Reliability of 380s

[Rufus]

When I go to forums for Kahr, Sig, Kel Tec, Ruger, etc. there seems to be quite a few discussions about the poor performance of 380s. I know that I just put my daughter's Taurus 380 in the shop for multiple FTEs, and hopefully she will eventually be able to shoot a box of 50 rounds without failure. I have a good friend who is looking to trade in his Ruger because of gun malfunctions. Is it me, or does there seem to be something about the 380 in general that causes problems. I'm certainly not a gunsmith, but I don't know anyone who has not had some problems with the pocket pistol 380s. I would think that one model would get some good reviews as far as reliability goes, but I can't seem to find one. Sure they can be fluffed and polished by a gunsmith or the manufacturer, but whether you pay $200.00 or $600.00 there ought to be the expectation that the gun will be there when you need it. Let's face it, most folks do not get these as range guns, but rather get them for personal protection. When you have a gun that has multiple failures, you quickly lose faith in it.

[Tinman507]

Given what you describe, there is no way I am givng my wife or daughter a .380.
I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I gave someone I love a gun that may or may not work when needed.
I know lots of folks here have great running 380's but many went through the ringer to get there.
Kahr seems to have gotten their act together but with the critical nature of who typically uses these guns, I will stick with what works flawlessly for now.

[cesande]

After reading a lot here I decided to go p380 and tried to make sure I had a volume dealer so that I would get a recent build piece.
Mine was built in mid dec 2011 from cheaper than dirt.
Then I spent a lot of time on prep and mag testing for nose dives.
Had premature slide lock in the first outings, but cleaned it up with a dremel and wool buffer and flitz (which after talking with kahr support I am told is exactly what they would d0)..

Since then mine has been very reliable for me!

Good luck

[Bill K]

Just my opinion and a gross generalization... Yes, there is something about pocket .380s that "causes problems". It is that they're built small and built light. Kinda like built on the engineering edge if you will. I have two pocket .380s (P3ATs) and the first did take some work to get up and running reliably, the second I bought was without issue out of the box. Also, some of the "problems" might have to do with the demographics of the folks that gravitate to pocket .380s.

[CPO15]

I've had, or have, the PPK, LCP, MDE and Kahr. Only two issues: LCP failed when intentionally limp-wristed and the Kahr needed replacement of recoil springs. Still have the MDE and the Kahr but still also have a glimmer of doubt based on what appears on the (always trustworthy) internet.

[muggsy]

I've had a Keltec P3AT that has been fully reliable since new. It has lousy sights and a terrible trigger, but it does go bang every time that the trigger is pulled. I plan to replace it with a Kahr P380, because of my experience with my CM9.

[Popeye]

I also have a Kel Tec P3at. It did have a few problems with stove pipes during the early break in period. After a fluff and buff the pistol has been more than I ever thought it could be as far as being reliable. It still has every original part in it that came from the factory. The pistol has over 800 rounds through it and I have not always treated it so kindly. I'm not a big fan of shooting it to much at the range,but it serves a purpose for when I need to deep CC, and the price was right. I'd never spend to much money for a .380 pistol because the round itself has it's limitations. That just me though and my story of the P3at and I'm sticking to it.:D

[Barth]

My personal opinion is when you go sub 3" barrel on an auto loader
reliability tends to suffer.
Full size .380 guns, for the most part, seem to function much better.
Even some .45s have issues with 3" barrels and slides.

I truly believe it's the micro size of the gun that's problematic.
Not the round.

[LaP]

I owned a Bersa .380 for a few years. It was dead-solid reliable and freakishly accurate. I put about 1500 rounds thru it and the only time it hiccuped was when I loaded it with truncated hardball. Every type of hollowpoint fed without any problems. Only downside was it's weight of 22 ounces.
I still weep when I think about selling it last year.:(

[Popeye]

Also had a satin nickle BT.380 (PPK clone) that was very reliable and accurate do to the straight blow back design I believe. I actually think there the best kept secret in the .380 market. Can't get much easier to field strip for cleaning. Saw one in the used gun case at the LGS around Christmas for $165 went back a week later with some money to take another look at it and as you might have guessed it was gone.:( Didn't really need it just wanted it.

[TriggerMan]

When I go to forums for Kahr, Sig, Kel Tec, Ruger, etc. there seems to be quite a few discussions about the poor performance of 380s. I know that I just put my daughter's Taurus 380 in the shop for multiple FTEs, and hopefully she will eventually be able to shoot a box of 50 rounds without failure. I have a good friend who is looking to trade in his Ruger because of gun malfunctions. Is it me, or does there seem to be something about the 380 in general that causes problems. I'm certainly not a gunsmith, but I don't know anyone who has not had some problems with the pocket pistol 380s. I would think that one model would get some good reviews as far as reliability goes, but I can't seem to find one. Sure they can be fluffed and polished by a gunsmith or the manufacturer, but whether you pay $200.00 or $600.00 there ought to be the expectation that the gun will be there when you need it. Let's face it, most folks do not get these as range guns, but rather get them for personal protection. When you have a gun that has multiple failures, you quickly lose faith in it.Nothing wrong with a Sig P238 if it has all the updates (RSA, SLIDE, Mags). Anything built in the last 9 months should be just fine. Mine has been 100% of of the box.

With small semi autos, user error is much higher. The rounds are reliable.

[kerby9mm]

Triggerman. I knew you were going to say what you said because.we both have p238's so I second the motion.

[Rufus]

I guess where I was going when I began this thread was whether there is a model of the 380 that a person can buy with a pretty good assurance that it will not spend more time at the gunsmith than at the range. I had a friend who was thinking about getting a Kimber 380, but backed out because of the threads that he read on the internet about it's tendency for FTEs. I wouldn't mind having a pocket gun, but I have to know that it will be there if I ever needed it. These types of guns only have a couple of purposes; for self defense or to show off to your buddies.

[Jeremiah/Az]

I have a Kahr P380 that I have had for 3 years that I bought new. It has never malfunctioned one time. I don't count rounds, but I know it's in the hundreds. It's a great little gun with very little recoil & is very accurate.:)

[ltxi]

I've never had a reliability problem with any quality .380. I currently own three...Colt Gov't Pocketlite, Colt Mustang Pocketlite, and a Sig P238.

[yqtszhj]

I have a old Colt Govt. Model .380 that has been completely reliable. It's a safe queen now because age has made it probably the most valuable handgun I own now.

I have an LCP .380 that never has a problem when clean and never a trouble running dirty until recently (after 800+ rounds). Now when I shoot some nasty Hertzers import ammo it fails to return to battery when it gets dirty then cools off. Probably needs a new recoil spring which I have but I just havent replaced it yet. It is not fun to shoot now because I've been shooting Kahr's too much and I'm spoiled.

[Cokeman]

Newsflash: pocket 9s do it too. It's the gun size, not bullet size.

[Cokeman]

I guess where I was going when I began this thread was whether there is a model of the 380 that a person can buy with a pretty good assurance that it will not spend more time at the gunsmith than at the range. I had a friend who was thinking about getting a Kimber 380, but backed out because of the threads that he read on the internet about it's tendency for FTEs. I wouldn't mind having a pocket gun, but I have to know that it will be there if I ever needed it. These types of guns only have a couple of purposes; for self defense or to show off to your buddies.

What Kimber .380?

[Popeye]

Rufus
I think one thing to remember is that quite often on some of these gun forums is, you more than likely hear more negative things about certain guns(in this case caliber) that is blown way out of proportion. Many times it is user error but don't try to tell them that. They'll look at you like your speaking in tounges or you have left your tin foil hat off to long and the aliens stole your friekin mind.
Seems as of late I've been hearing guys taking all sorts of power loads and bullet types and trying to shoot them through these little pistols when there not even broken in, and the owner isn't even accustomed to shooting the pistol yet. Is that not user error? Then they want to turn around and criticize the gun as being a POS. What ever happen to the days where people went out bought a couple boxs of there favorite practice ammo shot 200 rounds through it as suggested by many gun manufacturers and got to know the gun a little. I'm not saying these small pistols do not have there problems at times and there all created equal but from what I've read and some of the conversations I've over heard it's not always the pistols fault. Love them or hate them for what ever reason, but the Kel Tec p3at I own has been just as reliable as the G26 or PM9 I own after it's initial 200 round break in period. Still not a fun gun to shoot. I shot 50 break in rounds cleaned and followed that routing till I got to 200 rounds, then again I break all my pistols in like that reguardlees of brand caliber or frame size, steel or poly.. Is that overkill? I guess it could be considered that by many,and I'm cool with that, but I've never had a problem with any pistol I've ever owned. I'm cool with that also.
Just like my Harley. Broke it in doing oil changes at 100, 500, and 1000 miles when I first got it , rode it like I ride it. Don't beat it don't not beat it. Just gave it time, like my pistols for things to settle in before I gave them hell.:D

[Rufus]

Thanks for all your comments. I have two larger frame guns that I love (Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm and Kahr CW40). I really love these guns! They both go boom when you pull the trigger (every time) and they are very comfortable to shoot. The S&W is a range gun because of its large frame. The CW40 is a bit too big to use as a pocket gun, but fits very well in the car console, which is where I usually carry when I am out. I would love to have a good pocket gun, but I am scared off by the negative comments that I read about them. Frankly, I am leaning toward a small 9mm because of the price of the ammo, but would not rule out a 380. I will say that I have had the opportunity to shoot the Sig, and I loved it, but want something that is reliable. Maybe we could talk about what is the best pocket gun, rather than the problem guns!

[Popeye]

Some think the PM9 is a good pocket gun. I love mine it's my EDC,but a pocket gun for me it isn't. It does carry very well on the hip or in a jacket pocket. As you already know Kahr builds some very nice pistols.

[ltxi]

Thanks for all your comments. ......................Maybe we could talk about what is the best pocket gun, rather than the problem guns!

Now you've gone and done it...........lw J-frame//NAA min-mag. But I rarely pocket carry.

[Wolffire99]

My personal opinion is when you go sub 3" barrel on an auto loader
reliability tends to suffer.
.

Bingo.

There is a much more narrow window with which the recoil spring needs to have correct tension to function properly.

That being said my LCP has been 100% reliable and is what I carry 90% of the time.

Modern .380 ammo is performing to where 9mm ammo performed 10-15 years ago.

[wlc]

The P380 is pretty darn nice for pocket carry. It may take a little tinkering to get any of them to work well ( or maybe not). I think any of the better brands are capable of being very reliable. They all seem to be a little caught up with wanting to sell as many guns as they can while the market is so hot. Quality can suffer a little under these circumstances. My wife has a P380 which has been 100% for me. She had a couple of lockback issues when it was new. Kahr sent a new slide stop and she hasn't had any more problems. In my opinion, most of the 9mm's are a little big to be comfortable in my pocket. A PM9 or CM9 is quite comfortable for IWB carry with the right holster though.

[1radman]

The smaller 380s tend to have more problems.
My Bersa Thunder CC and CZ 83 are both 100% reliable and both accurate. The CZ with the DA/SA trigger is as accurate as the family Glocks and Kahrs and holds 12+1 rounds... Bought it used for $180...best gun buy ever for me.
It's not gonna go in a pocket but rides OK on the hip.

[Phillip]

I also began the 380 journey with the Kel Tec P3at that was 100% reliable. When I found out Kahr was producing the p380 I sold the Kel Tec because I love Kahr's. The only problem I had with the p380 was a bad box of foreign made bullets that I returned to store where they were purchased. 300 rounds later I still haven't had any problems beside the slide failing to lock back on occasions that really doesn't bother me.
I carry the 380 in a pocket during the summer months because the PM9 is a bit too heavy. In the winter I carry either the PM9 or P9 in an OWB holster under a jacket or vest.

[Ninjatarian]

The issue is with the ultra compact .380s, not .380s in general

My friend and I have had several 380s and this was our experience-

DB380 is know to pretty much be junk, any internet search turns that up
LCP hit and miss on reliability, low on features, uncomfortable to shoot rule it out
P3AT Same as LCP
P380 well... we all know the story there
Bodyguard known for light strikes and issues with firing pin breaking, laser issues
TCP Had issues at first, the new ones seem to be reliable. Its the only 380 my friend and I have had luck with so far. Still not comfy to shoot and wont handle hot ammo.
P238- really not any smaller than a PM9, not really in the same class as the others

Given dodgy reliability and already questionable 380 performance, its no longer an option I am interested in. I sold my 380s and probably wont buy another. Really need something small for in a pinch? Get an NAA in .22 mag- it will always go bang.

[cw45fan]

I cruise a lot of forums... My experience is that there are VERY few complaints about the Ruger LCP from the vast majority of owners (... over a mllion!!!...) who understand that it's a very light snappy gun by design. LCP lovers carry it because of smallness and convenience and understand it's trade-off.

I'm saying a majority of CCWers know that the likelihood of ever needing to actually fire a gun in an SD scenario is TINY so many choose their carry for comfort and reliability rather than high firepower.

My LCP has always run absolutely 100% and it's accuracy is impressive for its size. The .380 is what it is... I love mine for it's convenience.

[SEH95B]

I have owned the LCP and the Smith and Wesson Bodyguard and never had any issues with either. Both had probably 400-ish rounds through them.

[TriggerMan]

The issue is with the ultra compact .380s, not .380s in general

My friend and I have had several 380s and this was our experience-
....

P238- really not any smaller than a PM9, not really in the same class as the others



Really? mine was

[Rufus]

OK. You have swayed me. I think I may be in the market for a Sig P238, it I can find one that is slightly used (broken in). I have shot this gun before, and I must say I really loved it.

[Phillip]

A friend of mine bought the sig for his wife and they loved it. He said she was going to carry the gun without one in the chamber. Go figure!
Lots of designs to chose from.

[Rufus]

I found one (Sig P238) that a guy had in his safe and did not use. It's the one with the laser sight (I could live without that, but will take it) and he threw in two holsters and a box of Gold Dots for $500.00. I'm still going to have to break it in, because he only has 25 rounds through it!

[JFootin]

I found one (Sig P238) that a guy had in his safe and did not use. It's the one with the laser sight (I could live without that, but will take it) and he threw in two holsters and a box of Gold Dots for $500.00. I'm still going to have to break it in, because he only has 25 rounds through it!

Way to go, Rufus!

[Big_John_1961]

Really? mine was

Mine too.

[Big_John_1961]

I found one (Sig P238) that a guy had in his safe and did not use. It's the one with the laser sight (I could live without that, but will take it) and he threw in two holsters and a box of Gold Dots for $500.00. I'm still going to have to break it in, because he only has 25 rounds through it!

Congrats. It's a great little pistol, accurate and a blast to shoot. Just make sure you test various loads until you settle on one you trust. The Gold Dots are a good place to start.

[Ninjatarian]

Really? mine was


It is lighter (which does make a difference), but when you put them standing on their slides the width (which is what matters most) is identical and the length is the same if you include the dove tail on the p238. For the negligible difference I would take the PM9 and step up big in caliber.

Look at this pic- I would say the P238 is closer in size to the PM9 than the P380, and that's before you factor in width. Look closely at overall length and grip size-
http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu139/NCcamper/Pistols/PM9P238P380-1.jpg


The P238 is reliable unlike the others in its size range. It has full features and is beautifully crafted. Not sure how I feel about SAO pocket carry though, but that's just me.

[kerby9mm]

I own 2 mk Kahrs, one in 40 and one in 9mm. I also have 2 p238. Now if the pm9 is smaller than the mk's it is still bigger than the p238. Slide height,grip and frame are smaller on the p 238. My p238 flops around in my mk holster. I could never even force the mk into the p238 holster. Just my experience not measurements I read about.

[Cokeman]

It is lighter (which does make a difference), but when you put them standing on their slides the width (which is what matters most) is identical and the length is the same if you include the dove tail on the p238. For the negligible difference I would take the PM9 and step up big in caliber.

Look at this pic- I would say the P238 is closer in size to the PM9 than the P380, and that's before you factor in width. Look closely at overall length and grip size-
http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu139/NCcamper/Pistols/PM9P238P380-1.jpg


The P238 is reliable unlike the others in its size range. It has full features and is beautifully crafted. Not sure how I feel about SAO pocket carry though, but that's just me.

The two Kahrs look similar in size there. When I have seen both in person, I thought the PM9 was noticeably bigger.

[Ninjatarian]

What version of the P238 do you have? In the past year and a hlaf or so they made the slide wider for reliability reasons. They are in fact officially the same width of a PM9 now. The old versions were skinnier than the PM9.

[Rufus]

I got the Nitron with the laser sight. I'm not sure that I really will use the laser, because I am going to pocket-carry it.

[garflys]

I have owned the P380 and had nothing but problems. Also own the sig 238 and it has been trouble free, this gun is 3 years old. I dont think the new sigs are any wider, just the HD model. I just got the HD model yesterday, will bring it to the range this week.Im sure it will be just fine.

[heeler]

Cruise around enough gun forums and you would be scared to buy most pistols that have not been produced more than three or four model years.
Case in point.
I bought Diamondback .380 that failed in the first 220 rounds.
It was repaired.
Later it had a known catastrophic trigger bar failure.
The entire pistol was replaced.
That pistol also failed in less than 400 rounds.
It was repaired.
Sent it back because it still was not right.
Repaired again.
Put around a hundred rounds through it after that but I just lost my faith.
It now sits in my safe as I bought an LCP that just chews up and fires every 380 round it has been fed whatever the make.
A great little pistol really.
Came very close to buying a Kahr 380 but read of so many disasters here of it that there was no way I was going to spend that kind of money on a compact 380 with that kind of issues.
My Kahr PM9 has been absolutely superb through nearly 700 rounds without one issue except of course that miserable seven round magazine that is now a paperweight.

[Russ]

When I go to forums for Kahr, Sig, Kel Tec, Ruger, etc. there seems to be quite a few discussions about the poor performance of 380s. I know that I just put my daughter's Taurus 380 in the shop for multiple FTEs, and hopefully she will eventually be able to shoot a box of 50 rounds without failure. I have a good friend who is looking to trade in his Ruger because of gun malfunctions. Is it me, or does there seem to be something about the 380 in general that causes problems. I'm certainly not a gunsmith, but I don't know anyone who has not had some problems with the pocket pistol 380s. I would think that one model would get some good reviews as far as reliability goes, but I can't seem to find one. Sure they can be fluffed and polished by a gunsmith or the manufacturer, but whether you pay $200.00 or $600.00 there ought to be the expectation that the gun will be there when you need it. Let's face it, most folks do not get these as range guns, but rather get them for personal protection. When you have a gun that has multiple failures, you quickly lose faith in it.

Rufus:

If my daughter and/or wife ask for a ccw it will be a Ruger LCR 38.

I will not subject them to a pocket semi auto. There is just too much that can go wrong with a semi auto and racking a slide on a stiff gun is where the problems could start.

You can limp wrist a revolver and it still goes bang.

Russ

[JFootin]

Rufus:

If my daughter and/or wife ask for a ccw it will be a Ruger LCR 38.

I will not subject them to a pocket semi auto. There is just too much that can go wrong with a semi auto and racking a slide on a stiff gun is where the problems could start.

You can limp wrist a revolver and it still goes bang.

Russ

+1. Sometimes, simpler is better. A snubby 38 special revolver will get the job done. Five that will go bang every time. No 200 round breakin, no cracking mags, no nosedives, no FTRBs or FTEs. But you do need to get a competent trigger job, IMO, because the DA trigger pull is so stiff that you can't hit the broad side of a barn. I don't understand why all of the revolver manufacturers have let the lawyers insist on those awful triggers?! I have a S&W 638 Airweight, which provides the option of firing it SA without having a fully exposed hammer that can catch on clothing. It is at my gunsmith's now for a trigger job. Gonna be a sweet carry gun! :D It will be in carry rotation with my CM9.

[Rufus]

I took my Sig P238 out to the range today to shoot it for the first time. I also took a brand new Smith and Wesson 22A. I put 50 rounds through the P238 and 120 rounds through the 22A, and each went bang every time I pulled the trigger! No hiccups, no FTEs, and no FTFs. I loved the feel and trigger pull of the Sig P238! I added the seven-round magazine, which has the finger extension, and the gun fits my hand very well. The added mass (weight) of the gun makes it shoot with much less recoil than that of the Taurus, KelTec, or the Ruger. I am now a believer. I now own a 380!

[chipD]

My Bersa has been a good .380, maybe not the smallest or lightest but it has been a solid shooter.

[Mike_B]

That Sig P238 is sweet! I wanted that Sig real bad except for 2 things- the price (around $550-$650) and SA. So I got the LCP. Only 200 rounds so far, but no problems at all. Don't know how good something that small would be for a young woman though. Lots of recoil. She would think it's "cute" though.

Why do females always think something smaller than it's supposed to be is always "cute"?

OK, OK- no smartxxx comments here!

[Cokeman]

Because it is. :madgrin:

[dean1818]

With the small size of the CM9, why go with a less than stellar caliber?


If you compare Gold Dot offering at

380 - 216 ft pounds
9mm +P - 410 ft pounds

WHY would you bother taking it for CCW..... What if you only had ONE shot?


There was a shootout a while back where a ccw guy had a 380 against a guy with a knife..........

After shooting the guy several times, the BG asked the CCW's wife "will you make him stop shooting me?"

I dont want the time to have a conversation with a BG

What if the guy had a gun? If someone is slinging bullets back at me.....
I want something as big as possible


The small 380s I shot had absolutely nasty triggers

[dean1818]

I'm saying a majority of CCWers know that the likelihood of ever needing to actually fire a gun in an SD scenario is TINY so many choose their carry for comfort and reliability rather than high firepower.

Lalwaye.

I have heard that arguement before, and to me you could rationalize the need to CCW at all down to nothing.

Why not just carry mace?

The CM9 is tiny, with so many options for comfortable holster and ammo.

To me, why have something that hits HALF as hard ?

IMHO, the 380 is a marginal caliber at best, and unreliable as a protection
caliber

Again... My opinion...... Not worth 2 cents

[Thunder71]

.380 is more than capable.

Sent using Tapatalk on Android

[Dmitri]

If you compare Gold Dot offering at

380 - 216 ft pounds
9mm +P - 410 ft pounds

WHY would you bother taking it for CCW..... What if you only had ONE shot?
BTW Buffalo Bore makes a +P 380 with almost 300 ft/lbs (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127), but more importantly, the same point may be made for larger calibers compared to 9mm:

If you compare Gold Dot offering at

9mm +P - 410 ft pounds
45 Auto +P - 518 ft pounds

Why would you bother taking it for CCW..... What if you only had ONE shot?

See what I mean? ;)

From what little I've read on the subject, and it seemed there's more or less of a consensus re. the minimum ammo size/energy, and the 380 fit the bill... The latest +P stuff is just about as effective as the 9mm was a decade or two ago, and it was doing just fine...
Anyway, not trying to argue... just some random thoughts.

[JFootin]

Well, a lot of people get killed by 22lr bullets, so I wouldn't totally discount the 380.

[Mike_B]

From what I've read the 380 is ok for self defense with many accounts of effective use. I bet the guy who shot the BG numerous times didn't get a single head or even chest shot in there. It's hard to speak with a punctured lung! Also, what kind of ammo was used? Tula or Speer Gold Dots? I remember reading somewhere recently about a home invasion in Florida where the homeowner (a judge) took out a burglar with a .380. One shot, one kill.

I was trying to be totally realistic and honest with myself in choosing my 1st CCW. I wanted something I could carry at all times. I've even used a soft pocket holster to carry the LCP around the house tucked into my boxers! Try that with a CM9....

So I decided my 1st CCW would be one small enough to always have on me. Now I have a K9 on layaway (only so much $ to go around) to carry most of the time with LCP as a BUG. The LCP will be primary only when absolutely necessary. Better the 380 than just my Spyderco!

I don't even have my permit yet. I decided to use all available funds towards the firearms I need while they're affordable and available. Right now I have a Ithaca 20ga bird gun, a Sig sp2022 9mm for the house, and the LCP for carry. After the K9 I'll get my permit, then a Mossberg 12ga Persuader. That's the plan so far.

I know a 9mm is better than a .380. But like the other guy said- a .45 is better than a 9mm. There's no way I'm gonna try and carry a 1911 in my boxers!

[dean1818]

BTW Buffalo Bore makes a +P 380 with almost 300 ft/lbs (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127), but more importantly, the same point may be made for larger calibers compared to 9mm:

If you compare Gold Dot offering at

9mm +P - 410 ft pounds
45 Auto +P - 518 ft pounds

Why would you bother taking it for CCW..... What if you only had ONE shot?

See what I mean? ;)

From what little I've read on the subject, and it seemed there's more or less
of a consensus re. the minimum ammo size/energy, and the 380 fit the bill... The latest +P stuff is just about as effective as the 9mm was a decade or two

ago, and it was doing just fine..
Anyway, not trying to argue... just some random thoughts.

I usually do carry an M&P 45c

But when i run out quick, i usually grab the CM9

Im sorry if I offended, but the tests show the 380 is no where close to the 9mm