9mm Defense Ammo

[NEO Hunter]

Looking for some recommendations for defense ammo for my CM9?

[Thunder71]

Federal HST
Winchester PDX1
Winchester Ranger


Sent using Tapatalk on Android

[SDGlock23]

I'm a fan of:

Federal HST's
Winchester Ranger T-series
Gold Dots
Golden Sabres

Fired some through my CM9 recently, all shot well, particularly the 124 +P Gold Dot, 115 +P+ Gold Dot and the 115 +P+ Federal 9BPLE.

[chrish]

+1 on the PDX1, either the +P 124gr or the standard load 147gr. I prefer the 147, mostly b/c the +P I find no fun to shoot...to much snap.

[jbwk254]

I've only used pdx1, it feeds great so I see no reason to switch it up.

[jimbar]

Hornady Critical Defense, or Hornady TAP FPD

[Knight92]

I use and like Hornady Critical Defense. Other ammo I would use would be the Federal HST, and the Ranger T's. I don't like the +p, since I don't practice with I don't want to shoot it.

[Deano]

Be sure to test fire the fatter rounds like the gold dots and Federal HST rounds. On my CM9 I've ground a good bit off of the slide stop, and these two particular rounds (124 grain) still barely skim by the stop on the way into the chamber.

[muggsy]

Speer 124 gr. Gold Dots.

[PYROhafe]

Anyone tried the guard dog home defense? Its a fmjhp. Seems like it would be better against clothing n such cause the hp won't clog....

[carkarrier]

IF YOU LIKE A HOT LOAD,GEORGIA ARMS has a124 gr.
Bonded core at 1200fps. Speer HP. and is a decent price .I also like Critical Defense and Federal Hydra Shock.

[Rubb]

Guard Dog doesn’t look real good.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF&feature=plcp

[littlebear]

thanks for asking this question and thanks for the responses so far.... I am following along

[chrish]

Anyone tried the guard dog home defense? Its a fmjhp. Seems like it would be better against clothing n such cause the hp won't clog....


Guard Dog doesn’t look real good.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF&feature=plcp

Was going to post the same link. I think unless you are SUPER SUPER concerned about over penetration of walls, I'd steer clear. Tests don't look too hot. Still, wouldn't want to be on the receiving end to test it in a real world situtation, it's still lethal :)

[redbeardmcg]

Run a few google queries on expension testing for each round in question. I had a local FFL suggest Magtech Guardian Gold 115gr+P and was less than happy with the round-to-round consistency of them. After watching numerous expansion tests in which the jacket separated and the core fragmented almost 100% of the time I decided to switch.

Expansion and penetration tests on the Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124gr+P on the other hand: can't seem to find anyone who will speak poorly of them.

[skiumah]

I use some Hornady TAP FPD and have never had a feed issue with them in my Kahr.

[Jeff00042]

Hornady TAP FPD is super accurate with no failures in my PM9.

[AIRret]

I use federal HST. I've never had a feed problem and HST is what our local police use.

[almalave]

I use Critical Defense with no problems at all. Shot a couple of mags with +P HST without a hiccup but noticeable recoil increase. I'll stick with the Critical Defense though.

[PYROhafe]

Ok, call me a noob, but isnt 8 inches of penetration (guard dog) pretty decent considering 8 inches into a BG would hit vital stuff right? I mean you lose the "cutting edges" but you dont run the risk of a clogged hollow point injuring someone else right?

[Mike_B]

Ok, call me a noob, but isnt 8 inches of penetration (guard dog) pretty decent considering 8 inches into a BG would hit vital stuff right? I mean you lose the "cutting edges" but you dont run the risk of a clogged hollow point injuring someone else right?

Hmm. I was just getting ready to go out and get something to replace the Guard Dogs in my Sig.....:confused:

[G8RDave]

I like the way Ranger T 147 and HST 147 run through my CM9. Also, both have shown excellent expansion and penetration in a multitude of tests. They can be hard to find though.

[apheod]

personally i shoot 124 +p gold dots. there's a local reloader, RAM ammunition who loads up gold dots and sells boxes of 50 for 18 bucks at the gun shows, so it's cheap enough i can afford to train with it. i know, gun show ammo for defensive purposes is iffy... but when you can afford to shoot (and do) thousands of rounds of it, you get to trust it. i've never had any issues with it after roughly 20k rounds.

the gold dots he sells aren't reloaded, he uses new brass for them and the same bullets as speer gold dots. he just packs them himself and sells them cheaper.

his reloaded stuff is 9 bucks for 50.

[GROTMAN]

Also using and recommend hornady critical defense.

[entoptics]

Ok, call me a noob, but isnt 8 inches of penetration (guard dog) pretty decent considering 8 inches into a BG would hit vital stuff right? I mean you lose the "cutting edges" but you dont run the risk of a clogged hollow point injuring someone else right?

NOOOB!!!!!

Just kidding. It's a reasonable question.

8" of penetration for a face to face midsection hit, on a stationary target, without contacting any bones or other barriers will likely go into the vitals of a normal human.

It is unlikely the target will present themselves in such a manner. I'm a relatively skinny dude, and my chest is about 10" deep, 12" collarbone to sternum, and 15" side to side. Throw in a few ice creams and big macs, or perhaps weekly weightlifting, and that could go up 3 or 4 inches pretty easily.

In other words, if you consider the likely scenario of angled trajectories, bones, fat or muscular antagonists, heavy clothing, etc most "studies" suggest that about 12" of penetration is pretty good for most situations.

[jg rider]

Looking for some recommendations for defense ammo for my CM9?

Have you seen these test results I did a while back with PM9s and K9s?
John

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11851

[jg rider]

NOOOB!!!!!

Just kidding. It's a reasonable question.

8" of penetration for a face to face midsection hit, on a stationary target, without contacting any bones or other barriers will likely go into the vitals of a normal human.

It is unlikely the target will present themselves in such a manner. I'm a relatively skinny dude, and my chest is about 10" deep, 12" collarbone to sternum, and 15" side to side. Throw in a few ice creams and big macs, or perhaps weekly weightlifting, and that could go up 3 or 4 inches pretty easily.


In other words, if you consider the likely scenario of angled trajectories, bones, fat or muscular antagonists, heavy clothing, etc most "studies" suggest that about 12" of penetration is pretty good for most situations.

After the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami Dade county(look it up on Google) . The FBI went looking for a different caliber and certain criteria. One of them was penetration which was the most important to them. I seem to remember they wanted a minimum of 11" and a maximum of 18" penetration.
I did some wet pak test here and the penetration results aren't the true results, you need to use a formula that I forgot, to convert them to ballistic gelatin results that the FBI uses. I know that the true results of my tests are acceptable

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11851

[Indigo]

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/devito99/82839e53.jpg

Anyone try these? For $17.50 per 50 rounds I've stocked up quite a few. At 1300 fps they are sneaking up on .40 S&W without near the snap. Not that you should shoot them all day long but when it counts the numbers are there.

[MikeG]

Really, with modern bullet design any JHP that feeds and goes bang 100% of the time will do the trick. Pick one you like and run a couple of boxes through your particular gun to make sure they get along and you're gtg.

[HDoc]

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/devito99/82839e53.jpg

Anyone try these? For $17.50 per 50 rounds I've stocked up quite a few. At 1300 fps they are sneaking up on .40 S&W without near the snap. Not that you should shoot them all day long but when it counts the numbers are there.

Velocity is NOT effectiveness. .45 cal 230 grain have a fps of about 900 and no one doubts their effectiveness. These Federals are very light weight bullets. In general heavier bullets penetrate further, faster lighter bullets cause more cavitation, but can be deflected by density like a bone. My feeling is that 124 grain bullets are a nice compromise for 9mm although I like some of the 147 grain JHPs.

[littlebear]

so 147gr 9mm bullets dont snap/kick anymore than 124gr standard loads??? how do they compare ?

[Rubb]

so 147gr 9mm bullets dont snap/kick anymore than 124gr standard loads??? how do they compare ?

124+p and 147 grain Gold Dots have about the same recoil in a PM9…IMO

[jg rider]

so 147gr 9mm bullets dont snap/kick anymore than 124gr standard loads??? how do they compare ?

Look at my test results and pics. The standard Win RA9T 147 gr. is the mildest felt recoil of all I tested. With 100% expansion. Standard Fed.147 gr. HST was the second best. Then came the Fed. 124 HST. All the + p ammo I tested were too uncontrollable for quick double and triple taps. I tested Gold dots included.
The heavier the bullet the lighter the felt recoil

[Rubb]

Look at my test results and pics. The standard Win RA9T 147 gr. is the mildest felt recoil of all I tested. With 100% expansion. Standard Fed.147 gr. HST was the second best. Then came the Fed. 124 HST. All the + p ammo I tested were too uncontrollable for quick double and triple taps. I tested Gold dots included.
The heavier the bullet the lighter the felt recoil

Try a S&W 500 w/ 275 grain then again with 400 grain or a snubby 38 w/ 130 vs. 158...bet that won’t hold true.

[jg rider]

Try a S&W 500 w/ 275 grain then again with 400 grain or a snubby 38 w/ 130 vs. 158...bet that won’t hold true.

We"re talking 9mm out of a Kahr here . The recoil pulse is longer and softer with the heavier bullet it doesn't have the snap of the lighter faster bullet.

And no a 124+P and a standard 147 don't have the same recoil out of a Kahr

[DKD]

Sorry folks....I call BS....it is only preceived recoil cause no matter how you try you can't change the laws of physic's....similar caliber say for example purpose a 9mm in standard to standard factory or reloads, when you increase the mass of the slugs you have to increase recoil. Remember your high school or college physic's "equal and opposite reactions" thingy...?
When the mass of an object at rest is increased it takes more energy to move that object, which in turn generates the same force in the opposite direction.

Now let us complicate things, lets not forget that is a valid statement of fact when you are using the same pistol. If you change the weight of the weapon by increasing its weight, you will preceive less recoil, although the forces will be identical for any given weight bullet. Now class chew on thgat for a while...there will be a quiz on this in the morning. ;)

[HDoc]

Sorry folks....I call BS....it is only preceived recoil cause no matter how you try you can't change the laws of physic's....similar caliber say for example purpose a 9mm in standard to standard factory or reloads, when you increase the mass of the slugs you have to increase recoil. Remember your high school or college physic's "equal and opposite reactions" thingy...?
When the mass of an object at rest is increased it takes more energy to move that object, which in turn generates the same force in the opposite direction.
. ;)
Only if you are keeping velocity constant. The same charge will move a heavier bullet, only slower.

The general formula for the kinetic energy is
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/2/3/1/231cfd9416f4736f5ee8d102ee84cb22.png where
v is the velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity) of the bullet and m is the mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass) of the bullet.
My head is beginning to hurt.

[MikeG]

Sorry folks....I call BS....it is only preceived recoil cause no matter how you try you can't change the laws of physic's....similar caliber say for example purpose a 9mm in standard to standard factory or reloads, when you increase the mass of the slugs you have to increase recoil. Remember your high school or college physic's "equal and opposite reactions" thingy...?
When the mass of an object at rest is increased it takes more energy to move that object, which in turn generates the same force in the opposite direction.

Now let us complicate things, lets not forget that is a valid statement of fact when you are using the same pistol. If you change the weight of the weapon by increasing its weight, you will preceive less recoil, although the forces will be identical for any given weight bullet. Now class chew on thgat for a while...there will be a quiz on this in the morning. ;)

Might want to factor in velocity to those equations...124+p's are accelerated a good bit more than 147's are.

[Rubb]

We"re talking 9mm out of a Kahr here . The recoil pulse is longer and softer with the heavier bullet it doesn't have the snap of the lighter faster bullet.

And no a 124+P and a standard 147 don't have the same recoil out of a Kahr

What I outlined in red was what I perceived to be a pretty broad statement.
I understand you were talking 9mm….that’s why I said try the others...if you do...the statement in red won't hold true.

I didn’t say they had the same recoil... I said about the same “In My Opinion”
You're right they are not the same but... "about the same" on paper but.. do we give a crap about...paper?
5662

Calculator Here (http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp)
Gold Dot Details Here (http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx)


If you feel that much difference between 124+p and 147 gr. Gold Dots that’s fine..we’re allowed to perceive recoil differently...it’s all good.
Not trying to flame here...they just feel about the same to me...that's all.

[AIRret]

Amen!! And isn't speed the important thing.
Of course if you keep every thing else constant.
WHICH NEVER HAPPENS IS A REAL SHOOTING!!!!!

[jg rider]

What I outlined in red was what I perceived to be a pretty broad statement.
I understand you were talking 9mm….that’s why I said try the others...if you do...the statement in red won't hold true.

I didn’t say they had the same recoil... I said about the same “In My Opinion”
You're right they are not the same but... "about the same" on paper but.. do we give a crap about...paper?
5662

Calculator Here (http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp)
Gold Dot Details Here (http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx)


If you feel that much difference between 124+p and 147 gr. Gold Dots that’s fine..we’re allowed to perceive recoil differently...it’s all good.
Not trying to flame here...they just feel about the same to me...that's all.

I believe I stated that the 147gr. had less felt recoil, and I'll stick with that. I'm not a mathematician. I know what I and others know. The 147 gr. has a long slow push rather then the sharp felt recoil of the faster velocity lighter bullet.

My tests were done to find the most reliable defense round out of a K9 and a PM9. After that I was looking for the most controllable ones that would allow quick aimed follow up shots. I tested lots of stuff Fed HST standard & +P, Tactical. Win. RA9T, 127+P, Bonded, Black Talons. Rem. Golden Saber and Speer ? gr. +P. Just because that's what everyone back then thought was the cat's meow because the NYPD was using it. All the +P stuff was too uncontrollable for fast follow up shots, and besides the standard stuff did a more than adequate job.

The top performers were the heavier 147 gr. Win. RA9T and the Fed. HST. Out of 5 shot tests they had 100% expansion, the lightest felt recoil. The other thing is the heavier bullet have better penetration if bone or muscle are incountered

You should do a Google search and see what others are saying about heavy vs. light bullets

[MBFD]

I'm making the transition from new PM9 with 250 rds of range ammo to getting a reliable SD/CD round for CCW. I have had 0 problems with my PM9 and feel it's ready to CCW.
I called Kahr and they said to buy the HP with the roundest profile, with the seams inside for less loading problems. When I mentioned 124+P vice 147GR I didn't get an answer. They really don't want to give a manufacture name and round that works the best with the PM9.
I'm sure they know of a round that works the best (124+P or 147), doesn't need the slide stop shaved, has round profile etc and are not allowed to tell us.

[Raulf]

Hornady Critical Defense, for my CM9, it's my EDC.:D

[jocko]

HELL, KAHRS ARE NOT AMMO SENSITIVE, SO MOST ANY DEFENSE ROUND WILLBE PERFECT. iF B Y CHANCE U GET NE THAT ACTS UP,JUST GO TO ANOTHGER BRAND. I can see why ahr would not tell u one brand over another, as they test shoot all brands and what ight work in my PM9 just might not work in ur PM9, so the best way is test um out, find what works perfect and just stick with it..

[MBFD]

I went to Gander Mountain to buy 124 +P and 147 standard. Unfortunately they didn't have as large of a choice as I would have thought. I didn't care what brand, I just want to test the feel of the two rounds. I was hoping to find FMJ for the test (cheaper).

But they did have Speer Gold Dots. Plus the 124 +P says that it's for short barrel.
I think that this gives some credibility to the "with +P's not all the gun powder is used before leaving the barrel".
These rounds were NOT cheap - $28 for 20.
I will get back to this thread with my results. Which will be totally unscientific and more feel like!

[emopunker2004]

Anyone tried the guard dog home defense? Its a fmjhp. Seems like it would be better against clothing n such cause the hp won't clog....
Here's a review of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7f69skz9g&feature=plcp

The Hornady Critical Duty and Defense should not clog with clothing either due to the tip

[rmoody]

I currently carry Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P. I have tried Hornady Critical Defense and had an issue with one of my 7 round magazines (yes I know) with the round failing to feed on the third round out of the magazine. I was able to repeat this twice. The round's nose stuck on the feed ramp. I was able to tap the back of the slide and put the round into battery and fire the rest of the magazines without issue. Goes to show you that you need to test your carry ammo! I have since polished my feed ramp, so this may be a moot issue now.

I believe in any of the modern hollow point rounds that are available today, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, HST, RangerT, CDef, CDuty, etc. Any are a good choice. It matters more that the ammo functions properly in your weapon for you and that you can shoot it accurately. It also matters that you can afford the stuff. For instance CorBon is great ammo also, but it is so expensive I cannot afford to buy enough to test it in my weapon and therefor will not carry it.

[Barth]

Speer GDHP 9mm 124 gr +P
Federal HST 9mm 124 gr +P
Winchester Ranger T-Series 9mm 127 gr +P+

Take your pick.
They are all winners!

[gm412]

At the moment I use Federal Hydra-Shock since they aer easy for me to get at the local Walmart. I am one of the lucky ones as far as Wal Mart goes. Always some one there and always stocked with some ammo I need. Until I leave then they probably have no more 9mm or 380 left.

What do you guys think of Federal Hydra-Shock?

[Yogi 117]

Speer GDHP 9mm 124 gr +P
Federal HST 9mm 124 gr +P
Winchester Ranger T-Series 9mm 127 gr +P+

Take your pick.
They are all winners!
+1...I concur 100%. :)

[bandrich]

IMHO Hornady Critical Defense is the flavor of the day for me. :cool:

[WilliamG]

Speer +P 124gr, all the way. I've put over a hundred rounds of this down my PM9, and it feeds it flawlessly.

[Prowler]

I use Federal HST 124gr but my PM9 seems to love any of the SD ammo I feed it. Speer, Federal, Golden Saber, or Winchester it just keeps juggin along.

[r2dhart]

I use Federal 115 gr. +P+ (9BPLE) in my CM9. I know you're not supposed to use +P+ ammo in your gun but it feeds and extracts without fail and is exceptional accurate (the picture below was fired @ 30 ft. and yes I know I hung the shoot-n-c upside down). In addition I've heard from several sources that this ammo is really a +P loaded to the upper end of the SAAMI spec. Some will say that it is old technology and I agree with them but it was an effective man-stopper 20 years ago and I don't think the bad guys have developed an immunity to them in that amount of time. ;)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b145/russeldehart/2012-05-10_13-27-02_775.jpg

The only other round I've tested in my gun is Winchester 124gr. +P PDX1. It functioned fine but was not as accurate as the 9BPLE (YMMV) and the recoil was about the same. But it's more readily available in my area so if 9BPLE becomes difficult to get I would have no concerns about switching to this.

Other excellent choices that I have used in other guns are:
CorBon 115gr +P (Ballisticly very similar to the 9BPLE)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr. +P Short Barrel

Obviously whatever round you choose needs to be tested in your gun before you trust your life to it.

[muggsy]

Hmm. I was just getting ready to go out and get something to replace the Guard Dogs in my Sig.....:confused:

Eight inches of penetration in ballistic gel isn't enough. You want at least 12" of penetration in ballistic gel. The reason, ballistic gel has no bones.

[jocko]

quote: Eight inches of penetration in ballistic gel isn't enough.



I would not touch that sentence with a ten foot pole, no I take that back, a 20 ft pole: just sayin.

[dzldust]

any body using the 100gr +p powr ball?

[bapple]

I carry a mixture of Hornady Critical Defense (115gr), Winchester PXD1 124gr +p, and Hornady 124gr XTP (handloaded to +p spec with Blue Dot). All 3 feed fine in the Kahr and aren't overly snappy.

I think some of the best 9mm rounds...
Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p
Hornady Critical Duty 135gr (heavier than Critical D - more penetration)
Hornady XTP 124gr +p (I've seen consistent expansion in tests I've watched)
Federal Hydrashok 135gr (another mid-weight round)
Federal HST 147gr
Winchester Ranger T 127gr +p+

Then again, just my opinion from tests I've watched.

[itsthelaw]

If we assume that +p and +p+ takes a toll on your gun, and I shoot my defense load (and can afford to do it), what is the best round that is not +p or +p+?

[CarlCyrus]

Really, with modern bullet design any JHP that feeds and goes bang 100% of the time will do the trick. Pick one you like and run a couple of boxes through your particular gun to make sure they get along and you're gtg.

+1

Select the ammo that goes bang the first time and every time. Both my MK9 and PM9 love both 124 gr Speer GD and 124 gr Rem GS, so I have a lot of them on hand.

Carl

[jocko]

If we assume that +p and +p+ takes a toll on your gun, and I shoot my defense load (and can afford to do it), what is the best round that is not +p or +p+?

unless u have money out the ass,ur not gonna put alot of +P anything throuogh ur gun. Just doesnt seem to happen. cost is a factor as u well know.

IMO and little mind to, ur not gonna hurt any kahr with +P ammo, just ain't gonna happen. I have never read of it ever happening on a kahr or for that matter any ther gun maker who says +P is OK to shoot. As u well know +P+ really has no saami standards, so IMO not all +P+ can be considered the same by any means as there is just no standard to measure it, other than ur gun blowing up and you saying humm, "shouldn'thave shot that sh!t in this gun".

Would +P ammo take more toll down the road on a gun than lower pressured ammo" DUH dumb question. but i just don't think most of us will live long enough to see ur beloved good gun fall apart due to constant +P shooting. Just sayin.
We worry to much about this +P ammo. IMO

I don't shoot +P+ in my kahr BECAUSE KAHR says NO, most all gun owners say NO, so why push the envelope. any + ammo I would trust to shoot in my kahr until the cows come home. I just can't afford to use it for range fodder..:blah: