High and left

[jfrey]

I've got about 350 or so rounds through my CW9 so far and it shoots consitently about 2 1/2 to 3 inches high and about 2 inches to the left. I'm getting good groups but I can't figure out why it shoots to that point on the target. I've checked out the hold chart and that isn't it. My son shoots it to the same place. I normally shoot 115 gr. ball ammo but shot some Hornady Critical Defense ammo through it today and got the same results. All shooting was done at 10 yards.

Has anyone experienced this in your CW9? Any suggestions?

I realize it is a CCW gun, not a target pistol, but this has me bugged.

[300WSM]

Mine actually shoots a bit to the right. I think with the thin grip on this gun and most of us being used to a fatter grip, that hold and trigger finger may be a bit more critical on this pistol. Just my thought.

I typically shoot to the left with all my handguns, just the way I hold them I guess.

[jeep45238]

http://www.ammoman.com/graphics/diagn_right.jpg

[jfrey]

Jeep, I looked at the chart too before I posted and I don't think that is the problem. I was very careful to align the sights correctly and noted how I was holding the pistol. The chart would indicate I am anticipating recoil which is not a problem for me. I had been shooting a 1911 before and after I shot the CW9 so I don't think anticipating recoil is an issue. My son shot the pistol to the same point of impact. Two different brands and weights of ammo shot to the same place so I am looking at something in the gun. I clean the pistol after each use and I did a complete cleaning tonight when I got home. I am going to try it again and see if maybe dirt or something was on the slide lock pin to make it lockup slightly crooked.

I'll shoot it again next weekend and see if anything is different.

[jwr]

If you and your son are both consistently hitting the same spot then at some point you may just want to drift your rear site to get windage lined up with that spot.

Even if it *is* your grip (and your son's), if you're comfortable that you're not doing anything weird (pulling, pushing, etc) and that's just the way you hold the gun, it could just be the way that gun is going to shoot for you.

If I shoot from a rest my CW9 shoots to point of aim, but off-hand it shoots just a little left for me (maybe an inch or so at 7 yards). I'm okay with that

[jeep45238]

Are you staging the trigger? What sort of grip and stance are you using? Where is your finger when you begin your pull, and where is it when the pull is over?

[hsart]

I've got about 350 or so rounds through my CW9 so far and it shoots consitently about 2 1/2 to 3 inches high and about 2 inches to the left. I'm getting good groups but I can't figure out why it shoots to that point on the target. I've checked out the hold chart and that isn't it. My son shoots it to the same place. I normally shoot 115 gr. ball ammo but shot some Hornady Critical Defense ammo through it today and got the same results. All shooting was done at 10 yards.

Has anyone experienced this in your CW9? Any suggestions?

I realize it is a CCW gun, not a target pistol, but this has me bugged.
When I get some consistently off-target results I put my target at 2 or 3 yards. I fire one shot and then try to get the next 4 in or touching the same hole. I take my time and try to relax. If I cannot perform this drill I assume that either my sights are off or I am just real tired and will try the same drill when I am fresh next time out. Seems to work for me.

[deadhead1971]

The first time I shot the PM9, I was hitting 3" left. I was disappointed. Other times, I was hitting low, and other times high, and other times dead center POA. These are in separate shooting outings. In fact, I have it documented here with photos: http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistols/444-accuracy-pm9.html

Now when I shoot (I typically shoot 200 rounds a session), I shoot about POA the first 100 rounds and then some hand fatigue sets in and I start to jerk (anticipate recoil) and hit low and left.

I expect you to have different results the next time. The PM9 and CW9 are not the same guns, but I assume the trigger pull and feel is the same.

[getsome]

Hi jfrey, Just a thought...I remember reading a post about the rear sight white line not being in the center of the notch from the factory...Is yours? If thats not the problem its time for Night Sights!!!! OH YEA...

[jeep45238]

Hi jfrey, Just a thought...I remember reading a post about the rear sight white line not being in the center of the notch from the factory...Is yours? If thats not the problem its time for Night Sights!!!! OH YEA...

Or learn to use the standard notch/post instead of banking on somebody painting a line and a dot with great vertical/horizontal precision alignment.

Seriously, a LOT of people have issues with a LOT of guns (especially bar/dot sights) becuase they focus on the DOTS.

FOCUS ON THE BLADE ITSELF AND THE NOTCH.

[jocko]

if one is shooting corrctly the front sight should be totally clear, the target and rear sight shouuld be a blur. One cannot forcus on all 3 at one time, just can't be done. The front sight is your friend, always remember that. Kahrs have a very looooong but smooth trigger system. It is very tupical for right and shooters to be left. as far as high goes, one maybe should change his sight picture more. POA is a great way to learn to shoot a kahr,. They are not target guns but close up defense guns. Due to their loooong trigger systems they are probably one of the harder guns to master also. they will shoot in the same hole, just that most all shooters cannot do it.. Practice close, get good close, forget about total concentration of the sight system. See that front sight and with POA shooting, you will get suprisingly good and FAST.

I personally think if one thinks in a critical situation that he is going to line up that white dot stuff on the rear sight etc with the front sight, he is really fooling himself. there are IMO some guns to get damn good at with "target" shooting and then there are kahrs that one should get damn good at defense situation shooting. there really is a difference.

a survey done over 10 years ago found that NYPD officers that were involved in a shooting, missed their targets at "6" feet... When the heart rate increase about 200% and your nervous are going to hell, things change real fast.

[hsart]

if one is shooting corrctly the front sight should be totally clear, the target and rear sight shouuld be a blur. One cannot forcus on all 3 at one time, just can't be done. The front sight is your friend, always remember that. Kahrs have a very looooong but smooth trigger system. It is very tupical for right and shooters to be left. as far as high goes, one maybe should change his sight picture more. POA is a great way to learn to shoot a kahr,. They are not target guns but close up defense guns. Due to their loooong trigger systems they are probably one of the harder guns to master also. they will shoot in the same hole, just that most all shooters cannot do it.. Practice close, get good close, forget about total concentration of the sight system. See that front sight and with POA shooting, you will get suprisingly good and FAST.

I personally think if one thinks in a critical situation that he is going to line up that white dot stuff on the rear sight etc with the front sight, he is really fooling himself. there are IMO some guns to get damn good at with "target" shooting and then there are kahrs that one should get damn good at defense situation shooting. there really is a difference.

a survey done over 10 years ago found that NYPD officers that were involved in a shooting, missed their targets at "6" feet... When the heart rate increase about 200% and your nervous are going to hell, things change real fast.
Interesting and on-the-money post. Lining up sights in a self-defense situation is highly overrated. I wonder how many of us train from anything but a standing position. I normally use a torso target at the range and draw from my usual carry holster as I want to simulate exactly the situation that I may encounter in a stressed SD mode. If I want to check my sights or a new handgun I will use a bullseye type target. I always find it interesting when reading reports of gunfights where police and a lot of shooting is involved - something like 45 shots fired with 2 hits. If I was in law enforcement I would constantly be at the range honing my reflexes so when a high stress situation presents itself I would go into autopilot.

[jocko]

I actually sit down alot for my shooting. due to my age. I certainly don't practice like one should for defense purposes either. But not being a LEO means alot of things are done differently also. I carry pocket concealed. I do feel the elemate of suprise for the BG is on my side where as a LEO is normally in uniform and he looses that elemate . I do practice all the time with the FBI "Q" target which as u know is just the bowling pin outline of a killing shot for a BG. If I can hold them all in there at 10 yards and under (which is a no brainer really as that is a big target) I feel very good with defense shooting. I strive for tight groups but don't get them but again I don't concentrate in shooting my PM9 like I do my G19 with good adjustable sights and a much better trigger system. One has to decide how he wants to practice but for me with my PM9 90% of my shooting drills are 7 yards and under. I feel I am good at that range and with those xs big dot sights, that front sight (which is my friend) just grabs ur eyeballs when you pull up to eye level.
I have shooting quirks like alot of kahr shooters that loooong trigger is a bugger to master. I don't feel that I have mastered it and at my age probalby not going to either, but I do feel I shoot it well enough at 7 yards and under to protect myself if needed.

the best defense in a cirtical situation, is to actualy not be there in the first place,but we know there are times when that is not ture.

I have been on gun sights for many years and I cannot actually recall a poster/gun owner having to use his gun in a shooting situation. I know there has been some no doubt , but for me I don't get paranoid in my defense drills either. I love to shoot that is the bottom line. Hopefully someday I will start to hit something with regualarity.

[hsart]

I actually sit down alot for my shooting. due to my age. I certainly don't practice like one should for defense purposes either. But not being a LEO means alot of things are done differently also. I carry pocket concealed. I do feel the elemate of suprise for the BG is on my side where as a LEO is normally in uniform and he looses that elemate . I do practice all the time with the FBI "Q" target which as u know is just the bowling pin outline of a killing shot for a BG. If I can hold them all in there at 10 yards and under (which is a no brainer really as that is a big target) I feel very good with defense shooting. I strive for tight groups but don't get them but again I don't concentrate in shooting my PM9 like I do my G19 with good adjustable sights and a much better trigger system. One has to decide how he wants to practice but for me with my PM9 90% of my shooting drills are 7 yards and under. I feel I am good at that range and with those xs big dot sights, that front sight (which is my friend) just grabs ur eyeballs when you pull up to eye level.
I have shooting quirks like alot of kahr shooters that loooong trigger is a bugger to master. I don't feel that I have mastered it and at my age probalby not going to either, but I do feel I shoot it well enough at 7 yards and under to protect myself if needed.

the best defense in a cirtical situation, is to actualy not be there in the first place,but we know there are times when that is not ture.

I have been on gun sights for many years and I cannot actually recall a poster/gun owner having to use his gun in a shooting situation. I know there has been some no doubt , but for me I don't get paranoid in my defense drills either. I love to shoot that is the bottom line. Hopefully someday I will start to hit something with regualarity.
We're probably about the same age - I'm a tad over 60, and I cannot imagine ever considering firing over a 7 yard range, so I practice mostly at 5-7 yards and sometimes go out to 10-15 yards just to keep in a bit of practice. I would think that any BG over 21 feet away is not an immediate threat and best to quickly get a way from. The q targets are great - I use a camo'd BG target with body features so I can practice 2 to the torso and one to the head. I find my PM45 consistently more accurate on head shots than my Glock 19 for some reason. I usually alternate both guns at the range. I'm planning to put the big dot sights on my next gun purchase - either a PM9 or a P380. I use a belt slide for my PM45 as I usually just wear a shirt over it most of the year here in Florida. Much more comfortable for all day wear than an IWB for my body shape.

[paul0660]

MIne shot 4-6 inches to the left at 7-10 yards. I intended to drift the sight but sold it first. My K9 shoot right on.

[jfrey]

Let me see if i can answer a few questions: 1. I am not staging the trigger. I don't like that method, I just pull it through. 2. I had just started shooting so I wasn't fatigued. 3. The white line seems to be pretty straight and evenly centered on the rear sight. 4. I am stacking the white dot right on top of the line which lines up across the top of the front and rear sights. The funny thing to me is that I would expect to be shooting low with this type of trigger pull. I had that problem really bad with a Ruger SR9. Another gun, another story.

I drifted the rear sight slightly to the right last night and that should cure the horizontal problem. The vertical problem I still think is something in the gun and possibly the way the barrel locks up. If it just shoots that way, I'll just remember the immortal words of Bob Wills, "shoot low son, she's ridin a Shetland".

I'll shoot a few more rounds this weekend and let you all knoiw what happens. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[jocko]

quite possably just more rounds down range and you and the gun will find that right technique. I might have missed it to but what distance are you shooting. With the looong kahr triggers,c ertainlymost shots are low and not high... Drifting that sight is what it is there for also. have you tried any POA type shooting?

[mr surveyor]

I'm not expert, and my personal advice is probably rarely worth the time it takes to read or hear it, but two things I have learned to do to analyze shooting issues with new firearms, handguns in particular, are:

1. Test the handgun's accuracy/precision by shooting from a stable bench rest... at the least use solid sandbag type rest... have more than one experienced shooter give it a try

2. Test the Operator's hold, stance and trigger control using the subject handgun with the "wall drill" dry fire technique. Even though there are inexpensive (and expensive) "training lasers" on the market, the wall drill, using the factory sights will more closely simulate real shooting styles and you won't be mesmerized by the red dot waving around.

just my $0.28 worth

surv

[getsome]

One other thing I will mention...Before having night sights installed when shooting with the factory dot over line sight (I had never used this type of sight before and really don't care for it) anyway I found myself shooting low and found that I was making the dot touch the line which would result in a low shot...If I'm not mistaken the sight picture should look like a small i with space between the bar and dot....After shooting it that way the groups came on target...Now with the night sights it shoots right on at 15 yards and they are like the 3 dot sights on all my other pistols....Get them if you can...they are nisssse....

[GCE61]

Let me see if i can answer a few questions: 1. I am not staging the trigger. I don't like that method, I just pull it through. 2. I had just started shooting so I wasn't fatigued. 3. The white line seems to be pretty straight and evenly centered on the rear sight. 4. I am stacking the white dot right on top of the line which lines up across the top of the front and rear sights. The funny thing to me is that I would expect to be shooting low with this type of trigger pull. I had that problem really bad with a Ruger SR9. Another gun, another story.

I drifted the rear sight slightly to the right last night and that should cure the horizontal problem. The vertical problem I still think is something in the gun and possibly the way the barrel locks up. If it just shoots that way, I'll just remember the immortal words of Bob Wills, "shoot low son, she's ridin a Shetland".

I'll shoot a few more rounds this weekend and let you all knoiw what happens. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Jfrey, you're on the right track with this statement above. Drifing the rear sight will correct the windage. The elevation is from the front sight being too short for that particular gun. After reading all your posts it seems like you have a good understanding of the mechanics of firing a pistol and I think that particular gun just shoots high/left. Thant's all.

Alot of the guys are discussing technique, which is also important, especially with a gun which has a small grip and kicks a bit due to light weight. It sounds like you are doing a good job in the technique department, but one thing to consider with small defensive type guns is to "get behind" the gun while firing. Make sure the gun is in line with your forearm, and your hand is gripping it behind the gun, as compared to the more comfy grip of your palm being "on the side" of the gun.

Todd Jarrett has a good shooting video on youtube which demonstrates this and it's worth a look.

Good luck!
Greg

[jfrey]

Ran some more rounds through my CW9 today and after drifting the sight slightly to the right, the horizontal problem is fixed. I even had to move it back left just a hair as I was to far to the right at first. That problem solved.

As to the vertical problem of 2 to 3 inches high, I guess I'm going to have to live with it like that. If it wasn't so consistent, I would think it was me but the groups are good and in the same place. I can always lower my point of aim when I shoot and find that to be easier than having to raise it if a gun is shooting low.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is a carry gun not a target pistol. I know where it is shooting and my groups are small enough to be confident carrying it anyway.

[jocko]

I would think just getting alittle different sight picture can take care of that part . If it bugs you that much, you could do alittle work on that front sight. Kahrs sights their guns with 124 grain ammo at 15 yards if that helps any. I personally am all over the damn target at 15 yards, my forte is close up at 7 yards and under and my groups out of my PM9 are certainly not 2" groups either at that distance,but IMO it is very accurate for me and very fast for me and the xs big dot sights are not indicative of what one would expect from target type sights. And I accept that to..I would suggest using more POA shooting than trying to align the sights up so perfeclty, as in a defense situation, I can assure you that is not going to happen. The front sight is your friend, see it clearly and the target shoud be alitte blurred. The eyes cannot focus clearly on the rear, front and target, just can't be done. Pick the front sight and the rest will fall right in place and POA shooting for defense purposes is fast, it is accurate .. It is the preferred methond of true defense shooting..

[jfrey]

Jocko, all your points are well taken. I was not aware of the 124 gr. ammo situation but that explains the whole "high" thing. The 115 gr. bullets I am shooting will print high at 10 yds. because of it. I can compensate for that.
I had special shooting glasses made that make the rear sight clear and blur the rest as you suggested. They work really well for this. I probably wouldn't be wearing them in a defense situation though so everything would be blurry then. The best I can do is see the dots and get thm as close as I can together and go from there. It's hard when you get older and your eyes get bad.

[Vincent]

Two things.

1. I worked with a total novice shooter and my SIG 239 and my CW9.
He was aiming at the head on a man shaped target @ 15 yds and consistently shooting off the head to the right. I corrected his hold, same thing. I watched where his finger was on the trigger and he had the trigger in the first joint. WRONG!! I had him shoot with the trigger centered on the first pad of his trigger finger and the shots moved right on to the target.

I explained to him if you use just the tip you will pull the front sight left. If you put the trigger in the middle of the trigger the sight stays centered. Put the trigger in the joint of the finger and the sight gets pulled right.

2. When we were finished an older gentleman with a trick 1911 stopped me. "I heard what you were telling him so I tried it" I thought now this guy is going to disagree in front of the new guy. But no. He showed us a target he just shot with three groups. One was left. One was right. the last was centered. He tried what I was teaching and was amazed it worked just as explained.

Try this dry firing and concentrate on your front sight and you will see that it is true.

[jocko]

Jocko, all your points are well taken. I was not aware of the 124 gr. ammo situation but that explains the whole "high" thing. The 115 gr. bullets I am shooting will print high at 10 yds. because of it. I can compensate for that.
I had special shooting glasses made that make the rear sight clear and blur the rest as you suggested. They work really well for this. I probably wouldn't be wearing them in a defense situation though so everything would be blurry then. The best I can do is see the dots and get thm as close as I can together and go from there. It's hard when you get older and your eyes get bad.

u should see the front sight clear as a bell and the rest will fall into place . I am 66 and look tghrough no line bifocals.. It is not easy as u know but concentrate on that front sight and your shots will start to fall in place.

good luck.

[Bawanna]

u should see the front sight clear as a bell and the rest will fall into place . I am 66 and look tghrough no line bifocals.. It is not easy as u know but concentrate on that front sight and your shots will start to fall in place.

good luck.

66! Somebody told me you were 36 and sometimes acted 16. You go guy.

[deadhead1971]

If you put the trigger in the middle of the trigger the sight stays centered.

? Do you mean that the trigger is in between the tip (finger nail) and the first joint of the index finger?


I explained to him if you use just the tip you will pull the front sight left.

Does this mean holding the trigger too close to the tip (finger nail)?

When I shoot, the trigger is in between the finger nail and the first joint but I make no conscious effort to place it in any particular spot in between those 2 points. I am not being a smart-aleck; I want to figure out your technique. I want to try it too.

[Vincent]

? Do you mean that the trigger is in between the tip (finger nail) and the first joint of the index finger?

Yes that is what I mean.

Does this mean holding the trigger too close to the tip (finger nail)?

Yes again.

When I shoot, the trigger is in between the finger nail and the first joint but I make no conscious effort to place it in any particular spot in between those 2 points. I am not being a smart-aleck; I want to figure out your technique. I want to try it too.

Like I said try watching the sights while dry firing. If you have your finger in the correct place the sight will stay in one spot the whole time you pull the trigger.

This is not "my idea" but pretty well accepted technique. Hope that it helps.;)