Stopping Power - What do LEO's Use?

[Ubaldo99]

I apologize in advance if this topic has already been covered, but reading several recent posts has raised this question in my mind: Stopping power of chambered rounds...Are JHP's superior to FMJ's... and what do LEO's use? Are LEO's even permitted to use JHP rounds?

[TriggerMan]

I apologize in advance if this topic has already been covered, but reading several recent posts has raised this question in my mind: Stopping power of chambered rounds...Are JHP's superior to FMJ's... and what do LEO's use? Are LEO's even permitted to use JHP rounds?While the whole issue of "stopping power" will undoubtedly be discussed in anecdotes and lead to a caliber war, I can say for sure the LEOs use HP. There are lots of rounds which are specifically marketed as LE ONLY.

HPs attempt to avoid over penetration. They expand and deliver more energy to the inside of the target. They are safer in that innocent bystanders will not be hit but also it will take fewer shots to stop a threat.

Certain rounds in the Winchester Ranger line and the Federal HST line are only sold to LE. There are others.

It is possible to buy them if a dealer gets an over run on an unfullfilled order. I buy 'em.

[beatlesfan]

I apologize in advance if this topic has already been covered, but reading several recent posts has raised this question in my mind: Stopping power of chambered rounds...Are JHP's superior to FMJ's... and what do LEO's use? Are LEO's even permitted to use JHP rounds?

A jhp will have more stopping power because all of its energy is transferred to the target. A fmj has the potential of punching through, thus wasting energy on whatever is behind your target.

Yes, leos use jhp. The military uses fmj but I believe it's because of rules, not preference.

Sent from my Nook Tablet CM7 using Tapatalk.

[TriggerMan]

A jhp will have more stopping power because all of its energy is transferred to the target. A fmj has the potential of punching through, thus wasting energy on whatever is behind your target.

Yes, leos use jhp. The military uses fmj but I believe it's because of rules, not preference.

Sent from my Nook Tablet CM7 using Tapatalk.from Wikipedia


Legality

The Hague Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_(1899_and_1907)) of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet#cite_note-hague-iii-2) This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions), but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_Declaration_of_1868), which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.
Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of civilian and police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police) ammunition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammunition), due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet#Bullet), and the increased speed of incapacitation. In many jurisdictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction), even ones such as the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), where expanding ammunition is generally prohibited, it is illegal to hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting) certain types of game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_(food)) with ammunition that does not expand

[mser]

I'm issued and carry a Glock 21 as a duty weapon. Off duty I carry either a PM9, M&P 45C or Kimber Ultra CDP II. As a duty round I'm issued Speer Gold Dot 200 grain +P GDHP. For off duty I carry the same round in my 45's and the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P GDHP in the PM9.

[Ubaldo99]

Thank you, Mser, for your response. Those are some stout rounds.

[whitemule]

I'm issued and carry a Glock 21 as a duty weapon. Off duty I carry either a PM9, M&P 45C or Kimber Ultra CDP II. As a duty round I'm issued Speer Gold Dot 200 grain +P GDHP. For off duty I carry the same round in my 45's and the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P GDHP in the PM9.

Hey, MSER, thanks for the post. I'm curious are those the Short Barrel Gold Dots or the standard +P GDs that you carry in the PM9?

[yote]

We are issued Speer Gold Dot JHPs (180 grain 40 cal). Required to use the same in our off duty pistols.

FMJs often do not expand and can overpenetrate.

[knkali]

the potential for an HP rnd to hang up is greater than FMJ rnd. Have to get a rnd out of the hole first before worrying about balistics. I threw this out there b/c I use FMJ for my SD rnds. I shoot FMJ and train with it so I carry it. Flame suit is on. I know HP is probably better. Does anyone have gel results of 40 and 45 cal shot at 7 feet? Does the closeness of the rnd to target deminish the HP function? Or does it still penetrate but leaves a bigger wound.

[wyntrout]

Due to availability/price, I switched from Bonded Remington Golden Sabers to Speer Gold Dots. I use the Short Barrel version for my Kahrs. They are designed to give the same performance from a shorter barrel.

9mm: 124-gr GD SB +P
.40 S&W: 165-gr GD I chose the 165-gr weight and the SB is only available in 180-grain
.45 ACP: 230-gr GD SB

I also buy the 50-round boxes of Gold Dots because they are cheaper for practice and to use in my 5" .45's.

Speer Gold Dot Ammo: http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

Ballistics: http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Actual Testing Videos of Windshield/Denim/Gelatin: http://www.kiesler.com/videodetail.aspx?id=1534

The BONDED Remington Golden Sabers are great, but became hard to find. If you consider that, be sure that you get the Bonded Remington Golden Sabers. BJHP is Brass Jacketed Hollow Point. The BONDED stuff has a golden label on the box:

http://www.remingtonle.com/ammo/gshpj_b.htm

I've seen the regular Golden Sabers listed as Bonded because of the BJHP. Look at the Box or the product number, which has a "B" in it.

For "real world" chronograph testing and muzzle energy comparisons, check out Ballistics by the Inch:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/index.html

Wynn:)

[Barth]

I apologize in advance if this topic has already been covered, but reading several recent posts has raised this question in my mind: Stopping power of chambered rounds...Are JHP's superior to FMJ's... and what do LEO's use? Are LEO's even permitted to use JHP rounds?

I only shoot LE ammo in my autos.
Most folks don't use FMJ for anything except target loads.
High tech bullets come in all varieties depending on the purpose.
http://le.atk.com/

Generally speaking;
1) Most State and Federal LE agencies switch contracts between
Federal, Speer and Winchester depending on price.
2) Most officers are issued Speer GDHP, Federal HST or Winchester Ranger HP.

I'm not in law enforcement.
But I did spend last night at a Holiday Inn Express!
http://www.shadowtour.com/Assets/Holiday+Inn+Express+Logo+212+x+123.jpg
http://www.northwestshootersupply.com/images/products/detail/GoldDotAmmoBeautyShot.4.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aHHKanqrkY0/SF3TodUE_nI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/GQGYC6nQ0NQ/s400/hst2.jpghttp://silentiumllc.com/images/ranger.jpg

[hss.strat]

LEO use JHP. I agree 100% with Barth.

The only exception I can think of is New Jersey. The ONLY state (that I know of) that actually outlawed hollow point ammunition. Including their law enforcement. Don't travel to NJ with a gun loaded with HP.

[knkali]

LEO use JHP. I agree 100% with Barth.

The only exception I can think of is New Jersey. The ONLY state (that I know of) that actually outlawed hollow point ammunition. Including their law enforcement. Don't travel to NJ with a gun loaded with HP.

wonder why

[ripley16]

The two rounds I've seen used most are the ubiquitous Gold Dot, a great round trusted for it's consistency and quality and the newer Winchester PDX1.

[Longitude Zero]

230 grain Federal HST JHP's.

[espresso]

I also buy the 50-round boxes of Gold Dots because they are cheaper for practice and to use in my 5" .45's.

Wynn:)

I've looked around town and haven't been able to find any 50 Rd boxes of self defense ammo (9mm) other than WWB from Wally world. Are you buying this at a brick n mortar store or online?

[Bill K]

This is probably just urban legend but I've seen written that ball ammo winds up being more lethal because it takes more shots to stop the action and with pass through more bleeding out. Make any sense?

[wyntrout]

I've looked around town and haven't been able to find any 50 Rd boxes of self defense ammo (9mm) other than WWB from Wally world. Are you buying this at a brick n mortar store or online?

I haven't looked locally. You can find LE-type 50-round boxes of Duty ammo at gun shows and online. The Short-Barrel version is only available in 20-round boxes at $1 to $2 a bullet, depending on the seller. That stuff is usually marked up a lot. I try to get the short barrel version for as close to $20 a box as I can. The duty ammo can be found for $27, give or take a few bucks, or more... online. You have to search and see who has what you want and the best prices, including shipping and no tax. Some sellers only sell to LE or military... active or retired.

Sometimes you hear of good deals here on the forum. I try to pass along any deals I find, but have found some good buys mentioned here.

From time to time, Cabela's has $20 off coupons or Free shipping on orders over $99 or $150... varies. Sometimes they do that and have stuff on sale or clearance, too. When I can meet all of my objectives on good deals.

If you're buying a case, or half a case, or just enough to meet the dollar limit, you can get free shipping or better.

When I buy defense ammo, I buy the Duty stuff in 50-round boxes for the range and longer barreled guns, and the Short Barrel version for CCW.

Here are some online sellers. The prices vary and are not always bargains, but some place to start. They are not in any order... cheapest or whatever. I've used ammoengine, but they aren't very inclusive or exhaustive... leaving a lot to be desired.

http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/9mm

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/browse/shooting-ammunition-handgun-ammunition/_/N-1100189 *** coupon now $5 shipping on orders >$99.

http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=hotpig27&ct=65200

http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammunition/9mm-9x19

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/s/c/scgunguy/rangerlist.htm

http://www.a1ammo.com/ammo-form/index.cfm?CFID=21697483&CFTOKEN=38661149

http://www.kylesgunshop.com/store.php?seller=KylesGunshop&navt1=50216&per=5&num=5

http://www.ammoman.com/

http://www.gtdist.com/Category.aspx?Category=GUNAM

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/sitemap/ammo-and-shooting.aspx?d=121

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ammo.html

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/1

This is not by any means a complete list. You can Google or search for the ammo you want. It takes time to find what you want at the price you want, but it's a place to start.

Save your own bookmarks and "join" their news letters or deal alerts, too.

Wynn:) I copied this and posted it under the Ammunition Sub-Forum, too. If I think of any more, I'll post them at my Ammunition thread... and anyone can add theirs, too, keeping the thread bumped from time to time:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=136527#post136527



.

[DKD]

KNKALI,

Your question regarding FMJ bullets VS HP is bit more complicated. Yes FMJ over penetrate, however a 9mm FMJ vs a 45 ACP FMJ given equal muzzle energy...the 45 wins hand down as far as stopping power. This is due to the mass of the bullet and its bullet diameter, which has the ability to transmit its enegy more effectivley to the target.
Second point... when two shots are in the same immediate area, there are two factors one encounters, first is not only the size of the permanent wound channel, there is also the temporary wound channel called the crushed cavity which disrupts the surrounding tissues and vital organs as well. In any event hollow points do a better job than FMJ's and tender to penetrate a bit less to minimize the effects of over penetration in unitended secondary targets.

[espresso]

thanks wyntrout, I'll look online or check the local gun show that comes aroud here a few times a year.

[kayl]

Part time LEO here-
Current agency issues the 180gr .40 Gold Dot
I carry the 147gr 9mm Gold Dot in my CM9 and the Gold Dot Short Barrel .38 in my J-Frame.

My former full time agency issued the 230gr .45 Hydra-Shok

In my experience, Gold Dot is the most common LE used round.

[TriggerMan]

This is probably just urban legend but I've seen written that ball ammo winds up being more lethal because it takes more shots to stop the action and with pass through more bleeding out. Make any sense?Better ask, "Lethal to whom?" What is happening while you try to add to the round count. Each over penetrating FMJ has an attorney's name on it.

[DeaconKC]

Issued carry rounds for us are Federal Hydrashocks, .40 S&W 180 grain.

[hss.strat]

@BillK,

The question of lethality is going to be open to urban legend. There's millions of factors that make up the likelihood that any one person will survive any situation. Blood loss may be a more likely killer than internal tissue damage and force transfer into the target. But I'm sure everyone here agrees with me when I say that I don't envision shooting someone just to kill them. If I'm going to shoot a human being it is going to be to stop them from putting my life or another life in peril. So if you're looking at it from that perspective, what is going to stop someone sooner, the obvious answer will be the bullet that transfers 100% of it's energy into the target and does the most soft tissue damage upon entry. Which is the JHP.

[ORSalesRep]

While the whole issue of "stopping power" will undoubtedly be discussed in anecdotes and lead to a caliber war, I can say for sure the LEOs use HP. There are lots of rounds which are specifically marketed as LE ONLY.

HPs attempt to avoid over penetration. They expand and deliver more energy to the inside of the target. They are safer in that innocent bystanders will not be hit but also it will take fewer shots to stop a threat.

Certain rounds in the Winchester Ranger line and the Federal HST line are only sold to LE. There are others.

It is possible to buy them if a dealer gets an over run on an unfullfilled order. I buy 'em.

I have purchased Federal HST online and I am not a LEO. Right now though my preference is the Winchester PDX1 line. The core and Jacket are bonded and if it is good enough to pass the FBI testing and win the contract from them, it is good enough for me.

[jocko]

Part time LEO here-
Current agency issues the 180gr .40 Gold Dot
I carry the 147gr 9mm Gold Dot in my CM9 and the Gold Dot Short Barrel .38 in my J-Frame.

My former full time agency issued the 230gr .45 Hydra-Shok

In my experience, Gold Dot is the most common LE used round.

our state of Indiana carrys 124 gold dots in theire G17..

[Bill K]

@BillK,

The question of lethality is going to be open to urban legend. There's millions of factors that make up the likelihood that any one person will survive any situation. Blood loss may be a more likely killer than internal tissue damage and force transfer into the target. But I'm sure everyone here agrees with me when I say that I don't envision shooting someone just to kill them. If I'm going to shoot a human being it is going to be to stop them from putting my life or another life in peril. So if you're looking at it from that perspective, what is going to stop someone sooner, the obvious answer will be the bullet that transfers 100% of it's energy into the target and does the most soft tissue damage upon entry. Which is the JHP.

Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not advocating ball ammo (well maybe .380 winter time with folks wearing heavy clothing). Just asking the question.

And yes, we shoot to stop the action. When the action stops the shooting stops - in the ideal world.

[knkali]

Better ask, "Lethal to whom?" What is happening while you try to add to the round count. Each over penetrating FMJ has an attorney's name on it.

Yep. Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z9hv5dY_Ws&feature=related

[ltxi]

This is probably just urban legend but I've seen written that ball ammo winds up being more lethal because it takes more shots to stop the action and with pass through more bleeding out. Make any sense?

Not to me.

[QuercusMax]

The question of lethality is going to be open to urban legend. There's millions of factors that make up the likelihood that any one person will survive any situation.

I think that hss has hit the nail on the head, at least with the excerpt above.

The debate on this subject goes on and on, often supported by various mathematics, photos and diagrams on every discussion board I have looked at. Various calibers, bullet types, and brands are often touted as creating the largest cavity, etc. But in the end, we all know that a well-placed .22 shot will be far more effective than a poorly-aimed large-caliber hollow-point.

This debate reminds me of various car ads that claim their car is the safest because of of having more air bags or a better result in some staged crash test, but in a real crash there are so many factors in play that all those theoretical advantages fade away.

Put another way, if someone comes after me with any gun, I'm going to be pretty worried regardless of what type of ammo he is using - or even caliber.

[wyntrout]

The movies have long given the mistaken impression that a bullet through the heart or nearby will drop a BG in the blink of an eye. The ONLY thing that will do that is a good hit to the central nervous system... brain or spinal column high enough to cut off the arms and legs mobility. A sufficiently motivated BG... or one hyped up on drugs... can still kill you with a knife OR a gun. It's not the f***ing movies. A .22 through the heart can be "overlooked" long enough for someone to finish the task at hand. That's why you don't wait and see if the last shot is stopping the BG... you keep shooting until he has stopped being a threat... as lying on the floor. It's also why larger caliber bullets that get their attention are better man stoppers!

It's like shooting zombies... if chest shots don't work, why keep shooting center of mass... armor?? Head shot = lights out!

Wynn:)

[TriggerMan]

I have purchased Federal HST online and I am not a LEO. Right now though my preference is the Winchester PDX1 line. The core and Jacket are bonded and if it is good enough to pass the FBI testing and win the contract from them, it is good enough for me.My experience with gov't contracts is that they go to the lowest (cheapest) bidder, not always the best product. The shape of the Winchester PDX1 has been a problem in a few guns, usually polishing clears that up. I've tried PDX in 45ACP and they fed well.

[hss.strat]

Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not advocating ball ammo (well maybe .380 winter time with folks wearing heavy clothing). Just asking the question.

And yes, we shoot to stop the action. When the action stops the shooting stops - in the ideal world.

Understood. Also, I wasn't trying to make a PSA for the "I shoot to stop the threat" mantra. Sufficed to say (and before I get misinterpreted again) I agree with Wynn. A slow bleed out takes time, which is what you don't have in a life or death situation.

[JFootin]

Understood. Also, I wasn't trying to make a PSA for the "I shoot to stop the threat" mantra. Sufficed to say (and before I get misinterpreted again) I agree with Wynn. A slow bleed out takes time, which is what you don't have in a life or death situation.

Seems like exploding bullets would be the answer for a quick stop. The liberals and lawyers need to get out of it. Banning HP bullets and stuff! A gun is a deadly weapon. A man stopper. Anything that can improve the quickness and effectiveness of it will save LEOs lives. JMHO.

[Barth]

Seems like exploding bullets would be the answer for a quick stop. The liberals and lawyers need to get out of it. Banning HP bullets and stuff! A gun is a deadly weapon. A man stopper. Anything that can improve the quickness and effectiveness of it will save LEOs lives. JMHO.

http://nicksagan.blogs.com/nick_sagan_online/images/star_trek_relativity0d118f.jpg

[MW surveyor]

Those phased 40 mega watt lasers always work!

[muggsy]

I apologize in advance if this topic has already been covered, but reading several recent posts has raised this question in my mind: Stopping power of chambered rounds...Are JHP's superior to FMJ's... and what do LEO's use? Are LEO's even permitted to use JHP rounds?

Stop worrying about stopping power and keep shooting until the perp stops moving. Works every time it's tried.

[OldLincoln]

A lot of folks like me just want to see a relative comparison of striking power between calibers. I saw the Hickok45 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPSDjJQIv4) where he shoots several at the same steel swinging target one after the other. It is not scientific nor indicative of anything except one caliber seems to hit the plate with greater energy than another.

[muggsy]

A lot of folks like me just want to see a relative comparison of striking power between calibers. I saw the Hickok45 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPSDjJQIv4) where he shoots several at the same steel swinging target one after the other. It is not scientific nor indicative of anything except one caliber seems to hit the plate with greater energy than another.

How hard it hits is no where near as important as where it hits.

[joshh]

as far as "stopping power" is concerned the theory is the more energy transferred and larger the wound cavity = more stopping power. an expanding round is going to do both as well as reducing the issue of passing thru the target and doing unintentional harm. leos can and (as youve read here) use hollow points because they are more effective. the feds have gone with the win pdx1 line for a few reasons and is what most leo's i know are carrying and is what i carry now (few yrs) too. here is a quote from their site:
"The new Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1, which was chosen by the FBI as their primary service round, is now available in a full line of popular handgun calibers. The Bonded PDX1 is engineered to maximize terminal ballistics, as defined by the demanding FBI test protocol, which simulates real-world threats. The new Winchester Bonded PDX is offered in 9mm, 40 Smith & Wesson, 45 automatic and .38 special. "

[TheTman]

I don't understand this concept of for LEO use only. I could see if maybe they were exploding bullets or would go through a bullet proof vest, but the ones I've seen are just hollow point bullets. Are our lives not as important as those of a LEO? Should I not have access to the best possible ammunition to save my life and those of my loved ones and friends? Of course I think LEO's should have the best ammo available, but why am I not allowed to buy the same ammo? What makes it so special that only LEO's can have it?

That reminds me of an episode of COPS where they busted a person for selling nickle bags of marijuana, and one of the officers was having a total meltdown cause he found a shotgun shell marked For LEO use only. The alleged dealer was being very cooperative, and offered no resistance, and definately not going to get into a shoot out or anything, but the one officer was really having a hissy fit over one shotgun shell. I'd not heard of Shotgun shells for LEO use only before. How much more lethal can you make one? Seems like 00 buckshot should stop about anything it's pointed at.

[Barth]

I don't understand this concept of for LEO use only. I could see if maybe they were exploding bullets or would go through a bullet proof vest, but the ones I've seen are just hollow point bullets. Are our lives not as important as those of a LEO? Should I not have access to the best possible ammunition to save my life and those of my loved ones and friends? Of course I think LEO's should have the best ammo available, but why am I not allowed to buy the same ammo? What makes it so special that only LEO's can have it?

That reminds me of an episode of COPS where they busted a person for selling nickle bags of marijuana, and one of the officers was having a total meltdown cause he found a shotgun shell marked For LEO use only. The alleged dealer was being very cooperative, and offered no resistance, and definately not going to get into a shoot out or anything, but the one officer was really having a hissy fit over one shotgun shell. I'd not heard of Shotgun shells for LEO use only before. How much more lethal can you make one? Seems like 00 buckshot should stop about anything it's pointed at.

Some believe it's just marketing.
LE ammo is not illegal to buy or have by non LE folks - like me.
It's simply manufacturer policy to not sell directly to citizens.
The LE ammo generally comes in 50 round boxes.
So it's usually much less expensive, per bullet, than the civilian packaged 20 SD ammo.
Plus I'm not at all sure that Speer Duty GDHP isn't identical to regular GDHP.

Marketing is a funny thing.
And knowledge really is power.

A) Storm Lake G27 40-9mm 3.46" Conversion Barrel = $160
B) Storm Lake G27 40-9mm 4.16" Conversion Barrel = $175
C) Storm Lake G23 40-9mm 4.02" Conversion Barrel = $160

Since G23 barrels drop in and work in G27s guess what I did???
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo26/9f/e0/642241d6d012__1329242011000.jpg

[yatyas42]

We are currently issued the ranger SXT or PXT? 147gr (9mm). I carry that in my MandP on duty and my CW off duty. Last year we were issued the Speer Gold Dots. I think that we go with which ever one we get a better deal on, cause I think there really about the same as far as lethality and reliability go. I think we had some Federal HST's a few years ago too.

[Russ]

I carry Gold Dot 9 mm 124 grain jhp +P short barrel in my Beretta Nano. Very expensive and I have only shot 30 rounds but all the reports I have read Speer makes hands down the best bonded bullet that will consistently retain most of its weight upon impact and more law enforcement use Speer than any other brand which is enough for me to carry Speer Gold Dot.

Price is a non issue for a carry round. My round is more than $1 each and if it was $5 and the best I would still purchase.

Russ

[jocko]

pretty hard to beat the corbon all copper b arnes bullet also i their dpx load. retains all of its weight and full petal expansion. not cheap either. MOst good ammo is not cheap in price, but normally high in quality.

[Barth]

I carry Gold Dot 9 mm 124 grain jhp +P short barrel in my Beretta Nano. Very expensive and I have only shot 30 rounds but all the reports I have read Speer makes hands down the best bonded bullet that will consistently retain most of its weight upon impact and more law enforcement use Speer than any other brand which is enough for me to carry Speer Gold Dot.

Price is a non issue for a carry round. My round is more than $1 each and if it was $5 and the best I would still purchase.

Russ

Speer GDHP +P 124 gr and Winchester Ranger T-Series +P+ 127 gr are my favorites.
But Ranger Ts are not bonded.
I just ordered some Federal 9mm HST 124 gr, but can't find anything but standard pressure.
So I actually agree that GDHPs may well be the best all around SD ammo I can get my hands on.
Certainly one of the best, any way you want to cut the cake.

The Speer 9mm Short Barrel is designed for 3.5" barrels.
I think my G27 is 3.46"?.
So I upgraded my G27 with a G23 Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel.
Now I've got a full 4.02" barrel.
And use LE Duty GDHP 124 gr +P ammo in the 50 round box.
They run 1,220 fps and 410 E from a 4" barrel.
Strangely, that's just about a perfect match for my 2" 357 mag snub nose.
With very little recoil and 11 rounds.

I'm loving this new world of high tech ammo.

[mser]

Hey, MSER, thanks for the post. I'm curious are those the Short Barrel Gold Dots or the standard +P GDs that you carry in the PM9?


I carry the standard +P GDHP in my PM9.

[U.S. Patriot]

The problem with FMJ ammo is over penetration. Instead of mushrooming and dumping all of its energy inside the body, it normally makes a through and through wound. The one downside to JHP ammo is there is a chance it may become cloged with clothing and act as FMJ does. One reason Hornady came up with the Critical Defense line of ammo. I reccomend people who carry a pistol chambered in .380 to use FMJ ammo. Reason being is because it is a light and fairly slow moving round. So, with JHP ammo, you may not get proper mushrooming. Especially out of a shorter barrel.

In my fullsize guns I carry 147 grain Winchester Ranger SXT. In my PM9 I carry 115 grain Hornady Critical Defense. I like carying lighter ammo in pocket pistols. The extra velocity makes up for the it being a lighter load.

[joshh]

In my fullsize guns I carry 147 grain Winchester Ranger SXT. In my PM9 I carry 115 grain Hornady Critical Defense. I like carying lighter ammo in pocket pistols. The extra velocity makes up for the it being a lighter load.

1st off im not lookin to argue & think you should use whatever works best for you, but according to winchester & other "experts" you got it bass ackwards. they say use the 147gr in shorter barrels because the lighter loads are out of the barrel before the powder finishes burning and the pressure gets wasted. i initially carried the +p in my pm9 but switched to the 147gr after hearing this and trying some homemade tests that proved enough to me that the 147gr performed the way i wanted.

[U.S. Patriot]

1st off im not lookin to argue & think you should use whatever works best for you, but according to winchester & other "experts" you got it bass ackwards. they say use the 147gr in shorter barrels because the lighter loads are out of the barrel before the powder finishes burning and the pressure gets wasted. i initially carried the +p in my pm9 but switched to the 147gr after hearing this and trying some homemade tests that proved enough to me that the 147gr performed the way i wanted.

Show me where these "experts", said so. You realize it depends on the powder they use. Some powders burn slower than others. So what did you do for your homemade tests? I'll be doing some testing with my friends chronograph this spring. I'll take that over any "expert" wisdom on the interwebz.

[joshh]

Show me where these "experts", said so. You realize it depends on the powder they use. Some powders burn slower than others. So what did you do for your homemade tests? I'll be doing some testing with my friends chronograph this spring. I'll take that over any "expert" wisdom on the interwebz.
chrono measures speed, not effectiveness of rounds. use what u like bro. my homemade "tests" were us firing the pm9 with different rounds at pumpkins and water jugs at close range (15') with a layer of denim. heres the quote from win. rep, and my friends who sell vests and police equipment havent given me anything in writing but were cool enough to let me (and my pm9) participate in some vest tests all agreed that the 147gr was best suited for short barrel pistols. but who knows, next yr someone might (and probably will) have something better. use what works for you, this works for me.

"When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.
We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.
Sincerely,
Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition
I hope this helps"


(stole that pic of the pdx from google, nice jjob to whoever took it!)

[U.S. Patriot]

chrono measures speed, not effectiveness of rounds. use what u like bro. my homemade "tests" were us firing the pm9 with different rounds at pumpkins and water jugs at close range (15') with a layer of denim. heres the quote from win. rep, and my friends who sell vests and police equipment havent given me anything in writing but were cool enough to let me (and my pm9) participate in some vest tests all agreed that the 147gr was best suited for short barrel pistols. but who knows, next yr someone might (and probably will) have something better. use what works for you, this works for me.

"When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.
We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.
Sincerely,
Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition
I hope this helps"


(stole that pic of the pdx from google, nice jjob to whoever took it!)

How can you say that velocity does not correlate to performance of a round? You do realize that rounds have to travel at a certain velocity to properly expand, do you not? Say for example, Hornady claims x FPS from the muzzle for their 115 grain Critical Defense, which is what I carry in my PM9. If you get a similar velocity using a chronograph, then they are performing as stated out of a short barrel. I do not know what "vests" you tested. If a vest is rated to stop a 9mm rounds. How in the hell does that prove anything? As for what was stated by Winchester. It goes back to what powder you use. Anyone that reloads will tell you that. That's why I use the powder I do for my reloads, because it's a fast burning powder. As for you homemade tests. Pumpkins and water jugs do not mimic the human body. The closest you are going to get is ballistic gelatin or a pig corpse. I think you are basing to much of you information off of Interwebz babble.

[joshh]

How can you say that velocity does not correlate to performance of a round? You do realize that rounds have to travel at a certain velocity to properly expand, do you not? Say for example, Hornady claims x FPS from the muzzle for their 115 grain Critical Defense, which is what I carry in my PM9. If you get a similar velocity using a chronograph, then they are performing as stated out of a short barrel. I do not know what "vests" you tested. If a vest is rated to stop a 9mm rounds. How in the hell does that prove anything? As for what was stated by Winchester. It goes back to what powder you use. Anyone that reloads will tell you that. That's why I use the powder I do for my reloads, because it's a fast burning powder. As for you homemade tests. Pumpkins and water jugs do not mimic the human body. The closest you are going to get is ballistic gelatin or a pig corpse. I think you are basing to much of you information off of Interwebz babble.

obviously my tests werent scientific, and i never claimed them to be. i understand that velocity has an effect on the round (never said it didnt), as does the weight of the projectile. id rather be hit by a ping pong ball goin 100mph than a baseball going 35mph. from how it was explained to me, its all about energy transfer and the heavier round was doing better from short barrel pistols. i dont claim to be an expert and have simply passed along the info that i have been given as well as what my results have been. the "interwebz babble" i passed along came from the Senior Technical Specialist @
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition. so i'll take his advice along with what ive experienced 1st hand, but nobody says you have to...

[TheTman]

I like to go by FPS and FPE when choosing ammo I've not used before. Seems like when you compare 147 to 124 or 115 gr bullets, the lighter bullets are faster and deliver more energy than the 147 grain do. The 147 grain apparently does better shooting thru obstacles, like car windshields and sheetrock and such due to its heavier mass, which is why some agencies use them, but in real life, I don't expect to be shooting anyone in a car, unless they are trying to run me over. I think the 9x19 was designed for the lighter bullets, and using the 147 grain is trying to make it behave more like a .45, slow and heavy. In my own testing, with a Beretta 92 and a Star Model 30, the lighter bullets tended to give tighter groups than the 147 grain. That was years ago, and perhaps the loading tables we were using weren't up to snuff on the 147 gr bullets. I guess it depends whether you want your 9mm to behave more like a .357, or a .45. You'd think with all the power the .357 delivers, it might really do well with the 158 gr bullets, but according to the stuff I've read, the 125 gr is the number 1 manstopper of any caliber. So I tend to go fast and light in all my ammo except for the 230 gr .45, which is something like 1 percent less deadly than the 125 gr .357. But use what you like, and what your gun shoots best. Bullet weight doesn't mean squat if you're not hitting where you're aiming.

[yote]

To calculate energy, E = mv2. The velocity is squared, so it becomes more important than weight/mass. However, bigger bullets expand larger and make bigger holes.

[Ninjatarian]

Just two quick things- Watch this videos- there's no reason to ever carry FMJ
FMJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Sh9oQDJc
HP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bV23DFgYW8&feature=channel

Second, heres a great run down of calibers and which ammo works best for each. Tons of great into at the top if you have the time too-
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

[TriggerMan]

Just two quick things- Watch this videos- there's no reason to ever carry FMJ
FMJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Sh9oQDJc
HP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bV23DFgYW8&feature=channel

Second, heres a great run down of calibers and which ammo works best for each. Tons of great into at the top if you have the time too-
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

The first two videos are "tests" using carbines and .40 S&W. That has zip to do with 3 inch barrel CC weapons done in 9mm.

The last link is good but a bit dated.

[Ninjatarian]

The first two videos are "tests" using carbines and .40 S&W. That has zip to do with 3 inch barrel CC weapons done in 9mm.

The last link is good but a bit dated.

1st- Barrel length doesnt matter- Its an experimental controll (both use the same barrel). In a shorter barrel you would have the same results, just less draumatic. 2nd- Caliber was never specified. Given that .40 is the most popular LEO cartidge, its an ideal example.

[jg rider]

Have you seen these

http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/LE/Pages/ammunition-testing.aspx

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

[CJB]

Handguns? Stopping power? Poor at best.
Ya want stopping power, carry a large bore shotgun.... but I digress.

If it functions in your pistol, use it. If some flying ashtray functions, use that.

Prayer helps too. So does a real mean attitude.

[Barth]

Handguns? Stopping power? Poor at best.
Ya want stopping power, carry a large bore shotgun.... but I digress.

If it functions in your pistol, use it. If some flying ashtray functions, use that.

Prayer helps too. So does a real mean attitude.

LOL.
Handguns are under powered by nature.
We carry them because we can't carry a AR or 12 gauge shotgun.
Carrying the biggest gun that you are proficient with will likely increase your chances of survival.
Following U.S. state and federal law enforcement's lead in gun and ammo selection makes sense.

Finding that balance of what we are good with, and are willing to carry on a daily basis, is the challenge we all face.

[JFootin]

LOL.
Handguns are under powered by nature.
We carry them because we can't carry a AR or 12 gauge shotgun.
Carrying the biggest gun that you are proficient with will likely increase your chances of survival.
Following U.S. state and federal law enforcement's lead in gun and ammo selection makes sense.

Finding that balance of what we are good with, and are willing to carry on a daily basis, is the challenge we all face.

That's why I am seriously considering a CW45. It is a very light, compact, easy to carry, sweet shooting gun that can launch 7 flying ashtrays at the BGs. And at < $350 out the door right now?!

[TD2K]

my husband carries a custom built 1911 .45ACP on most days, occasionally he'll carry a Glock 40 cal (I can't remember the model number) or a S&W M&P 40 cal. He always carries JHP.