Choosing Carry Ammo - Can't Make Up Mind

[Path4]

Looking at a previous thread on this forum, it seems the consensus is maybe between Speer Gold Dots and Winchester Ranger-T/PDX1 hollowpoints. But I am torn between the two and was going to see if anyone has input on a couple of factors

1) Reliably is the most important attribute, an FTF or FTE is the last thing I want.
2) Performance: How does the bullet expand through different mediums? Does it expand reliably after passing through clothing.
3) Power: I own a CM9, I was considering a 40 cal but was apprehensive about the recoil especially if I'm trying to get multiple shots off as fast as possible. I want as much "stopping power" as possible. Regarding this, I'm not sure if 124 or 147 grain is better. I was considering looking at velocities and penetration to infer the energy of the different rounds.

All input is greatly appreciated.

[DKD]

I am partial to the Gold Dots in 124 grain myself for several reasons.
The 147 grainers will penetrate deeper but in a short barrel, don't have enough velocity to exspand as well as the 115 or 124 grain counterparts. When the prototypical 9mm barrel length goes down from say 4" to 3" you can give up as much as 100 fps. At best you can espect the 147 grain bullets to do 1,000 fps out of a 4" tube and our Kahrs especially the carry PM line only sport a 3" tube, as such you would be at best getting 900-925 fps from those 3" tubes.
I feel the ideal weight range {provided equal realibilty & function} for the 9mm is the 124 grain bullets. They still generate between 1,000 - 1050 fps, penetrate well with excelent exspansion traits. This is from both personal experience and law enforcement tests. In a nut shell the bullet has to be driven with enough velocity to exspand realiably, and transfer said energy to the intended target.
The Gold Dots feed very well, have a large hollow point design, and are well constructed bullet. Can't really say much about getting plugged up with clothing though...I suppose that was the reason for the Crtical Defense rounds from Hornady were designed for.

[Thunder71]

Winchester PDX Ponded, feeds like range ammo and goes bang every time.

One can argue ballistics until the cows come home, but if you get a failure to feed it's a mute point.

Works for me.

[DKD]

I forgot to mention, that the 9mm tends to over penetrate anyway, so the key and critcal part of the equation is how well that particular bullet emparts it's energy to the target. To do that requires a proper design, strength of bullet jacket, enough terminal velocity to exspand quickly.
The 9mm must exspand to transmitt its energy. When you compare it to the slow moving 45 ACP...its far l;arger diameter of the bullet naturally transmitts more energy to the target, simply because of its initial size, weight and diameter. Its temporart & permanent wound channel is far larger so it doesn't need to exspand {percentage wise} as much as the 9mm to get a similar end result.
I am basically a 45 ACP man by choice {PM45 or Kimber 1911}, but during my daily work routine, carry my PM9 and yes I stoke it with 124 grain Gold Dots +p ammo for all of the reason I have previously stated.

[DKD]

Thunder I do agree there, that they must feed and go bang every time and there is alot of good ammo choices out there currently.

I have been a reloader for over 38 years now and trust and load speer ammo with perfect function in all of my pistols and rifles.
I am only trying to enumerate the finer points as they pertain to the shorter barrel weapons out there. As Scotty said on Star Trak " Captain...you cannot change the laws of Pysic's"

[Thunder71]

Speer jams every time I hand rack my PM9, I want to love it since they are commonly praised, however there's no way I could trust 'em to work for me.

Yes, the manual says use the slide release... but in stress and a magazine failure, are you going to do that? Probably not.

[jocko]

Speer jams every time I hand rack my PM9, I want to love it since they are commonly praised, however there's no way I could trust 'em to work for me.

Yes, the manual says use the slide release... but in stress and a magazine failure, are you going to do that? Probably not.

there are to many other good rounds out there. If others hand rack properly for you, then indeed stay with um. I had at the beginning in my PM9 difficulty hand racking any round but after the gun good smoother and it and I got to now each other better, I can hand rack any round today. I am partial to powerball for one big reason of the round nose over any HP round. I have no fear that it willdothe job when needed, maybe not as perfect as some of the other defense HP rounds out there but again it is confidence over anythng else. 99.995% of all of us ain't never gonna use it in a SHTF scenario, so penetration, expansion, etc etc, is a mute point, but reliabilioty is #1. Just sayin.

I try not to tell a person what ammo one should use, for every gun can have it quirks. Speer is probably the most talked about used defense round on this forum but that does not mean it is any better than what one is using now.

[cgo99]

Looking at a previous thread on this forum, it seems the consensus is maybe between Speer Gold Dots and Winchester Ranger-T/PDX1 hollowpoints. But I am torn between the two and was going to see if anyone has input on a couple of factors

1) Reliably is the most important attribute, an FTF or FTE is the last thing I want.
2) Performance: How does the bullet expand through different mediums? Does it expand reliably after passing through clothing.
3) Power: I own a CM9, I was considering a 40 cal but was apprehensive about the recoil especially if I'm trying to get multiple shots off as fast as possible. I want as much "stopping power" as possible. Regarding this, I'm not sure if 124 or 147 grain is better. I was considering looking at velocities and penetration to infer the energy of the different rounds.

All input is greatly appreciated.
I'm going to turn the question on you, have you shot them both??? The reason I decided on the Speer is because for whatever reason I seem to be more accurate with it out of my PM9.
All the performance and power in the world means nothing if you can't connect your shots.
The next issue will be your gun, sometimes your gun will not like a particular brand or kind of ammo (is neither the gun or the ammo fault they just don't play well together), in all likelihood the ammo that feeds well trhu the same model of gun will feed well in all others of the same kind but that is not always the case. Thunder71 is a good example, same gun and same ammo and yet different results for both of us and he is right not to trust that load on his gun.
Once again performance means nothing if the ammo does not feed reliably on your gun.
My advice is shoot them both the Speer and the PDX1 and see how they perform in terms of reliability and accuracy and then decide, my guess is that you can't go wrong with either since both are proven loads.
I hope that helps, best of luck.

[crazymailman]

I have tried the Gold Dots both in 124gr +P and 115gr standard pressure versions. The GDs functioned well, but I'm more comfortable with Federal HST. They seem to feed better when I manually rack the slide. As for bullet weight, I think the 124 strikes a good balance between velocity and penetration. YMMV

[Thunder71]

there are to many other good rounds out there. If others hand rack properly for you, then indeed stay with um. I had at the beginning in my PM9 difficulty hand racking any round but after the gun good smoother and it and I got to now each other better, I can hand rack any round today. I am partial to powerball for one big reason of the round nose over any HP round. I have no fear that it willdothe job when needed, maybe not as perfect as some of the other defense HP rounds out there but again it is confidence over anythng else. 99.995% of all of us ain't never gonna use it in a SHTF scenario, so penetration, expansion, etc etc, is a mute point, but reliabilioty is #1. Just sayin.

I try not to tell a person what ammo one should use, for every gun can have it quirks. Speer is probably the most talked about used defense round on this forum but that does not mean it is any better than what one is using now.

So uh... we kind of agree then? :eek:

[TheTman]

I'm running 124gr Hydra Shok's in my 9's, and never had a bit of problem with them. That being said, none of my 9's are Kahr's.
I run Ranger 155 gr in my CW40 and the only problem I had was ejecting unfired shells, which I cured with a little filing where it was catching. The 155gr's as shown in the photo's tend to lose their copper jackets, which doesn't bother me, I figure it's just more holes to bleed out of. I guess that's why they had a bunch of 155 gr Rangers at the gun shows, as they didn't pass the test for some govt. agency, because they lost the jacket too often. When I can get them I usually go with Hydra Shoks, but they are pretty scarce around here most of the time, so I stocked up on the .40 caliber 155gr Rangers while they were going cheap at the gun shows.
I've heard some grumbling about the PDX1's not opening up when shot through 4 layers of denim into some ballistic gel when fired from short barreled guns (3" .45's mostly), but they do go bang everytime, and not many people wear 4 layers of denim. Wally World carries them at a decent price so I've used quite a few.

[getsome]

The real factor should be does your gun like brand x or brand y...Any of the previously mentiond JHP ammo rounds are great man stoppers with a good center mass location hit....I shoot a PM40 loaded with Hornady 155 gn Critical Defense which the gun shoots every time and will always hand rack with ease...

The nylon tip improves bullet upset when shot through clothing and the bullet profile makes for good feeding...I have shot some of the Winchester PDX 180 grain into wet newspaper along with the Hornady and both performed exceptionally well with perfect expansion...

The only round I have ever had balk in my previous Kahr CW40 was a Remington Golden Saber but I think they use a slightly longer bullet than some other JHP...My S&W M&P .40 will eat Golden Saber all day long and has never balked with anything put through it...

With the little Kahr pistols it is very important to find out what your particular pistol will feed reliably every time and just cause your shooting buddy's CM9 will shoot brand X doesn't mean your CM9 will...

The FBI found out that the 147 gn 9mm doesn't do as well in real world shootings as the 124 gn +p and went to the Winchester PDX round for their Glocks...That said a +p round from a 3" barrel Kahr will give more muzzle blast due to powder burning outside the barrel than a standard velosity 9mm round...Some here swear by the Gold Dot short barrel load as a trade off of good performance vs excess blast and fireball...I also read an article about the New Federal Guard Dog ammo which is shaped almost like a FMJ with no exposed hollow point but is designed to fully expand with the best JHP on impact...Might be the best compromise between good feeding and expansion...Look like an interesting new round on the market...

Bottom line is find out which brand shoots and feeds the best in your Kahr and go with it...Any major brand of modern high performance JHP defense ammo will get it done if you do your part...

[1radman]

I carry 124gr +p gold dots for all the reasons state here, Although I recently could not pass on a box of 100 Remmington standard pressure 115gr hp (L9mm1B) at wally world for only $27.

[harrydog]

I tend to stock up when i find a good deal on quality ammo like Gold Dots, Golden Sabers and Federal HST.
All three of these have been completely reliable in my PM9 and K9. If I had to choose a favorite it would probably be the HST since it has a great reputation for expanding very consistently.

[ltxi]

Reality for civilian SD use is anything reasonably late tech and quality that feeds well in your carry gun and you can hit what you're aiming at with will do just fine.

In 9mm I carry 124gr HS because I still have a ton of it. Replacement stock and other calibers are/will be mostly Gold Dot or HST. In .38 std pressure I still carry NyClad.

[U.S. Patriot]

I really like Winchester Ranger SXT 147 grain. However, I am carrying 115 Hornady Critical Defense in my PM9. I ran a box though my pistol and it functioned perfect. I choose lower grain loads out of short barrel pistols. Some will argue that with a faster round, the bullet is not in the barrel long enough to burn all the powder. Well, any reloader will tell you it depends on the powder used. Any modern ammo that properly functions in your pistol will be suffecient. Just do not read to much into all the internet hype BS that floats around. In terms of penetration, a heavier bullet does not mean deeper penetration.

[carkarrier]

You may need to try several different makers and grains to determine what shoots best in your pistol. The guys on the forum all make great suggestions based on their experience. I recently ordered(for your information) 200 rounds of 9mm, 124 gr+p, speer bonded unicore from Georgia Arms. It is rated at 1200 fps. I have bought a lot of ammo from them at the local gun shows and have been satisfied with their quality. These will be tried along with several other brands in my CM9. So far everything I have fed it has worked. BTW, the cost per 100 was $47.50. I thought it was a pretty good buy. Have fun, shoot straight and safe.

[joshh]

i carry the 147gr pdx1 in my pm9 and no problems.
found this chart for the rangers (almost exact same thing as pdx1)
http://i42.tinypic.com/5ybyac.jpg

[Path4]

I cant thank you enough for the advice, i've got a lot of things to mull over!

Getsome - The Federal Guard Dog looks like a very interesting concept, on top of that I live in an apartment complex and am concerned about overpenetration.

[Tinman507]

Overpenetration was also a concern for me. I looked into the Cor-Bon Pow'RBall round. It's got a polymer tip that fills the hollowpoint area that helps finicky feeding pistols alot. It's also designed to not clog with heavy clothing layers. It's a snappy little round but the felt recoil is actually less than my range ammo.

http://www.shopcorbon.com/glaser-powrball/600/600/dept

cFYFMkbGzwQ

[Fireman489]

Anyone using Mag Safe ? Supposedly it is created for short barrel guns. Package said 55g at 2000fps w 440 ft lbs......just wondering if anyone knows much about it.......didnt see anything in here on it......

[JimC]

Bottom line is find out which brand shoots and feeds the best in your Kahr and go with it...Any major brand of modern high performance JHP defense ammo will get it done if you do your part...

This statement pretty much nails it.

Buy a sampling of recommended ammo and test it in your pistol.

My PM9 runs 100% with the Speer 124 gr. +P GDHP for short barrel. This was my EDC load until I switched back to my G27 in .40 S&W loaded with the Win. Bonded PDX 1 180 gr. HP loading.

Two other loads that my PM9 likes are the Win. Bonded 147 gr. load (RA9B) and the Win. Bonded PDX 1 147 gr. HP loading.

All of this doesn't mean your pistol will like these loadings.

[Rubb]

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF

[joshh]

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF

sweet vids! thanks for the link. i only watched the 147gr pdx vid because thats what i carry and the vid was pretty much exactly what i experienced. rest of those vids should kill some time tonight while the wife watches her crap...
:popcorn:

[arrtvandelay]

For me and my cm9, it's winchester ranger t 147 gr (ra9t). i'm a believer in heavy bullets for short barrel pistols. winchester reps even recommend the heavier loads for short barrels. most modern hollow points no longer require excessive velocity to open up, so i have chosen the heaviest load that reliably cycles in my pistol. the fact it's a standard pressure round is even better for the long term function of the pistol as well as it having less recoil lending itself more accurate for me.

i wouldn't also discount the speer 124 gr standard or +p loads. my cm9 loves some +p gold dots, but i don't like the added recoil and my inaccuracy with this load. i'll stick with the standard pressure load that penetrates the most reliably and is the most accurate for me...the ra9t...

i would like to try some federal hsts if I could ever find them, the 147 grainers in particular. the new winchster pdx1 bonded 147gr looks promising as well (this is the rd chosen by the fbi, not the 124gr +p as stated earlier in the thread), but at around $20 a box for 20 rds, i'll stick with my 50rd boxes of always available ra9t...

[jerstolp]

im running the winchester 180gn bonded, its fbi overrun ammo same as ranger, $16 for a box of 50 at ctd. at that price i can shoot it as target ammo, so i know it functon's very well. in my pm40

[Thunder71]

Great video, been debating on what to carry for the PDX line and based on what I saw I will be continuing to carry the 147 grain Winchester PDX1.

Thanks!

[Frankhenrylee]

I have switched to Hornady Critical Defense in my PM40. These bullets have more of a cone shape which I feel helps it to feed better than some of the wide, flat nose HP's out there. Before, I had trouble with larger bullets getting hung when trying to rack the first round of a mag. Not anymore though. Depending on the gun, Kahr's need a substantial break in period. Hard to tell how much though. Shoot it till it's smooth as silk.

[getsome]

One thing the OP mentioned is over penetration being a real issue in an apartment complex or a house with multiple occupants that could be hit by a round fired at or through a bad guy...

When the FBI came up with their standard ammo testing protocol it had more to do with penetration than knock down...The test was designed to see how various rounds performed after shot through auto windshields and sheet metal door panels, plywood and barriers a criminal might hide behind...

The test was set up to see which .40 S&W bullet design stayed together after passing through something and still penetrated deep enough into ballistic gel...They currently settled on the 180 gn Winchester PDX-1 which passed all their tests...The new Hornady Critical Duty round wasn't on the market in time for the tests but is marketed to Law Enforcement for the same reason, it's ability to pass through heavy barriers and still take down a criminal...

All that is well and fine for FBI and Police but we as CCW and home defense minded shooters want just the opposite...We had better not ever be firing through something to try and take down a BG unless after it's all over you want to spend some prison time because thats how the courts are...We have to be self and family defense minded and not the aggressor in a possible shooting situation...

Massad Ayoob is an expert witness in shooting cases and gives good advice for the CCW and the guns and ammo they choose to use...For guns he says to never never use a firearm for self defense that has had a trigger job or any other gunsmith action job work done because it will come back to haunt you in a trial...The prosecuting attorney will present it to the jury that you wanted to shoot and kill the BG so bad that you had a hair trigger installed in your weapon so as to be easier to maim and kill his innocent client...Keep your carry weapon bone stock to prevent this kind of crap from being used against you...

Massad's advice for ammo is to use what the Police in your area use (They use hollow points too) but the attorney against you will always use the old line that his client was shot down by a mad man using cop killer dum dum bullets designed to do maximum destruction to a human body....If you use the same ammo as the police that stupid argument will be quickly put aside...He also does not recommend frangible rounds like the old Glasser Safety Slug or Mag Safe because it doesn't always work when shot through heavy clothing and may just injure a BG and not penetrate enough to incapacitate him if he is amped up on methamphetamine or crack and may keep coming after you...

Can you believe that some idiot at Hornady ammunition company came up with the "Zombie Max" line of ammo???...That has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in my life....I can just hear what a sleazy slime ball lawyer for the BG would do with that one...Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, even though my client has a life long problem with drugs and may have been under the influence of meth and alcohol when he kicked down the door and kindly asked the defendant for all his money he didn't deserve to be shot down like an animal with the horrible firepower from a manical destructive killing machine called "ZOMBIE MAX"....Stick to what the Police use and you will come out much better in court...

[jlottmc]

Actually, Mas says that you should be able to articulate any mods done by a gunsmith. The way to justify them goes something like this "I had the trigger smoothed out and the grip reduced to make the gun feel better in my hand, which makes it more accurate in my hand." Use a good hollow point, and make sure it works in your gun. You need not use the same brand and such used by the police. Remember, it's all about articulation in the courts. If I recall that zombie max, is just their xtp or whatever hollow point with a green box. Can we say marketing gimmick?

[SpecK]

Has anyone tried the Grizzly Xtreme SD ammo? looks pretty gnarly

[Rubb]

Has anyone tried the Grizzly Xtreme SD ammo? looks pretty gnarly

Saw this test on the 175gr 45acp…I have to pass. They brought the 45 to .380 penetration…boo :confused:
Penetrated 2 jugs, that’s about 7.3” in gel…expanded to darn near 1.5”…retained weight 167 gr.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AspEY1OlglU

ETA- Over $53 for a box of 20 .40S&W :eek:

[dean1818]

I did the backyard test with wetpack (wet newspaper in milk jugs with 4 layers of denim)

I tried Speer short barrel, Speer regular, HST, PDX1' and Corbon DPX.

The Corbon expanded better and penetrated further than the others

The Corbon expanded to almost 3/4 of an inch, which i thought was amazing.

Similar results were accomplished on youtube, with same tests

This was done with my kahr K9 (i now have a CM9)

Because of these tests, the corbon is in my M&P 45C, CM9, and will be in my SP101 357, when I pick it up.


Everyone should at least consider this round.

[michpatriot]

I am partial to the Gold Dots in 124 grain myself for several reasons.
The 147 grainers will penetrate deeper but in a short barrel, don't have enough velocity to exspand as well as the 115 or 124 grain counterparts. When the prototypical 9mm barrel length goes down from say 4" to 3" you can give up as much as 100 fps. At best you can espect the 147 grain bullets to do 1,000 fps out of a 4" tube and our Kahrs especially the carry PM line only sport a 3" tube, as such you would be at best getting 900-925 fps from those 3" tubes.
I feel the ideal weight range {provided equal realibilty & function} for the 9mm is the 124 grain bullets. They still generate between 1,000 - 1050 fps, penetrate well with excelent exspansion traits. This is from both personal experience and law enforcement tests. In a nut shell the bullet has to be driven with enough velocity to exspand realiably, and transfer said energy to the intended target.
The Gold Dots feed very well, have a large hollow point design, and are well constructed bullet. Can't really say much about getting plugged up with clothing though...I suppose that was the reason for the Crtical Defense rounds from Hornady were designed for.
Exactly! Gold Dots also come in a optimized short barrel version that is +p

[JimC]

Exactly! Gold Dots also come in a optimized short barrel version that is +p

They sure do.

Average velocity thru the 3.1" bbl. of my PM9 for the 124 gr. +P SB GD loading:

1116.6 fps/6 rds.
1121.2 fps/6 rds.