Do your primers look like this?

[Kahrbonized]

While doing my normal post range session cataloging of info I noticed more than normal primer smear from my CM9. Here are a few photos to show what I mean...

http://kahrtalk.com/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/?action=view&current=k-124-oemFedHST-2.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22h ttp://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/k-124-oemFedHST-2.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Kahr%20CM9%20Pr imer%20smear,%20A%20little%20more%20than%20what%20 glock%20does%22%3E%3C/a%3Ehttp://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/k-124-oemFedHST-2.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/k-124-oemFedHST-2e.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/k-124-oemFedHST-2d.jpg



http://kahrtalk.com/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/?action=view&current=k-124-oemFedHST-2e.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22 http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/k-124-oemFedHST-2e.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Closer%20view, %20Federal%20124gr%20HST%22%3E%3C/a%3EThese are of factory Federal 124gr HST +P but all of the various ammo I shot look like this including some light loads.

Now I know this "type" of smear is normal with most semi-autos but this appears a little excessive as it is tearing metal more than normal.
http://kahrtalk.com/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/?action=view&current=k-124-oemFedHST-2d.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22 http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/k-124-oemFedHST-2d.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Side%20Shot,%2 0OEM%20loading%22%3E%3C/a%3E
Seems to me to be a timing issue where the case is ejecting before the firing pin is retracted out of the way. What do you think? What could be causing it... long firing pin? weak firing pin spring? Weak recoil spring?

Is this something that will smooth out with use or is it something I should have the factory look at ?

[Gliderguy]

mine don't hit that hard. maybe 2/3 that much gash. That gun is a definite candidate for the 5 # striker spring. (stock is about 6 pounds). a side benefit is a slightlly lighter trigger pull. I have the PM 40, not the 9, but I think the striker and spring is the same.

[Tilos]

Nice pics and a graphic example of where the smooge in the striker channel comes from.

[jocko]

hell leave it alone the striker spring itself will like the recoil spring take a pre designed set I have no idea what a NORMAL primer smear is, so if I was u I would apapreciate the fact that your getting such good p[rimer/firing pin contact. the smear only happens after the bang thing so ur good to good. I would bet most never even look at that smear. Just shoot it like u stole it.

Just sayin.

[Tinman507]

Why not buy a set of lighter springs? Couldn't hurt?
Wolf's has them in 3 packs.
Wolf GunSprings (http://www.gunsprings.com/)

[Kahrbonized]

Thanks for the heads up, I often use Wolff springs and will check them out. Cheap way to check if the springs are the issue.

The only reason I would be concerned about this is if pieces of metal start getting into places they shouldn't and cause abnormal wear, damage or jams. As long as they stay attached to the case, and there isn't excessive striker damage or wear then its not a big issue.

For reference, here are a couple Normal smears 147JHP SubSonic , the first is typical of S&W and the second is from a Sig, and is also very typical of many semi autos. As you can tell the Kahr is abnormal.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/oemWWSubsonic-1.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/oemWinSubsonic-5.jpg

[jocko]

some primers could also have a softer outter covering. Another reaso to always spray clean that striker channel, Just error on the side of caution. Glocks do that also. It think it is a characteristic of striker fired guns. Andl glocks also have that little clean out hole up front like the kahrs.

[Gliderguy]

I am thinking that the firing pin might also be on he long side of in spec. a couple of thousandths could do that. My worry would be if you actually start perforating primers on the initial hit and how much gas blowback that might cause. Definitely could start blowing lots of crud into the striker channel, which might make for a self healing problem., pretty sure most locked breech pistols do that.. momentum of rear moving slide keeps the firing pin "pinned" hard against the primer, then the barrel starts camming down and the gash is made.

[jocko]

kahr is gonna tellu it is normal, whiich imo it is. Until it perforates primers, ur assumiing something that more than likely is never gonna happen. If in doubt buy a new striker . I don't think kahr will provide one when IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT. Just sayin

[Kahrbonized]

Gliderguy, Also notice that it isn't centered like the other two examples, so as you say when the barrel cams down and causes the smear, because it is closer to the edge it shears more than the others.

Jocko, if I want an uninformed opinion and drivel, I'll ask for it. until then go have another beer, your spelling isn't up to normal.

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it's OK I found the ignore list

[gb6491]

...
For reference, here are a couple Normal smears 147JHP SubSonic , the first is typical of S&W and the second is from a Sig, and is also very typical of many semi autos. As you can tell the Kahr is abnormal....
Actually, that's pretty common in striker fired guns (do a goggle search for "Glock primer smear") that do not have a spring in front of the striker.
Regards,
Greg

[gb6491]

kahr is gonna tellu it is normal, ...
Quite right, they address it as such on page 23 of the manual:
http://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf
regards,
Greg

[Tilos]

Fluff and puff (polish) the striker pin end and it'll slide across the primer easier.
just sayin'

[Kahrbonized]

Thanks for your input Greg,
I'm aware of the glock smear and of other striker fired guns, like the Sig 290 photo I posted. My M&P does it, My XD's do it, even my Kimber 1911 has a little of it(hammer fired no less). This one appears a little too much IMO.
I'm just trying to diagnose it and decide if it is a problem or I should be more concerned due to the possibility of wear, breakage or jam. I hadn't noticed that the impact is off center a little. that might explain it. I was under the impression that it occurred during ejection and hadn't thought about when the barrel cams down. Gives me an idea to explore. I will keep an eye on it and see how it progresses.

Thanks

[Tinman507]

Jocko, if I want an uninformed opinion and drivel, I'll ask for it. until then go have another beer, your spelling isn't up to normal.

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it's OK I found the ignore list

Wow! Pretty harsh reply for someone who gave you the correct answer dontcha think? And no apology either. Hmmm.

[Bawanna]

Wow! Pretty harsh reply for someone who gave you the correct answer dontcha think? And no apology either. Hmmm.

Agreed. He takes a little getting used to and his spelling and typing skills aren't up to snuff but if you read em long enough it almost seems natural.

We hold Jocko in pretty high esteem around here, he's more than earned his status helping many many people and members here. We've had to turn over his post count 3 times so far so don't let that fool you into thinking that he's not been around.

The ignore button is fine and dandy if that works, but walk softly around Jocko.

[JFootin]

Agreed. He takes a little getting used to and his spelling and typing skills aren't up to snuff but if you read em long enough it almost seems natural.

We hold Jocko in pretty high esteem around here, he's more than earned his status helping many many people and members here. We've had to turn over his post count 3 times so far so don't let that fool you into thinking that he's not been around.

The ignore button is fine and dandy if that works, but walk softly around Jocko.

I think the most appropriate response is in your signature, Bawanna: "Cue sound of Head slap." :mad:

[TominCA]

My MK9 does that so I called up Kahr to ask them about it and Jay laughed and told me to read the manual - Yep - it's in there - a funny primer strike - Looks like the firing pin actually is dragged along the primer as the slide recoils.

[PYROhafe]

this kahrbonized guy didnt wonder over here from TFL did he? We know how well they like jocko over there.... o well... if he chooses to ignore jocko, its his loss on some great info

[jocko]

Gliderguy, Also notice that it isn't centered like the other two examples, so as you say when the barrel cams down and causes the smear, because it is closer to the edge it shears more than the others.

Jocko, if I want an uninformed opinion and drivel, I'll ask for it. until then go have another beer, your spelling isn't up to normal.

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it's OK I found the ignore list

someone sure must have sh-t in ur lunchbox. Good attitude, it will get u far, as this forum is very good about helping people who ask for help and advice and then sh-t on their answers..

[Kahrbonized]

I don't believe that was the correct answer or even close to addressing any of my questions and I quit going to TFL years ago, on my own and not because I had to either.
I may be new here but I certainly am not new to firearms. I ask a legit technical question for discussion and I gave examples and explained what I see and why I'm concern about it. The replies are pretty uninformative except for a couple of you who saw what I was talking about and responded in an educated manner. I am not the only one to recently take offense to being dismissed offhand as if I don't know what I'm talking about or that my concern is unimportant.
He seems to want to be the star of the show but he spews the same garbage advice in post after post. I just got tired of it, I am not interested in what Kahr might say, I am not interested in ignoring it until something happens and I am not interested in listening to the same talk-down I see given to other posters over and over again. People that come here with questions and are talked to like they are green-eared never-seen-a-gun-before teenagers. Legitimate issues or questions are glossed over and people are frequently told to "get over it" and "deal with it", IN ALL CAPS, as if their not important enough to answer.
That doesn't help anyone and doesn't allow new shooters to learn. If someone wants to be taken seriously they shouldn't come across like a drunken sailor. The forum software also has a spell checker to help with that.

I suppose its too much to ask to read what I post and reply to those specifics. How many times do I have to say that I am familiar with the mark put there by many different guns as being normal. I don't care if Glocks do it. Its also not relevant that the manual tries to explain that this gun normally makes an elongated primer also, BECAUSE this particular one is not normal-it is tearing metal. Look at the other two pics I posed - they are what normal elongated primer smears look like. Also for discussion I'd like to say that I don't think its just striker designs that make this type of mark. after all it is just a firing pin tip - why wouldn't a hammer fired gun also make this mark during unlock?

As I said before, I am only trying to have a discussion to try and figure out what is going on and then with that information I will decide what to do about it.

[Kahrbonized]

My MK9 does that so I called up Kahr to ask them about it and Jay laughed and told me to read the manual - Yep - it's in there - a funny primer strike - Looks like the firing pin actually is dragged along the primer as the slide recoils.

Tom, I know it's hard to see without a microscope or hi-power magnifier, but is yours as bad as mine? Every one of mine are like this not just a couple. In fact does ANYONE here have primer strikes that rip the metal like mine do? Not the normal elongated mark.

If I were to pierce a thin cup, I would have hot gas cutting my breech face at the least.

I suppose under some extreme circumstance might be possible to get the pin bound up in a hard cup and maybe break the tip of the striker or pull some primer metal into the action.

What would happen with a loose primer that might come out of the pocket? lots of what ifs, most may not ever happen.

[Tilos]

Why not push the striker out to see how much protrudes on both the Kahr and the other gun that you feel is "normal".
And if there is a difference, stone and polish the kahr's striker to match the the "normal" gun.
Or point out this difference to Kahr, your concern about it, and if they want to "fix" it for you.
At the very least this will quantify the amount of striker that protrudes, instead of looking at primer marks from different guns.

just askin'
Tilos

At the risk of being accused of talking down to the OP I want to remind those others who may not know a striker pin has a shoulder that limits the forward travel as to NOT pierce the primer.

Here's a graphic for the newbies...not the OP.:D

http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Glock23/P2Glock.html

[CJB]

That gun is a definite candidate for the 5 # striker spring.

I dont see hard hits there.

Also keep in mind - the striker is NOT tensioned when its fully forward. Instead, its moving forward through inertia, and... it has no retraction spring.

Clean the striker channel. But also realize that under recoil, the strikers own weight its holding it forward against the primer, where its likely to smear - as is mentioned in the Kahr manual, just for that reason.

If the striker is not binding due to crap in the channel, leave it alone. If there is crap there - clean it, then leave it alone.

[TominCA]

I have two P380's and both of them do it - but not as much. My PM9 does it but slightly less than in your photos. My MK9 primer strikes look exactly like yours.

I can always find my brass at the range!

BTW = the PM9 is my fave of these pistols but he P380 is more fun to shoot. Got one tricked out with "Da beam" and that is really a hoot. I must have over 2000 rounds on it.

[Allen]

Have only been to the range once with my new CM9, did the cleaning before and after, everything seems to be running fine. Where is the striker channel channel that needs cleaning, and how is the striker removed? Does the back end of the slide have to be removed (which from one video I saw looks to be a real hand full) in order to get to the striker and channel? Or can it be cleaned with just the slide removed from the frame?

Please excuse if this is a dumb question. I'm a nuwbe to the Kahrs and trying to learn everything I can about them. Am used to S & W and Winchesters so I'm treading in unfamiliar territory but trying to learn as much as possible.

Great Forum and enjoy all the questions and answers.

[Blue150]

Clean the striker channel; if that don't fix it let it be, won't hurt nothin'.

[kerby9mm]

Kahrbonized I think Tilos has a good idea of the pushing out the striker and comparing with another gun. I only have a phone so I am limited on my view so I hope I got this right from memory. I would like to see a pic of your striker out all the way to compare to my mk pistols. Spent cases tell a story like bent case mouth indentations in other places whatever but those primers are IMO something to worry about. IMO anything that departs from the norn could be a potential problem. This might have been already been said (O Well) I would email Kahr with pics that way it is documented for down the road problem.

[jocko]

u may not be new to guns but u are certainly new to showing any kind of respect on this forum..

No doubt I would not pay a bit of attention to ANYTHING KAHR posts in their manual. Hell what do they know???

You have grown a giant bon-r on for me for some reason and in all caps. I must say FOKK YOU.

[Kahrbonized]

OK, I'll see if I can get a pic of the striker tip extending out. I think the only valid comparison would be to another CM9 or maybe one of the other models that use the same slide assembly. I agree, comparing it with my XD or M&P would not be a valid comparison at all.

After closer inspection of the exploded drawing in the manual, I can probably dismiss changing the striker spring initially. I wouldn't want to introduce a lite strike issue at this point.

Thanks for 'splainin it to me CJB... I see that I was wrong in my thinking there was a spring on the front of the striker to retract the pin after firing, as you pointed out, the only striker spring actually pushes . So, before I bother Kahr or go barking up an empty tree I will learn a little more on how this gun works. I seem to always learn something new.

[PYROhafe]

Mine are elongated, but they don't look like it took some extra metal with it. Ide go with sending those pics to kahr n see what they say.

[redbeardmcg]

My primer strikes look identical, elongated and with torn metal near the rim on the outside of the primer. The odd thing is, my primer strikes were normal (albeit elongated) until I started running +P rounds through my PM9. A detail strip and clean of the striker channel did not reveal anything out of the ordinary, and didn't fix the issue. I haven't had any pierced primers so I had taken the easy way out (ignore it) until I came across this post.

Best of luck figuring it out, and please do post your results back!

-Ryan

[muggsy]

Don't fix what ain't broke.

[OldLincoln]

I would want to take a look though as it seems to me that dragging the primer with the pin in it puts a side load on the striker for which it isn't designed.

[Tilos]

I see that I was wrong in my thinking there was a spring on the front of the striker to retract the pin after firing, as you pointed out, the only striker spring actually pushes.

And the very reason I suggested POLISHING the striker tip, making sure it tapers towards the front, on ALL surfaces, so the barrel dropping will actually push the striker BACK...instead of tearing metal from the primer.

If you had asked what time it is, some here would tell you how to build a watch, and I tend to be to the point without a lot of explanation.

Say what you want about my suggestion to compare the amount of protrusion to another brand but I believe it would be relavent here.

No need to acknowledge that MY post got you to consider these points as relative to your problem.

If one was to follow the link I posted you would see the the striker in the graphics has a 45 degree angle both top and bottom to help minimize primer smear as well as having a narrower width than height.
(Yeh, I know it's a glock)

I'll go away now,
Tilos

[Kahrbonized]

Stick around Tilos, your posts are informative, helpful and humorous, I don't mind telling someone when their time and effort to go into detail is appreciated.

I took my slide off and looked at what is happening without removing the striker. Here are the steps I went through...


Lock slide back - pin is retracted in hole



release slide-look down barrel with light - cannot see striker tip.



Pull trigger to release striker - look down barrel - cant see striker tip



slowly pull back slide with light on breech- striker tip appears flush with breech



Remove slide & barrel - Striker tip protrudes. Can push it in with pen tip and it will retract back into slide & can hear striker block click. will stay back until striker block is pushed down then it will slide forward and protrude.

Took a picture of the protrusion...


http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd500/syberdog/Misc/SlideStriker-.jpg

Everything functions fine and there isn't any binding or drag.

Measure the pin protrusion by using the caliper tail, thru barrel opening in slide, from front slide face to breech face & then to tip of protruding pin. Subtract the distance to the tip from the dist. to breech face.

With a digital caliper I get = 3.035"-2.99"=.045"
With a Dial caliper I get 3.03"-2.99"=.040"

It looks like the striker protrudes at least 40 thousands and remains out of the breech until the slide hits it's stop and the striker inertia causes it to slide past the striker stop which clicks into place keeping it from coming back out.

Almost all of the ammo I fired the other day was higher pressure +P SD loads and some warm handloads. So I looked at some more primers and I do find some that are not shearing the metal and look more like normal. These seem to be with lower pressure 'range' ammo.

This seems to agree with what Redbeard mentioned with his experience and may be pointing in the right direction.

I am now thinking along the lines that the higher pressure rounds are causing the barrel unlock, recoil sequence to happen sooner and faster on the pressure curve which is producing this result.

I appreciate your suggestion to polish the face of the striker and it may have merit, but I am reluctant to start changing length and angles with that particular part until I have a spare on hand. I probably will check my other striker guns to see what they are but that will probably only give me a ballpark idea as they are different systems and IMO, don't really have any bearing on Kahr's design specs.

I wonder what the striker protrusion spec is and might contact CS to see what they have to say. I am starting to think there is nothing wrong and this may just be one of this gun's quirks with higher pressure load or an unintended artifact of this particular design. Anyone care to measure theirs and as above and compare your findings if different from .40"?

[CJB]

I see that I was wrong in my thinking there was a spring on the front of the striker to retract the pin after firing, as you pointed out, the only striker spring actually pushes

I forget what they call it... I call it the carrier. Its the little horseshoe shaped cup in the striker. That part moves forward only so far. The striker then keeps goin on its own, to strike the firing pin. There is tension - friction really - from the parts, and maybe crap in the channel.

Clean channel = happy channel

Its the nature of the design to smear primers. When you look at how it works... it almost can't help but smear 'em, as there is no retraction spring. OTOH, 1911's and Brownings will sometimes smear primers. Smith 39/59 did it too (I have a lot of experience with those).

[Kahrbonized]

I measured my M&P 40c and My XD 40sc. When I first measured the M&P I was just about ready to concede to Tilos, and eat my crow. After all, I hadn't considered there must be a universal spec all the manuf. have to be within because the ammo is to a spec and it really is just another part in the system.

My first measurement for the S&W yielded .043" - almost exactly what my Kahr is. I held the pin outward firmly and measured again - this time i got .054" That a pretty big difference so I measured several more times, making sure I was square with the slide and I kept getting either .043" or .054" (+/- .01) and nothing in between. I'll look at that again in the morning to see where my difference is.

I also did the XD. That striker pin can really protrude on this one - a full .061" by several measurements. However, it also has a rebound spring that brings it back to a point where it is only sticking out .034" - which is also close to the Kahr but a bit shorter.

There you have it, they are similar but different. .040" looks to be the general amount of protrusion so I am pretty satisfied it is probably within spec.

It's late and my eyes are getting tired so I will verify this tomorrow.

[Kahrbonized]

They list that as a striker spacer.
When I have a bit more time,I plan on taking the striker out to clean the channel (I doubt there is anything really in there, but I need the exercise) and to maybe visualize what polishing can be done as Tilos was suggesting.

[muggsy]

Wow! Pretty harsh reply for someone who gave you the correct answer dontcha think? And no apology either. Hmmm.

Some people are just A-holes. I put them on my ignore list.

[center_mass]

I have a CM9 and my primers look like the pics in the OP.....

shoots fine...I ain't worried about it.