Bringing voters to your side; How to

[TriggerMan]

We've had some good discussion on politics. Some not so good. Some closed too soon perhaps, some certainly not closed soon enough

When bringing Undecided Independents or even polar opposites to your political side, what do you think is Effective?

[O'Dell]

If we're talking politics, religion, or NASCAR here, it'll never work.

[TheTman]

Some things are so ingrained in people that no argument or facts can persuade them to look at any view but their own. Polictics, religion, right to life, right to work, and guns are some real hot button issues that people are unlikely to change their mind about. Not saying it can't be done, but takes a lot of effort.

[muggsy]

I always attempt to use logic first. If that doesn't work I try humor. If that fails I usually go to for bludgeon. I've yet to go for my guns, but on a few occasions I've been sorely tempted. What some see as caring others see as enabling. Somewhere there is a middle ground. I prefer a time out to the closing of a thread. We will never resolve our differences if we don't discuss them. Let's try to do so in an adult manner.

[melissa5]

Just for the record, I did not vote to "call your opponent the anti-christ". LOL

[CJB]

I've won over a few bleeding heart touchy feely northeast liberals. It wasn't easy, it didn't take one session... but it worked.

I used the Walter E Williams approach of explaining taxation amounts.

I used the example of their own IRS returns (as compared to my own - they made considerably more than me).

The clincher - I used the logic, explained in their own vernacular, of personal risk... laying your ass on the line, and reaping the reward, or failing miserably. You win, its yours. But if you burn... nobody else burns with you.

Then I stay on them... and not let the dark side take them back. So far so good.

I've actually made some Allen West supporters out of them. He's my congressman now. And two looking forward to him becoming THEIR congressman (redistricting).

And... I have a communist (literally) co-worker, who is oblivious to any sort of logic. He says the government should control all business, and that the people and workers should reap the benefit of all business equally. Private risk taking, achievement and enterprise should be illegal - or at least all profits of private ventire should go to the government.

On that last item... it seems like they damn well almost do right now.

[DubDubU]

I would have picked " My Kahr is bigger than yours" if it were an option.

[Longitude Zero]

With some folks the anti-attitude is so deeply ingrained you are just urinating into the wind. With others I try to find various points we agree upon both weapon related and not and then over time steer the conversation to weapons.

[Bawanna]

I always attempt to use logic first. If that doesn't work I try humor. If that fails I usually go to for bludgeon. I've yet to go for my guns, but on a few occasions I've been sorely tempted. What some see as caring others see as enabling. Somewhere there is a middle ground. I prefer a time out to the closing of a thread. We will never resolve our differences if we don't discuss them. Let's try to do so in an adult manner.

I don't have a time out button YET. If the discussion stays civil and in an adult manner I don't close it.
I try to put my personal feelings aside when I take the safety off the close thread button. I consider this my happy place and don't care much for ugly. Usually I'll receive numerous thank you PM's for the closures or I'll get numerous PM's saying what's the hold up, close this thing. So while I take full responsibility for my actions, often times I'm not the only one with the closure idea.
If there's some solid reason to keep a thread I've closed open it maybe should have been posted before it was closed. Also that button does have a reverse on it so a closed thread can be reopened. I don't recall any in recent times that deserved to be reopened but maybe so.

[Tilos]

It's very difficult for someone to admit being wrong.

You will never know, unless you are in the booth when they vote.

My poll choice isn't on your list.

O None of the above

Tilos

[muggsy]

I don't have a time out button YET. If the discussion stays civil and in an adult manner I don't close it.
I try to put my personal feelings aside when I take the safety off the close thread button. I consider this my happy place and don't care much for ugly. Usually I'll receive numerous thank you PM's for the closures or I'll get numerous PM's saying what's the hold up, close this thing. So while I take full responsibility for my actions, often times I'm not the only one with the closure idea.
If there's some solid reason to keep a thread I've closed open it maybe should have been posted before it was closed. Also that button does have a reverse on it so a closed thread can be reopened. I don't recall any in recent times that deserved to be reopened but maybe so.

When you are the moderator you can do no wrong. I have no objection to a thread being closed if it gets out of hand. I'm a little less sensitive to spirited debate than others, but I can appreciate their positions. In any regard, no hard feelings toward anyone.

[CJB]

It's very difficult for someone to admit being wrong.


Ah, but the idea is not to make them realize they are wrong.

For instance - capitalism 101 discussion - when describing risk, profit, loss... its critical to explain it terms that they themselves can relate to...making their own "deals" for instance. How about if they need workers/employees? Don't make it a labor issue... instead, make it a help issue. They need a driver to deliver the stuff. Do they cut the driver in for equal equity in their profit? No, they pay him according to what they can get him to do the job for. Will he do it for free? No. Ok, how about a dollar? No. Ok, two? No. Etc... at some point he accepts, and at some point the going local rate for drivers will more or less be known, although... its always subject to fluctuation.

Its not an argument to win, its a ideology to infuse.

[Tilos]

CJB:
Understood, just too much effort for me.
I have found logic not to be their strong point.
I'll let you handle it.

For me, I'd rather put my effort in getting like minded people to the voting booth and that they can affect change.

just sayin'
Tilos

[CJB]

its ok... these are just people I deal with...

the like minded folks I know are chompin' to get into the booth!

[tv_racin_fan]

I got no problem getting in the booth, what I have issue with are the choices I am allowed to select from. Seems kinda silly to go into the booth when none of the above is a valid selection...

[CJB]

True. Sad and true.

All due to diversity. We're splintered. Everybody is in some subgroup, trying to maintain their own identity. Politicians cater to groups, they want group votes. They legislate to groups, according to groups.

Will it ever be a hate crime to beat up a white guy - we're soon to be a minority!

It used to be, and rightfully so, that people strove to be part of the "melting pot", be part of the American ideal. Some time in the early 70s, they started poo-pooing the melting pot idea in schools, and teaching "the American mosaic" instead. But I digress....

I gotta add.... I'm old enough to remember relatives, and friends and shirt tail relatives, who used to say "I'm in American, now I'll act as an American". They were all Italian. My neighbor - who bought my grandmother's house right next door to our own - he was from Central America, Costa Rica I think - then he moved to Puerto Rico, then to LI,NY. He did well - Mercedes and Volvo service manager. I remember him wanting to "fit in" more than anything. He wanted to be an American to the point of his own tears. This I recall from the days of my youth: The grown man next door weeping in joy at becoming a citizen, over his children's unlimited opportunity in America, always first to raise the flag on holidays, always loudest singing the anthem.

Whew... no more brother... no more.

[JFootin]

I don't have a time out button YET. If the discussion stays civil and in an adult manner I don't close it.
I try to put my personal feelings aside when I take the safety off the close thread button. I consider this my happy place and don't care much for ugly. Usually I'll receive numerous thank you PM's for the closures or I'll get numerous PM's saying what's the hold up, close this thing. So while I take full responsibility for my actions, often times I'm not the only one with the closure idea.
If there's some solid reason to keep a thread I've closed open it maybe should have been posted before it was closed. Also that button does have a reverse on it so a closed thread can be reopened. I don't recall any in recent times that deserved to be reopened but maybe so.

It's funny. You closed the "When is WHEN enough?" thread and I didn't see why. No biggie. Maybe it wasn't going anywhere good. I just thought it needed posting. Wasn't going to argue with anybody about it. That's why I just said "Keep waiting."

[QuercusMax]

We have been posed the question: "What's the best way to persuade others to your views?"

Right away, that puts a win-lose, "me vs. you" perspective on things.

When considering beliefs that cannot be proven or dis-proven, such as politics or religion, being "right" can never be more than a matter of one's own opinion. It is never possible to have a discussion with someone whose mind is already made up - only a battle.

I think if everyone spent more time seeking to improve their own understanding (this is not the same as seeking to confirm what one already believes) and tolerating those who are different, we would all be better off.

I have wondered why there seems to be so much "shouting" in the world today. My theory is that it is exacerbated by the explosion of impersonal electronic communication, which makes it easy to say outrageous things from the comfort of anonymity - things that would never have been said face-to-face.

[CJB]

I got it... lets just rework the Blondie line from Sergio Leone's films....

"There are two kinds of people in this world my friend, those who vote conservative, and those with loaded guns. You vote."

[Bawanna]

When you are the moderator you can do no wrong. I have no objection to a thread being closed if it gets out of hand. I'm a little less sensitive to spirited debate than others, but I can appreciate their positions. In any regard, no hard feelings toward anyone.

I don't know that I totally agree with that statement about moderators doing no wrong. I'm sure there are good ones and bad ones for sure and since I'm still pretty much just a trainee I might not recognize the difference.
I have to answer to my leaders and I assume they have to answer to somebody so nothings really free.

Do feel free to utilize PM if anyone thinks I'm getting trigger happy closing threads. I haven't been chewed out for it, well maybe a couple times, well actually maybe like 6 or 7 times but hardly worth mentioning.

I do feel slightly bad sometimes closing threads but I just can't handle ugly. Course sometimes I feel really really good closing threads too.

[kenk]

We have been posed the question: "What's the best way to persuade others to your views?"

Right away, that puts a win-lose, "me vs. you" perspective on things.

When considering beliefs that cannot be proven or dis-proven, such as politics or religion, being "right" can never be more than a matter of one's own opinion. It is never possible to have a discussion with someone whose mind is already made up - only a battle.

I think if everyone spent more time seeking to improve their own understanding (this is not the same as seeking to confirm what one already believes) and tolerating those who are different, we would all be better off.

I have wondered why there seems to be so much "shouting" in the world today. My theory is that it is exacerbated by the explosion of impersonal electronic communication, which makes it easy to say outrageous things from the comfort of anonymity - things that would never have been said face-to-face.

Well said. Tolerance has a lot going for it.

Ken

[muggsy]

I don't know that I totally agree with that statement about moderators doing no wrong. I'm sure there are good ones and bad ones for sure and since I'm still pretty much just a trainee I might not recognize the difference.
I have to answer to my leaders and I assume they have to answer to somebody so nothings really free.

Do feel free to utilize PM if anyone thinks I'm getting trigger happy closing threads. I haven't been chewed out for it, well maybe a couple times, well actually maybe like 6 or 7 times but hardly worth mentioning.

I do feel slightly bad sometimes closing threads but I just can't handle ugly. Course sometimes I feel really really good closing threads too.

Ahhhhh, to be in a position of real power. :)

[JFootin]

I don't know that I totally agree with that statement about moderators doing no wrong. I'm sure there are good ones and bad ones for sure and since I'm still pretty much just a trainee I might not recognize the difference.
I have to answer to my leaders and I assume they have to answer to somebody so nothings really free.

Do feel free to utilize PM if anyone thinks I'm getting trigger happy closing threads. I haven't been chewed out for it, well maybe a couple times, well actually maybe like 6 or 7 times but hardly worth mentioning.

I do feel slightly bad sometimes closing threads but I just can't handle ugly. Course sometimes I feel really really good closing threads too.

Bawanna, I get a little ticked when it is my thread and I have been behaving, but a few of the same people who are responsible for a lot of strife and a lot of closed threads come in and start flinging accusations and insults. I frankly think the better solution is, after three strikes or something, to say goodbye to the troublemakers. Which, frankly, you seem wont to do.

[TriggerMan]

All things political, in an election year, should be banned. Forums with politics...and religion..never stay civil. Some forums have a special folder with access coming only by personal request to the head Mod. Still, ugliness spills over into the general culture of the forum. We get too much political stuff in our General folder.

[JimBianchi]

Whenever I am in a heated argument and I can tell they are dug in on their point of view, spouting all kind of liberal gibberish I will pull the "You're a dumb-axx, patchouli smoking, Birkenstock wearing, long-haired hippy freak card" pretty quick.

Seems to work for me.

[TriggerMan]

I've noticed how the voting in the POLL has gone so far and I'm surprised. There seems to be a disconnect between what people say they do, i.e., apply reason AND what they really do, i.e., name call in the posts I've read since the POLL opened. Minutes ago I read two posts in other threads where the poster opined that only idiots vote for Obama. Dale Carnegie most have rolled over in his grave. For those unfamiliar with Carnegie's works, one of his famous books is titled "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_...fluence_People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People)

[JFootin]

I've noticed how the voting in the POLL has gone so far and I'm surprised. There seems to be a disconnect between what people say they do, i.e., apply reason AND what they really do, i.e., name call in the posts I've read since the POLL opened. Minutes ago I read two posts in other threads where the poster opined that only idiots vote for Obama. Dale Carnegie most have rolled over in his grave. For those unfamiliar with Carnegie's works, one of his famous books is titled "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_...fluence_People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People)

Frankly, your holier than thou attitude is unacceptable. IMO, you are one of the problem posters who gets disrepectfully in people's faces. I don't see you winning friends and influencing people around here. Always pointing your finger at people, not realizing that 3 fingers are pointing back at yourself.

[TriggerMan]

Frankly, your holier than thou attitude is unacceptable. IMO, you are one of the problem posters who gets disrepectfully in people's faces. I don't see you winning friends and influencing people around here. Always pointing your finger at people, not realizing that 3 fingers are pointing back at yourself.I guess I'm today's Anti-Christ.:(

As always, you are entitled to your opinion. That's different and not the same as being entiled to creating you own facts. THAT is unacceptable!

[popgoestheweasel]

I guess I'm today's Anti-Christ.:(

As always, you are entitled to your opinion. That's different and not the same as being entiled to creating you own facts. THAT is unacceptable!

"when is when enough" ???

[TriggerMan]

"when is when enough" ???
When I think of someone who is intellectually lazy, that .....nevermind.

Better things to do. Gonna check CNN and then Fox in turns to get election results. Starting April 1st, I'll go into silent mode until after the elections. ;)

[Bawanna]

Are we having fun here?

[Bawanna]

Bawanna, I get a little ticked when it is my thread and I have been behaving, but a few of the same people who are responsible for a lot of strife and a lot of closed threads come in and start flinging accusations and insults. I frankly think the better solution is, after three strikes or something, to say goodbye to the troublemakers. Which, frankly, you seem wont to do.

I feel a little bad about missing this post. I thought I was on top of things and while there were several little fisticuffs going on, nothing major. I guess this only reinforces my negative feelings about political discussions, especially among folks who really should all be on the same side.

I pondered reopening the When is enough, enough thread to be fair to all parties but feel it might be better to just close this one since both threads do little except aggravate me. Just messing with my little oasis.

Far as 3 strikes or problem posters we got people to deal with that, if there's an issue, don't let it fester, send a PM to Johnh, or Justin or myself or report a post.

We're done here. I think until my leader instructs me otherwise I will continue to be a little quick to shut down threads rather than let them get uglier.
Lets talk guns, girls (or guys for you ladies) and maybe pick up trucks.