Extremely Disappointed with CM9!

[RichC]

I purchased my CM9 last Thursday. I cleaned it on Friday night and took it to the range on Sat. I ran 2 clips through it with no problems. ( Using standard 9mm FMJ, NO +P ) On the 3rd round into the 3rd clip, I felt a stinging sensation in my right hand, on inspection, the slide was partially open with a casing still in the chamber. The side panel on right side was missing (probably was what hit my hand). I found it 20 feet away. When I pulled back on the slide to look inside, the extractor and extractor front pin fell out of the pistol. I will of course contact Kahr first thing in the morning. I would post pictures, but since this is my first post, I am no allowed to. This does not make me feel comfortable with Kahr!

[jocko]

wow, that has to be a first. not a first good experience. I am wondering if maybe u got aq accidetal realy really super duper hot round and it blew that back panel out. Kahr will say somewhere in their literature that this is a blow out panel besides an opeing to get to parts etc incase of a round failure of some sort. The stinging sensation in ur hand to me kinda indicates u got a round that was totally oput of spec. I am just assumig as we willnever know if it was as I possable descripbed, but this just does not happen unless there is a real failure somewhere andnormaly it has to be a BOOM thing to cause this to happen. Did u check the barrel to make sure now that there is nothng in the barrel either. Kahr will fix u up, but I would also suggest u give some thought as to possasble the gun not being at fault here but the round and the gun maybe saving your hand for worse damage. For the extractor and pinto fall out has zero to do with that side panel, but certainly is an indication that the BOOM THIGS was not as prescribed either.

[SDGlock23]

I would call that an ammo problem, not a Kahr problem. I had the same thing happen to me with an XDM40, but the ammo was warm and luckily it didn't break the gun.

[Bawanna]

For sure some unknown factors here. You said standard not +P so I assume it was factory stuff and not a reload. Kahr should eat the +P just fine, but it sounds like this was far more than +P.

Kahr will definitely fix it for you and I'm hoping that this terribly lousy first impression will not linger when you get it running properly.

Disregarding the sticking sensation, did the boom and the recoil fill different than the previous shots?

[jocko]

as u know it can only be one round out of a bos of good ammo that can acuase it to happen. the rest could be perfectr so one will assume it is the gun. Normally things just do not blow off of any gun unless it is somehow ammo related. My little sister about 10 years ago (age 50 then) washit by a car broad side. her air bag worked perfectly and more than like saved her alot of bodily injury but she bitc-ed like hell that the bag whenit went off bruised her face and chest area. I just shook my head!!!:crazy:

[JFootin]

Could it have been a squib? Can you see through the barrel? Definitely nothing to fault Kahr about. The blowout panel worked and saved your hand. I have never seen a report of this happening to a Kahr unless someone was using questionable reload ammo or something. At any rate, Kahr CS will take care of you. Be polite. If you lose patience trying to get through to a live person on a Monday morning, send them an email instead. They'll usually reply within a day.

[RichC]

I did not consider that it could have been a squib. The shell casing was still in gun since it did not eject. I went back after your post and using a pencil forced the casing out of the chamber. The back side of the casing blew out at the rim. My knees are now buckling just a little. I did not notice any difference in the power or sound of any of the shots I fired though. Thanks for the help. I will get it back to Kahr and hopefully they will fix it up.

[Russ]

The important thing is you are ok.

Guns can be repaired much easier than the human body.

Russ

[Tinman507]

Thank God the gun performed as designed. I've never heard of such a thing.
What brand was it?
Got LOTS of photos. Sheesh.

[FearlessNKY]

Sounds like an ammo problem to me....more than likely a Squib. I had a Kahr P9 blow up in my hands at the range about 5-6 years ago. After sending it back to Kahr for inspection and contacting Federal, Federal paid Kahr to replace my P9 with a new one......it was clear as day that a squib round was to blame.

Contact both Kahr and the ammo manufacture.....I'm sure that they will take care of you!...and BTW, glad to hear you are ok, as the gun can always be replaced.

[Ubaldo99]

Whoa! That is scary. Glad that you are ok, RichC. Get with Kahr CS asap and they will undoubtedly make it right. Please keep us in the loop. Thanks.

[jocko]

u are very fortunate that federal stepped up to the plate and took care of ur P9. that was good of them, Ihave no douvbt this was a bad round of excessive pressure. expeciall with the back of the shell casing blown out. This is not a gun issue IMO. naturaly thegun takes the brunt of the incident but it couldhave been worse and maybe that panel in a way did what kahr has said it cold do in case of a blow out.

[whitemule]

Hey, please forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a "squib"? I've never heard the term used before, but I've only been actively shooting semis for a couple years.

[center_mass]

Hey, please forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a "squib"? I've never heard the term used before, but I've only been actively shooting semis for a couple years.


and what/where is this "blowout panel"?

[gear_guy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_load

A round that doesn't have enough force for the bullet to exit the barrel.

[ltxi]

defective light load cartridge....bullet never clears the end of the barrel

[Bawanna]

The blowout panel is on top of the right side of the grip. It's held in place by a little torx head screw. They remove it to see and work on the trigger bar, spring etc.

In a high pressure situation, it just pops that panel off which unfortunately if right in the palm of a right handed shooter.

[muggsy]

Hey, please forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a "squib"? I've never heard the term used before, but I've only been actively shooting semis for a couple years.

A squib load is an under powered load that leaves the projectile in the barrel. If you don't notice it and a subsequent round is fired that's when what you can experienced what happen to you. Generally if this occurs you will notice a pronounced bulge in the barrel. From your description I'd say that what you experienced was a load that was over charged with powder. It's a rare occurrence with factory ammunition, but it can happen. Kahr should be able to tell you for sure just what caused the failure.

[jocko]

may years ago I sold a customer a K 22 masterpeace. This is a real tank made gun. The gun was a novice tosay the least . He went to a ond to shoot it, and threw a tincan in the water and fired 6 times, he never seena splash or anything. He logged 6 rounds inthe barrel, never hurt a thing. My local smitty friend got the rounds out OK and no harm no foul. can u image had this been a 38spl K38 masterpeace and he done tat.

I will say this I have seen very few kahr blown barrels. I know it has happened but kahr barrels are certainly tuff sob's and I would think had it been a squib, he would have seen some kind of damage to the barrel. My bet it was a very very very hot round and the excessive gases had to go somewhere while the bullet was leaving the gun, so backwards it came blowingout very commonly the extractor on the way to now blowingout the weakest part of the gun the side panel. Almost like a pressure value on a pressure cooker. When u need it , it works..

Thereis no embarrasemnt in what happened to this guy, if it was a bad round one would never know it in advance, just a chanc eutake when ever u pull that trigger. I am assuming also as most here that this was not any kind of reload but just a bad factory round. It happes and that is why we often see recallsof certain lots of ammo. somethigin that lot caused concern for the maker.

[Ikeo74]

This is the second incident like this reported in 1 week. The other was on XDTalk. Both posts were new posters with 1 post, both had a case head seperations. Both were pissed. I am wondering if they are the same poster.....It seems ironic for this to happen twice. Both were new guns, never fired before. This one a CM9. The other an XD40. Quite a coincidence if you ask me!:2rolleyes: Any one hear of a blow out on glock talk or any other?

[RichC]

Not the same poster. I found this site because of the problem. I don't know anything about the other site mentioned. There does not appear to be any damage to the barrel.

[CJB]

I'm gonna chime in here... may not be totally popular response though.

When there is a squib in a recoil operated semi auto - the shooter is alerted, as the action does not cycle as it should. Check out the several AR15 squibs on YouTube. I've watched them.... guy shoots, manually extracts the casing... loads up another... BOOM.

Squibs will normally result in a bulged pistol barrel. The ol' goose egg. Those happen because the moving bullet hits the one stuck in the barrel, resulting in a practical demonstration of the Munroe effect.

High pressure, on the other hand, will either crack the barrel at the rifling lead, and/or blow out a section of the cartridge case head.

Which brings me to the unpopular part.....
When an entire head separates there is a pretty good chance that the slide, barrel, action... was not fully into battery, and yet the round fired. This is much the same as hugely over spec on headspace in a rifle. In a rifle, assuming the firing pin is long enough, and the extractor isn't holding the case against the boltface, big headspace will result in a stretched case head, and total separation (or nearly so, with a ring of thin brass at the stretched spot). Again, thats in contrast to plain ol high pressure, which blows out the weak spot (unsupported spot) at the feed ramp area, but doesn't stretch the case. The same would hold true if the pistol was not quite into battery and a discharge occurred.

So... we might have an issue with the pistol. There's a coin toss good chance of it. Sorry to say that, ya know I love my Kahrs, but... it could be.

Glad the sideplate blew out,relieving pressure that was building up in the mag well (and couldn't escape with the mag still being in there). The other parts that broke also suggest a BOOM. It remains to be seen if there was ammo or pistol at fault.

[Allen]

Boy this is scary, and I'm getting ready for my first trip to the range with my new Kahr CM9. This kind of thing that would make a person really flinch every time they pulled the trigger.

Back 40 years ago when we were hand loading for our hunting rifles we always used the type of powder that took a large enough charge that the case wouldn't hold a double charge. Cost more that way but some of the hotter powders used a small enough charge that it would be easy to get a double charge behind the bullet.

Wonder if weighing each round on a set of powder scales would identify a hot round, or does most 9mm rounds use so little powder that a difference of a grain or two in bullet and case weight would make this hard to do?

[CJB]

Weighing would indicate a problem. You should find within about .5 grains or so from cartridge to cartridge, depending on brass, bullet and powder. Thats in one box of new cartridges. Reloads, remanufactured, or like cartridges from different lots, will vary more.

[JFootin]

I'm gonna chime in here... may not be totally popular response though.

When there is a squib in a recoil operated semi auto - the shooter is alerted, as the action does not cycle as it should. Check out the several AR15 squibs on YouTube. I've watched them.... guy shoots, manually extracts the casing... loads up another... BOOM.

Squibs will normally result in a bulged pistol barrel. The ol' goose egg. Those happen because the moving bullet hits the one stuck in the barrel, resulting in a practical demonstration of the Munroe effect.

High pressure, on the other hand, will either crack the barrel at the rifling lead, and/or blow out a section of the cartridge case head.

Which brings me to the unpopular part.....
When an entire head separates there is a pretty good chance that the slide, barrel, action... was not fully into battery, and yet the round fired. This is much the same as hugely over spec on headspace in a rifle. In a rifle, assuming the firing pin is long enough, and the extractor isn't holding the case against the boltface, big headspace will result in a stretched case head, and total separation (or nearly so, with a ring of thin brass at the stretched spot). Again, thats in contrast to plain ol high pressure, which blows out the weak spot (unsupported spot) at the feed ramp area, but doesn't stretch the case. The same would hold true if the pistol was not quite into battery and a discharge occurred.

So... we might have an issue with the pistol. There's a coin toss good chance of it. Sorry to say that, ya know I love my Kahrs, but... it could be.

Glad the sideplate blew out,relieving pressure that was building up in the mag well (and couldn't escape with the mag still being in there). The other parts that broke also suggest a BOOM. It remains to be seen if there was ammo or pistol at fault.

CJB is about as much an authority on anything to do with guns and shooting as anybody I know of, so he may have something here. Normally, these guns are designed so they won't shoot if not fully in battery. So, greater minds than mine will have to figure it out.

I wish the mods would clear RichC for posting photos. I'm sure a lot of us would like to see some pics of this.

Rich, if you right click on my avatar, you can send me some pics by email and I'll post them.

[CJB]

Both the pm45's on my desk here will release the striker about 1/16 inch out of battery or maybe even 3/32 inch out. Just saying....

[JFootin]

Both the pm45's on my desk here will release the striker about 1/16 inch out of battery or maybe even 3/32 inch out. Just saying....

Yeah, but does the striker hit a snap cap? Or is it designed to not come out far enough to fire the bullet when not in battery?

[jocko]

Weighing would indicate a problem. You should find within about .5 grains or so from cartridge to cartridge, depending on brass, bullet and powder. Thats in one box of new cartridges. Reloads, remanufactured, or like cartridges from different lots, will vary more.

I know u now people are never going to do that, I certainly would not. we take chances every day, that is just part of life. One would really hav eto know alot about any box of ammo he buys even. as to what is the exact weight in the first place etc. I just don;'t think anyone can forsee a kaboom, yes a squib maybe but not a kaboom. With hearing protectros on today that work so good even a squib load is hard to feel, recoil wise would be an indication but again depends on if ur rapid firings or piddling around to.

Just shoot the fokker like u stole it, 99.995% will never encounter a squib or kaboom, This unlucky fella was the other missing %. Kahr will get him right.

[jocko]

Yeah, but does the striker hit a snap cap? Or is it designed to not come out far enough to fire the bullet when not in battery?

my K9 has what CJB is talking about, I never checked muy P<M9 but I suppose t is the same. IMO that 1/16 area is negliable at best. I see no reason why a kaboom would happen with that "PLAY or what ever one wants to call it. I notice with that 1/16 or so play that the breech is still tight agaisnt the chamber, it takes a good quarter inch of side being pulled back before a gap starts to appear and thenthe gun is indeed out of battery.

I would put my money on a kaboom and not this other thing, as I would be every kahr has this small amount of give, now whether it would even fire a round as one mentioned, I would say probably yes ...

[yqtszhj]

I'm gonna chime in here... may not be totally popular response though.

When there is a squib in a recoil operated semi auto - the shooter is alerted, as the action does not cycle as it should. Check out the several AR15 squibs on YouTube. I've watched them.... guy shoots, manually extracts the casing... loads up another... BOOM.

Squibs will normally result in a bulged pistol barrel. The ol' goose egg. Those happen because the moving bullet hits the one stuck in the barrel, resulting in a practical demonstration of the Munroe effect.

High pressure, on the other hand, will either crack the barrel at the rifling lead, and/or blow out a section of the cartridge case head.

Which brings me to the unpopular part.....
When an entire head separates there is a pretty good chance that the slide, barrel, action... was not fully into battery, and yet the round fired. This is much the same as hugely over spec on headspace in a rifle. In a rifle, assuming the firing pin is long enough, and the extractor isn't holding the case against the boltface, big headspace will result in a stretched case head, and total separation (or nearly so, with a ring of thin brass at the stretched spot). Again, thats in contrast to plain ol high pressure, which blows out the weak spot (unsupported spot) at the feed ramp area, but doesn't stretch the case. The same would hold true if the pistol was not quite into battery and a discharge occurred.

So... we might have an issue with the pistol. There's a coin toss good chance of it. Sorry to say that, ya know I love my Kahrs, but... it could be.

Glad the sideplate blew out,relieving pressure that was building up in the mag well (and couldn't escape with the mag still being in there). The other parts that broke also suggest a BOOM. It remains to be seen if there was ammo or pistol at fault.

sounds like you might have it there. I had a squib one time on a 380 and it did just like you mentioned and did not operate the action. Hertzers ammo through an LCP.

Like someone else mentioned I thought about weighing the rounds after that but haven't as of yet. One thing though is to inspect the rounds that you are shooting. Last range trip I was with the wife and she was loading a magazine and said "look at this." The darn primer was put into a brand new round "BACKWARDS ! " :eek:

I'm glad she noticed it looked different. What would have happened if she had the firing pin hit a primer that was pointing backward???:confused:

[RichC]

Thanks for the information. I have determined that it was not a squib, there is no damage to the barrel that can be seen with the eye. The comment from Jfootin is interesting. I called Kahr early this morning. I have been issued an RMA and the CM9 is on its way back to Kahr via Mr FedEx. I am going to back off and let Kahr determine what they think happened. Thanks for all the input.

[CJB]

I know u now people are never going to do that, I certainly would not. we take chances every day, that is just part of life. One would really hav eto know alot about any box of ammo he buys even. as to what is the exact weight in the first place etc. I just don;'t think anyone can forsee a kaboom, yes a squib maybe but not a kaboom. With hearing protectros on today that work so good even a squib load is hard to feel, recoil wise would be an indication but again depends on if ur rapid firings or piddling around to.

Just shoot the fokker like u stole it, 99.995% will never encounter a squib or kaboom, This unlucky fella was the other missing %. Kahr will get him right.

If you pull an empty from the chamber, the rule is, check for a lodged bullet.

[CJB]

Yeah, but does the striker hit a snap cap? Or is it designed to not come out far enough to fire the bullet when not in battery?

I think you'll find that the striker is long enough, because the case head is held against the breechface by the extractor.

In that instance, should the case fire, the case head will move backward with the breechface, while the case walls, from the pressure within, will be momentarily stuck to the chamber walls. That results in a total, or near total, head separation.

I played with this a bit on my two PM45's. I dont think they'd fire when dangerously out of being fully "in battery". However... that is not to say that a slightly out of spec pistol _might_ fire when quite nearly out of battery. Remember - the reason we have a locked action at firing time, is to control the pressure, which would otherwise rip the head off the cartridge. We need to allow the bullet to escape the barrel, pressure to drop, before the parts are allowed to unlock, finally separate, and extraction to begin. Should that initial, say... 1/16 inch of travel, and the associated barrel time be lost... the pistol could do blow a case head.

I'd expect an issue with the trigger bar and or striker cocking nub, or the cam, as the basic locking/unlocking is more or less fixed. Its just a matter of the striker being cocked and released at point "X" of slide position.

[CJB]

Like someone else mentioned I thought about weighing the rounds

BTW, I didn't suggest doing that, just said it was feasible as a test. I think they have other safeguards in place to prevent double charges, and missed/low charges - while more common - announce themselves thought failure to cycle the action.

[JFootin]

Good point about the locked action, CJB.

Kahr will figure it out, and they have replacement parts for whatever is out of spec. I hope they will give a clear explanation of what caused it, but they will probably just list parts replaced and smith operations performed. CYB, you know.