One Dead, 4 Wounded in Ohio HS Shooting

[Tinman507]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/27/ohio-high-school-on-lockdown-after-reports-shooting/

So damned sad. Cannot imagine what kids and parents are going through right now.

Just holding my breath for the inevitable cry for gun control over this. you know it's going to be loud and long.

[muggsy]

Chardon is a predominantly white community and one of the wealthier suburbs east of Cleveland. From what I've been able to gather from early reports is that the shooter used a .22 cal. pistol and fired 10 rounds. He was chased from the building by one of the teachers and was apprehended by police about a half mile from the scene. It sounds like the kid was being bullied by classmates and just lost it. It's a sad commentary on life and death.

[knkali]

sad day indeed.

[Longitude Zero]

Just holding my breath for the inevitable cry for gun control over this. you know it's going to be loud and long

Sad but true.

[LaP]

Sad news. These kids are so confused and frustrated. It seems like they believe this action is their only alternative.
Just calling a school, mall or building "Gun Free" doesn’t necessarily make it so.

[Bill K]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/27/ohio-high-school-on-lockdown-after-reports-shooting/

So damned sad. Cannot imagine what kids and parents are going through right now.

Just holding my breath for the inevitable cry for gun control over this. you know it's going to be loud and long.

Though not through violence my loving daughter died at 8 years old. I unfortunately do have an inkling of what the parents are going through. I think every loving parent, even not having suffered the death of a child, has some idea. My prayers are with the whole community and most especially with those most directly touched by this tragedy.

I had planned to do some shooting this afternoon but didn't. My heart just wasn't into it.

[Tinman507]

Bill I am sorry for your loss.

[Bill K]

Bill I am sorry for your loss.

[Thank you, I get emotional when incidents like this happen....]

I apologize to the OP. I'll leave my post but the focus needs, of course, to be on those suffering this day.

[jdlott74]

Chardon is a predominantly white community and one of the wealthier suburbs east of Cleveland. From what I've been able to gather from early reports is that the shooter used a .22 cal. pistol and fired 10 rounds. He was chased from the building by one of the teachers and was apprehended by police about a half mile from the scene. It sounds like the kid was being bullied by classmates and just lost it. It's a sad commentary on life and death.


1) what ever happened to taking care of bullies yourself and being the heck out of them, and

2) What ever happened to PARENTS teaching their kids that you do not bully other people. Our child would get her butt beat if we thought she was bullying.

[LaP]

1) what ever happened to taking care of bullies yourself and being the heck out of them, and

2) What ever happened to PARENTS teaching their kids that you do not bully other people. Our child would get her butt beat if we thought she was bullying.

The flaw in your logic is that YOU are a responsible adult raising responsible children. That logic does not hold true anymore. The government now has control of your children. Parents are not smart enough to bring up their children without the state's help and guidance.

I believe the sec. of education just made this statement to congress verifying that policy.

[tv_racin_fan]

Sometimes all our efforts go to naught.

[knkali]

another kid dies today making the total to two

[Tinman507]

Unfortunately it's now up to 3.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/27/ohio-high-school-on-lockdown-after-reports-shooting/

[jlottmc]

The flaw in your logic is that YOU are a responsible adult raising responsible children. That logic does not hold true anymore. The government now has control of your children. Parents are not smart enough to bring up their children without the state's help and guidance.

I believe the sec. of education just made statement to congress verifying that policy.

That's the part that really gets me steamed. Yes I empathize for the victim's families, and yes I have my own opinions about how to prevent future occurrences (take a wild guess as to what they are), but this nanny state thing just gets me going. I will stop now before I get banned.

[knkali]

jlottmc:

Please explain how to stop this type of scenario. I think your input would be valuable.

[muggsy]

1) what ever happened to taking care of bullies yourself and being the heck out of them, and

2) What ever happened to PARENTS teaching their kids that you do not bully other people. Our child would get her butt beat if we thought she was bullying.

The father of the shooter is in prison for assaulting a police officer. His parents were divorced, because of domestic violence. He was being raised by his
grandparents along with several half brothers and sisters. He was the product of a dysfunctional family and a broken home. I'm not saying that this excuses his actions in anyway, but it makes them more understandable. Three of the shooting victims have now died.

[LMT42]

Unfortunately it's now up to 3.

I hear it was a .22 that did the damage. It seems anything smaller than a 9mm/.38 doesn't just bounce off people like some would argue.

[Tinman507]

These were all close range head shots that killed these kids. .22's will do that for sure.

[jdlott74]

The father of the shooter is in prison for assaulting a police officer. His parents were divorced, because of domestic violence. He was being raised by his
grandparents along with several half brothers and sisters. He was the product of a dysfunctional family and a broken home. I'm not saying that this excuses his actions in anyway, but it makes them more understandable. Three of the shooting victims have now died.


EXCUSES do not CUT it with this. That is all it is, AN EXCUSE!!! I'm so tired of hearing all these people who do bad things, kill people, drink and being alcoholics, getting in trouble for drugs, stealing, etc saying they are doing it because they come from a broken home, being raised not by his parents, dysfunctional families. It's a CHOICE. Sorry, do not buy that bunch of BS. The shooter made a choice to shoot those kids and kill them.

There are PLENTY of people in this world that come from dysfunctional families, parents are divorced, one or more of their parents are alcoholics/drug addicts, mom or dad or both have remarried and had other kids, but they have chosen NOT to go that round and become a POS in this world. They have chosen to be a valued member of society, enlisted in the military, working and holding down full-time job along with going to school, and are great husband/dad and/or mom/wife. It's all because they CHOSE to be a valued member of society. With their family background, they could have easily taken the easy route and be a POS like their parent, but they did not.

So do not give me that crap about about it is understandable that he did what he did and it does not excuse what he did.

[Tinman507]

I completely agree with you. But what sets those people apart who made the choice not to succumb to their upbringing? What influenced those people to not turn to the dark side and what causes others to become like this shooter?

[MLESa7990]

I completely agree with you. But what sets those people apart who made the choice not to succumb to their upbringing? What influenced those people to not turn to the dark side and what causes others to become like this shooter?


What causes anyone, regardless of background, to commit murder?

[jdlott74]

I completely agree with you. But what sets those people apart who made the choice not to succumb to their upbringing? What influenced those people to not turn to the dark side and what causes others to become like this shooter?

People who are in their life that became those father/adult/mentor figures that showed them right from wrong, seeing what NOT to do from the alcoholic parent.

[U.S. Patriot]

First off, when I was in school and you had a problem with someone. You fought it out, not saying I agree with it. Now days, kids take the coward way out and bring a gun to school. They said he was beat up and teased. I was made fun of when I was in elementary school, however, I did not ever think of shooting someone. 1. I blame parents most and foremost. They are the first line of defense. Teaching kids between right and wrong. Lastly, punishing their childdren when they do wrong. 2. I blame the school system. If he was being beat up, why did the school not do anything. If they are on school property, which includes buses. It should have been dealt with. 3. I blame the state as well. When I was a kid I got my bottom beat. Now you punish your child and the cops show up. A good butt spaning is in no way wrong, and it's not anyone elses buisness. As long as it's a butt spanking and not beating.

[LaP]

First off, when I was in school and you had a problem with someone. You fought it out, not saying I agree with it. Now days, kids take the coward way out and bring a gun to school. .

Kids today are not allowed to settle it with fists. The schools punish both kids equally, whether you started the fight or were forced into it. I believe that kids bottle up their hostilities to the point of exploding into hyper violent actions. In my youth, a behind the school fight would occur and afterwards both parties shook hands and moved on... it was over and settled.
Then the uber-liberal school administrators got involved, and banned all forms of aggression (tee shirts with graphics, artwork that depicts ANY type of perceived violence, writings about war and weapons... etc) , the kids had no outlet for their frustrations and eventually it becomes an all out rampage. What would have been a bloody nose has evolved into multiple murders and suicide.

[muggsy]

EXCUSES do not CUT it with this. That is all it is, AN EXCUSE!!! I'm so tired of hearing all these people who do bad things, kill people, drink and being alcoholics, getting in trouble for drugs, stealing, etc saying they are doing it because they come from a broken home, being raised not by his parents, dysfunctional families. It's a CHOICE. Sorry, do not buy that bunch of BS. The shooter made a choice to shoot those kids and kill them.

There are PLENTY of people in this world that come from dysfunctional families, parents are divorced, one or more of their parents are alcoholics/drug addicts, mom or dad or both have remarried and had other kids, but they have chosen NOT to go that round and become a POS in this world. They have chosen to be a valued member of society, enlisted in the military, working and holding down full-time job along with going to school, and are great husband/dad and/or mom/wife. It's all because they CHOSE to be a valued member of society. With their family background, they could have easily taken the easy route and be a POS like their parent, but they did not.

So do not give me that crap about about it is understandable that he did what he did and it does not excuse what he did.

I said that his circumstance didn't excuse his behavior. What part of that didn't you understand? Everyone has their breaking point. Apparently this 17 year old reached his. He may still be breathing, but his life is over, too.

[Tinman507]

At the risk of over-generalizing and sounding sexist as well, it occurs to me that we rarely hear of a young girl going over the edge and shooting up a school or whatever. Why is that? Why do we hear so often about teen boys doing this stuff?

I have a theory based on personal observations and some research. It seems to me there is a concerted cultural effort to emasculate the male species. The old "settle it behind the school" routine penalizes both parties. They're taught from preschool to suppress male impulses that a lot of us take naturally. Boys for the most part could have disagreements, duke it out, shake hands and move forward. I believe that's because they could duke it out. I remember a gym teacher taking two kids into the gym, strapping boxing gloves on both and let em have at it. They'd arrest that guy today.

Boys didn't hold grudges. Sure there were bullies "back in the day" Bullies a lot of times got a poke in the nose either from the victim or a Good Samaritan. Our kids are taught that violence is not the answer, they're aggression counseled, suspended for anything slightly questionable and generally emasculated. There are few outlets for their inner caveman. Why the insane popularity of hyper violent video games? I think it's because there is no other outlet for them.

I don't know where this is all headed but I truly believe this is because of the "Wussification of the Male" by our culture. I don't advocate caveman behavior but I think we need to allow boys to be boys.

[muggsy]

When I found my boys bullying another kid I taught them what it felt like to be on the receiving end of bullying and taunting. We don't want to be bullied and we carry guns to insure that it doesn't happen. Boys are generally more aggressive due to a chemical called testosterone. Since women's lib we are seeing much more aggressive women. Girl fights are far more common today than they were in my youth. Legalized abortion has devalued life in general. Drug use has contributed as well. It's the break down of our moral fiber that's destroying our country. We took God out of our classrooms and invited the devil in.

[jlottmc]

Good points from my wife on down. Mugs, one bone to pick though, she did acknowledge that you said it was no excuse. Thing about it, justification is an excuse. Happens all the time, from something as small as going to the gym, to this. In the end, justification is an excuse. I know exactly who she is talking about coming from a broken home that CHOSE to pull their life out. I know them real well, so well in fact that I see him all the time in the mirror. Thing is, that guy chose to not take the easy way out, which requires a whole lot more work and effort. That is the part that the excuse is there for, to justify taking the easy way out. I say hold him 100% responsible for his actions, and his guardians as well. That is where the justice system comes in. I also say let the kids be kids and learn to handle things themselves like we used to do. I remember a time I came home and told the old man that I was being picked on, know what he told me? "Hit 'em back." That simple. Thing was though (and it pains me greatly to say this), he was right. We rolled for a bit, and while we were never buddies before or after, I was left alone. I would have no problem with a coach putting a couple of kids in a ring. BTW, there is a story http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/national/mom%3A-girl-who-died-after-fight-described-1-punch-022812 that has not only aggressive girls, but brings up another point that I was alluding too as well. Let the kids be kids and don't make them grow up so quickly.

[muggsy]

Good points from my wife on down. Mugs, one bone to pick though, she did acknowledge that you said it was no excuse. Thing about it, justification is an excuse. Happens all the time, from something as small as going to the gym, to this. In the end, justification is an excuse. I know exactly who she is talking about coming from a broken home that CHOSE to pull their life out. I know them real well, so well in fact that I see him all the time in the mirror. Thing is, that guy chose to not take the easy way out, which requires a whole lot more work and effort. That is the part that the excuse is there for, to justify taking the easy way out. I say hold him 100% responsible for his actions, and his guardians as well. That is where the justice system comes in. I also say let the kids be kids and learn to handle things themselves like we used to do. I remember a time I came home and told the old man that I was being picked on, know what he told me? "Hit 'em back." That simple. Thing was though (and it pains me greatly to say this), he was right. We rolled for a bit, and while we were never buddies before or after, I was left alone. I would have no problem with a coach putting a couple of kids in a ring. BTW, there is a story http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/national/mom%3A-girl-who-died-after-fight-described-1-punch-022812 that has not only aggressive girls, but brings up another point that I was alluding too as well. Let the kids be kids and don't make them grow up so quickly.

I wasn't excusing his behavior, nor was I trying to justify his behavior. All that I was doing was repeating what some of his fellow students said may have led to his behavior. The shooter has stated to police that his targets were chosen at random and that he had no personal animosity toward any of the victims. He claims that he doesn't know why he did what he did. I sense an insanity plea coming.

[Bawanna]

I think a lot stems from this new school of positive reinforcement, rather than you screw up your gonna get the paddle, belt, hand, insert your own choice. Thank you for not dipping Debbie's pig tails in the ink well Bobby.
I never once got it but the threat was always there and there was no doubt that it would be applied.

It's also about no being responsible for your actions. With a few notable exceptions loser kids come from loser parents. Some good parents end up with bad kids, it happens but usually there's a history.

The school system if they weren't so positive reinforcement and held more accountable might save a few of the kids the loser parents create.

[jlottmc]

But that wouldn't be PC enough to fly. We must coddle all those who would do us harm, and hold hands singing kuumbyeya.

[Popeye]

This really is a sad situation that seems to come along way to often in today society. I have no idea what the answer is to stop these sort of things from happening. I don't think there is one answer. I am totally lost when trying to undersand what goes on in a persons mind to want to kill another person you do not know or that has done nothing to you. May these children rest in peace. My heart,hopes and prayers go out the there families.
Often times on gun forums we talk about calibers and stopping power. This just goes to show one more time just how a small .22caliber can kill another human being just the same as a much larger caliber round if it hits a vital area of the body. Sometimes I think we look at the 22 caliber round as nothing more than a cheap little plinker round. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Knee mails sent to all envolved in this terrible and senseless tragedy.

[muggsy]

I think a lot stems from this new school of positive reinforcement, rather than you screw up your gonna get the paddle, belt, hand, insert your own choice. Thank you for not dipping Debbie's pig tails in the ink well Bobby.
I never once got it but the threat was always there and there was no doubt that it would be applied.

It's also about no being responsible for your actions. With a few notable exceptions loser kids come from loser parents. Some good parents end up with bad kids, it happens but usually there's a history.

The school system if they weren't so positive reinforcement and held more accountable might save a few of the kids the loser parents create.

Amen. The board of education applied to the seat of knowledge cures a lot of ills.

[jocko]

ur right about one thing popeye. 22's kill.... let therre be no mistake about that. I just cannot visualize how one can randomly kill like that. More than likely this 17 year old will outlive us all with free health care benefits and 3 square meals a day and if he is a good boy, he will meet BUBBA the first night to.:banplease:

just sayin

[Blue150]

At the risk of over-generalizing and sounding sexist as well, it occurs to me that we rarely hear of a young girl going over the edge and shooting up a school or whatever. Why is that? Why do we hear so often about teen boys doing this stuff?

Girls aren't socialized to be macho and manly, not that they don't occasionally commit heinous acts. If you've seen the "girl gang jump in" videos that pop up occasionally they seem to be catching up.

I would like to point out that each time we hear of a school shooting it dominates the news for about a month, then we don't hear about another for several months. Yes, it is a tragedy but statistically it isn't worthy of a datapoint. According to Wikipedia we have 81.5 Million enrolled in school in the U.S. and two or three go on a rampage a year? That's not bad, probably about on a par with the general population. Just because our society has this image of innocence for minors doesn't mean that image is realistic or universal.

Unfortunately it is the nature of kids to mess with those that don't fit into their group. The emo's pick on the goths, motorheads pick on the stoners, jocks pick on everyone. Those that have no group catch it from everyone and those are likely to be the least stable. How do we communicate to the bullies that picking on a kid might result in a rampage without encouraging that rampage?

I don't have the answer but I think it would help if the media wouldn't camp on the scene of every tragedy and milk it for all the ratings they can. Unfortunately that isn't practical because they are in the business to make money.

Anyway, I stole this graph from:

http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/school-shootings.html

It seems to be referring specifically to Virginia but I don't feel like reading the whole page.


http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/images/School%20Shootings/Deaths%20in%20young%20people.jpg

[JFootin]

At the risk of over-generalizing and sounding sexist as well, it occurs to me that we rarely hear of a young girl going over the edge and shooting up a school or whatever. Why is that? Why do we hear so often about teen boys doing this stuff?

Testosterone flooding their bodies and minds, as opposed to estrogen.