Pissed off a friend of mine.

[TheTman]

I went to Gander Mountain today with a friend to look at some 1911's. My friend kept looking at different guns and sweeping the muzzle across the clerks chest. I mentioned to him that it was pretty rude to point a gun at someone, even the clerk who just made sure the gun was unloaded, the only person that heard was my friend and the clerk, and I asked the clerk if he got tired of guns being pointed at him all the time? And he said sure, but it kind of comes with the job. Then my friend mentioned something to the clerk about buying the same gun on the internet and saving some money, and I whispered to him that's not very cool to come in and waste a clerks time then tell him you're going to buy the gun on the internet. Anyway when we got outside, my friend said he really wanted to kick my ass for embarrassing him in front of the salesman. He said the store was so crowded that he couldn't find a place to check out the sights without the barrel covering someone, and I suggested using the floor, the walls above everyone's head, or the ceiling or someplace other than at the clerk. He said well I've seen you do the same thing, and I said yes, sometimes I do cover a person with the muzzle while handing it to then after I've safety checked it, and I want him to say something when he catches me doing something like that, I never do it intenionally. I sure never mind being corrected. After all if he were to do that in a competition he'd could get a warning or be disqualified and he is wanting to get into competition, so I thought I was being helpful. I told him also to let me know if my finger slips into the trigger guard and call me out on that too (that's my big weakness). I had no problem keeping the guns pointed in a safe direction while checking out the sights and trigger pull and stuff. This guy is kind of new to buying guns in a shop, so I thought I was being helpful, but he said I came across as being kind of short and bossy, and I didn't mean to, just trying to offer some good advice. I always try and avoid sweeping the muzzle across the salesman or anyone else for that matter, no matter what condition the gun is in, slide open, closed, or with the cylinder open or closed. I might add this same fellow shot a hole through his wall last week after thinking he had unloaded it, he racked the slide THEN dropped the mag and pulled the trigger and boom.
Do you all think I should I have just shut up and let him do his thing, or should I have spoken up like I did and mention that he was being rude, and acting like he's never handled a gun in a store before?
I just figured with him being kind of a newbie to gun buying in stores (he buys most his guns 2nd hand), he would appreciate the advice, but I guess I really pissed him off.. We talked it over afterwards and made peace, but it still bothers me that I pissed off my friend that badly over common gun handling. Gun safety is very important to me, and I don't mind being corrected if I do something rude or dangerous, and I figured most people don't mind being corrected in what I thought was polite way. I was a bit tired so maybe I was short and bossy, but that was totally unintentional.
The guy wanted me to come and give him my advice on which 1911 to buy, So I didn't figure he'd care if I made a couple suggestions on his gun etiquette. I know people point guns at salesmen all the time, but I try and not do that, I think it's very rude and a sign of someone who doesn't know what they are doing, and apologise to the salesperson if I accidently cover him with the muzzle.

[paperpuncher]

My wife just had an accidental discharge last week. Luckily she had it pointed in a safe direction. You just never know.

[KMA]

I think you did the right thing, I should have do done the same. And I have done it too; several times. I have even told the sellers to do not point the gun at me.



My wife just had an accidental discharge last week. Luckily she had it pointed in a safe direction. You just never know.

Accidental discharge :confused:? You mean a negligent discharge, right?

[AJBert]

I see this day in and day out at work and it just makes me wonder what kind of training, if any, do these people have in gun safety. What is worse is to see the parents hand a gun to a child and the child does the same with no correction from the parents.

The good folks behind the counter know this behaviour is the norm unfortunately and let is slide. The comment about the internet buy was completely out of line.

And I agree you should have said something on both counts.

[rholmes69]

Better to warn him and lose a friend than to watch someone lose their life over an accidental discharge. You can be rest assured he will have pretty damn good gun control whenever he is around you now....

[paperpuncher]

I think you did the right thing, I should have do done the same. And I have done it too; several times. I have even told the sellers to do not point the gun at me.




Accidental discharge :confused:? You mean a negligent discharge, right?

Right

[tilefish]

OP, I had almost the exact same situation a few weeks ago. I had introduced an acquaintance from work to shooting last year around this time. He liked it quite a bit and while I never went with him again, he did find others to go with. In other words, this guy has been shooting for a yer now. Mostly renting guns and going with others. Anyway, he mentioned he was finally ready to buy something so I offered to go to the shop with him to look a few guns. I was SHOCKED at the way this guy handled a gun. Similar to your guy. Sweeping the clerk, finger on the trigger etc... The clerk made an obvious point of stepping aside several times. I told him several times not to do it and to keep his finger off the trigger, but he kept doing it. Finally the clerk got a little uptight with him, and I don't blame him either. It never ceases to amaze me... Why are some people so stupid?
A week later the range this clown goes to had a ND. Some guy shot his friend in the leg. The usual story, "I thought it was empty". I thought it was the guy from work, but it wasn't. Apparently there are lots of these people around...

[muggsy]

I went to Gander Mountain today with a friend to look at some 1911's. My friend kept looking at different guns and sweeping the muzzle across the clerks chest. I mentioned to him that it was pretty rude to point a gun at someone, even the clerk who just made sure the gun was unloaded, the only person that heard was my friend and the clerk, and I asked the clerk if he got tired of guns being pointed at him all the time? And he said sure, but it kind of comes with the job. Then my friend mentioned something to the clerk about buying the same gun on the internet and saving some money, and I whispered to him that's not very cool to come in and waste a clerks time then tell him you're going to buy the gun on the internet. Anyway when we got outside, my friend said he really wanted to kick my ass for embarrassing him in front of the salesman. He said the store was so crowded that he couldn't find a place to check out the sights without the barrel covering someone, and I suggested using the floor, the walls above everyone's head, or the ceiling or someplace other than at the clerk. He said well I've seen you do the same thing, and I said yes, sometimes I do cover a person with the muzzle while handing it to then after I've safety checked it, and I want him to say something when he catches me doing something like that, I never do it intenionally. I sure never mind being corrected. After all if he were to do that in a competition he'd could get a warning or be disqualified and he is wanting to get into competition, so I thought I was being helpful. I told him also to let me know if my finger slips into the trigger guard and call me out on that too (that's my big weakness). I had no problem keeping the guns pointed in a safe direction while checking out the sights and trigger pull and stuff. This guy is kind of new to buying guns in a shop, so I thought I was being helpful, but he said I came across as being kind of short and bossy, and I didn't mean to, just trying to offer some good advice. I always try and avoid sweeping the muzzle across the salesman or anyone else for that matter, no matter what condition the gun is in, slide open, closed, or with the cylinder open or closed. I might add this same fellow shot a hole through his wall last week after thinking he had unloaded it, he racked the slide THEN dropped the mag and pulled the trigger and boom.
Do you all think I should I have just shut up and let him do his thing, or should I have spoken up like I did and mention that he was being rude, and acting like he's never handled a gun in a store before?
I just figured with him being kind of a newbie to gun buying in stores (he buys most his guns 2nd hand), he would appreciate the advice, but I guess I really pissed him off.. We talked it over afterwards and made peace, but it still bothers me that I pissed off my friend that badly over common gun handling. Gun safety is very important to me, and I don't mind being corrected if I do something rude or dangerous, and I figured most people don't mind being corrected in what I thought was polite way. I was a bit tired so maybe I was short and bossy, but that was totally unintentional.
The guy wanted me to come and give him my advice on which 1911 to buy, So I didn't figure he'd care if I made a couple suggestions on his gun etiquette. I know people point guns at salesmen all the time, but I try and not do that, I think it's very rude and a sign of someone who doesn't know what they are doing, and apologise to the salesperson if I accidently cover him with the muzzle.

Don't let it bother you. Just tell your friend that it's better to be pissed off than pissed on. No excuse for pointing a gun at anyone if you don't intend to shoot them.

[Disapointed]

I have lost two hunting partners, that continued to sweep me with their 12 gauge while chukar hunting. It became a not so fun game during hunting I would call out "barrel", "Barrel, "barrel" time and time, and time again. Occasionally they would shout out, we're 60 yards away from each other, or, safety is on. Have not hunted with either one since.
- I see this happen in gun shops all of the time. It' pisses me off. I learned in Minnesota at the age of 12 in hunter safety; point muzzle in safe direction, No IFS ANDS OR BUTS. PERIOD. On the one in a million a gun goes off incidentally, if it's pointed in a safe direction, no one will be harmed.

[PYROhafe]

Im with disapointed... I dont hunt, but this is not the guy i want to go to the range with! If you cant follow the basic rules of gun safety, I dont trust you with a gun! Period. Im not saying im perfect by any means, but I try my best to be, and if I slip up and someone calls me on it, great. Thats one less possible dangerous ND.

[air8]

I have a friend who muzzle sweeps at the range. He always has the slide open when done firing but he still sweeps me and the few others that might be there. And every time he does it I speak to him, "Muzzle." I can tell he gets frustrated but I don't know if his frustration is towards me or himself. Either way I let him know. I hope he would return the same favor to me by warning me if I were breaking one of the rules.

[kerby9mm]

IMO anyone with any training should be aware enough not to point the muzzle at something breathing. What is the first rule of handling a gun? It should be instinctive to point in a safe direction whether action is open or not. Common sense is not present in everyone. As for the guy that sweeps his gun at the range where is the range officer. The range wouldn't ban him anyway because they want his money.

[Barth]

We all love and respect guns here.
Unfortunately seems like lots of people just don't get how dangerous guns really are.
Makes me realize why there are others at the other side of the spectrum that have a major fear of all guns.
Seeing some folks handle guns can make my skin crawl.
I'm not big on restrictions with gun ownership.
But practically anyone can buy one with zero training or experience.
It's an accident waiting to happen.
You don't just get keys to a car and go driving in public without training.

I pretty much only shoot by myself these days.
Only have two good friends, that practice the same gun safety as me,
that I will hand my unloaded gun to.

These days we don't need to call each other on gun safety.
But 20 years ago when we all started carrying? We did as we learned.
There's nothing wrong with that.
If your friend thinks there is? Then he's really no friend is he?

[Tilos]

I mostly shoot in the pits at my club now, once set up you own that pit, so no one's going to sweep me there.

At The Range

I take a "friend" who used to sweep me often when I took him along, and I told him so, yelling "RIGHT FACE".
Now when he goes, I stand to his right, so when he turns his gun, instead of his BODY, he no longer sweeps me.
Sometimes NOT shooting when taking someone new is the safest thing to do, so you can stand behind them and grab their shoulders when the start to do stupid stuff.

If I have to shoot at a firing line, I'll take the open port furthest to the right to lesson the number of idiots turning the gun down the firing line, instead of turning their body to keep the gun pointing down range.

At The Gun Store

I NEVER belly up to the counter:eek: and stay back of the "sweeping" line.

If I want to look at a handgun, I have a clerk take it out, and walk to the extreme RIGHT end of the counter before bellying up to take the gun from the clerk and leave all the "sweepers" to my left.

If I'm being swept in a store by someone close, I'll push the gun/muzzle away from me; if someones far away, I'll move.

That said, with my luck, I'll be swept/shot by a left handed idiot.
just sayin'

[chrish]

Folks new to firearms and/or new to range visits should print this thread and read it every day for 21 days. I pretty much practice Tilos' methods at any GS. The tough thing is pulling those practices off at a show. Virtually impossible and pretty much don't go anymore. Too many idiots at gun shows.

I wouldn't hesitate calling someone down at the range. They can be pissed all they like, eventually it'll sink in hopefully. I am a member at a private range of <300 families, but I frequently pull up, evaluate the crowd, and make a u-turn. I find myself going on rainy and/or cold days when I can be safe all by my lonesome.

[Tilos]

At gun shows here, everything is zip tied.
I've been injured though...beef jerky.

[TheTman]

My friend has been in the Army, saw combat in Viet Nam, and should know the proper handling of a weapon. I bet he didn't sweep his rifle instructor. Maybe that's why he got so upset, maybe he thinks he knows everything cause he's been in combat. He sure likes to throw that in my face how much calmer he'd be in a SD situation since he's had people shoot at him before, and I'm just a no nothing civilian. I was a Young Hunter Safety Instructor and had the safety rules firmly implanted, yet I still slip once in awhile and let my finger wander into the trigger guard. Or cover myself when I hand a gun to someone after I've safety checked it. We do go to the range and I'm going to have to keep a better eye on him if I go with him again, not sure I want to now. I just couldn't believe the level of anger I generated over a safety infraction. They guy's a hot head and kind of a jerk sometimes, I watched him screw up his girlfriends motorcycle cause he was trying to put a course thread bold in a fine thread hole in the frame I know cause I had the same type of bike, but tools were flying and it was his girlfriends bike and HE was going to fix it and not listen to any advice. I just kept my mouth shut and didn't offer any advice as I'm sure it would have been met with hostility. I think he might have already been angry at me cause I gave him a TV he couldn't get to work, we ended up buying a VCR at the DAV for $15 and using the tuner from that to get it working just fine.
He said I was being short and bossy with him, and I really don't think I was, although I was tired and maybe I was but didn't mean to be. I thought I said something like the clerks don't really like people pointing guns at them was all and then he acted flustered like there was no place to aim the gun except at the clerk. The store was crowded, but when I looked at the guns, I either pointed them up away from everyone or down at the floor, no problem at all. I'll probably go shooting with him again just to make sure he's not covering the other lanes with his pistol, and piss him off again when I tell him about it if he is. I don't know maybe I shouldn't hang out with poeple that one of their favorite lines is I should have whipped his ass.
Usually he's a pretty decent guy, but when that hot head stubborn streak shows up he's not so easy to deal with. Don't know how many times I've heard him say I should have whipped his ass.
Maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea to have people go through a safety class before being eligible to buy weapons, but then again, there goes another freedom.

[chrish]

@Tilos ...most if not all are zipped at shows here (VA) also. not sure if it's a law, rule, or just precaution. But me thinks it's loosely monitored. More frequently w/ rifles and shotguns, but even handguns. Either way, zipped or not, safety practices are good to enforce. If you get used to doing it with a zipped up gun, you might shoot your big toe off at home.

@thetmanski ...you might need a new friend with a more even keeled temper. it sounds like it could get you both in trouble. guns involved or not. just sayin'.

[knkali]

I went to Gander Mountain today with a friend to look at some 1911's. My friend kept looking at different guns and sweeping the muzzle across the clerks chest. I mentioned to him that it was pretty rude to point a gun at someone, even the clerk who just made sure the gun was unloaded, the only person that heard was my friend and the clerk, and I asked the clerk if he got tired of guns being pointed at him all the time? And he said sure, but it kind of comes with the job. Then my friend mentioned something to the clerk about buying the same gun on the internet and saving some money, and I whispered to him that's not very cool to come in and waste a clerks time then tell him you're going to buy the gun on the internet. Anyway when we got outside, my friend said he really wanted to kick my ass for embarrassing him in front of the salesman. He said the store was so crowded that he couldn't find a place to check out the sights without the barrel covering someone, and I suggested using the floor, the walls above everyone's head, or the ceiling or someplace other than at the clerk. He said well I've seen you do the same thing, and I said yes, sometimes I do cover a person with the muzzle while handing it to then after I've safety checked it, and I want him to say something when he catches me doing something like that, I never do it intenionally. I sure never mind being corrected. After all if he were to do that in a competition he'd could get a warning or be disqualified and he is wanting to get into competition, so I thought I was being helpful. I told him also to let me know if my finger slips into the trigger guard and call me out on that too (that's my big weakness). I had no problem keeping the guns pointed in a safe direction while checking out the sights and trigger pull and stuff. This guy is kind of new to buying guns in a shop, so I thought I was being helpful, but he said I came across as being kind of short and bossy, and I didn't mean to, just trying to offer some good advice. I always try and avoid sweeping the muzzle across the salesman or anyone else for that matter, no matter what condition the gun is in, slide open, closed, or with the cylinder open or closed. I might add this same fellow shot a hole through his wall last week after thinking he had unloaded it, he racked the slide THEN dropped the mag and pulled the trigger and boom.
Do you all think I should I have just shut up and let him do his thing, or should I have spoken up like I did and mention that he was being rude, and acting like he's never handled a gun in a store before?
I just figured with him being kind of a newbie to gun buying in stores (he buys most his guns 2nd hand), he would appreciate the advice, but I guess I really pissed him off.. We talked it over afterwards and made peace, but it still bothers me that I pissed off my friend that badly over common gun handling. Gun safety is very important to me, and I don't mind being corrected if I do something rude or dangerous, and I figured most people don't mind being corrected in what I thought was polite way. I was a bit tired so maybe I was short and bossy, but that was totally unintentional.
The guy wanted me to come and give him my advice on which 1911 to buy, So I didn't figure he'd care if I made a couple suggestions on his gun etiquette. I know people point guns at salesmen all the time, but I try and not do that, I think it's very rude and a sign of someone who doesn't know what they are doing, and apologise to the salesperson if I accidently cover him with the muzzle.

Get a new friend. He sounds like an a hole and the life you may save could be your own.

[Tilos]

The way I feel about it, a Richard Cranium (D*ck Head) will never know the help/advise I decided NOT to give him because of his actions.

They will never understand it, why their life is full of screwups, because no one ever helps them.

And if I take a "guest" to MY range, MY membership is on the line and they better listen to ME and not be critical of my perceived tone.

That guy in my earlier post dosen't shoot at MY club anymore, after ripping off 30 rounds of rapid fire, in front of the RO:eek:...and he was my boss:001_huh: not anymore though.

Given enough time, a Richard Cranium will screw over you, if you continue to spend time with him.
Tilos

[EZ Land]

Been there as well... Only it was a customer who had been invited on a company deer lease. Of course, there was plenty of drinking and card playing the night before. And, Just about every swinging **** was lying and bragging about how great a hunter they were. The next morning, I'm picking up hunters from their stands, and I flat out had to tell this one guy to please open the bolt of his custom Browning A-Bolt, with his name engraved in the action, no less. Needless to say, he wasn't real thrilled about it, but he dang sure did it. We had 4 or five guys piling into an old suburban, and I was gonna make sure all these rifles were unloaded. I really didn't care, I had seen these guys the night before, and I wasn't about to take any chances. Call me uptight or whatever, but safety comes first over bravado....

[Thunder71]

I've had more gun shop employees do this to me than anyone else.

That said, you knew the gun was clear, maybe waiting until you left the store would have been a better way to handle it.

Sent using Tapatalk on Android

[TheTman]

I wish things were that simple that I could just walk away from him, but I agreed to sponsor him in a program for recovering alcoholics/substance abusers.
And he needs the help big time. His biggest problem is his stubborness and his wanting to resort to violence to "fix" a situation. "I'm gonna whip his ass" or "he needs an ass whupping" comes out of his mouth way to often and I'm trying to help him and show him how to live a non violent life and that violence is the very last resort.
I'm a very non-violent person, and try to teach by example. Being a small skinny guy, I've never enjoyed the ability to whup ass and do as I please.
Like many Nam vets, he came home pretty screwed up from the war, both mentally and with substance abuse. After he got out of the Army he led a rowdy life full of fights and nonsense, until he finally realized how out of control he was and sought help and got around to asking me to help him turn things around.
He generally makes good progress, but reverts back to his old self way too often. He's a good guy at heart, he just doesn't handle some things well, like constructive criticism and things.
That was the first time he's ever turned on me like that, and I hope it's the last, or I will be done with him. What makes things worse is he is on strong narcotics to help him deal with some injuries he's received over the years, and of course that doesn't mix well with guns, so I'm extra careful around him when we do go shooting, like I try not shooting when he is and just load mags or something while keeping an eye on him while he shoots.
I can usually slip the safe gun handling in as part of my couching, I am a much better shot so he will listen when I couch. He wants to apply for his CC permit, but as his sponsor I'm able to tell him he's not ready for the responsibility and until he gets his temper under control that would just be asking for trouble.
Maybe if he at least cuts down on his pain medicine if not get off of it (which I doubt he can do and function very well), and gets his anger under control we'll talk about it again. I don't know how many sponsors he's been through, but sooner or later something like this will come up and they will tell him to seek help elsewhere, usually because he is about ready to start a fight. I suppose I'm being stubborn, but I've seen the good in the guy, as well as the bad, and I just need to try and teach him that just because you're angry at someone, you don't go smacking them around cause you're a bad ass guy and used to intimidating people.
He reminds me of another friend, also in chronic pain and on powerful medicines, that is way too ready to get violent, instead of reasoning a situation out. That guy does have a cc permit, and carries a short barrel 1911, which scares the hell out of me. At least he keeps the chamber empty and doesn't go around cokced and locked. I don't know, maybe it was their upbringing as both of them are big ole southern redneck type of guys that fought a lot, and are used to getting their way because they can beat up anyone that objects. The 2nd guy was an old biker buddy that broke his back and neck and used to be a really helpful guy, and was a firemen until he fell through a roof and broke his back, and an EMS technician, and helped a lot of people and saved some lives. But now spends most of the time on the pity pot whining about not being able to do the things he used to do. He was able to get his CC permit because he was not an "unlawful" user of the meds he is on. This guy had better be damn careful as one good blow to his jaw and he'll either die or be paralyzed for life. Sometimes I think that's what he wants is someone to jack him in the jaw and put him out of his misery. I guess I'm stubborn or feel sorry for both these guys, as most of their friends don't come around much anymore cause no one wants to deal with them and their sometime bizarre behaviour. It's easy to say just walk away, but not so easy to do sometimes. Sorry for the book, but it's hard to say what I want too in just a few sentences.

[Tinman507]

Tom,

You're a good guy for becoming involved in these men's lives. Keep doing what you're doing. Lots of latent anger in both of them. Keep doing what you're doing. Always do the right thing in regards to safety. Let the chips fall where they may. If he gets pissed, he gets pissed but let him know the rules and your standards remain.
God Bless you for being there.

[TheTman]

You have a point Thunder, perhaps I should have waited until after he left the store, but after seeing him sweep the clerk about 20 times my mouth overloaded my brain.

[TheTman]

Thanks for the nice words Tinman, I just try and do what I think is the right thing to do. I try and picture myself in these guys shoes, and do what I can to help. Mostly just being there to listen to them get things off their chest is the best thing I can do.

[Tilos]

Tom:

I think people who have no social skills are very sensative and turn most conflict situations into fight or flight, with fight being the first choice, and self medicating (usually alcohol) is just another crutch for them.
And most, never act on their threats, just talk about what they should have done, after the fact.
Their anger is usually directed at someone "safe" and that someone will be YOU, and the reason others have abandoned them.
Being compassionate, doesn't cut it, and as you have seen, YOU will be the target of the rage.

I've tried what you are doing and have come to realize I don't have the skills needed for what can be better done by professionals.

And please hit the enter key, once in a while, so your long posts can be read with these older eyes:o
Sorry, just the way I see it...
Tilos