How should Detroit fix its car jacking problem?

[TriggerMan]

Maybe you saw the video of an 86 year old man getting beat down as he gassed his brand new car. He crawled from the pump and was essentially ignored by other customers. Employees were afraid to leave their bullet proof glass cage to check it out or help. His leg was broken. His car gone.

This was at 10:40 in the morning and at a busy intersection.

Any constructive ideas? Long term, short term?

A City Councilman, a Representative of the Small Business Association and other community groups are meeting next week Friday. Their major proposal was unveiled today after the nightly news. The Councilman thinks Detroit needs an Ordinance that makes gas station owners responsible for protecting customers. Their is talk of armed guards to be stationed there.

Be constructive. Thanks.

[Cokeman]

Maybe you saw the video of an 86 year old man getting beat down as he gassed his brand new car. He crawled from the pump and was essentially ignored by other customers. Employees were afraid to leave their bullet proof glass cage to check it out or help. His leg was broken. His car gone.

This was at 10:40 in the morning and at a busy intersection.

Any constructive ideas? Long term, short term?

A City Councilman, a Representative of the Small Business Association and other community groups are meeting next week Friday. Their major proposal was unveiled today after the nightly news. The Councilman thinks Detroit needs an Ordinance that makes gas station owners responsible for protecting customers. Their is talk of armed guards to be stationed there.

Be constructive. Thanks.

Detroit must really be a sh!thole.

[knkali]

I do not think making the small business man responsible for protecting the customer is the right thing to do. How does one enforce that responsibility? People need to take the streets back, but unless they are armed, that will be tough. I have no idea how hard it is to get a CCW in this part of the country. Anyone help there with that info? Also the gangs probably target anyone who fights back. IOW if you help, you are next. Other than a grass roots violence angainst violence, I dont see an answer. However, in order for that to occur, people have to want to live there and have feelings that this is their home and that stuff matters. To get this vibe back, industry and jobs need to be there again. Buy American! Build America. That is one way and probably the only way to really fix the situation.

[skiflydive]

I do not think making the small business man responsible for protecting the customer is the right thing to do. How does one enforce that responsibility? People need to take the streets back, but unless they are armed, that will be tough. I have no idea how hard it is to get a CCW in this part of the country. Anyone help there with that info? Also the gangs probably target anyone who fights back. IOW if you help, you are next. Other than a grass roots violence angainst violence, I dont see an answer. However, in order for that to occur, people have to want to live there and have feelings that this is their home and that stuff matters. To get this vibe back, industry and jobs need to be there again. Buy American! Build America. That is one way and probably the only way to really fix the situation.

Michigan is a "shall issue" state, but first you have to prove a long list of absence of felony and a lot of misdemeanor convictions. That's a difficult task for a lot of Detroit residents.

Arming the good guys is a good idea but ALL of the BG's are armed. There would be a hell of a lot of gunfights and dead people, good and bad. I fear that might be what it takes to win the city back.

Detroit used to be a fabulous place to live. I still live in MI but not there. It's sad to see. The inner downtown area seems to be OK for visitors etc but don't go out of the city core without being armed.

Positive input? Not sure I have any with regard to Detroit. The welfare culture developed by years of corrupt "leaders" and the "I gotta get a piece of mine" culture have taken the city down. It'll be a hard climb back.

How should Detroit cure it's carjacking problem? Close all the new car dealers and everyone drives a beat up ol' piece of crap even the gangstas don't want.

[popgoestheweasel]

very likely the criminal is trying to support a drug addiction and has several prior convictions. let's find a way to force more of them 'clean' as part of their sentencing and probation. drug testing, paid by the offender. if they can't stay clean, lock 'em up. hey....it's a start.

[skiflydive]

very likely the criminal is trying to support a drug addiction and has several prior convictions. let's find a way to force more of them 'clean' as part of their sentencing and probation. drug testing, paid by the offender. if they can't stay clean, lock 'em up. hey....it's a start.

Yep...that'll work. How's the offender going to pay? The ONLY way he can get money is rob, cheat and steal. Ever met a drug user who wants to give it up? They might say they do but they'd really rather not. There is NO room in Michigan prisons and there's NO money to build and staff more. The idiot previous governor let 7,000+ prisoners out early to save money. Guess where they are now? Carjacking for their next fix.

[muggsy]

I think that the penalty for car jacking in Detroit should be the same as the penalty for horse theft in the old West.

[jeepster09]

Detroit has been out of control for a long time. You take a large mostly unskilled population and take away their high paying jobs and this is what you get......no easy fix on a quick basis.

[popgoestheweasel]

Yep...that'll work. How's the offender going to pay? The ONLY way he can get money is rob, cheat and steal. Ever met a drug user who wants to give it up? They might say they do but they'd really rather not. There is NO room in Michigan prisons and there's NO money to build and staff more. The idiot previous governor let 7,000+ prisoners out early to save money. Guess where they are now? Carjacking for their next fix.

Good idea.

[TriggerMan]

Detroit has been out of control for a long time. You take a large mostly unskilled population and take away their high paying jobs and this is what you get......no easy fix on a quick basis.None of the car jacker caught have been former auto workers, in fact, they have usually never worked beyond minimum wage, if at all. They are very young and violent. I don't believe the one in this case had a weapon. Just preyed on an old man.

[TriggerMan]

Michigan is a "shall issue" state, but first you have to prove a long list of absence of felony and a lot of misdemeanor convictions. That's a difficult task for a lot of Detroit residents.

Arming the good guys is a good idea but ALL of the BG's are armed. There would be a hell of a lot of gunfights and dead people, good and bad. I fear that might be what it takes to win the city back.

Detroit used to be a fabulous place to live. I still live in MI but not there. It's sad to see. The inner downtown area seems to be OK for visitors etc but don't go out of the city core without being armed.

Positive input? Not sure I have any with regard to Detroit. The welfare culture developed by years of corrupt "leaders" and the "I gotta get a piece of mine" culture have taken the city down. It'll be a hard climb back.

How should Detroit cure it's carjacking problem? Close all the new car dealers and everyone drives a beat up ol' piece of crap even the gangstas don't want.Getting a permit in Wayne County is about a 70-90 day process. You are correct that felonies will bar you from approval. There are many misdemeanor charge that bar you as well.

Cost might be an issue. Classes run $100-125, 9mm ammo $15, state/county fee $105, plus practice ammo and range time

FYI, I looked at some crime websites and found many list Detroit as the #1 city, yet my suburb is in top ten safest nationally. I am a 11.5 mile ride from the Detroit border.

[Bawanna]

One word solution. Sterilization.

Think of it as rat control. Extermination.

[TriggerMan]

Detroit has been out of control for a long time. You take a large mostly unskilled population and take away their high paying jobs and this is what you get......no easy fix on a quick basis.Today's population IS unskilled. The Detroit Public Shools graduate only 26% of the students who start HS. Anyone with skills or smarts has moved out.

When you take a city of 1.3 million and reduce it to 900,000, you have trouble providing police services. The geographic area is large but manpower is reduced. With declining home values, curtailed public transportation, and higher unemployment (estimated at 45% for young Black males), its quite a financial challenge. Mix in a youth culture that doesn't value human life, does no long term thinking and is borderline illiterate, you have what has already been called a shithole. Detroit suffers from children raising children. It doesn't take many such families to destroy a city block by block.

I think armed guards at gas stations will result in more innocent people getting hurt.

[skiflydive]

Getting a permit in Wayne County is about a 70-90 day process. You are correct that felonies will bar you from approval. The only misdemeanor charge that bars you is domestic abuse.

Cost might be an issue. Classes run $100-125, 9mm ammo $15, state/county fee $105, plus practice ammo and range time

FYI, I looked at some crime websites and found many list Detroit as the #1 city, yet my suburb is in top ten safest nationally. I am a 11.5 mile ride from the Detroit border.

Following list of disqualifying misdemeanors copied directly from the Michigan CPL application form. It's a lot longer than domestic abuse, which is 16th on the list.

Have not been convicted of one of the following misdemeanors in the 8 years immediately preceding the date of application:

Failing to stop when involved in a personal injury accident, MCL 257.617a

Operating while intoxicated, second offense, MCL 257.625(9)(b)

Drunk driving, commercial vehicle, MCL 257.625m(4)

Reckless driving, MCL 257.626

Driving while license suspended or revoked, second or subsequent

Operating aircraft while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance with prior conviction, MCL 259.185

Hindering or obstructing certain persons performing official weights and measures duties, MCL 290.629

Hindering, obstructing, assaulting, or committing bodily injury upon director or authorized representative, MCL 290.650

Operating an ORV under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense, MCL 324.81134(5)-(6)

Operating a snowmobile under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense, MCL 324.82127 punishable under section MCL 324.82128(1)(b) or (c)

Operating a vessel under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense, MCL 324.80176 punishable under MCL 324.80177(1)(b)

Possessing a controlled substance, controlled substance analogue, or prescription form, MCL 333.7403

Operating a locomotive under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, or while visibly impaired, MCL 462.353(4)

Displaying sexually explicit matter to minors, MCL 722.677

Assault or domestic assault, MCL 750.81

Aggravated assault or aggravated domestic assault, MCL 750.81a

Breaking and entering or entering without breaking, MCL 750.115

Fourth-degree child abuse, MCL 750.136b

Accosting, enticing, or soliciting a child for immoral purposes, MCL 750.145a

Vulnerable adult abuse, MCL 750.145n

Solicitation to commit a felony, MCL 750.157b

Impersonating a peace officer or medical examiner, MCL 750.215

Illegal sale of a firearm or ammunition, MCL 750.223

Illegal use or sale of a self-defense spray, MCL 750.224d

Sale or possession of a switchblade, MCL 750.226a

Improper transportation of a loaded firearm, MCL 750.227c

Failure to have a pistol inspected, MCL 750.228

Accepting a pistol in pawn, MCL 750.229

Failure to register the purchase of a firearm or a firearm component, MCL 750.232

Improperly obtaining a pistol, making a false statement on an application to purchase a pistol, or using false identification to purchase a pistol, MCL 750.232a

Intentionally aiming a firearm without malice, MCL 750.233

Intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice, MCL 750.234

Possessing a firearm on prohibited premises, MCL 750.234d

Brandishing a firearm in public, MCL 750.234e

Possession of a firearm by an individual less than 18 years of age, MCL 750.234f

Intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice causing injury, MCL 750.235

Parent of a minor who possessed a firearm in a weapon-free school zone, MCL 750.235a

Setting a spring gun or other device, MCL 750.236

Possessing a firearm while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug, MCL 750.237

Weapon-free school zone violation, MCL 750.237a

Indecent exposure, MCL 750.335a

Stalking, MCL 750.411h

Fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct, MCL 750.520e

Reckless, careless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in injury or death, MCL 752.861

Careless, reckless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in property damage, MCL 752.862

Reckless discharge of a firearm, MCL 752.863a
Note: The applicant must not have violated a law of the United States, another state, or a local unit of government of this state or another state substantially corresponding to a violation described above.

13.
Have not been convicted of one of the following misdemeanors in the 3 years immediately preceding the date of application:

Operating under the influence, MCL 257.625 (includes operating while intoxicated or visibly impaired.)

Refusal of commercial vehicle operator to submit to a chemical test, MCL 257.625a

Ignition interlock device reporting violation, MCL 257.625k

Circumventing an ignition interlocking device, MCL 257.625l

Operating a commercial vehicle with alcohol content, MCL 257.625m(3)

Operating an aircraft under the influence, MCL 259.185

Operating an ORV under the influence, MCL 324.81134

Operating an ORV while visibly impaired, MCL 324.81135

Operating a snowmobile under the influence, MCL 324.82127

Controlled substances, MCL 333.7401 to 333.7461

Operating a locomotive under the influence, MCL 462.353(3)

Disorderly person, MCL 750.167

Embezzlement, MCL 750.174

False pretenses with intent to defraud, MCL 750.218

Larceny, MCL 750.356

Second-degree retail fraud, MCL 750.356d

Larceny, vacant building, MCL 750.359

Larceny, by conversion, MCL 750.362

Larceny, defrauding lessor, MCL 750.362a

Malicious destruction of property, MCL 750.377a

Malicious destruction of real property, MCL 750.380

Receiving stolen property, MCL 750.535

Malicious use of telephones, MCL 750.540e

[skiflydive]

Today's population IS unskilled. The Detroit Public Shools graduate only 26% of the students who start HS. Anyone with skills or smarts has moved out.

When you take a city of 1.3 million and reduce it to 900,000, you have trouble providing police services. The geographic area is large but manpower is reduced. With declining home values, curtailed public transportation, and higher unemployment (estimated at 45% for young Black males), its quite a financial challenge. Mix in a youth culture that doesn't value human life, does no long term thinking and is borderline illiterate, you have what has already been called a shithole. Detroit suffers from children raising children. It doesn't take many such families to destroy a city block by block.

I think armed guards at gas stations will result in more innocent people getting hurt.

To give even more credence to your statement, the population of Detroit was 1,849,000+ at its highest and is, as of 2010, 713,700+.

In other words, less than half of what it once was.

I maintain...the USA doesn't need more taxes, it needs more tax payers.

[TriggerMan]

Following list of disqualifying misdemeanors copied directly from the Michigan CPL application form. It's a lot longer than domestic abuse, which is 16th on the list.

Have not been convicted of one of the following misdemeanors in the 8 years immediately preceding the date of application:

Failing to stop when involved in a personal injury accident, MCL 257.617a

Operating while intoxicated, second offense, MCL 257.625(9)(b)

Drunk driving, commercial vehicle, MCL 257.625m(4)

Reckless driving, MCL 257.626

Driving while license suspended or revoked, second or subsequent

Operating aircraft while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance with prior conviction, MCL 259.185

Hindering or obstructing certain persons performing official weights and measures duties, MCL 290.629

Hindering, obstructing, assaulting, or committing bodily injury upon director or authorized representative, MCL 290.650

Operating an ORV under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense, MCL 324.81134(5)-(6)

Operating a snowmobile under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense, MCL 324.82127 punishable under section MCL 324.82128(1)(b) or (c)

Operating a vessel under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, second or subsequent offense, MCL 324.80176 punishable under MCL 324.80177(1)(b)

Possessing a controlled substance, controlled substance analogue, or prescription form, MCL 333.7403

Operating a locomotive under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, or while visibly impaired, MCL 462.353(4)

Displaying sexually explicit matter to minors, MCL 722.677

Assault or domestic assault, MCL 750.81

Aggravated assault or aggravated domestic assault, MCL 750.81a

Breaking and entering or entering without breaking, MCL 750.115

Fourth-degree child abuse, MCL 750.136b

Accosting, enticing, or soliciting a child for immoral purposes, MCL 750.145a

Vulnerable adult abuse, MCL 750.145n

Solicitation to commit a felony, MCL 750.157b

Impersonating a peace officer or medical examiner, MCL 750.215

Illegal sale of a firearm or ammunition, MCL 750.223

Illegal use or sale of a self-defense spray, MCL 750.224d

Sale or possession of a switchblade, MCL 750.226a

Improper transportation of a loaded firearm, MCL 750.227c

Failure to have a pistol inspected, MCL 750.228

Accepting a pistol in pawn, MCL 750.229

Failure to register the purchase of a firearm or a firearm component, MCL 750.232

Improperly obtaining a pistol, making a false statement on an application to purchase a pistol, or using false identification to purchase a pistol, MCL 750.232a

Intentionally aiming a firearm without malice, MCL 750.233

Intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice, MCL 750.234

Possessing a firearm on prohibited premises, MCL 750.234d

Brandishing a firearm in public, MCL 750.234e

Possession of a firearm by an individual less than 18 years of age, MCL 750.234f

Intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice causing injury, MCL 750.235

Parent of a minor who possessed a firearm in a weapon-free school zone, MCL 750.235a

Setting a spring gun or other device, MCL 750.236

Possessing a firearm while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug, MCL 750.237

Weapon-free school zone violation, MCL 750.237a

Indecent exposure, MCL 750.335a

Stalking, MCL 750.411h

Fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct, MCL 750.520e

Reckless, careless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in injury or death, MCL 752.861

Careless, reckless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in property damage, MCL 752.862

Reckless discharge of a firearm, MCL 752.863a
Note: The applicant must not have violated a law of the United States, another state, or a local unit of government of this state or another state substantially corresponding to a violation described above.

13.
Have not been convicted of one of the following misdemeanors in the 3 years immediately preceding the date of application:

Operating under the influence, MCL 257.625 (includes operating while intoxicated or visibly impaired.)

Refusal of commercial vehicle operator to submit to a chemical test, MCL 257.625a

Ignition interlock device reporting violation, MCL 257.625k

Circumventing an ignition interlocking device, MCL 257.625l

Operating a commercial vehicle with alcohol content, MCL 257.625m(3)

Operating an aircraft under the influence, MCL 259.185

Operating an ORV under the influence, MCL 324.81134

Operating an ORV while visibly impaired, MCL 324.81135

Operating a snowmobile under the influence, MCL 324.82127

Controlled substances, MCL 333.7401 to 333.7461

Operating a locomotive under the influence, MCL 462.353(3)

Disorderly person, MCL 750.167

Embezzlement, MCL 750.174

False pretenses with intent to defraud, MCL 750.218

Larceny, MCL 750.356

Second-degree retail fraud, MCL 750.356d

Larceny, vacant building, MCL 750.359

Larceny, by conversion, MCL 750.362

Larceny, defrauding lessor, MCL 750.362a

Malicious destruction of property, MCL 750.377a

Malicious destruction of real property, MCL 750.380

Receiving stolen property, MCL 750.535

Malicious use of telephones, MCL 750.540eI stand corrected, I was thinking of the Federal requirements because I must adddress them every time I buy a gun and it's fresh in my mind.

[skiflydive]

I stand corrected, I was thinking of the Federal requirements because I must adddress them every time I buy a gun and it's fresh in my mind.

Sort of makes it easier to carry illegally, right? :confused:

[Don K.]

Operating a locomotive under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, or while visibly impaired, MCL 462.353(4)



Really?

[skiflydive]

Operating a locomotive under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled substance, or while visibly impaired, MCL 462.353(4)



Really?

Planes, trains, and automobiles...a DUI is a DUI.

Boats too.

[kerby9mm]

Triggerman. Since you started this discussion maybe you should have mentioned about the 14 yeat old that shotgunned his sick mother as she slept because she forbid him to hang out with his 20 year old gang member buddies. Only one thing is going to stop mentality of that nature.

[TriggerMan]

Triggerman. Since you started this discussion maybe you should have mentioned about the 14 yeat old that shotgunned his sick mother as she slept because she forbid him to hang out with his 20 year old gang member buddies. Only one thing is going to stop mentality of that nature.He also wanted to bring girls home. Why not, get an early start on the welfare cycle.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120227/METRO01/202270397/1361/14-year-old-killed-mom-with-shotgun--Detroit-police-say

What's the one thing you had in mind?

[TheTman]

I think a number of things has contributed to this mess we're in with the kids these days. For one, they get no moral guidance at school anymore, since they kicked any mention of God and morality out, unless it's Allah or some pagan god. School used to be the only place a lot of kids would get any moral guidance. Then you have the welfare state that encourages poor people to breed to get more money from the government, which has in turn caused a lot of kids to grow up in a fatherless environment. Kids need a stong male role model in their life and many of the kids are getting their role models from the elders in the gangs they join.

I think Detroit is a modern day equivalent of Chicago during prohibition. Back then many good and honest people became labeled as criminals just because they wanted to have a drink. Prohibition made many a wealthy man, and led to many deaths and much violence. Imagine what would happen if they tried that today.
Today's prohibition is doing the same thing, making drug cartels wealthy, while sucking up our tax money, and causing the prisons to be overcrowded because of the mandatory sentencing, so a drug offender is kept locked up while they free murders and rapists to make more room in the prison. I just looked at an article that said we've spent over a trillion dollars in the last 10 years fighting the war on drugs and what do we have to show for it? Crime is as high as ever, and drug cartels control much of the border, and we tell people that it's unsafe to go into parts of our own country cause of the Mexican cartels. I know many people disagree (sorry Bawanna), but the war is a failure, and we should go ahead and legalize them and sell them at reasonable prices so people don't have to commit crimes to get their fix. It would be no different than back in the '30s and realizing that prohibition is just not working.
One could say that were just giving up, but did we not do the same thing back in the '30s when we repealed prohibition on alcohol. People want a product, and someone is going to supply that demand and with the current situation, they are making great amounts of money and causing a lot of violence. By legalizing and controlling drugs, we would be able to tax and make money from it and guarantee a consistent product, which would lead to less deaths and ER visits by these jerkwads that insist on taking the poison.
It seems like for every cartel or gang we break up, 2 are ready to take up the slack. Then another round of violence starts as they battle for control of the market.
If drugs were legal, you'd see a dramatic drop in violent crime and burglaries all across the nation. You very seldom read about people getting knocked on the head cause someone needed money to buy a bottle of whiskey.
I think the only way we'd have a chance of winning the war on drugs would be to turn America into a police state, and throwing the bill of rights out the window. I doubt if many want to see that happen. The war could be won, but at what price? Are you willing to give up your rights, so that little johnny can't get his fix? I think they'd pretty much have to tap all phones and monitor them, have MANY more police or national guard or something patrolling the streets, and have random stops and warrantless searches of anyone or any home they suspect of having drugs. Makes more sense to me, to let little Johnny have his poison at a resonable price he can afford, and maybe he'll OD and make the world a better place.
Maybe if it they were legal, more people would seek help for their problems with them, I don't know. I do know that many people much wiser than me are calling for an end to this prohibition and the crime that goes with it.
I think one of the worst drugs imaginable is already legal, and readily available. How much crazy stuff do people on alcohol do? How many homes has it torn apart, how many spouses have been abused because of it? Not everyone abuses it of course, but enough do that they keep the police pretty busy on weekend nights. Before you take exception to this post, have you had a drink recently? 75 years ago YOU would have been a criminal. Would that have kept you from having a beer if you wanted one?
I really hate that things have got to this point, but we need to quit looking at this emotionally, and take a look at from a fiscal and logical point of view. If someone gets their pleasure or relaxation in a weed, a pill or a powder, instead of a bottle, who are we to deny them that because we find it immoral and disgusting.
Having said all that, I would hate to see some things legalised, particularly meth, but where do you draw the line?
(I have my helmet and flame suit on, let the flaming begin)

[jocko]

In amsterdam they ust have about 100 "Pot"shops, go in smoke like u stole um, best don't get caught outside tryingt to sell the sh-t. Not sur ehow goood it works but they have been doign it for years, course amsterdam also has the red light district where gals sit in store front windows offering sex for a price. not sure how good that works either. Ihave been told by somethere that they wouldlike to do awa with both of those vices and clean up the city alittle more, not sure how good that works either.

I wish I had a coment pro or con in what Themansni said but he has some good points. we are a country of liberties like no othger country i the world, and with those liberties comes some sh-t we don't approve of. not sure how good that works out either . I tend to mind my own business anymore at my age, I don't look for trouble. Still the best damn country in the world to live in with all our faults. the fact that I can call our president a TWIT is something that in most countries would get u jailed or maybe even shot. Here u get a merit badge.. Just sayin.

[Scoundrel]

1. Construct a 30-foot concrete wall around Detroit.
2. Check everyone who tries to leave for criminal history. Let those with clean records out.
3. Don't allow anyone to enter.
4. Wait a few months.
5. Conduct systematic air strikes with biological weapons to sterilize the place.

[jocko]

but but how would we get our chevy volts?????
I read today that GM has stopped production of their over successful volt. oh yea, so much for green energy forced down our throats

I stopped in our local chvy dealer and ask him why he doesn;'t have a volt on display. His answer was, if u want one, put a deposit and we will order u one otherwise we have no intentions of stocking one:blah:

[Scoundrel]

They're made in Mexico anyway, and only assembled in Detroit, right? So assemble them somewhere else.

Edit: I have NO IDEA where Volts are made, I'm just being argumentative. If you're about to challenge me on my facts, please just dismiss me as being a jerk and move on. I won't be offended. :)

[jocko]

from what I gathered from my local dealer was that until he sells ONE VOLT he is not being required to invest thousands of dollars in special diagnostic equipment and tools reltated to the volt. Might be B. S. to

NOt sure where the volt is made but I would think it comes out of detroit.

[Scoundrel]

I could see how a dealer might not be required to be able to service a Volt until he has sold one. if I were a dealer in that circumstance, I would try to get a bunch of customers to put down non-refundable deposits on a Volt in a "pre-order" sort of way, until I had enough pre-order deposits to cover the cost of the diagnostic equipment. Then I'd order up the Volts, and off we go.

[jocko]

form the sound of it, the volt is not selling at all,

[TheTman]

The Cost to operate a Chevy Volt
A person test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.
For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.
They calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 Kw/h battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 Kw/h of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so he looked up what he paid for electricity. He pays approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per Kw/h. 16 Kw/h x $1.16 per Kw/h = $18.56 to charge the battery.
$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.

Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.
$3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.

So our government wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.

I'm gonna run right out and buy one! Just as soon as the Chiefs win the Superbowl.

I didn't check the math, just posting an email I received.

(Sorry about hijacking the thread Triggerman)

[Indigo]

As a small business owner myself I can't fathom how any good can come from forcing shop owners to hire armed security there are some trickle-down consequences there. First, overhead in my personal line of work is already around 80% or so meaning I have to listen to people complain all day about what things cost when after I pay taxes on my 20% then in reality I'm down to one tenth of what I charge. Gas prices are already taxing to people's wallets so you can't just force a business owner to cough up another 50 grand a year or so on security as this cost will just be passed on to the consumer in the form of.....guess what....even higher gas prices. How can this help anyone? I can't speak for what a typical gas station profits but judging from what some of the local mom and pop independent stations look like around here I can fully expect similar business in detroit to just pack up and shut down when faced with that added cost furthering the problem of people needing financial assistance and losing jobs, population, etc. Good lord does this councilman have more than just a functioning brain stem? Not all public schools are forced to have armed security and we know what can happen there, so how can anyone realistically think they can force a private business owner to do so? As a consumer I would just do my best to pay at the pump and stay in my locked car as much as possible armed and ready. Educating customers to protect themselves is the only real way to handle this, after all you can be easily attacked in the parking lot of a restaurant, grocery store, post office, movie theater, etc. This is just today's bogeyman to blame for poor choices by people not taking responsibility for their own actions.

[TheTman]

Might be a good thing if they rolled back the clock 50 years and had a guy out there pumping gas and checking oil and tire pressure and stuff. Would be a lot less expensive and less dangerous to bystanders than an armed security guard. Be a great job for some of these teens that can't seem to find a job. And the car passengers could stay inside their locked car. They could have the kid deposit any cash he takes into the office as soon as he takes it, maybe leave him with change for a $10, so it wouldn't be worth robbing him. I imagine people would pay a few extra cents a gallon for the convenience and security of not having to leave their car.

[knkali]

Might be a good thing if they rolled back the clock 50 years and had a guy out there pumping gas and checking oil and tire pressure and stuff. Would be a lot less expensive and less dangerous to bystanders than an armed security guard. Be a great job for some of these teens that can't seem to find a job. And the car passengers could stay inside their locked car. They could have the kid deposit any cash he takes into the office as soon as he takes it, maybe leave him with change for a $10, so it wouldn't be worth robbing him. I imagine people would pay a few extra cents a gallon for the convenience and security of not having to leave their car.

Great idea. Really good. The more I think about it the more I like it. BUT, how is he going to get paid? By the owner or the customer? Customer? forgetaboutit. They wont pay. Times are tough, the area is tough, the people probably dont have the money for this service. In California gas is already $4.55 a gal self serve.

[michpatriot]

Might be a good thing if they rolled back the clock 50 years and had a guy out there pumping gas and checking oil and tire pressure and stuff. Would be a lot less expensive and less dangerous to bystanders than an armed security guard. Be a great job for some of these teens that can't seem to find a job. And the car passengers could stay inside their locked car. They could have the kid deposit any cash he takes into the office as soon as he takes it, maybe leave him with change for a $10, so it wouldn't be worth robbing him. I imagine people would pay a few extra cents a gallon for the convenience and security of not having to leave their car.
This sounds like a pretty good idea compared to the councilmans plan.

[knkali]

This sounds like a pretty good idea compared to the councilmans plan.

Those were the days. Also they would give glass ware too with a fill up.

[CMA]

1. Construct a 30-foot concrete wall around Detroit.
2. Check everyone who tries to leave for criminal history. Let those with clean records out.
3. Don't allow anyone to enter.
4. Wait a few months.
5. Conduct systematic air strikes with biological weapons to sterilize the place.

I was born and raised in Detroit. I moved away along time ago and have never been back. Based on my experience in that jungle and with the animals that live there, the above idea is the only solution I see working.

Best regards.

[Armybrat]

A bit of 20th Century Texas History:


In January, 1986, the Chronicle reported that Pilgrim Cleaners had begun hiring off-duty police officers to protect the company's 300 stores from robbers. General manager, Guy Robertson, Jr., said, "We've been robbed a lot. We've been losing too much money, and I can't keep my employees." Just in the previous week, four of his stores had been robbed.

But the announcement that the squads were returning brought a firestorm of controversy.

The guards were called "executioners" by a local police chief, and many departments in the area forbade their officers to work the squads.

Most business owners and Houstonians, however, tired of crimes going unpunished, backed Robertson who noted that the squads had been used periodically since the 1960s. He credited their success with helping to keep the company in business.

A police spokesman stated that Houston Police Chief Lee P. Brown would never allow his officers to "lay in wait to ambush" suspected robbers. Clyde Wilson, the private detective responsible for hiring the guards for Pilgrim Cleaners, responded. "I'm not concerned about the rights of criminals," he said. "I'm concerned about the rights of my clients, their employees, and their customers."

Robertson explained how the shotgun squads worked. Each store had large mirrors installed on the walls near the cash register. Some were, well, just mirrors; others were two-way mirrors fronting a hidden room. "The robbers are just going to have to play Russian roulette," Robertson said. In the rooms behind the two-way mirrors, off-duty cops sat with shotguns waiting for a robber to appear. He could then shoot through the mirror and incapacitate the thug.

Over the years, the shotgun squads were highly effective in reducing armed robberies in many cities. In the late 1960s, guards in Dallas killed 11 armed robbers. In Los Angeles, 35 robbers were killed by the squads.

Harris County District Attorney Johnny Holmes acknowledged that squads were legal. "I don't think there's any question that they're a deterrent to crime," he said.

Despite the controversy, Robertson hired several shotgun guards. Within a few weeks, the robberies of Pilgrim Cleaners had ended.

The last report of shotgun guards being used in Houston was in 1992 when Lt. J. W. Fry killed a parolee who had just robbed a Stop 'N Go convenience store. Fry, a Pasadena cop (since Houston PD wouldn't allow their officers to work the squads, stores imported guards from other jurisdictions), was no-billed by a grand jury. An autopsy revealed that the robber, who was carrying a knife, had cocaine in his blood. He'd been recently paroled after serving a twenty year sentence for--you guessed it--armed robbery.

[TriggerMan]

from what I gathered from my local dealer was that until he sells ONE VOLT he is not being required to invest thousands of dollars in special diagnostic equipment and tools reltated to the volt. Might be B. S. to

NOt sure where the volt is made but I would think it comes out of detroit.Hamtramck Assembly Plant

Hamtramck is a city within a City. It its surounded by Detroit

[TriggerMan]

Might be a good thing if they rolled back the clock 50 years and had a guy out there pumping gas and checking oil and tire pressure and stuff. Would be a lot less expensive and less dangerous to bystanders than an armed security guard. Be a great job for some of these teens that can't seem to find a job. And the car passengers could stay inside their locked car. They could have the kid deposit any cash he takes into the office as soon as he takes it, maybe leave him with change for a $10, so it wouldn't be worth robbing him. I imagine people would pay a few extra cents a gallon for the convenience and security of not having to leave their car.A great idea, perhaps only for half the pumps and only with credit cards. It might cost 10 cents per gallon more but that would be accepted.

[TriggerMan]

The Cost to operate a Chevy Volt
A person test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.
For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.
They calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 Kw/h battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 Kw/h of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so he looked up what he paid for electricity. He pays approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per Kw/h. 16 Kw/h x $1.16 per Kw/h = $18.56 to charge the battery.
$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.

Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.
$3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.

So our government wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.

I'm gonna run right out and buy one! Just as soon as the Chiefs win the Superbowl.

I didn't check the math, just posting an email I received.

(Sorry about hijacking the thread Triggerman)I just check the cost of electricity here. Its only 7.7 cents per Kwh. That $1.16 is very suspect. The Wikipedia write-up has the Volt cost per mile at 3.8 cents

I have a dozen reasons I would not buy one. I am seriously looking at the 2013 Malibu ECO. Best in class interior, well built, bets its competitors, including the foreign hybrids, with gas mileage. Rated 39 hwy. but the tester got 44 mpg in a Detroit to Chicago run.

[TheTman]

Kilowatts aside, it doesn't seem to be very convenient, only 25 miles on a charge, and 30mpg. I get 36 with my Hyundai, which I got on the last day of Cash For Clunkers.
And at $46K, I can think of a LOT of other vehicles I'd rather have, or even a small car and decent pickup.

[JFootin]

Kilowatts aside, it doesn't seem to be very convenient, only 25 miles on a charge, and 30mpg. I get 36 with my Hyundai, which I got on the last day of Cash For Clunkers.
And at $46K, I can think of a LOT of other vehicles I'd rather have, or even a small car and decent pickup.

I bought my Hyundai Elantra Limited in 2006. I have seen 40 mpg on one highway tankfull, but get mid 30s consistently, thought the window sticker said 32. It is an absolutely great car with a roomy interior and perfectly laid out driver's station, lots of pickup, big trunk, best headlights I've ever seen on a car, 5 year/ 50,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty, 10 year/100,000 mile drivetrain warranty, dependable as all getout. My Limited model has leather seats, wood trim on dash and doors, a beautiful thick chromed front grill, fog lights, and looks almost like a Mercedes Benz. Overall, the best car I have ever owned! :D Mine is white with tan leather, like this minus the side window shades:

http://images.carlotbot.com/pictures/39266338.jpg

[TriggerMan]

Kilowatts aside, it doesn't seem to be very convenient, only 25 miles on a charge, and 30mpg. I get 36 with my Hyundai, which I got on the last day of Cash For Clunkers.
And at $46K, I can think of a LOT of other vehicles I'd rather have, or even a small car and decent pickup.I believe the MSRP is between $40,000 and $41,000. After the Federal Tax Credit of $7500 (more in some states due to state credits) we have a car sellling for $32,500

I think the big downside is the range of 22-30 miles per charge and the 10 hours to full charge. A 2013 Chevy Malibu ECO is $5,000 less and costs less per mile as well.

[joe d]

how should detroit fix its car jacking problem?

cw45...

[Cokeman]

Put something in the water that causes sterilization?

[TriggerMan]

Put something in the water that causes sterilization?Boy, I'd love to submit that on Friday...but Detroit runs a regional water supply. Not that I want to be a 62 year old expectant father!

[TriggerMan]

Based on photos from surveilance cameras, the car jacker was arrested about 24 hours after the story hit the Press. 21 year old punk.

[TriggerMan]

cw45...LOL

You have a lot of support with that plan.

[TheTman]

I think my Kwh is 9.29 cents hour, including all the xtra fees they charge.
I just love the Electric Co. they charge $8.00 for the privilige of being their customer. Then they add another $24.00 to pay for the fuel they burn to generate electricity.

[Cokeman]

Good to know. :001_huh:

[jocko]

I think my Kwh is 9.29 cents hour, including all the xtra fees they charge.
I just love the Electric Co. they charge $8.00 for the privilige of being their customer. Then they add another $24.00 to pay for the fuel they burn to generate electricity.

8.67 cents per kwh and then we have to add.
connetcion chrge 9.40
Fuel adjustment $43.62
coal gasification adj 10.80,
Pollution control adj 9.21
emmission allowance 72 cents
DSM ongoing (whatever the fokk that is) $4.24
Midwest Ind sys oper adjustment 1.49
riliability adjustment 84 cents
clean coal adjustment 10.02

Gods truth here my total monthly bill is $206.88 plus Indiana sales tas of $14.48

My actual kwph bill is only $117.73

now tellme this ain't fokking screwed up. I heard they bought a semi load of sh-t paper for all their plants, so as soon as they can get that prorated, it will be on my next bill. It will be coded though as AW adjustment.

[yqtszhj]

I hate to go back to the subject of the post but I've been through detroit twice while crossing the river to our neighbors to the north. The first time I missed my turn after crossing the border back into the USA and had to drive into town a bit to turn around. Not a good feeling.

The second time they were doing road construction when I was trying to cross into Canada and I had to divert from the interstate a block or so.

Sorry, but that place is a pit.

[TheTman]

Never been to Detroit, but been to Baltimore, Washington DC, Philly, and NYC. At least I wasn't driving in NYC, but if you take a wrong turn in the first 3 cities, and get off the tourist track, you'd swear you were in some 3rd world country. Handguns may be illlegal in Washington DC, but when I got off into the innercity, I had mine on my lap, cocked n locked. I went to the Inner Harbour in Balitmore, and got off into some of the surrounding neighborhoods, and it wasn't much better. In Philly I was lucky and got to the Liberty Bell area without going through too bad of neighborhoods, so not sure what it's like off the tourist trail, but I'm sure it's not much different than Baltimore or DC. In NYC I was put up in company owned condo's, and was told to never go past a block the other direction from midtown Manhattan, and never did venture down into that area, below 14th street. The parts we had to walk through to get to the office were scary enough. We did end up getting dumped off a bus in the middle of Harlem on a Sunday morning, and had to walk over to Central Park to find a cab, and It being Sunday morning, there weren't many people out yet, so it wasn't too bad. We had about a half mile walk to Central Park, and I was very glad to get there. I've been to Denver quite a bit, and been through some area's in that town where I was pretty glad I was armed.

[Cokeman]

East LA, North Las Vegas, South Chicago, I'm sure they're all the same.

[johnh]

pRB6XXuWQm8

Many thanks to the member/s who originally brought these commercials to my attention.... :D

[jeepster09]

pRB6XXuWQm8

Many thanks to the member/s who originally brought these commercials to my attention.... :D


I agree we all need our own TRUNK MONKEY!

[titus1971]

Do they allow Concelaed Carry?

[TriggerMan]

Do they allow Concelaed Carry?
Yes, Michigan became a Shall Issue State about ten years ago. The problem is qualifying by way of no felonies and no relevant misdemeanors.
In a large busy County, it could take 90 days to receive your CPL.

[Wayne Nelson]

Making the Gas Station people/employees becoming the Police and enforcing the law is not a good idea. There would only be alot of lawsuits from the BG's and they would still win in the end and have more money for their drugs.

If everyone was armed, maybe there would be a small decrease in Strong Arm crimes but I think that there would be more "sneak up" crimes and they would only get the jump on you and take your weapon away from you. Maybe you would also get shot or killed from the BG's knowing that you are armed and they would only get more violent. They would get your weapons and sell them for more drugs.

I don't know if there really is a good solution to this problem. I think that the problem has only gotten too big to fix and is way out of hand.