Shooting in Fla.

[jimbar]

http://myfox8.com/2012/03/20/us-justice-department-to-investigate-fatal-shooting-of-fla-teen/

This guy didn't help any of us who have CCW permits.
Fla is a state that allows you to "stand your ground", and defend yourself with deadly force, in public, but this event sounds a little fishy to me. Of course "the administration" is sending people from the Justice dept down to investigate, and not to be denied a chance to try and restrict gun ownership, the "Brady" bunch is going also. The Brady bunch is already attacking the NRA over this.
Oh, and of course, the "Reverend" Al Sharpton is going to get in front of as many cameras as possible to stir things up.
The police dept, so far, is saying the guy was within his rights, and no arrest is forthcoming. Let's hope Sharpton, and the Brady people dont force the local D.A. to change his mind.

[tilefish]

]http://myfox8.com/2012/03/20/us-justice-department-to-investigate-fatal-shooting-of-fla-teen/[/URL]

This guy didn't help any of us who have CCW permits.
Fla is a state that allows you to "stand your ground", and defend yourself with deadly force, in public, but this event sounds a little fishy to me. Of course "the administration" is sending people from the Justice dept down to investigate, and not to be denied a chance to try and restrict gun ownership, the "Brady" bunch is going also. The Brady bunch is already attacking the NRA over this.
Oh, and of course, the "Reverend" Al Sharpton is going to get in front of as many cameras as possible to stir things up.
The police dept, so far, is saying the guy was within his rights, and no arrest is forthcoming. Let's hope Sharpton, and the Brady people dont force the local D.A. to change his mind.

You speak the truth. I have not been following the story closely, I actually cringe when I hear it brought up on the headlines. I keep hoping that another side to the story comes to light..One that doesn't look so bad. First, someone being shot for no reason is unacceptable, letting an unjustified shooting slide is unacceptable and of course the antis need no more ammo. I keep thinking that the police are not saying something because based on the media account, it sounds real sketchy.

[chrish]

Agreed. This sounds a little off. If the truth comes out that the shooter chased the shooting victim down after being told by dispatch NOT TO CHASE THE GUY DOWN...then it's gonna get ugly.

Gun rights folks need to steer clear of this until the smoke settles or they might look pretty stupid. If it turns out as fishy as it sounds, gun rights folks need to dump the shooter and run as far away from it as possible.

[MERCTECH]

Its getting bad now that they released the 911 calls. They also said he had called 911 like 10 seperate times about people walking in the neighborhood. They are calling him a vigilante. Not good for us.

[muggsy]

From the article it doesn't sound as though we have all of the facts. The left is very good at withholding information that doesn't support their anti-gun position. They have already played the race card.

[JFootin]

That self appointed community watchDOG was already a loose cannon. Made dozens of unnecessary 911 calls. Disobeyed, followed and provoked an unjustified confrontation with an innocent young man. I think this guy was looking for an opportunity to shoot and kill someone. I 100% think he should be arrested and charged with murder!

[lowroad]

From the article it doesn't sound as though we have all of the facts. The left is very good at withholding information that doesn't support their anti-gun position. They have already played the race card.
It's got nothing to do with left or right. This ******** chased down an unarmed 17 year old kid and shot him dead in the street after being specifically told not to chase after the "suspect" by police dispatch. You shoot only when there is no choice in order to protect your life. You don't chase down anyone, ever.

[hsart]

CNN reported last night that the shooter had blood on head and face. They stressed that it was unconfirmed though. It would be great to get all the facts. I'm surprised that the shooter was not arrested pending investigation.

[carkarrier]

Let's wait on autopsy before condemning.Maybe the shot was only a few inches away indicating Zimmerman was attacked and shot in self defense. He should have listened to police and not confronted alleged perp. Wasn't this a gated community and he was not a resident. Zimmerman did have blood and grass on his back according to reports. Just my thoughts.

[JFootin]

Let's wait on autopsy before condemning.Maybe the shot was only a few inches away indicating Zimmerman was attacked and shot in self defense. He should have listened to police and not confronted alleged perp. Wasn't this a gated community and he was not a resident. Zimmerman did have blood and grass on his back according to reports. Just my thoughts.

But what was he doing following and confronting the boy in the first place? The boy was coming home from the store, not comitting any crime. I think the man saw the color of his skin and concluded he was a criminal up to no good. The shooter is the real criminal. Made himself out to be an unofficial neigborhood watcher as an excuse for committing armed violence.

[lowroad]

Let's wait on autopsy before condemning.Maybe the shot was only a few inches away indicating Zimmerman was attacked and shot in self defense. He should have listened to police and not confronted alleged perp. Wasn't this a gated community and he was not a resident. Zimmerman did have blood and grass on his back according to reports. Just my thoughts.
hahaha, wait on what? You don't chase people around the neighborhood with a gun. Once they are out of your house, you're done, and this kid was never IN the house. Trespassing isn't a crime punishable by firing squad, as far as I know. Not even here in New Mexico.

[AJBert]

I'll just add that the NRA and all of the gun rights folks should, providing the evidence is there that this guy was WAY in the wrong, condemn what he did. Remaining silent only adds to the anti's voice. Way too early to know what happened, never trust the media to give you the new, only their spin on what actually happened.

[muggsy]

But what was he doing following and confronting the boy in the first place? The boy was coming home from the store, not comitting any crime. I think the man saw the color of his skin and concluded he was a criminal up to no good. The shooter is the real criminal. Made himself out to be an unofficial neigborhood watcher as an excuse for committing armed violence.

That's conjecture, J. I think that we should deal in facts and set emotion aside. Eventually all of the facts will come out. If the individual in question is found guilty of a crime he will be punished to the full extent of the law. He is supposed to be presumed innocent until he's found guilty in a court of law, not in a court of public opinion.

[JFootin]

That's conjecture, J. I think that we should deal in facts and set emotion aside. Eventually all of the facts will come out. If the individual in question is found guilty of a crime he will be punished to the full extent of the law. He is supposed to be presumed innocent until he's found guilty in a court of law, not in a court of public opinion.

Well, Muggsy, the trouble is that the authorities responsible for finding the truth and seeking justice, the police and prosecutors, have closed the case and declared it a matter of self defense. That is the reason for the uproar, their refusal to look deep enough, put it before a grand jury and see what happens.

[jimbar]

On my orig post, I said I hope the D.A. didn't change his/her mind based on the protest, local and nat'l. I back off of that now. I know most news reports that are first reported are often full of inaccuracies, but it sure seems the self appointed security guard screwed up.
All of us who carry legally should be aware of our states laws concerning what actions are allowed. I double checked, and verified my state does have the "castle domain" law in place. If yours doesn't, you could be in big trouble if you ever have to fire your weapon.

[muggsy]

Well, Muggsy, the trouble is that the authorities responsible for finding the truth and seeking justice, the police and prosecutors, have closed the case and declared it a matter of self defense. That is the reason for the uproar, their refusal to look deep enough, put it before a grand jury and see what happens.

What makes you think that the authorities didn't look close enough to determine that this was a case of self defense? This man wasn't a vigilante, or self appointed. He was the captain of his neighborhood watch. The fact that the kid was seventeen means nothing. A seventeen year old killed four of his classmates here in Chardon, Ohio not long ago. Excuse me, but I have a tendency to believe the judgement of the trained police investigators over those of Reverend Sharpton, but I have to admit that you have the ACLU and The Daily Kos on your side of this issue.

[CJB]

Couple of things.

First - its Florida law, which does enable the use of force when a perceived threat is encountered. The key word there is perceived - even if the threat is not real, if there is reason to believe it is real at the time, force, even deadly force, can be used.

Second - The PD will always say, no, don't follow, do not approach, etc etc. You could see a rape going on, and they'd say dont intervene. Its what they do.

Third - Inside or outside the home has no bearing in the eyes of Florida law, with the exception that inside the home, it is assumed the BG is there to harm you, so presence of the BG is cause enough to use force, even deadly force.

No 4. - Florida law, when cases of justifiable defense are upheld, prohibits other legal action in civil court.

No 5 - You can bet your bottom dollar if the kid was white, or the shooter black, there would be no "Federal Investigation". They will need to prove that the shooting was racially motivated, very hard to do. The presence of a black individual at odd times in an all white gated community IS reason for suspicion. That is, the black individual would not normally be expected. That's not profiling, but a conclusion based on the demographic facts - with which the shooter was familiar as his position as Captain of the Neighborhood Watch.

No. 6 - few other facts are coming to the surface. There is a reason the PD and DA didn't go forward. The reasons are unstated, other than a hard case to prove, but why?

Folks - as egregious as it may seem, the way the VERY LIBERAL Orlando paper has "reported" the story, its pretty damn clear that there is a lot more to it than what's being told. The PD is rightfully being close lipped. Why? They say anything after not charging the shooter, and the kids family can come after the PD. All PD's are watching their public statements after the Richard Jewell incident. We no longer have suspects, just persons of interest. We no longer have "seemingly" innocent dead kids with bad history. Instead, we have a shooting that the PD declines to prosecute, and about which they are careful and frugal with their words and information.

[Deano]

Neighborhood watchdog or not, it clearly seems as though this whole thing could have been avoided with an ounce of good judgement on the shooter's part. What would have been wrong with simply following the "BG" until he was out of the neighborhood? Did he really need to confront the kid.

I am about to receive my CHL here in Orygun, and I already feel the weight of responsibility mounting on my shoulders. My CCW will be used only as a last resort. It is incumbent upon us to use good judgement and avoid circumstances that may result in the loss of life for no apparent good reason.

Yes, he may have shot in self defense. Probably only he knows for sure. But it does appear that he was the one looking for trouble, not the kid. I do mourn this tragic loss of life, if indeed as I suspect, the kid was just on his way home from the store. The contents of his pockets suggest that this was the case.

I hope this re-enforces the importance of making wise choices as we carry around lethal weapons. I truly hope I am never forced to draw my gun, let alone fire it at someone. I will if the situation calls for it, but I sure as h@ll won't go looking for one.

As for Sharpton and the other vultures always looking for face time with the cameras rolling. Shame on you. Your presence serves no purpose other than to stir the poop. Vulgar and annoying IMO.

[muggsy]

Neighborhood watchdog or not, it clearly seems as though this whole thing could have been avoided with an ounce of good judgement on the shooter's part. What would have been wrong with simply following the "BG" until he was out of the neighborhood? Did he really need to confront the kid.

I am about to receive my CHL here in Orygun, and I already feel the weight of responsibility mounting on my shoulders. My CCW will be used only as a last resort. It is incumbent upon us to use good judgement and avoid circumstances that may result in the loss of life for no apparent good reason.

Yes, he may have shot in self defense. Probably only he knows for sure. But it does appear that he was the one looking for trouble, not the kid. I do mourn this tragic loss of life, if indeed as I suspect, the kid was just on his way home from the store. The contents of his pockets suggest that this was the case.

I hope this re-enforces the importance of making wise choices as we carry around lethal weapons. I truly hope I am never forced to draw my gun, let alone fire it at someone. I will if the situation calls for it, but I sure as h@ll won't go looking for one.

As for Sharpton and the other vultures always looking for face time with the cameras rolling. Shame on you. Your presence serves no purpose other than to stir the poop. Vulgar and annoying IMO.

If you "feel the weight of responsibility mounting on your shoulders" perhaps you shouldn't be carrying a gun. I can assure you that the criminal won't hesitate to use his gun on you. If you hesitate you won't be carrying for long. Survival is a mind set. It's Sharpton and the ACLU who are looking to, "stir the poop" IMO.

[muggsy]

I think that this incident should be investigated by the DOJ. You know, the DOJ that's headed by Eric Holder. The same Eric Holder who sees nothing wrong with two Black Panthers with clubs standing out in front of a polling place, but who objects to Texas requiring a voter to have photo ID to vote. That should place this incident into perspective.

[Popeye]

From what I've heard this Zimmerman was a real nut job calling 911 for so little as kids playing in the street. According to what was reported he called 911 46 times in a 12 month period over some pretty stupid insignificant things. Then this morning I heard on the news the kid was actually on the phone with his girlfriend at the time. I think this Zimmerman dude has Wyatt Erp syndrome and was an accident looking for a place to happen,and it finally did. At least that 's the way it looks to me at the moment. Time will tell.

[Deano]

If you "feel the weight of responsibility mounting on your shoulders" perhaps you shouldn't be carrying a gun. I can assure you that the criminal won't hesitate to use his gun on you. If you hesitate you won't be carrying for long. Survival is a mind set. It's Sharpton and the ACLU who are looking to, "stir the poop" IMO.
If you don't feel any weight of responsibility, I'm SURE you shouldn't be carrying. I'm not saying I'd hesitate to shoot if need be. What I am saying is don't go poking your nose where you don't need to, looking for a fight.

[CJB]

What would have been wrong with simply following the "BG" until he was out of the neighborhood? Did he really need to confront the kid.

But it does appear that he was the one looking for trouble, not the kid

There are so many unreleased facts (and they are facts, not hearsay) that no statement such as yours can be valid. Not pickin' on you, just the statements, which others have voiced as well.

a. What would have been wrong with following the BG. We don't know what behavior the kid was exhibiting.

b. Did he really need to confront? Possibly, based on what the kid was doing, his behavior.

c. It appears the shooter was looking for trouble. How is that certain? In a way I think he may have been trying to avoid trouble. Let me state some alternate conjecture - not based on fact, but neither is anything else in this thread (other than a released shooter, and a dead kid).

Lets say our Watchgroup Captain saw a young man, clearly out of place in the gated (read that: restricted access) community. Lets also say, the kid was walking home from the store, took a shortcut, but was lingering, looking perhaps a little too closely at parked cars. Maybe the kid was just a car buff... its all conjecture. Watchgroup Captain sees that behavior, calls 911 - there was a reason he called after all. Kids behavior continues, and he is taking a path that seems logical for the kid (shortcut) but illogical for the Watchgroup Captain. Captain approaches kid, wants to speak with him a sec. Now, the kid - knowing he's done nothing except maybe tresspass (gated communities can be totally private in Florida, no access to the public whatsoever), and feeling a bit like "the man" is getting on his case for "doin' nuthin" (as I felt during teen years... even being white), he gives some lip to the Captain, which raises the Captains level of suspicion even further. Here's the crucial part - Captain says, maybe we should wait for the police. Kid does something, says something, acts a certain way, maybe gets on the Captains case with threats. Kid is now a statistic taking a dirt nap.

Captain had no way of knowing the kids intent, except by observation of the kids behavior, and his response when approached. Observation and approach are legal. The fact that he was advised to not approach is irrelevant, the Captain was on the scene, not the cops.

The kid could have said - I'm just cuttin' through, it looks like rain, I'm trying to get home. Or he could have given Captain a whole load of threatening grief. Or, the kid was on his way home, but scouting for a good car to knock off on his way home. None of that is said. Could be the kid had a whole list of priors, or associates with priors, and he was in fact doing a bit of scouting... on his way home.

Or maybe he was just on his way home.

How in the heck was the Captain to know - except by his observation, and the kids response?

(end of conjecture)

The cops let the shooter go. They knew there was gonna be hell to pay, white shooter, black dead kid. If they had one scintilla of reason to hold that shooter, they would have. They didn't hold him. Thats all.

[Deano]

There are so many unreleased facts (and they are facts, not hearsay) that no statement such as yours can be valid. Not pickin' on you, just the statements, which others have voiced as well.

a. What would have been wrong with following the BG. We don't know what behavior the kid was exhibiting.

b. Did he really need to confront? Possibly, based on what the kid was doing, his behavior.

c. It appears the shooter was looking for trouble. How is that certain? In a way I think he may have been trying to avoid trouble. Let me state some alternate conjecture - not based on fact, but neither is anything else in this thread (other than a released shooter, and a dead kid).

Lets say our Watchgroup Captain saw a young man, clearly out of place in the gated (read that: restricted access) community. Lets also say, the kid was walking home from the store, took a shortcut, but was lingering, looking perhaps a little too closely at parked cars. Maybe the kid was just a car buff... its all conjecture. Watchgroup Captain sees that behavior, calls 911 - there was a reason he called after all. Kids behavior continues, and he is taking a path that seems logical for the kid (shortcut) but illogical for the Watchgroup Captain. Captain approaches kid, wants to speak with him a sec. Now, the kid - knowing he's done nothing except maybe tresspass (gated communities can be totally private in Florida, no access to the public whatsoever), and feeling a bit like "the man" is getting on his case for "doin' nuthin" (as I felt during teen years... even being white), he gives some lip to the Captain, which raises the Captains level of suspicion even further. Here's the crucial part - Captain says, maybe we should wait for the police. Kid does something, says something, acts a certain way, maybe gets on the Captains case with threats. Kid is now a statistic taking a dirt nap.

Captain had no way of knowing the kids intent, except by observation of the kids behavior, and his response when approached. Observation and approach are legal. The fact that he was advised to not approach is irrelevant, the Captain was on the scene, not the cops.

The kid could have said - I'm just cuttin' through, it looks like rain, I'm trying to get home. Or he could have given Captain a whole load of threatening grief. Or, the kid was on his way home, but scouting for a good car to knock off on his way home. None of that is said. Could be the kid had a whole list of priors, or associates with priors, and he was in fact doing a bit of scouting... on his way home.

Or maybe he was just on his way home.

How in the heck was the Captain to know - except by his observation, and the kids response?

(end of conjecture)

The cops let the shooter go. They knew there was gonna be hell to pay, white shooter, black dead kid. If they had one scintilla of reason to hold that shooter, they would have. They didn't hold him. Thats all.
Latest reports I've heard are that the kid was walking home while talking on his cell phone to his girlfriend. I'm told the authorities have a recording of this cell phone conversation in which you can hear the gun go bang. It doesn't sound good.

I agree there is a lot of hearsay and speculation. Based on all of that I've heard, it don't sound good for our shooter on this one. Also heard the feds are now involved and sniffing around. Wonder if the sheriff is in for tough times ahead as well.

Caveat emptor: everything I have typed in this thread is based on hearsay and opinions formulated from that hearsay. In other words, it's worthless as anything other than fodder for a good argument. Hey, isn't that what forums are for????

[Longitude Zero]

My concern is NOT with Zimmerman. Frankly he is expendable if it keeps Stand your Ground unaltered.

[kgturner]

I don't think this has anything to do with Stand Your Ground. He got out of his car and pursued the child. There is no ground for him to stand on. He provoked the incident.

Kevin T

[MERCTECH]

The sanford city commission just voted no confidence in the police chief. Trying to make him resign because he wont arrest this guy. According to my Instructor if you are the one calling 911 first it makes you the victim. So until they prove other wise they cant do anything. It suppose to be up to the aggressor "not the one who called 911" to prove he wasnt in fear for his life . Im not condoning this guy in anyway but I think to give the sanford pd a break for knowing Florida gun laws. I mean if this guy had a license and he was a law abiding citizen he should get the benefit of the doubt. And let the justice system do its job. Once again Im not condoning this guys actions but happy its still innocent until proven guilty.

[CJB]

Talking on the phone with his gfriend, "recording of cell phone conversation with gun going bang"....

C'mon folks. They let him go. That would have been grounds to hold him, and the Feds would not be involved. The Fed's involvement is possible civil rights violation.

Exiting his vehicle... perhaps asking what the kid was doing where he was, essentially on private property (non public property belonging to the community association). Thats not pursuit. Those are reasonable actions for a person acting as a watchman.

[Longitude Zero]

I don't think this has anything to do with Stand Your Ground. He got out of his car and pursued the child. There is no ground for him to stand on. He provoked the incident.

Kevin T

True but many folks interviewed on the media including one of the legislators that got it passed is questioning whether it should stand.

The reality is it does not matter if SYG is in play or not, in this shooting if the citizens/legislators believe it is then IT IS IN PLAY. Aware folks need to realize that and plan/act accordingly.

[CJB]

Ya know the more I read on the George Zimmerman case, the more I see media bias. Who do they call in? A few known left leaning republican-in-name-only from Florida legislature. They bring in a law professor from a liberal university. They bring in "experts" from the Miami Herald?

Media misquotes and misrepresentation of the law. Legislators grandstanding - knowing full well what the law says, but stating otherwise instead.

Folks - if they had evidence to hold him, they would have held him.

Keep reading the news. Then say - who is being quoted, who is reporting it, whats their track record... do THEY have an agenda. Damn straight they do.

[Mr. S]

Exiting his vehicle... perhaps asking what the kid was doing where he was, essentially on private property (non public property belonging to the community association). Thats not pursuit. Those are reasonable actions for a person acting as a watchman.

He is a watchman he has no reason to stop people and confront them.

He was pursuing him that is a fact! He even said he was in the call to 911.
The 911 operator told him that he didn't need to be following him and he continued and then somehow found himself in a life threatening situation...

[TriggerMan]

What makes you think that the authorities didn't look close enough to determine that this was a case of self defense? This man wasn't a vigilante, or self appointed. He was the captain of his neighborhood watch. The fact that the kid was seventeen means nothing. A seventeen year old killed four of his classmates here in Chardon, Ohio not long ago. Excuse me, but I have a tendency to believe the judgement of the trained police investigators over those of Reverend Sharpton, but I have to admit that you have the ACLU and The Daily Kos on your side of this issue.Accounts I have read indicate there was no official Neighborhood Watch. Zimmerman was alone. He did have one buddy who joined him on his "watch" occasionally.

Zimmerman had to get an arrest for Battery on a Police Officer and Resisting Arrest expunged from his record to get his carry permit. Who does he know?

As I write this, the Chief of Police has been removed from his post immediately despite being four weeks from Retirement.

So far the police investigation can be criticized for using a Narc Investigator instead of a Homicide Investigator, for not taking Zimmerman to the station and reviewing the 911 tapes before questionng him. They also have not reached out to the girl who was on the phone with the teen right up to his death. The worst is that more than two days passed before the geniuses at SPD could identify the teen, despit having his cell phone in their custody.

[CJB]

He is a watchman he has no reason to stop people and confront them.

He was pursuing him that is a fact! He even said he was in the call to 911.
The 911 operator told him that he didn't need to be following him and he continued and then somehow found himself in a life threatening situation...

Since when do watchmen not ask folks what they're doing?

Keep in mind, there is no pursuit without someone fleeing. No flight, no pursuit. He was following, he was observing, he was being a watchman, doing what a watchman should do.

They even made a big deal about the relative size of the two individuals. No bearing whatsoever on the case or incident.

Try as everyone in the court of social-do-gooder-feel-gooder-john.q.public might, the law is the law, and we are a nation of laws... at least we're supposed to be, and not a nation of meely feely bleeding heart oooh-oooh feel good help me my frame is damaged when its only a bit of flashing twits.

[TriggerMan]

Talking on the phone with his gfriend, "recording of cell phone conversation with gun going bang"....

C'mon folks. They let him go. That would have been grounds to hold him, and the Feds would not be involved. The Fed's involvement is possible civil rights violation.

Exiting his vehicle... perhaps asking what the kid was doing where he was, essentially on private property (non public property belonging to the community association). Thats not pursuit. Those are reasonable actions for a person acting as a watchman.self appointed watchman for a non existant Neigborhood Watch...

[muggsy]

Accounts I have read indicate there was no official Neighborhood Watch. Zimmerman was alone. He did have one buddy who joined him on his "watch" occasionally.

Zimmerman had to get an arrest for Battery on a Police Officer and Resisting Arrest expunged from his record to get his carry permit. Who does he know?

As I write this, the Chief of Police has been removed from his post immediately despite being four weeks from Retirement.

So far the police investigation can be criticized for using a Narc Investigator instead of a Homicide Investigator, for not taking Zimmerman to the station and reviewing the 911 tapes before questionng him. They also have not reached out to the girl who was on the phone with the teen right up to his death. The worst is that more than two days passed before the geniuses at SPD could identify the teen, despit having his cell phone in their custody.

Post a link to that information.

[TriggerMan]

Post a link to that information.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

March 21, 2012 12:31 PM

Print (http://www.cbsnews.com/2102-504083_162-57401619.html)
Text
Author of "stand your ground" law: George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin

By Julia Dahl (http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-504083_162-504083.html?contributor=10470706) Topics Daily Blotter (http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-504083_162-504083.html?categoryId=10397)


(CBS/AP) SANFORD, Fla. - The authors of Florida's controversial "stand your ground" self-defense law say George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for shooting Trayvon Martin, reports the Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703579/state-senator-calls-for-hearings.html).
Photos: Trayvon Martin (http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10011681.html?tag=recommended;galleryLiRecommended )
"He has no protection under my law," former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.

Florida's law, called "stand your ground" by supporters and "shoot first" by critics, was passed in 2005 and permits residents to use deadly force if they "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Traditionally, self-defense laws did not typically extend beyond a person's home, but the Florida law, and at least 20 more passed across the country since them, allows a resident to "meet force with force" almost anywhere, including the street or a bar.

Zimmerman, 28, reportedly admitted to police that he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on the evening of February 26. He was released without being charged after claiming he killed the boy in self-defense. But 911 recordings released over the weekend suggest that Zimmerman, who has a concealed weapons permit and volunteered in an apparently informal neighborhood watch program, pursued Martin, despite being told police were on their way.

It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there."
Both co-sponsors told the newspaper, however, that they did not think the law needed to be re-examined.
"If you want to pass something, pass something that limits their ability to pursue and confront people," Baxley said. "It's about crime watch," he said. "What are the limitations of crime watch? Are you allowed to jump out and follow people and confront them? What do you think is going to happen? That's where it starts."

But during the town hall meeting in Sanford, Florida Rep. Geraldine Thompson promised the law's repeal would be a top priority for the state legislature's black caucus.

"If vigilante justice becomes the norm, will visitors feel comfortable coming to our state?," she asked

[muggsy]

If you don't feel any weight of responsibility, I'm SURE you shouldn't be carrying. I'm not saying I'd hesitate to shoot if need be. What I am saying is don't go poking your nose where you don't need to, looking for a fight.

Lets just suppose that you saw a woman being assaulted on the street. Would you just dial 911 and watch as the beating continued until the police arrived, or would you stick your nose in? Just askin'.

[TriggerMan]

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-protest-planned-to-repeal-zimmerman-gun-permit.php

Why did Zimmerman continue to pursue Martin when the police dispatcher pointedly told him not to? I think that question is answered in Zimmerman's background: a failed attempt at becoming a police officer and his pretty clear fixation with being a LEO (he proposed and was the first volunteer for the neighborhood watch.)
There's an irony here, too: Zimmerman was arrested for fighting with an undercover cop, but his record was expunged before the case went to trial when he agreed to attend what appear to be anger management classes. Had his case gone to trial, had justice been served, Zimmerman would have been ineligible for a carry permit.
And Trayvon Martin would have finished his Skittles.

http://the-reaction.blogspot.com/2012/03/justice-for-trayvon.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-21/trayvon-martin-police-chief-resignation/53694054/1


There are other more mainstream links as well. Use google

[muggsy]

The police have welcomed an independent investigation and still refuse to arrest Zimmerman on any charges. I listened to the 911 tape and it is apparent that a violent struggle was going between Zimmerman and the juvenile prior to a single gunshot being fired. The juvenile was stuck in the chest by a single bullet. The left wing liberal media is going after the "stand your ground" provision of the concealed carry law. I think that the liberal media is just using this kid as a cause celeb.

[jaydee]

Did anyone else notice that all the pictures of Trayvon looked like he was 13 years old. A cute, innocent, kid. What did he look like at 17?
jd

[tilefish]

I am still waiting for more. Something still doesn't seem right about this incident. The police are not that stupid, they knew there would be hell to pay. What are they not saying just yet? Why was he released/not charged? I'm sorry but the story the media is pushing simply doesn't wash. There is something missing.

[CJB]

***it is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law***

The Hon. Senator (retired) is a pillock, totally devoid of knowledge of the law. The statute is simple. The Hon. Senator is grandstanding looking to gain support for himself. The Hon. Senator was a Democrat, and liberal his whole life, until it was clear that he needed to join the Republican party in order to get elected. The Hon. Senator never gave up his liberal calling. About the same as Hon. Mayor Bloomburg in NYC

See... this is what I'm saying. ******* ex-politicians of questionable heritage, giving expert opinion that is utterly skewed.

I'll stick with the PD. I trust them about as far as I can toss the station house. Thats why - if they had a shred of evidence, and if the DA had a shred of evidence, the shooter would be locked up.

I've said all I'm gonna say. I've wasted my breath here discussing an item that needs no further discussion.

[LMT42]

...

So, by your way of thinking you can stalk someone in your vehicle, exit your vehicle and give chase, and when he or she feels threatened and punches your face, you can claim SD, pull your gun and kill him or her?? Genius! :rolleyes:

[CJB]

I'll break my own rule here.

What I think is - you can approach someone who is suspicious, and if that person gives you threats, you can defend yourself!!!

[Russ]

I hope the DOJ can keep politics out of their investigton. The timing is bad. Florida is a key swing state that could go blue or red and I just hope the DOJs motives are pure. Investigate looking for facts not votes.

Russ

[tilefish]

I hope the DOJ can keep politics out of their investigton. The timing is bad. Florida is a key swing state that could go blue or red and I just hope the DOJs motives are pure. Investigate looking for facts not votes.

Russ

Yup, this could turn ugly for Florida

[Deano]

Lets just suppose that you saw a woman being assaulted on the street. Would you just dial 911 and watch as the beating continued until the police arrived, or would you stick your nose in? Just askin'.That's a completely different scenario involving a person POSSIBLY committing a felony right before your eyes. Laws in different states are different regarding this situation. In my state, you are allowed to use force to stop the commission of a felony, but you better not shoot a robber in the back who is running from your house with your T.V.. Again, you have to be protecting someone.

Trayvon was walking home from the grocery store talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. That's not a crime in my book. I'm surprised you would compare the two scenarios.

If I saw something suspicious, I'd call 911, and do exactly what the person on the line told me to do. If I saw someone taking a beating, my first impulse would be to break it up, but I'd call 911 first. I'd also put my phone on speaker so everything that went down was recorded. Just being able to tell the person dishing out the beating that the police are on their way may be enough to send him fleeing the scene.

Your scenario brings all kinds of variables in that make it hard to respond to. For example, how do you know if the person getting the crap beat out of them is the good guy or the bad guy? I'm not going to play the "what if" game. My point was merely that people who carry lethal weapons need to use good judgement. If you or a loved one are not being threatened, I fail to see how drawing your weapon would ever be a good idea.

From the HEARSAY reports on this shooting, something smells fishy. I will be anxious to see what plays out, as I'm pretty sure this Zimmerman guy ain't off the hook just yet.

My prediction is eventual criminal charges, but that is pure speculation on my part. Stay tuned.

[tilefish]

That's a completely different scenario involving a person POSSIBLY committing a felony right before your eyes. Laws in different states are different regarding this situation. In my state, you are allowed to use force to stop the commission of a felony, but you better not shoot a robber in the back who is running from your house with your T.V.. Again, you have to be protecting someone.

Trayvon was walking home from the grocery store talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. That's not a crime in my book. I'm surprised you would compare the two scenarios.

If I saw something suspicious, I'd call 911, and do exactly what the person on the line told me to do. If I saw someone taking a beating, my first impulse would be to break it up, but I'd call 911 first. I'd also put my phone on speaker so everything that went down was recorded. Just being able to tell the person dishing out the beating that the police are on their way may be enough to send him fleeing the scene.

Your scenario brings all kinds of variables in that make it hard to respond to. For example, how do you know if the person getting the crap beat out of them is the good guy or the bad guy? I'm not going to play the "what if" game. My point was merely that people who carry lethal weapons need to use good judgement. If you or a loved one are not being threatened, I fail to see how drawing your weapon would ever be a good idea.

From the HEARSAY reports on this shooting, something smells fishy. I will be anxious to see what plays out, as I'm pretty sure this Zimmerman guy ain't off the hook just yet.

My prediction is eventual criminal charges, but that is pure speculation on my part. Stay tuned.

At least that's what we are being told. Who really knows though? There was some talk on another site about where Trayvon was going to/coming from. It may be a small detail and it may mean nothing but apparently this 7-11 was a rather long walk in the rain for some skittles and iced tea... seems there were many other stores a lot closer. I found this point to at least be interesting, especially considering it was a rainy night.

[Deano]

New timeline developing:
Zimmerman calls 911- recordings released and now available to hear on the internet. Zimmerman talks with officer who tells him not to follow Trayvon, that officers are on the way. Zimmerman's last comment: "These a-holes always get away".

Meanwhile phone records verify that approximately 5 minutes before the shooting, Trayvon's 16 year old girlfriend is talking to him on the phone and tells him to run. He reportedly says he won't run, but he's walking fast, trying to lose Zimmerman. He later tells her that he thinks he's lost him.

Then Zimmerman shows up again, this time on foot, and she hears Trayvon ask "Why are you following me?". She hears a scuffle and then the line goes dead. She tries to call back, but no answer.

Next a neighbor hears them behind the house and calls 911. While she is talking to the police, you can hear Trayvon screaming for help over and over. This goes on for maybe 30 seconds or so while she talks to 911 dispatch. Then you hear a gunshot, and the screaming stops.

Then another neighbor goes out back and sees Trayvon lying on the ground and asks Zimmerman 3 or 4 times what's going on. He flatly replies, "call the police".

Stand Your Ground/Self Defense? Not the conclusion I would draw from these accounts.

State attorney general has already set a date in April for the Grand Jury to convene, and hear testimony. I honestly think this Zimmerman is in deep sh**, and rightly so.

[ptoemmes]

I have not seen the actual Florida Statue posted yet, so here it is: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

The section that seems as if it applies here is:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

When a LEO is involved in a shooting he/she is (usually) placed on administrative leave until an internal investigation is completed.

I wonder if a similar kind of process needs to be implemented for situations such as this so that the on scene officer does not in effect make the no call as seems to be the case here.

It might be worthwhile to try to apply the FACTS that are known to the wording of the statute's section. Help me here.

1) Was Zimmerman's (neighborhood watch) lawful? Probably
2) Did Zimmerman have the right to be where he was? probably
3) Did Zimmerman's use of deadly force meet the reasonableness criteria? That's one of the million dollar Qs.

Not expressly in the statute...
4) What about being lawfully armed in this situation? I dunno, but no doubt one has to have a valid CCW to be carrying in in this or any situation. Apparently he did/does have a valid FL CCW.

I dunno how his alleged pursuit of Martin - if in fact he did - plays into this any more than his alleged ignoring the request of the dispatcher to not "follow". In part this is why I think all events such as this need a review of some sort similar to that afforded LEO's when they have to discharge their weapon and/or use deadly force.

I have strong visceral feelings about this even that I am suppressing here as I - and I believe the rest of us - wait for the non hyped facts to surface so I resist calling it like I feel it.

So, again, to be repetitive, I think these events need to be intensely and formally reviewed immediately after they happen. I do not think the user of deadly force necessarily needs to be arrested or detained unless the on scene officer deems it appropriate.

Pete

[knkali]

the media frenzy is so great with this case, I wonder how it will effect the trial. I promised on my thread I would hold any judgements until all the facts are presented. It hard to do. We need to hear every thing, 911 tapes, forensics, everything before judging. I think, given the coverage of the case, hearing it all will be easy. One thing for sure is that this case is causing CCW holders to discuss where they stand and what limits will they hold to before pulling on a guy. This is very important. It makes all ccw holders think by playing the what if game.

[Longitude Zero]

Lets just suppose that you saw a woman being assaulted on the street. Would you just dial 911 and watch as the beating continued until the police arrived, or would you stick your nose in? Just askin'.

I would probably just watch and report based upon primarily how the combatants were dressed. If it was a pimp vs ho fight then she is on her own and I might not even call 911.

As I have posted before the politics of this situation are going to trump reality and common sense. Most of what happens will hinge upon who is in charge of the federal civil rights investigation. Not the agency but the particular person. They will make all the difference.

For those of you who have never been near a federal civil rights investigation is is not the same as a local criminal investigation. There are specific written criteria to determine what happens. If you do not reach the threshold for the case to go to an indictment then it is over. The bar the family will have to hurdle to convince the authorities is much higher than you think. And since the Stand your Ground law is intertwined here...

[knkali]

I dont see fights too often but when I do it is usually two or more guys who are both of very questionable reputations and or there is usually alcohol envolved. Rarely is it a pillar of society against a thug. Therefore most fights are something I wouldnt get involved in. Call 911 and keep walking. The question is : how do I know they are of questionable reputation?

[muggsy]

I would probably just watch and report based upon primarily how the combatants were dressed. If it was a pomp vs ho fight then she is on her own and I might not even call 911.

As I have posted before the politics of this situation are going to trump reality and common sense. Most of what happens will hinge upon who is in charge of the federal civil rights investigation. Not the agency but the particular person. They will make all the difference.

For those of you who have never been near a federal civil rights investigation is is not the same as a local criminal investigation. There are specific written criteria to determine what happens. If you do not reach the threshold for the case to go to an indictment then it is over. The bar the family will have to hurdle to convince the authorities is much higher than you think. And since the Stand your Ground law is intertwined here...

You're a real piece of work. A knight in shining armor.

[Longitude Zero]

You're a real piece of work. A knight in shining armor.

For a ho, not hardly. They are on their own when I am off duty. Actually as a man educated in lawful use of deadly force, and a certified/recognized trainer in such, it is a common sense type thing. If you had ever had to make this kind of choice you would not be so quick to judge. The fact you did tells me you have NEVER been in this postion and thus are inexperienced in the reality of the situation. So sit and let me educate you.

I have been in this circumstance both on and off duty. On duty I step in. Off duty I do not. The vast majority of CCW's who have any intelligence will tell you stay out of a fight that does not directly concern you. Also you have no back up, you have no idea who might be friends of the couple, etc.

I hope you get the proper education on CCW and the correct way to react instead of an emotional/reactionary act of stupidity before you are the next news item. muggsy you re smarter than this, time to show it.

It is a matter of training and perspective. I have it...

[Longitude Zero]

I dont see fights too often but when I do it is usually two or more guys who are both of very questionable reputations and or there is usually alcohol envolved. Rarely is it a pillar of society against a thug. Therefore most fights are something I wouldnt get involved in. Call 911 and keep walking. The question is : how do I know they are of questionable reputation?

muggsy read, understand, and put knkali's advice into your holster. You know knkali by their mode of dress, attitude, how they carry themselves, etc. Bikers/Bangers/Thugs/Whores are generally pretty easily noticed because of their mode of dress, language, word choice etc. Stupidity comes out pretty quick. It is called profiling based upon factors than can be seen, heard. Any cop or citizen with common sense knows what I am talking about.

[knkali]

muggsy read, understand, and put knkali's advice into your holster. You know knkali by their mode of dress, attitude, how they carry themselves, etc. Bikers/Bangers/Thugs/Whores are generally pretty easily noticed because of their mode of dress, language, word choice etc. Stupidity comes out pretty quick. It is called profiling based upon factors than can be seen, heard. Any cop or citizen with common sense knows what I am talking about.


Didnt want to usr the "p" word

[Longitude Zero]

People who are afraid of the "P" word need to get over their fear. Humans profile everything all the time. NOBODY with 2 or more living brains cells can offer any dispute to this reality. It is NOT BAD but a necessary way of living.

knkali I am not battering you just others who unlike you and I see the world thru BS colored glasses.

[knkali]

People who are afraid of the "P" word need to get over their fear. Humans profile everything all the time. NOBODY with 2 or more living brains cells can offer any dispute to this reality. It is NOT BAD but a necessary way of living.

knkali I am not battering you just others who unlike you and I see the world thru BS colored glasses.

roger that

[Mr. S]

Since when do watchmen not ask folks what they're doing?

Keep in mind, there is no pursuit without someone fleeing. No flight, no pursuit. He was following, he was observing, he was being a watchman, doing what a watchman should do.

They even made a big deal about the relative size of the two individuals. No bearing whatsoever on the case or incident.

Try as everyone in the court of social-do-gooder-feel-gooder-john.q.public might, the law is the law, and we are a nation of laws... at least we're supposed to be, and not a nation of meely feely bleeding heart oooh-oooh feel good help me my frame is damaged when its only a bit of flashing twits.

Why would anyone feel the need to respond to a question asked by a watchman?
They have no authority that is why they call the police.
If he stops following the kid(like he was advised to do) and lets the police do their job the kid is still alive and his life is not a mess.
We may find out all the facts and that he truly is innocent but either way he is still an ididot!

[Patriot Prepper]

hahaha, wait on what? You don't chase people around the neighborhood with a gun. Once they are out of your house, you're done, and this kid was never IN the house. Trespassing isn't a crime punishable by firing squad, as far as I know. Not even here in New Mexico.

There is no evidence that he chased anyone around the neighborhood with a gun. It sounded like he was inquiring as to what the person was doing wondering and looking around the neighborhood in the rain. Then it sounds like there was a confrontation. Hardly a firing squad. You would do great on MSNBC with that type of opinion and rhetoric.

You have the legal right to "stand your ground" and to defend yourself outside the home.

I believe Zimmerman should have stayed in the car and not pursued the person. Standing your ground does not allow you to pursue. Unless you are in danger, you do not have the right to used deadly force. But you do have the right to question people in your neighborhood at night.

Before judging what happened it might be better to wait for all the evidence. In any event this is not good for CCW holders.

[kgturner]

But you do have the right to question people in your neighborhood at night.

Where do you live? You can ask anybody any question you want any time you want, but they have no responsible to answer your questions. Zimmerman was not a police man and had zero authority other than the authority he felt while carrying a gun as a self-appointed "captain".

He could've rolled down his window and asked Trayvon his questions, but chose to get out of his car and pursue him. Let's also not forget that Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by about 100 lbs. I mean, it's not like children aren't kidnapped, raped, and murdered every year in this country by pedophiles. Perhpas Trayvon felt in fear for his safety. Who knows?

Kevin T

[Patriot Prepper]

Where do you live? You can ask anybody any question you want any time you want, but they have no responsible to answer your questions. Zimmerman was not a police man and had zero authority other than the authority he felt while carrying a gun as a self-appointed "captain".

He could've rolled down his window and asked Trayvon his questions, but chose to get out of his car and pursue him. Let's also not forget that Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by about 100 lbs. I mean, it's not like children aren't kidnapped, raped, and murdered every year in this country by pedophiles. Perhpas Trayvon felt in fear for his safety. Who knows?

Kevin T

I live in Florida. I am stating that you have the right to ask questions, and that is not a violation of the law. Also people have the right to not answer.

I agree that Zimmerman should have stayed in the car and not pursued. It was a bad decision to leave the car.

Trayvon is not a child. It is difficult to judge age in the dark. But he was 17 - our military guys are in combat at age 18 - not much of a difference in age. Someone that age is a man, not a child, and unlikely to be fearful of rape, etc. as you stated.

The whole incident is a tragedy and should not have happened. There seems to be bad judgment on the part of both parties. That is why I stated that we need to know more details before passing judgment.

I also think the liberal media is loving this.

[popgoestheweasel]

That self appointed community watchDOG was already a loose cannon. Made dozens of unnecessary 911 calls. Disobeyed, followed and provoked an unjustified confrontation with an innocent young man. I think this guy was looking for an opportunity to shoot and kill someone. I 100% think he should be arrested and charged with murder!

Seems JFootin hit the nail on the head...7 pages ago.


But what was he doing following and confronting the boy in the first place? The boy was coming home from the store, not comitting any crime. I think the man saw the color of his skin and concluded he was a criminal up to no good. The shooter is the real criminal. Made himself out to be an unofficial neigborhood watcher as an excuse for committing armed violence.

Again, we have a BINGO, 7 pages ago.


I live in Florida. I am stating that you have the right to ask questions, and that is not a violation of the law. Also people have the right to not answer.

I agree that Zimmerman should have stayed in the car and not pursued. It was a bad decision to leave the car.

Trayvon is not a child. It is difficult to judge age in the dark. But he was 17 - our military guys are in combat at age 18 - not much of a difference in age. Someone that age is a man, not a child, and unlikely to be fearful of rape, etc. as you stated.

The whole incident is a tragedy and should not have happened. There seems to be bad judgment on the part of both parties. That is why I stated that we need to know more details before passing judgment.

I also think the liberal media is loving this.

Tragedy, yes! Never have happened, yes (again). Bad judgment on the part of BOTH parties??? What am I missing...even without ALL the details

[EZ Land]

My $0.02. From the sounds of the 911 tape, Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation when it could've been avoided. He stated, "these a**holes always get away." (or something to that effect). To me, at least, this sounds like he was itching for a fight. He had had enough of these punks roaming through the neighborhood, and he was the guy who was going to put a stop to it. Perhaps Martin did do something to threaten Zimmerman, but it certainly appears that Zimmerman was the aggressor. I read this forum quite often, and I hear "situational awareness this and situational awareness that" quite a bit. As carriers of a deadly weapon, collectively, we should behave beyond reproach, lest ye suffer the consequences. Where was zimmerman's SA? The best defense, as many of you preach, is to be aware of, and to avoid (when possible), situations which are potentially dangerous! Perhaps, the final analysis should be reserved till all the facts are in, but if (& it's a big "if") the evidence shows he acted as a wannabe cop and vigilante, then murder would be the only logical charge, IMO. Cutting through a neighborhood and being a black male is not a reason to shoot someone. It doesn't matter if it was an "all white" neighborhood as someone suggested a few pages back. That in itself is racist. He did a disservice to all of the folks who carry lawfully and for the purpose of defending one's family and self. The backlash is going to sting all of us.

[EZ Land]

.

Trayvon is not a child. It is difficult to judge age in the dark. But he was 17 - our military guys are in combat at age 18 - not much of a difference in age. Someone that age is a man, not a child, and unlikely to be fearful of rape, etc. as you stated.

Seriously? How do you know Martin's state of mind? Did you know him, his tendencies, his background? How do you know that he wasn't just a total wimp? 17 is not a man. Even though 18 is old enough to be in combat- many are not "men" as you say, but still boys. I'm 40, and I haven't seen too many 17 or 18 yr olds who are men. Many think they are, but very few are when it comes down to it. Now, I'm not saying that a 17 yr old shouldn't be treated as an adult, but to say that a kid is a man just cause he's 17 is, IMO, silly.

[Longitude Zero]

It would be nice if the family was honest and gave the media pics that showed him recently. The pics being used are 4-5 years old and show his as a preteen/early teeen.

[tilefish]

http://www.weerdworld.com/2012/george-zimmerman-arrest-report/

[muggsy]

Questions still unanswered. Did this kid live in the gated community? If not what was he doing trespassing there after dark? Why was he wearing a hoodie? Why was he suspended from school for ten days?
As long as there is a pending investigation you aren't going to hear anything more from the police or Zimmerman. Until and if he is arrested, tried by a jury of his peers and found guilty, Zimmerman should be considered innocent of any crime. That's the way that our criminal justice systems works. So far all that I have heard from the Zimmerman's detractors is speculation, conjecture and unjustified anger. Let's let cooler heads prevail. The final outcome of this case should have no bearing the "stand your ground" provision. The shooting was either justified or it wasn't.

[Russ]

For a ho, not hardly. They are on their own when I am off duty. Actually as a man educated in lawful use of deadly force, and a certified/recognized trainer in such, it is a common sense type thing. If you had ever had to make this kind of choice you would not be so quick to judge. The fact you did tells me you have NEVER been in this postion and thus are inexperienced in the reality of the situation. So sit and let me educate you.

I have been in this circumstance both on and off duty. On duty I step in. Off duty I do not. The vast majority of CCW's who have any intelligence will tell you stay out of a fight that does not directly concern you. Also you have no back up, you have no idea who might be friends of the couple, etc.

I hope you get the proper education on CCW and the correct way to react instead of an emotional/reactionary act of stupidity before you are the next news item. muggsy you re smarter than this, time to show it.

It is a matter of training and perspective. I have it...

Sir:

I am not a cop. I work closely with police officers (I work for a city) and I know to cope with all the bad my friends in uniform deal with they detach themselves from the victim otherwise the natural human emotions most experience when witnessing tragedy would be too much.

My concern is overtime that detachment can be unhealthy. For example that Ho is someone's daughter and maybe she is not making good choices but she still deserves compassion.

I would recommend you seek help to manage the detachment. It has been my observation that the most balanced cops get involved when off duty serving children from broken homes. Boys and Girls Club are looking for male volunteers. I promise you if you get involved serving others in need you will look at that Ho as someone's daughter.

Russ

[muggsy]

[QUOTE=Longitude Zero;146722]I would probably just watch and report based upon primarily how the combatants were dressed. If it was a pimp vs ho fight then she is on her own and I might not even call 911.

As I have posted before the politics of this situation are going to trump reality and common sense. Most of what happens will hinge upon who is in charge of the federal civil rights investigation. Not the agency but the particular person. They will make all the difference.

For those of you who have never been near a federal civil rights investigation is is not the same as a local criminal investigation. There are specific written criteria to determine what happens. If you do not reach the threshold for the case to go to an indictment then it is over. The bar the family will have to hurdle to convince the authorities is much higher than you think. And since the Stand your Ground law is intertwined here...[/QUOTE

Does how a person is dress, or does their chosen occupation make them any less human? Who are you to judge? Didn't you swear an oath to protect and serve. Most cops I know consider themselves to be on duty 24/7. In what jurisdiction do you serve? If I see anyone being beaten on the street I'm going to intervene. I'm not gun happy cop wannabe, but I am a man.

[Bawanna]

There's valid points on both sides of this story. Off duty intervention can be very risky business.

I myself would get involved in our area. I think geography plays a big part of what actions a person might take.

I'm a get involved kind of guy but sometimes that not completely smart either.

Lets focus on civility here, not go too personal, we're all on the same side.

[TriggerMan]

Questions still unanswered. Did this kid live in the gated community? If not what was he doing trespassing there after dark? Why was he wearing a hoodie? Why was he suspended from school for ten days?
As long as there is a pending investigation you aren't going to hear anything more from the police or Zimmerman. Until and if he is arrested, tried by a jury of his peers and found guilty, Zimmerman should be considered innocent of any crime. That's the way that our criminal justice systems works. So far all that I have heard from the Zimmerman's detractors is speculation, conjecture and unjustified anger. Let's let cooler heads prevail. The final outcome of this case should have no bearing the "stand your ground" provision. The shooting was either justified or it wasn't.Trayvon Martin was a guest in the community as he was visiting his father who was there with his girlfriend.

His school suspension was for the high crime of tardiness.

Hoodies are a matter of style and quite useful when it rains...as it did briefly that night.

[Deano]

...He did a disservice to all of the folks who carry lawfully and for the purpose of defending one's family and self. The backlash is going to sting all of us.So True

[Longitude Zero]

I do not think their are words strong enough to describe the potential and real harm Zimmerman has done us all.

[lowroad]

I like reading these threads. They give me very keen insight on who I want to associate with, listen to, or even remotely acknowledge as an intelligent human being. As jfootin says ....VEDDDYY INTEVESTING.

[muggsy]

I do not think their are words strong enough to describe the potential and real harm Zimmerman has done us all.

I agree, this might even cause some people to want try to take our guns away. That's never happened in the past. ;):rolleyes:

[zhills]

It's got nothing to do with left or right. This ******** chased down an unarmed 17 year old kid and shot him dead in the street after being specifically told not to chase after the "suspect" by police dispatch. You shoot only when there is no choice in order to protect your life. You don't chase down anyone, ever.


In My CW class, our instructor said if a bad guy turns and runs, the treat is over. no need for any further action.

[Deano]

I heard today that Trayvon was shot in the back. I have been searching for this information, but not finding anything. Can anyone confirm from a reliable source if this is true?

[Longitude Zero]

I agree, this might even cause some people to want try to take our guns away. That's never happened in the past. ;):rolleyes:

I doubt the liberals would go that far on a first step. They are like nightcrawlers they will nibble away in dark places we do not suspect. We cannot be taken down by a frontal attack but nibbles at the fringes.

It reminds me of the difference in a frog being in warm water that is slowly raised to the boiling point. By the time he realizes the danger it is too late to get out.

[Longitude Zero]

I heard today that Trayvon was shot in the back. I have been searching for this information, but not finding anything. Can anyone confirm from a reliable source if this is true?

An entry wound in the back is not really dispositive of much. Shootings are a very DYNAMIC and changing by the instant. Many well known self defense experts can explain and easily show how a wound in the back is not the smoking gun many ignorant folks both gun/non gun beleive.

It truly amazes me that lack of education/ignorance in the firearms community about the dynamics of gunfights especailly when there is SO MUCH data available on the internet.

[JFootin]

An entry wound in the back is not really dispositive of much. Shootings are a very DYNAMIC and changing by the instant. Many well known self defense experts can explain and easily show how a wound in the back is not the smoking gun many ignorant folks both gun/non gun beleive.

It truly amazes me that lack of education/ignorance in the firearms community about the dynamics of gunfights especailly when there is SO MUCH data available on the internet.

This wasn't a gunfight. The young man was unarmed. Sorry, I don't see any justifiable reason for an unarmed teenager being shot in the back.

[Longitude Zero]

This wasn't a gunfight. The young man was unarmed. Sorry, I don't see any justifiable reason for an unarmed teenager being shot in the back.

In generally I agree but there are so many factors beyond the alleged location of the entry wound as so far NOBODY outside of the investigation really knows.

What I find dishonest are the several years old pictures of TM. Why doesn't the family publish pictures thatt are newer? Maybe because they do not support their position, maybe because they are trying to engender sympathy that he does not deserve???

My discerning mind wants to know.

Shootings in the back of unarmed individuals are not automatically unjustified. Each situation is different and only uninformed individuals try to explain this situation by what they think they know about past situations.

[JFootin]

In generally I agree but there are so many factors beyond the alleged location of the entry wound as so far NOBODY outside of the investigation really knows.

What I find dishonest are the several years old pictures of TM. Why doesn't the family publish pictures thatt are newer? Maybe because they do not support their position, maybe because they are trying to engender sympathy that he does not deserve???

My discerning mind wants to know.

Shootings in the back of unarmed individuals are not automatically unjustified. Each situation is different and only uninformed individuals try to explain this situation by what they think they know about past situations.

Still a lot of unanswered questions. We'll have to see how it plays out.

[jocko]

wel Obama is in on it now along with Rev. Sharpton, Jess J. will be in shortly to take over for Sharpie, so between those 3, indeed we will see justice!!!!!!
Hope this firearm doesn't show up as one of Eric Holders LOST guns:popcorn:

[Longitude Zero]

Still a lot of unanswered questions. We'll have to see how it plays out.

Agreed.

[TheTman]

Here is a post from the Dan Wesson forum:

"I started reading various reports on the Martin/Zimmerman shooting yesterday afternoon. There are some interesting points that most of the press conveniently overlooks. Yes, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to maybe chase, maybe talk to, maybe he just got out, but whatever the reason Zimmerman apparently lost sight of Martin and was going back to his vehicle. Apparently Martin then attacked Zimmerman from behind. If that is true, Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground; it is impossible to stand your ground when you are walking away from a situation. If Zimmerman had stood his ground, Martin probably wouldn't have attacked. There would have been no shooting. Apparently there is an eyewitness that saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top of, and beating, Zimmerman. Zimmerman was apparently calling for Martin to stop the beating. The eyewitness went inside his house to call 911. The shooting took place while the eyewitness was inside. Zimmerman is reported to have had injuries on the back as well as the front of his head. It was also reported by another resident who was too scared to look that there was a lot of shouting before the shot was fired.

One report also disclosed that Martin did not live in the neighborhood. He was with his mother while he was serving a 10 day expulsion from high school. I haven't seen a report of what he did to get kicked out for 10 days. You can call me a harsh parent if you want but, if it were my kid, he would be grounded while serving the expulsion and if out, he would be under adult supervision."

Maybe the kid slipped out of the house to hit the crack pipe, and get his sugary skittles and caffeine to feed his high, and was casing cars on the way and talking to his baby-mama on the phone. Maybe he was checking for unlocked cars. Could be a lot of things. Just saying he might not be the innocent little child the press portrays him as. There's got to be some reason they let Zimmerman go, and we can discuss it all we want, but until the police let us in of the facts, it's all conjecture.

I used to take armed walks around the parking lot late at night when I lived in the apartments, the manager appreciated it. I didn't go looking to gun someone down, just keep cars from getting broke into by showing someone was up and watching. I never had to pull a gun on anyone, people would just move on when they saw someone coming. A lot of them were drunks from the bar next door coming over into our parking lot to do who knows what.

[jocko]

nice report, lets hope this is not media hype hearsay. There certinly is more to be found out here, so wheter he was black,white, pink, lets not hang an innocent person either. Let the system work. I have carried for 48 years, never had to EVER pull my gun in anger. the fact that I had it on me was not that I was scared but that I was not scared. I hve been around in myd ays with some seedy people and the lqast thing I would want to ever do is to p;ull my gun, Hell he may have a bigger guna nd might be able to hit what he aims at. U know some of these bg's have shot at people before, where as I have never. There is a difference and a **** hair of hesitation on my part and not on his part could mean ol jocko has left the building for good. Just sayin.

Let the system work. One thing in the shooters favor if u want to call it that is thgat the other person is dead, he cannot tell his story PERIOD.

[Patriot Prepper]

I am getting tired of the racist accusations. About 20 years ago, my little cousin was walking on the sidewalk in his neighborhood. A car pulled up, a black kid got out and shot my cousin in the stomach with a .22lr - my cousin died a few hours later. When they caught the black kid, he said he was out to "get a honky." Is that racist? No one marched, Jesse Jackson did not get on the news and claim it was a racist act. So why is it that every time a black person is a victim, it is automatically racist? And the whole community goes ballistic.

Not to mention rape. Here's a quote: "The FBI keeps very detailed national records on crime, but the way it presents rape data obscures the racial element rather than clarifies it. Dr. William Wilbanks, a criminologist at Florida International University, had to sift carefully through the data to find that in 1988 there were 9,406 cases of black-on-white rape and fewer than ten cases of white-on-black rape. [320] Another researcher concludes that in 1989, blacks were three or four times more likely to commit rape than whites, and that black men raped white women thirty times as often as white men raped black women. [321]" I have seen stats that show recent higher numbers. Does anyone have them?

Seems when it is black on white, no one cares. White on black and it is by default a racist act. The press is creating a media circus on the issue of race and this will have a negative impact on CCW holders. Whether this was racial or not has little if any bearing on gun laws. The media needs to stand down on the racial issue.

[jocko]

hel;lur just preachin to the choir here, but try to say that onnational tv, get any "white" politican aside and he will totally agree with u. Do u think f we had a national vote on MLK day it would have happened. Join the world of irratinality my friend.

[Barth]

I really don't watch the news.
But the coverage is hard to not notice.

Unfortunately it smacks of yellow journalism.
Pure sensationalism to make headlines.
Pictures of the kid look like they were taken years ago.
An investigation is underway and we are not privy to the details.
No one was charged.
So there had to be some indication of clear and present danger
for a potentially justifiable shooting.

There was a similar case here where two teens attempted to mug a jogger at 2AM on a school night. The jogger was attacked and hit in the head. He drew is weapon. Shot and killed one of the attackers. Initially the news was full of miss-information on how a un-armed school kid was murdered. Family and friends were interviewed and talked about what a wonderful kid and student he was. It was really lubricious and sad the news coverage.

Eventually the jogger was found justified in defending himself and the story subsided.

[Longitude Zero]

Geraldo Rivera chimes in.

I rarely agree with Geraldo but he has a valid discussion point about TM wearing hoodies and how his choice of clothing contirbuted to his death. How a person is percieved depends upon many factors and clothing choice is definitely one that gets noticed.

Race, sex, dress, mannerisms, behavior, location, tone/tenor/emotionvolume/colloquilisms in the voice, are just a few of the factors that go into how you are percieved. Just because you dress, talk, act like a gangsta does not make you a gansta but it gives that perception a head start.

Dress like a gansta, talk like a gansta, act like a gansta, well you get the idea. I remember a famous advertsing schtick...Clothes make the man...

[Barth]

Geraldo Rivera chimes in.

I rarely agree with Geraldo but he has a valid discussion point about TM wearing hoodies and how his choice of clothing contirbuted to his death. How a person is percieved depends upon many factors and clothing choice is definitely one that gets noticed.

Race, sex, dress, mannerisms, behavior, location, tone/tenor/emotionvolume/colloquilisms in the voice, are just a few of the factors that go into how you are percieved. Just because you dress, talk, act like a gangsta does not make you a gansta but it gives that perception a head start.

Dress like a gansta, talk like a gansta, act like a gansta, well you get the idea. I remember a famous advertsing schtick...Clothes make the man...

When I took my concealed carry course 20+ years ago I still remember
the instructor cautioning us about dress, time and location.

Where you are, what time it is, how your dressed and who you're with - is important.
Then he made it crystal clear.
Please don't carry a concealed weapon and dress like a criminal or thug.

[jocko]

or ride a Harley!!! expecially a black one with ape bars!!! Just sayin. I have yet to see a Hoder goldwing rider slapped up aside a squad car and being frisked!!!!Just sayin.

I guess there is sumpin to thge ol sayin. "u meet the nicest people on a honder"

just sayi:popcorn:

[Longitude Zero]

Please don't carry a concealed weapon and dress like a criminal or thug.

I would add the phrase...or act like...right after the word dress

[Native]

Why would anyone feel the need to respond to a question asked by a watchman?
They have no authority that is why they call the police.
If he stops following the kid(like he was advised to do) and lets the police do their job the kid is still alive and his life is not a mess.
We may find out all the facts and that he truly is innocent but either way he is still an ididot!
This^^^. I have a friend who has a paid job similar to Zimmermans self appointed one on a much larger scale complete with all kinds of "issued" tacticool stuff. Although he doesn't really need it, I remind him all the time that he would be a complete moron to get himself in any situation involving property where he actually needs to clear leather (actually kydex). Everyone in LE and any clear thinking civilian knows you don't get yourself into a deadly force situation over property unless you are sworn to do so, or maybe unless it's yours in some rare cases. Whether the shooting is "justified" or not is still up in the air, despite the hype, but the shooter is clearly an ignorant moron for getting himself into the deadly force situation over property in the first place whether stand your ground applies or not. Now he's having the first few of many sleepless nights over what? A perceived threat to property? Give me a break. That's LE's job no matter what wannabees might think.

[Bawanna]

Self appointed or paid he was a watchman like your friend doing his job. Is he to drive around and not question or investigate anything that seems suspicious because its LE job and he has no authority and it's only expensive homes and property in a gated community he's tasked with watching over?.
Seems like any watchman is just spinning his wheels.
I'm not defending or prosecuting the watchman. I don't know the facts only what the media puts out which is highly questionable.

Anybody have a copy of that dead horse they could post about now, this is about as boring as a hula hoop.

[jocko]

never put a deadhorse andhoola hoops i the same sentence. NEVER as u know hoola hoops have no value at all, a dead horse stillhas to use;s, Just sayin:popcorn:

[Native]

Self appointed or paid he was a watchman like your friend doing his job. Is he to drive around and not question or investigate anything that seems suspicious because its LE job and he has no authority and it's only expensive homes and property in a gated community he's tasked with watching over?.
Seems like any watchman is just spinning his wheels.
I'm not defending or prosecuting the watchman. I don't know the facts only what the media puts out which is highly questionable.

Anybody have a copy of that dead horse they could post about now, this is about as boring as a hula hoop.
I might be guilty of the faux pas of answering a rhetorical question here, but my buddy will be the first to acknowledge he is basically giving the residents a somewhat false sense of security. Much like, as he describes, any decent armored car guard, who should simply hand over the money. There is some value to all the tacticool gear he's got though, as he is in radio contact with local LE. I'm not saying all of this is "right", just the correct way to have less sleepless nights for wading into the area colored by shades of grey. LE is sworn (and paid) to have those sleepless nights should the grey be breached.

[jocko]

I see these mall ninja's walking around in full garb with a can of tear gas spray on their belt and cuffs and radio. Talk about a false sense of security..
LEO'S are trained to protect and serve, we civilians should protect ourselves and family FIRST and then call the cops for thge rest:popcorn: just sayin.

when seconds count, the police is just minutes away:popcorn:

[Husky44]

I would probably just watch and report based upon primarily how the combatants were dressed. If it was a pimp vs ho fight then she is on her own and I might not even call 911.

Way the heck off topic, I know, and not trying to sound overly judgmental, but I'd suggest you look a little more into the very real problem of human trafficking and its pervasiveness in the sex trade. Those "hos" as you so eloquently dehumanize them, aren't all there because they want to be. Not sure what your demographics are like, but where I live it's a real problem, and our LEOs are aware of it, and don't have the cavalier attitude that she's getting the beating she deserves for trying to rip off her loving pimp...

[Deano]

Geraldo Rivera chimes in.

I rarely agree with Geraldo but he has a valid discussion point about TM wearing hoodies and how his choice of clothing contirbuted to his death. How a person is percieved depends upon many factors and clothing choice is definitely one that gets noticed.

Race, sex, dress, mannerisms, behavior, location, tone/tenor/emotionvolume/colloquilisms in the voice, are just a few of the factors that go into how you are percieved. Just because you dress, talk, act like a gangsta does not make you a gansta but it gives that perception a head start.

Dress like a gansta, talk like a gansta, act like a gansta, well you get the idea. I remember a famous advertsing schtick...Clothes make the man...My son and I were talking about this exact thing tonight. I also seldom agree with him on much, but he hit the nail on the head with this one. Mad props to him for not holding back and telling it like it is, without fear of backlash for his lack of sensitivity. He's 100% correct on this one.

[EZ Land]

Geraldo Rivera chimes in.

I rarely agree with Geraldo but he has a valid discussion point about TM wearing hoodies and how his choice of clothing contirbuted to his death. How a person is percieved depends upon many factors and clothing choice is definitely one that gets noticed.

Race, sex, dress, mannerisms, behavior, location, tone/tenor/emotionvolume/colloquilisms in the voice, are just a few of the factors that go into how you are percieved. Just because you dress, talk, act like a gangsta does not make you a gansta but it gives that perception a head start.

Dress like a gansta, talk like a gansta, act like a gansta, well you get the idea. I remember a famous advertsing schtick...Clothes make the man...

Yeah, he deserved to get shot because he was wearing a hoodie. That's absurd. Look, I make instantaneous judgements in my head all the time about the way people dress, but that doesn't mean I have the right to shoot them. I think it's utterly hideous that many of these kids (whites included) wear their pants below their ass. I also don't get why people get tattoos. I think they're pretty stupid. I think the most folks who ride Harley's and wear little black vests are mostly posers too. It's not my cup of tea, but that is their right to wear whatever the hell they want.

I see posers wearing wranglers, boots and cowboy hats all the time... That doesn't mean they know a steer from a heifer.

Even if the kid was breaking the law, that doesn't give Zimmerman the right to shoot him. The only way, as I see it, the shooting was justified is if Zimmerman's life was threatened. Anything short of that is unlawful.

We don't know what truly happened. Who knows if we ever will. But the way someone dresses, no matter how idiotic, gangsta like, or red neck like does not justify one being shot.

We all support the 2nd amendment and are ever vigilant, as we should be, about protecting it. But there is also another amendment, the first, that is equally important. That includes the way we choose to dress, our religious preferences, etc, even IF we don't agree with them.

[Longitude Zero]

We don't know what truly happened. Who knows if we ever will. But the way someone dresses, no matter how idiotic, gangsta like, or red neck like does not justify one being shot.

Based upon thst single reason I agree. However the point I made wiith clarity is that clothing is one reason to be concerened about a person in combination with others, as I clearly posted.

Clothing, behavior, actions, area of contact, the hair on the back or your neck standing up, your gut feeling something is wrong are all some of the factors.

If anybody sees a male subject(s) regardless of race doing the hip hop gansta stroll, pose down, throwing gang signs, talking gutter slang everybody with 2 or more living brians cels would agree that is a person to be given extra special attention and avoived if possible. If they approach you behaving like that they have escalated the situation and I am going to be in full RED defensive mode and may even have my hand on my concealed weapon.

If you act like a gangsta banger you will be treated as a gangsta banger. That is fact and quite frankly the correct action. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

I am NOT SAYING this is what happened only how I would react if the listed factors were occurring in my area of concern.

Now I am off to the river for the weekend for some enlightening fly fishing.

[EZ Land]

Based upon thst single reason I agree. However the point I made wiith clarity is that clothing is one reason to be concerened about a person in combination with others, as I clearly posted.

Clothing, behavior, actions, area of contact, the hair on the back or your neck standing up, your gut feeling something is wrong are all some of the factors.

If anybody sees a male subject(s) regardless of race doing the hip hop gansta stroll, pose down, throwing gang signs, talking gutter slang everybody with 2 or more living brians cels would agree that is a person to be given extra special attention and avoived if possible. If they approach you behaving like that they have escalated the situation and I am going to be in full RED defensive mode and may even have my hand on my concealed weapon.

If you act like a gangsta banger you will be treated as a gangsta banger. That is fact and quite frankly the correct action. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

I am NOT SAYING this is what happened only how I would react if the listed factors were occurring in my area of concern.

Now I am off to the river for the weekend for some enlightening fly fishing.

I agree. That is situational awareness, is it not? However, you're muddying the waters here. Based in the reports (however factual), Martin was walking in the subdivision talking on the phone, alone. Hardly, it seems to me, doing the "gangsta stroll" or flashing gang signs. However, even if he were, the self appointed watchdog, Zimmerman, did not (unless the facts show otherwise) have the right to shoot him. Being situationally aware means that you're "aware" of potential dangers and avoid them. Period. You don't pursue something based on a gut feeling unless you're a LEO. Otherwise, you're a concerned citizen, and you report it. If your, or another's, life is in danger, then obviously, intervening would be justified. And, I would do no less.

The situation as we know it to be now, is that Zimmerman pursued, at least to a point. If he had any sense, he would have kept his butt in his car. However, these facts may change more than once in the coming weeks and months. I maintain, however, most likely this tragedy could have easily been avoided if Zimmerman had any SA. And isn't that the purpose of ccw? To protect, not to hunt??

[knkali]

Now I am off to the river for the weekend for some enlightening fly fishing.

tight lines to you!

[knkali]

This wasn't a gunfight. The young man was unarmed. Sorry, I don't see any justifiable reason for an unarmed teenager being shot in the back.

Just because a young man is unarmed doesnt mean he isnt a threat. I had the eye opening experience of lining up against a young man, much younger than me, for some hand to hand training. I thought I could make a fight of it. The speed that young men move at and the speed I/we lose as we age is huge. This makes for a very one sided confrontation. IMHO a weapon of some sort is almost always needed to even out the playing field.

[Bawanna]

Way the heck off topic, I know, and not trying to sound overly judgmental, but I'd suggest you look a little more into the very real problem of human trafficking and its pervasiveness in the sex trade. Those "hos" as you so eloquently dehumanize them, aren't all there because they want to be. Not sure what your demographics are like, but where I live it's a real problem, and our LEOs are aware of it, and don't have the cavalier attitude that she's getting the beating she deserves for trying to rip off her loving pimp...

Longitudes use of the word "hos" was used in the context of contacting these situations off duty or as a civilian. If you read back he clearly stated he would make the contact and stop the beating or fight while on duty in uniform.

That's a wise assessment in my opinion as again as he stated there's usually no way to tell who all is involved in the back ground. On duty you got a radio and help not far away.

Since we really don't know any of the vital details and now O bummer is saying if he had a son he'd look like that (with or without the hoodie) all chance of a fair trial is out the window anyhow.
The police chief stepping aside is a clear indication that he felt they did right and outsiders felt he did wrong.
He's lost control and its in somebody elses hands now. I don't side with either because I don't have a clue what happened nor does anyone else here but I predict Zimmerman is toast weather he's guilty of wrong doing or not.

I'd suggest we just let this one rest awhile until we get some facts which now really isn't gonna happen. No chance.

[jocko]

my daughter lives in sanford and states it is a feeding frenzy. this kid had every right to be in that subdivision as some of his family7 lived there. Sandford Fl in the past has had some police dept issues. Now that the head man has now stated his thoughts, this guy be he guiltyt or innocent IMO has no chance of seeiing daylight. I am trying to remember if the great one ever stepped in with any comments about the Casey anthony case. Maybe this fella's only chance willbe throug the judicial system,. Hell those floridians turned Casey Anthonyt loose, this guy might have a fair shot at it to. Then watch the blacks march!!!

White on White crime, no big deal. Black on White crime, still not big deal. White on black crime, big fokking deal. hopefully that can be explained to me..
Again not all people should be allowed to carry a gun eiter. If this guy killed that kid, sent the fokker to jail, those who will suffer is the people who do feel the STAND YOUR GROUND LAW is a good law but as u know they is already a movement to rescind that law.

[Barth]

my daughter lives in sanford and states it is a feeding frenzy. this kid had every right to be in that subdivision as some of his family7 lived there. Sandford Fl in the past has had some police dept issues. Now that the head man has now stated his thoughts, this guy be he guiltyt or innocent IMO has no chance of seeiing daylight. I am trying to remember if the great one ever stepped in with any comments about the Casey anthony case. Maybe this fella's only chance willbe throug the judicial system,. Hell those floridians turned Casey Anthonyt loose, this guy might have a fair shot at it to. Then watch the blacks march!!!

White on White crime, no big deal. Black on White crime, still not big deal. White on black crime, big fokking deal. hopefully that can be explained to me..
Again not all people should be allowed to carry a gun eiter. If this guy killed that kid, sent the fokker to jail, those who will suffer is the people who do feel the STAND YOUR GROUND LAW is a good law but as u know they is already a movement to rescind that law.

There are nut jobs everywhere.
Florida was one of the first states to put a shall issue statute on the books.
We have reciprocity agreements with the majority of other states in this still great union.

The acts of one hammer head shouldn't be cause to strip freedom from the rest of us.
I still have hope that what ever happens in this individual isolated incident it doesn't change the good of the many.

[jocko]

Indiana has had shallissue for over 50 years plus a few yers back was the first with a lifetime carry license. We also have the castle doctrine law in effect to, very similar to the florida STAND UR GROUND law. I can leave Indiana and ride allthe way to florida and every state I pas through has the recoprocitry agrement with Indiana.. Only takes on nut case to get the ball rolling uphill though. I do feel this zimmerman guy might fit that description.

I think back now about 30+ years ago, I once livedon a main street in my small town and I couldhear sirens etc out in front, so I walked out on my open porch with the now x-wife to see what was going on and the cops were running after some fella who was darting in between homes to get away. He crossed the street right in front of my home and kept running. I watched (no more no less) and pointed to the runnig officers the direction he went. I ask myself today what "would zimmerman had done. mY thoughts are that he would have dropped that fella dead in his tracks:behindsofa:

some people should not be owning guns, let alone carryng them. We justhad a young kid killed two days ago right behind Panera Bread where I ride daily for coffee. He was howing off to hisw girlfriends (3 of them) on his new crotch rocket in the driveway behind the restaurant, and at a high rate of speed, he tries to put it in a slide kand slide over 200 feet and hit a midian barrier, damn near cut him in half. Died instantly. Some people should not ride motorcycles either. A tragedy no less though.

[chrish]

If someone already posted this, apologies for being redundant. But i heard this early on, 4 weeks ago, then nothing. Now its coming out again. But for those not aware, there was evidently a witness at some level (somebody named John) that told police someone in red was on the ground, underneath another person, getting the crap beat out of him (Zimmerman was wearning red according to the reports) while yelling for help. Zimmerman had grass stains, broken nose, bloodied head, etc. If he just walked up and shot Martin, who beat the daylights out of Zimmerman?

Problem now is the court of public opinion is treating the 911 recording like they have to be Martin yelling for help, regardless of whether or not Zimmerman uttered a racial slur, public playing of that information has resulted in trying him for what he said vs what he did. And, worst of all, Martins girlfriends phone conversation is the bible now and her account of what was going on (from Miami mind you) is being treated by the media as eye witness level information.

I'm not suggesting I know what happened, but the whole thing in the media right now stinks to high heaven. It's going to be more nasty me thinks.

Current pictures of either guy are not particularly flattering...they could have BOTH been members of a Miami gang from those shots.

What a royal mess. Glad I don't live in Orlando.

[JimC]

Well, Jeb Bush who signed the law into effect in 2005, has weighed in on this. He said the "stand your ground" law shouldn't protect Zimmerman.
Republicans stand behind the FL law.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/24/republican-leaders-express-sympathy-support-stand-your-ground/

IMO, Zimmerman is a classic example of someone that just because the state is a "shall isue" state, doesn't mean everyone should be issued a CCW.
Zimmerman is a loose cannon that just rolled over all CCW holders and went off!

:behindsofa:

[jocko]

u got that right, that law should not be used as a defense but you can bet it willbe \his lawyers primary defense plus the fact that dead people cannot tell their story either. Zimmerman can say damn near what ever he wants and it is up to the state to disprove it. A good and total honest jury might indeed find him not guilty but wow is the pressure gonna be on them big time to bring back a guilty verdict.

Hell look at this military kook Hassah that killed all those soldiers down in texas, how long has that been and now we have another military guy who killed all those innocents overseas and already they want to hanghim high... Hindsigtht is always 20-20 and we weren't there when this went down last month n florida..

[CJB]

FWIW..... I happen to be in Sanford and Deltona this weekend. All seems calm at the present. Texas Longhorn last nite....some mixed discussion.

A lot of locals side with Z on this. Not all that was in the crowd.

[chrish]

Sorry, don't get me wrong. I personally think the bottom of the gene pool was at play here across the board. From all accounts, Zimmerman was a few screws short. From a number of reports, he was a self appointed law enforcement officer, he had a temper, had some assault charges that were purged from his record. I think someone even said he wouldn't even have gotten a CCW permit had his record not been cleaned up.

It's just all bad. I was just pointing out that I don't think we have a case here that is as cut and dried as the media is (successfully) painting here. We know zilch about exactly what happened and transpired between 911 call A and 911 call B-Z that included the actual shooting. Did Z threaten M enough to cause M to have to go on the offensive? Did Z brandish and then get his butt kicked? Did Z sorta follow dispatch advice and M doubled back and jump him? Did M simply spew some racial slurs and/or throw a first punch? Did they both just get up in each others grill and it turned nasty? Who knows...

Like I said, royal mess.

[jocko]

u could be right but when one packs a gun a entire new line of responsibility followes that priveldge to. Because I can carry legaly does't mean I can shoot at will either. Other than what 911 has on tape, we will never know for sure exaxctly what was said at the scene as half of the issues is dead ad cannot speak, so the Z man has ony to say what went down and now it is up to the SYSTEM to porve him wrong. That willnot be an easy thing to do. Won't be the first killer to get off. He might have read O.J's book. If it don't fit u can't convict. A royal mess fur sure, what is odd is it took almost a month for this to surface and the assholes like Jesse J. and Sharpton to arrive to fuel the fire. Where were they a month ago?? No doubt had Zimmerman shot a white boy, this would not be a 12 page thread on this forum, which even so is probably 11 pages to many even now. It happened, we know really what happened, the system we hope now works for justiice, ...

[Armybrat]

Well, here in Texas our CHL instructors spend half of our training time in conflict resolution and avoiding conflicts. Our Castle Doctrine law probably wouldn't cover this Zimmerman character because of the words "reasonable ffear of one's life". Since Z was stalking the Martin kid, it appears that boy may have been in fear of his own life and reacted accordingly.

Just because Zimmerman got his butt whipped is not much of a reason to think that Martin was the initial aggressor. As has beeen noted plenty - Zimmerman caused the incident.

[jocko]

the photo of the Martin youth and the zimmer man to me shows that zimmerman is a real hunk compared to the martin youth. Not that a slim youth cannot kick a heavier mans ass but there is nothing stated in this kids history off being a blackbelt or any sort of that type training. Just sayin.

[Armybrat]

Well, I think it's a tragedy all the way around, and a-hole scumbags like Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackass are gonna exploit it so's they can extort more $$$ outta somebody. Not to mention the anti-gun crowd trying to fook with a good law.

That POS Sharpton himself is an expert at inciting riots that cause death and destruction.

But I certainly feel bad for Martin's family, the way the local LEOs mishandled the whole case.

[Bawanna]

Who can really say local LE mishandled it. Maybe they have a key piece of information that makes it all clear.

A fair investigation is now impossible since everyone has already arrived at a decision without facts. We don't have half the pieces of the puzzle and we've already convicted right here.
Now that Sharpton and that bunch are in it, the facts don't matter any more. White guy killed black guy. Gotta be a racist. Schedule the execution.

Turn the rolls around and it wouldn't have made the 13th page in the local gazzette and the Sharpton bunch would have continued defrauding somebody else of their money.

[lowroad]

I wonder if Zimmerman would have followed and confronted a white youth in a hoodie. Like it or not, race is part of the equation here.

[jocko]

I agree with u on that.

[Deano]

Heraldo wasn't saying that wearing a hoody means you deserve to be shot. What he was saying is that wearing a hoody makes you look suspicious, like a hoodlum, and raises peoples antennae. I agree. If I'm walking down the street and notice I'm being followed by a couple of blacks wearing hoodies, I'm heading to the other side of the street. That doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart. If they follow me to the other side of the street, I've now got my hand on my weapon. Situational awareness is what keeps us ticking. For once Heraldo has given good advice. If you're not a thug looking for trouble, stop dressing like one, or trouble may find you.

[Barth]

Who can really say local LE mishandled it. Maybe they have a key piece of information that makes it all clear.

A fair investigation is now impossible since everyone has already arrived at a decision without facts. We don't have half the pieces of the puzzle and we've already convicted right here.
Now that Sharpton and that bunch are in it, the facts don't matter any more. White guy killed black guy. Gotta be a racist. Schedule the execution.

Turn the rolls around and it wouldn't have made the 13th page in the local gazzette and the Sharpton bunch would have continued defrauding somebody else of their money.

I had a friend that worked security at Tampa General Hospital ER.
Was told that he saw gunshot and stabbing victims every weekend
that never even made the back of the paper or end of a news broadcast.

That's what really bugs.
Cherry picked stories with partial and/or inaccurate information.
And seems like the general public just eats it up.

[lowroad]

since WHEN does a hooded sweatshirt make one appear to be a thug? 15 year old cheerleaders wear them, soccer moms wear them, military and police academy recruits wear them, firefighters wear them. You guys are kidding yourselves if you think it has anything do with a sweatshirt.

[Deano]

By the way. One morning I was up at 4:30 to go duck hunting. I opened my garage door and took my dog and guns out to the truck. Walked back inside to get my coat and coffee. When I came back out to the garage, there was a teen in there rummaging through our stuff looking for something of value to steal. I chased him up the street a ways where he jumped into a souped up honda with a friend at the wheel and sped off. Guess what? He was wearing a hoody.

[jocko]

Makes me not want to wear my Hoodie when walking early in the morning!!!! Just sayin

13 pages and climbing!!

[Deano]

since WHEN does a hooded sweatshirt make one appear to be a thug? 15 year old cheerleaders wear them, soccer moms wear them, military and police academy recruits wear them, firefighters wear them. You guys are kidding yourselves if you think it has anything do with a sweatshirt.I think you are the one kidding yourself. Obviously a soccer mom or cheerleader wearing a hoody won't look like a thug. That is not what we are talking about here. Heraldo, while a loose cannon, is not stupid. He had good reason for not letting his son wear a hoody when he went out at night, IMO of course.

[Deano]

http://www.box.com/shared/static/d89a97cc257458f4740a.jpg
This pug is clearly dressed like a thug.

[Bawanna]

You ever had your 4 wheeler high centered and hopelessly stuck without a winch or a tug from another truck.

That's where this thread is, going no where. A place where dreams are created on pure speculation.

Last weekend we had snow,today I mowed the grass wearing a hoodie, it was too warm but I wanted to send a message of I'm not sure what to I'm not sure who. Hope my chief doesn't resign and Obummer claims me as his son.

Got a damn oil leak too, looks like a steam driven locomotive riding lawn mower. There goes the Ruger fund, guess I could buy a Ruger (If I can find one) and just have tall grass.

[Deano]

Get the ruger, let the grass grow. Then you can lay low in the long grass and pick off the zombies as they slink by.

[Bawanna]

Get the ruger, let the grass grow. Then you can lay low in the long grass and pick off the zombies as they slink by.

Excellent idea. Do zombies wear hoodies? Anyone know if I pursued them or if they are obligated to answer my questions since I'm the self appointed security chief of my home and surround long grass?

I have a nice Maple tree with a perfect branch. If you think I violated the zombies civil rights and are tempted to call Sharpton I'll save everyone the expense and just hang myself.

Wearing my hoodie of course.

[muggsy]

I wonder if Zimmerman would have followed and confronted a white youth in a hoodie. Like it or not, race is part of the equation here.

How is Race a part of the equation here? Zimmerman is a Hispanic. I thought that only white republicans are racists, homophobes and bigots. Minorities can't be racists. Haven't you been listening to what Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have been saying? :rolleyes:

[Barth]

Do zombies wear hoodies?

Bad Skittles?
http://www.scifiscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/walking_dead_tv_show.jpg

[lowroad]

I think you are the one kidding yourself. Obviously a soccer mom or cheerleader wearing a hoody won't look like a thug. That is not what we are talking about here. Heraldo, while a loose cannon, is not stupid. He had good reason for not letting his son wear a hoody when he went out at night, IMO of course.So say what you mean..black kid in hoodie, is alert. Anyone else in hoodie, not an issue. Oh right, you already said that. Your stance is clear, I understand completely.


If I'm walking down the street and notice I'm being followed by a couple of blacks wearing hoodies, I'm heading to the other side of the street.

[Bawanna]

Well the ice is getting pretty thin. We're dealing with speculation and no solid facts. It's inevitable that someone will play the race card even more than it already has and far as I know no Kahr product was involved in this fiasco so what say we shut this one down.

If you need me I'll be laying out in the grass watching for zombies, or Sharpton, Or Jesse or my father obummer.

Piece out!