, and asked, "Isn't that dangerous?" Charlie replied, "I wouldn't carry the son-of-a-***** if it wasn't dangerous."

[jwr]

What's the fuss about?
1911 guys are easy to spot :D

[ripley16]

What's the fuss about?

In a holster on a belt...nothing, but a single action pocket gun gives me the willies. No thanks, I'll stick with my Seecamp.

[jwr]

... but a single action pocket gun gives me the willies.
Is there a logical reason for your aversion? Just curious.

[getsome]

I can see both sides of this issue and I think it just boils down to what you cut your teeth on....I came up shooting revolvers and never thought I would ever own a semi auto pistol but later on I started to like the idea of fast reloads and bought a S&W 645 because I liked the revolver like SA/DA design and the hammer drop feature and because Sonny Crockett carried one and I thought it looked cool!!!...I have had many SA/DA semi auto pistols but until just recently never had a 1911 SA pistol...Well I bought a S&W 1911 and really, really like it....It is a great shooter and I can see that if you came up shooting a 1911 type gun it would seem strange to try and shoot something else... I totally respect the 1911 platform but its just not my cup of tea....I seem to revert back to what I have always liked which is revolvers and some SA/DA semi autos and DA only pistols like the Kahr design....

[jeep45238]

No, simple psychological issues.

It's already been addressed from a logical standpoint of having to flick off the thumb saftey, grasp the pistol to depress the grip safety (on an officers, non-existent in Colt Mustangs or their clones), and get to the boom switch. To get to the boom switch requires removal from a holster that sheilds the trigger from everything.

People are so worried about trigger travel, without thought to the rest of the system. It's that trigger travel that lets you be very accurate and very fast in the follow up shot!

[jwr]

Since the topic came up I dug up a post I'd done for another forum regarding drawing a SA gun from a pocket holster. It's not really Kahr related but does pertain to the topic and this CCW sub-forum.

Someone had asked if there are problems with snagging and the safety while drawing the Sig P238.


I start with my hand in my pocket, my fingers resting against the leather flat in the holster and my thumb directly over the (cocked) hammer/beavertail:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/pocket-draw-106.jpg

By pressing down with my middle finger the gun pops loose from the holster. My thumb is still over the hammer:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/pocket-draw-107.jpg

Withdrawing the gun from my pocket the hooks on the top corners of the holster keep the holster from coming out with the gun and I end up with the pistol clear of the holster and my thumb still covering the hammer:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/pocket-draw-103.jpg

From here it's an intuitive action to slide the thumb down, sweeping off the safety, while firming up my grip on the gun:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/pocket-draw-104.jpg

And, with finger still off the trigger, it's ready to go:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/pocket-draw-105.jpg

It's really a natural movement with this gun/holster combination. The hammer is covered during the draw which prevents any snagging. I also find that by keeping my thumb over the hammer it positions the rest of my hand right where it needs to be on the grip.

Like I said, I'm no expert but this works very well for me and it pretty fast as well. And yes, I checked twice to make sure the gun was unloaded before I took the pics :D

You can also see that this holster is molded to hold the forward half of the safety in the "safe" position:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/238h-101.jpg

[jeep45238]

Wanna trade even for a P3AT with an Armalaser and pocket holster? Even toss in 2 boxes of Aguilla .380 FMJ ammo, just for you ;)

[Bot]

I had a Colt Mustang which is pretty much the same gun. I don't like the whole cocked and (hopefully) stayed lock carry.

[jwr]

I don't like the whole cocked and (hopefully) stayed lock carry.
Yeah, we understand some folks don't like it but we're trying to figure out *why*. :)

Cocked and unlocked, as you are alluding to, in a holster, with the trigger covered, is pretty much what you get with a DA pocket gun--you still have to put your finger on the trigger and pull.

It might have a slightly shorter travel but a 5lb SA trigger and a 5lb DA trigger require the same amount of force to be exerted by your finger to make it go off. The DA just requires a little more travel.

There is a block on the 238 that prevents it from firing if the hammer falls *without* the trigger being pulled. The only thing to worry about is pulling the trigger and if your finger is on the trigger then you should be prepared for it to go off :)

If folks are worried about accidentally grabbing the trigger then they probably shouldn't have a DA pistol in your pocket either.

BTW, my comments aren't directed at just you but at all the good folks worried about this method of carry. I really am trying to figure out what the underlying concern is.

And Jeep, I have a nice Walther P99 air gun and a couple tins of pellets I'll trade you for your P3AT, but the P238 is a keeper. At least until I find something I like better ;)

[ripley16]

Is there a logical reason for your aversion? Just curious.

I've carried a gun in a pocket for over twenty years, and in that time I've learned that things happen to the gun. Pockets get bumped and thumped, mags get popped, safeties get moved, and Murphy plays an active role.

In general, I do not like to carry a pistol that even has a safety. I do not like any defensive pistol that requires more than pulling the trigger.

Nor do I like a defensive pistol with a very light trigger. The Kahrs are the lightest first pull triggers I've ever used and they are about my limit. Accidents are a higher probability the lighter the trigger.

I don't criticize your preference for the Sig P238. It just isn't for me because it doesn't fit my personal philosophy. My whole viewpoint concerning the 1911 changed years ago when a friend of mine, a true experienced professional, on the HRT shot himself accidentally.

I've fondled and mauled the P238 and liked it, but my only comment to the dealer was, "I'd buy it if it was a DA."

[jwr]

Ripley, thanks for the well-reasoned reply!

[noslolo]

Great Post jwr. Well written and a nice read. I used to carry and Firestar M-40 (SA) as my daily carry, and I kept it cocked and locked. It never bothered me, but when I got around my best friend it would bother him. He likes DA and was not used to seeing the hammer cocked back. I traded in my Firestar for a CW40, and he has no problem with it, even though it has less saftey features. No logic here. I loved the Firestar and didn't want to get rid of it, but it was so darned heavy that it made it a pain to carry.

[unclenunzie]

As a newb in the realm of handguns and carry, here's my rambling thoughts on the C&L scary thing. :)

It looks scary - been discussed forever. Scary is internal to the observer and says more about them than the gun. I happen to find it looks scary myself, but it also looks wicked serious as well, which I like. Perp sees user is not messing around. Run away!

Hammer cocked is full energy available for striking the firing pin. This is in contrast to most DAO autos where only partial tension/energy is available, but I honestly do not know on specific model basis, which ones could detonate a primer if their respective sear suddenly failed. I have a PM9 and an LCP that fit this question. The PM9 has a passive block which if the cocking cam (sear) were to magically disintigrate, would prevent firing. The LCP has no such block. But neither gun makes me particularly nervous about carry, though I wish the PM9 block spring were just a wee bit stronger. Purely psychological.

Physically, though safe, C&L is inherently higher on the danger scale because of the full energy part - just my personal feeling, not even an opinion, and I know there are many decades of safe use history.

The 1911 pattern pistols (series 70 types?) in a state of cocked and unlocked (condition 0) has only the sear keeping that full-energy hammer at bay. In my springer loaded the sear appears to be hardened steel, so I suspect 99% out there including the sig 238 are too. If the hammer's sear interface were to fail, there are half-**** notches which would catch the hammer and prevent firing.

The 1911s have a grip safety which blocks rearward trigger travel only. In condition 0 the sear can't be tripped to release the hammer unless the trigger is pulled, and the grip safety keeps that from happening. The sig 238 doesn't have one, so in condition 0 you depend on a good holster to keep the trigger untouched.

I recently handled a kimber in my LGS, and the trigger is real light by my estimation. If the sig 238 is like that and without a grip safety I would be afraid to carry it in my pocket for fear the thumb safety might get swept off accidentially. Unlikely, but there it is.

unclenunzie

[jwr]

Hammer cocked is full energy available for striking the firing pin.
From the Sig Manual:

"The automatic firing pin safety blocks the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled.

The hammer safety intercept notch prevents the hammer from contacting the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled."

Even if the hammer drops the firing pin is blocked *unless* the trigger is pulled, regardless of the position of the thumb safety. This, or something similar, has been in place on the 1911's since the Series 80. C0ck the gun, drop it, and it won't go off. C0ck it, smack the hammer loose without pulling the trigger and it won't go off--even if the manual safety is disengaged.

I also suspect that unless your Kimber is setup specifically for carry, it has a much lighter trigger pull than a P238.



C&L is inherently higher on the danger scale because of the full energy part.

I understand the thought but disagree with the conclusion. If that stored energy cannot contact the firing pin then the danger is no higher.

I also think that's it's just as possible that the same type of mishap that could disengage a P238 safety *and* pull the trigger while it's covered by the holster could snag the trigger on a PM9--especially while *reholstering* the gun.

(BTW, I think both types are very safe to carry--even in your pocket)

Regards!

[unclenunzie]

Being a series-80-type FPB is present in the Sig P238, it should be safe to carry in pocket with the manual safety accidentally off, so long as the trigger is protected by the holster. How does the trigger pull on your P238 feel by comparison to say a kahr? It would be interesting if the pulls are the same, because that would leave the safety mechanisms as differentiators. In such a case the manual safety decreases risk beyond the shared FPB they both have. The next consideration would be trigger pull travel, which I have to believe is much shorter on the P238, being a 1911 platform?



Standard disclaimer - my personal opinions only, not advice of any kind :)

[jwr]

It would be interesting if the pulls are the same, because that would leave the safety mechanisms as differentiators. In such a case the manual safety decreases risk beyond the shared FPB they both have. The next consideration would be trigger pull travel, which I have to believe is much shorter on the P238, being a 1911 platform?
Neither trigger feels noticeably heavier than the other. The CW9's travel is *much* longer though, giving it the advantage if someone accidentally grabs a handful of trigger while drawing the gun. Of course if someone grabs the P238 in the same manner the the safety would prevent a discharge. In either case the key is finger/trigger control.

I don't necessarily think one is safer than the other and am equally comfortable carrying either. An AD is possible with either under slightly different scenarios. The P238 would require that the safety be off *and* the noticeably shorter traveling trigger be pulled. The CW9 just requires a long accidental trigger pull.

On a related note, it's interesting to me that the very popular Springfield XD's are single action pistols with the striker being completely cocked when a round is chambered (unlike the partially cocked Glocks). But, because there is no hammer to see no one thinks about it. There is a grip safety and trigger safety but most knowledgeable folks I talk to consider the grip safety unnecessary. So all these XD owners (myself included) are walking around with a fully cocked weapon with a nice short SA trigger. :D

[madwill]

after getting back into handguns afer a 15 year hiatus i took a look at what was available. i was dizzy from the prospects. but, after careful consideration i decided on DAO platforms for all my handguns. why? my reasoning was this: in a self defense situation it's not always going to be an upright, 2 handed wide legged stance calmly shooting at a stationary target. it's not called violent assault for nothing. you may be injured, you may be knocked down, you may be shaking from adrenaline, plus a few more factors (grip reaction,the squeezing of one hand can cause involuntary movment in the opposite hand is another, is one that's not widely talked about) DAO seemed like the best choice. no saftey, longer trigger pulls just made more sense to me in a chaotic situation. the K.I.S.S. principle.

[ripley16]

...the K.I.S.S. principle.

I couldn't have said it better, this is my defensive CCW philosophy also.

[unclenunzie]

On a related note, it's interesting to me that the very popular Springfield XD's are single action pistols with the striker being completely cocked when a round is chambered (unlike the partially cocked Glocks). But, because there is no hammer to see no one thinks about it. There is a grip safety and trigger safety but most knowledgeable folks I talk to consider the grip safety unnecessary. So all these XD owners (myself included) are walking around with a fully cocked weapon with a nice short SA trigger. :D

Funny you mention the XD, as I just bought an XD45c last monday. For me, the grip safety is a MUST with this weapon because it blocks the single-action sear. Even though it has a very positive FPB I wouldn't feel comfortable without the GS. The longer trigger pull before the sear is touched has no mechanical function but serves as additional safety, for some that may make the GS redundant. I have seen alternate views posted, some people get the long pull reduced or eliminated, while a smaller group want to pin the grip safety off. I'm leaving mine as is :)

It's weird how all the the combinations of safeties, safety features, and operating priniciples appeal more or less to each user somewhat differently:

Kahr: DA sear, FPB, long light trigger
1911 s70: SA sear, trigger blocking grip safety, sear blocking thumb safety, short light trigger
1911 s80: SA sear, FPB, trigger blocking grip safety, sear blocking thumb safety, short light trigger
XD: SA sear, FPB, trigger lever (glockish), sear blocking grip safety, long moderate/light trigger
Glock*: DA sear, FPB, trigger lever, short-medium light trigger
686: DA heavy long trigger pull, hammer block, heavy FP spring
686: SA very light very short trigger pull, do not carry like this :) :eek:
SP101: same as 686 except transfer bar versus hammer block

Threw in my revolvers just for fun and perspective
*I have shot Glocks but don't own any

I'm thinking the combination of safety features and operating principles is more about personal choice than anything else (with modern handguns in good condition). The number one safety is in proper handling :)

[linksrds]

I have just recently purchased the p380...there was a substantial difference in the price between the LCP, the Taurus and Kel Tec, but for me the differnce was well worth the extra money paid....

i have fired slightly over 200 rounds for the break in period and I have had FTF in the first 25 rounds. After that, no problems at all...

The point ability is excellent and it rides very nicely in a DeSantis Nemisis holster in the right front pocket of my cargo pants.