Is re-holstering a loaded weapon the single most dangerous thing you can do?

[Gliderguy]

I have given a lot of thought to ND's lately, particularly because I never want to have one. After watching lots of clips on youtube I have come to think there are probably as many ND's associated with holstering a loaded weapon as about any other single event or action. Maybe not so much for a duty belt holster that is free and clear of everything, but trying to fish a loaded weapon into that IWB holster at 4:00, (or 12:30!!!!:faint2:) where there are loose clothes about and the trigger is nowhere to be seen is enough to give me the heebie jeebies.

I can only imagine after a defensive shooting situation and you are riding the adrenaline dump Tsunami with shaky hands and trying to stow the weapon so you aren't waving it about as the police arrive.

Discussion?

[Barth]

I understand adrenalin dump issues.
But carry out side the waist band, inside the belt, cross draw.
Using my weak hand to pull up and hold my shirt.
Keeping it out of the way.
Quality finger control; I.E. Off the Trigger and Out of the Trigger Guard,
pretty much guarantees safe draw and holster of the weapon.

Driving a car is far and away the single most dangerous thing I do.

[Bawanna]

Right on all points. Adrenaline really messes with a person. Remembering to dec0ck, put safety on, all those things fall to pieces. One strong point for something like a Kahr with nothing to remember to do but get off the trigger. Practice and repetition help immensely but not a sure fire cure.

[BOBBO268]

if you have just used your gun in a defensive situation, the last thing you should really be worried about is a loaded re-holster.

1) You need to focus your weapon at your downed attacker, until the authorities arrive to detain the attacker. That and even though unlikely, there may be more threats

2) Many law enforcement shootings involve officers who come close to, if not completely, emptying their magazines, usually 13 - 16 shots, so for you to go through all 7, is not unlikely.

on a side note: if you call the police, or someone near you does, and you can influence them, make sure they inform 911 who you are, that you have a gun pointed at the assailant, and your clothing description. You will be ordered to the ground when the police arrive, just do what they say and you'll be cleared after their routine investigation. (or lay the gun on the ground as soon as you see the police, as long as you believe the attacker is dead, just don't touch the bad guys gun)

[TheTman]

Thats one of the things I like about my Remora, you can take the holster out, reholster your gun and replace the holstered weapon to where you wear it. My DeSantis is a pain in the ass to remove so I do reholster with it around back, and that's always done very carefully, with a finger laying across the bottom of the trigger guard so I can feel the trigger if it starts to move then moving the finger out of the way as the gun slides into the holster. You're right though, it would be easy to have an ND if you aren't careful; clothes getting hung up in the wrong place or a number of other things. I try not to take it out in the first place, but sometimes people want to have a look at it.
I imagine after a defensive shooting, when the cops got there I'd put the gun on the floor, as the cops are going to want it, and not bother reholstering it.
I'd probably stand there with my hands in plain sight and wait and see what they say to do.

[apheod]

When I reholster, I do it slowly and look back at what I'm doing. Even more so if I'm carrying in mu appendix holster. With a long trigger like a Kahr you're likely to feel some resistance if a loose tshirt or something has worked inside your trigger guard, so forcing it into the holster or doing it fast is a big no-no. I sometimes see guys rushing their loaded glocks back into leather after making ready for a stage in IDPA. I facepalm, and then politely inform them of the extreme danger of doing that when they come off the line. Some get indignant, most appreciate the tip.

One of the most dangerous and hard to break habits is catching a gun if you drop one. I've seen 2 NDs happen in IDPA, one a police officer speed drawing a glock, fired a shot into the ground about 5 feet in front of him as he was getting on target (with a glock) and one where someone tried to catch their high end 1911 as it dropped. It's hard to remember since its a split second reflex action, but you have to let that pistol fall.

In a defensive situation I agree, no need to reholster. Cousins come in late.

[Gliderguy]

I bring it up the way I did because my CCW instructor recommended retaining control of your weapon but putting it away after there is no longer an imminent threat. There may be other threats before law enforcement arrives, the BG might have a buddy still lurking close enough to be a problem if you lay your weapon down, unload it, or some other not well thought out act. When LEO's arrive it is definitely hazardous to your health to still have a weapon in your hand, particularly if maybe you are mentally still maxed out and not responding to instruction too well. It might also be a good way to get shot by a fellow CCW holder who happens along and reads the scene wrong.

I am pretty sure putting the weapon away but accessible, being sure law enforcement has been notified and keeping a safe distance from the downed aggressor is the correct action once you are sure the BG isn't getting back up.

It seems a balancing act, the deeper you conceal, the harder to safely re-secure your weapon if you have to draw it. Let me emphasize I am not concerned with the DRAWING of the weapon, only pushing it forwards into a holster where if the trigger did foul on anything the weapon would likely discharge and very likely wound the wielder.

Maybe worse is a very fast event where you draw and that act ends the confrontation with the aggressor fleeing. I would be sorely tempted to get the gun secured again quickly like it never happened - before my fellow CCW holder walks up on me in the dark and suddenly notices I am armed and fumbling around with a weapon.

I think If I were a weapon designer, I would add a momentary button on the rear of the slide that disengages the trigger bar when held down. you could depress that with your thumb while holstering and even if the trigger did get fouled in clothing the gun would not discharge. Wouldn't interfere with normal operations because one generally would not want a pistol to dischage if you have fingers lurking around behund the slide.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments thus far amd keep them coming!

[Cyterio]

I always put my finger behind the trigger on my Kahr when reholstering IWB. I tried it while unloaded and with my finger behind the trigger its impossible to pull it far enough back to fire it. I slide my finger out once it hits the edge of my kydex holster, the trigger is completely covered inside the holster by this time. Unfortunately this can't be done with all handguns so if you frequently change guns you carry I wouldn't recommend getting in the habit of doing this, could be dangerous.


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[Russ]

Unless you have discharged your ccw I can't see why you would draw a loaded gun in the first place.

I never practice drawing my gun loaded so this should only be an issue in the very remote event you used your firearm in a real life or death situation and to re-holster I will be removing my pocket holster from my pocket or IWB to re-holster to hand it over to the police officer investigating the shooting.

I believe you should only remove your ccw if you plan to discharge. There are legal reasons to only present your firearm if you plan to discharge. The police officer who taught the concealed class I attended informed us you should never tell a person you have a gun and never present your firearm if you don't plan to discharge. The person you aim your gun at can take legal action for your behavior. They can also take legal action for you informing them that you have a gun. It is called a threat.

The argument to justify deadly force is you or another person's life must be in clear and present danger and unless you discharge your firearm you or another person will die. If it is not that obvious you will be battling it out in court to justify your actions and even if it is black and white you may still be fighting it out in court because the entire gun rights idea is so devided in our country that there will be many lawyers on both sides willing to battle it out in court.

There is a difference between you and a police officer who presents their gun. They are trying to arrest the person not the case for the average citizen. You are trying to protect yourself or others from death or serious bodily harm besides reality is cops have the legal backing of the agency they represent you are on your own which means you could loose everything if you stick a gun in someone's face without the intent to discharge. Intimidation will not get you any brownie points in court it will get you arrested. However, for a police officer it is socially acceptable for them to present their firearm and not discharge. Average Joe who presents and does not fire will be looked upon by the public as a reckless power hungry gun owner. Right or wrong its reality and good luck in court when you are labeled a vigilante for brandishing a weapon. The police officer on the other hand will be prased for restraint especially if they were able to arrest the bad guy and no one got hurt.

Russ

[CJB]

Weapon and gear familiarity, and vast training. If your the person who carries but doesnt train and is thums at the range......ahem.

Also weapon choice. 1911...cocked...maybe unlocked.... Kahr is very safe.... King da pull

[Gliderguy]

Cyterio: All my carry guns are long DAO type. I like your suggestion and will explore how it works for me in UNLOADED practice. It seems a visual check of correct finger placement BEHIND trigger before holstering would be a prudent safety check to burn into muscle memory.

Russ: On ALL POINTS I agree with your post. There are documented cases of the simple act of drawing a firearm making the agressor flee before shots can be fired. I think I would have a hard time proving legitimate self defense if the agressor was shot in the back at farther than powder-burn range just because I already drew my weapon and therefore must fire it. (I do NOT believe that was your point, and hopefully I have better explained mine by the end of this post.)

My criteria for employing a CCW would be to prevent immediate likely death of myself or a loved one. I expect to be detained at least briefly and likely overnight if shots are fired. My secondary criteria for use of deadly force is " Going to jail for years with a cellmate named Bubba is better than what is about to happen to me in the next 5 seconds."

I dont take drawing a weapon lightly, if the somewhat hypothetical nature of my previous posts makes it seem otherwise.

[Gliderguy]

@ Russ: As I am not a LEO, I have to disarm to go into certain places such as government buildings and my place of work. That logically means at some point during my day I have to rearm myself. The current rig I have for my KAHR is not quickly detachable, so I have to reholster the loaded weapon. My LCP is in a pocket holster and the whole rig is stowed without these kinds of issues. I think this was the information missing that made me seem like I like to present loaded firearms without proper provocation.

[TriggerMan]

Unless you have discharged your ccw I can't see why you would draw a loaded gun in the first place.

I never practice drawing my gun loaded so this should only be an issue in the very remote event you used your firearm in a real life or death situation and to re-holster I will be removing my pocket holster from my pocket or IWB to re-holster to hand it over to the police officer investigating the shooting.

I believe you should only remove your ccw if you plan to discharge. There are legal reasons to only present your firearm if you plan to discharge. The police officer who taught the concealed class I attended informed us you should never tell a person you have a gun and never present your firearm if you don't plan to discharge. The person you aim your gun at can take legal action for your behavior. They can also take legal action for you informing them that you have a gun. It is called a threat.

The argument to justify deadly force is you or another person's life must be in clear and present danger and unless you discharge your firearm you or another person will die. If it is not that obvious you will be battling it out in court to justify your actions and even if it is black and white you may still be fighting it out in court because the entire gun rights idea is so devided in our country that there will be many lawyers on both sides willing to battle it out in court.

There is a difference between you and a police officer who presents their gun. They are trying to arrest the person not the case for the average citizen. You are trying to protect yourself or others from death or serious bodily harm besides reality is cops have the legal backing of the agency they represent you are on your own which means you could loose everything if you stick a gun in someone's face without the intent to discharge. Intimidation will not get you any brownie points in court it will get you arrested. However, for a police officer it is socially acceptable for them to present their firearm and not discharge. Average Joe who presents and does not fire will be looked upon by the public as a reckless power hungry gun owner. Right or wrong its reality and good luck in court when you are labeled a vigilante for brandishing a weapon. The police officer on the other hand will be prased for restraint especially if they were able to arrest the bad guy and no one got hurt.

RussRuss, I ran a poll here on members who had pulled their weapon. I was surprised by the number who had. If I remember, two members had fired warning shots! One was well explained and justified. See if you can find it, you'll be amazed.

Found it....23 of 74 respondents cleared leather at some time. Few fired.

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10418

[JFootin]

Russ, all you said is valid, but there are countless people over many generations, especially in big cities like New York, who have staved off a mugging by revealing they had a firearm, often just a tiny 25 that they never had to fire. Police were never called and life went on as normal. How likely is it that a mugger would seek to press charges in a situation like that?

[SpecK]

Russ, all you said is valid, but there are countless people over many generations, especially in big cities like New York, who have staved off a mugging by revealing they had a firearm, often just a tiny 25 that they never had to fire. Police were never called and life went on as normal. How likely is it that a mugger would seek to press charges in a situation like that?

Dispatch: "911, What's your emergency?"

BG: "Yeah, sooo, I was about to rob this guy....buuuut he's got a gunnnn. Can you send some officers down to check it out? Im just gonna run over here to Starbucks til you all are finished. Thannkks."

[Tilos]

An ND at an outdoor range, where I used to shoot in Oregon, was to a Police officer reholstering her gun and one of those draw string clamping things on her windbreaker, bridged the the holster while inside the trigger guard...bang.

That stain/spot was finally covered over with dirt after a week of so.
So I'd say it was not an ND but an AD, but what do I know.

and plus one on the Remora

[jocko]

only good deeds were every readof one with a firearm preventing a possable holdup or what ever seems to be in the American Rifleman, never on the media news. u see that would be detrimental to the anti gun people but let one incident like this Florida event and see how it grows wings real fast. Gun owners basicaly start with an elephant on their backs before te first shot isw ever fired.

I don't carry because I am scared, I carry because I am not scared!!

[Barth]

I think everybody here knows how I feel about carry.

Only draw to shoot.
Only shoot to kill.

I'm sure some altercations have been alleviated by simple display of a weapon.
But that's a problematic and dangerous practice in my book.

I'm going to do everything I can to defuse or escape the situation.
But when imminent inescapable danger strikes? So do I.

As for the aftermath?
To many variables.
If I feel safe at that point?
I'll re-holster the weapon and call 911.

Trigger finger on the frame, good holsters and lots of practice.
I feel totally safe and comfortable holstering a loaded weapon.

MK40 Elite & twin extended mags.
Loaded with Speer Duty GDHP .40 155 gr. (~1150 fps 450 E - 3" TB)
Left hand Blackhawk G27 holster and tactical dual mag pack.
I took some shears to to the bad boys and made them mine.
Use the holster cross draw OWB, inside SB1 Galco Belt.
Dual mag pack appendix carry.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo08/f6/ab/19c6204b5f8c__1332706631000.jpeg

[jocko]

I haver never drawn my PM9 out of my front pocket in my desantis holster in anger and when at the range etc, when I draw it out, I have no problem getting thegun out correctly and safely, but when I do reholster it back in my pocket, I pull my desantis out and insert the gun and then insert the complete package back in my pocket. Might sound stupid to many but again I really have never had to do that in public either. I just error on the side of caution in my case trying to shove my PM9 back into my desantis which is stillin my pocket and not stiff as a well drillers d-ck like an all leahter pocket holster might be to allow safer reinsertion.. My PM9 sits on the mantel in the desantis while home 24/7, Just sayin.

[flieger67]

Gliderguy - if you're concerned about shaky hands, maybe you'd be better off unloading the pistol and setting it aside until LEO's arrive, assuming that you are in a safe setting to do that.

But I agree with a previous response about indexing your trigger on the frame. Also, training and consistent practice are important too. Practice with snap caps and work your way up to live rounds slowly and safely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[ripley16]

The only guy I know who accidentally shot himself, did so while holstering his pistol. The frightening aspect of that particular event is the fact that he was also one of the best trained, experienced and most careful guys around. A lapse can occur.

I use mantras to remember not to do stupid things. For example; when I'm away from home, leaving my locked car in a lot, I will stand by the door, look at my keys and say outloud "the keys are in my hand". I do this for the obvious reason.

I do the same when I holster a pistol. I focus on the movement and I say "finger off".

I look and sound like an idiot, but I haven't locked my keys in my car (again :o ), and I haven't shot myself in the foot.

[chrish]

This is a great discussion, and as I read thru it, it really makes me glad of some of the choices I've made...particularly since quite a few of the issues/scenarios discussed I never never never thought of.


But I don't carry anything w/ a safety. Don't want anything to fumble with under stress or adrenaline dump. Since I have never and hope to never find myself in that situation, I have no idea how I will react and therefore removing as many variables as possible has been my course of action. With a revolver or a Kahr, I have neither a safety, or a short trigger pull to worry about.


I only carry in Kydex. Don't want to be fumbling with a floppy holster that might compress and require me to fumble to reholster. I occasionally pocket carry, but I think some of these discussions may remove that from my carry options. I don't really have a pocket carry pistol anyway, I just force it to work when necessary. But the suggestion to remove the pocket holster, reholster, and back to the pocket is simple yet genius. Never thought of it. Thanks Jocko!


I don't practice loaded. But I practice, practice, practice. But I'm gonna start reciting, finger off, Thanks ripley!

[Barth]

I don't practice loaded. But I practice, practice, practice. But I'm gonna start reciting, finger off, Thanks ripley!

Don't say it. DO IT.
I ALWAYS hold a handgun with my trigger finger indexed on the frame ALWAYS.
It's automatic - and needs to be.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

[ptoemmes]

HK developed the CDA/LEM fire control mechanism at the behest of the German Police, Wolfgang Dicke I believe, to as excerpted from a post on HK Pro.

"Accidental discharges happenend when police officers had to reholster quickly or under stress. They had DA/SA pistols and sometimes did not decock them under stress. So GdP wanted other weapons with the KISS principle in mind (keep it simple and straightforward). The less the police officer has to concentrate on the weapon, the more he can concentrate on the situation.

Dicke's main requirements:
A constant trigger pull weight from the first to the last shot, which allows a well-aimed first shot and makes accidental discharges very unlikely.
The officer should not have to decock the gun before reholstering, the gun should do it by itself.

In 1999 he met with HK engineers. Based on practical experience, he explained them the requirements. Six months later, HK told him proudly that they solved the problems. Dicke tested the prototype and thought it was good. The prototype was a P10 with a new trigger mechanism, which is now called CDA in Germany and LEM in USA.
"

CDA = Combat Defense Action.
LEM = Law Enforcement Modification.

I think the point is/was that a DA/SA or SAO fire control mechanism - or one that requires a re-enagement of the safety or a manual de-cocking action before (re)holstering - increases the chances of an AD especially when under stress (yes even the adrenal pumping stress after the fight is over).

The quote is specific to HK's standard DA/SA fired control mechanism and not about, say, 1911 actions.

I am curious about the thoughts of those who do/have carried 1911s in terms of methods used to ensure dating the pistol before (re)holstering.

I am not even THINKING about whether one fire control mechanism is better than another so don't you either. :D

Pete

PS
My other pistol is an HK45c with standard LEM and one of the "additional" safety steps recommended when (re)holstering is to place your thumb over the hammer so as to feel movement in case the trigger gets snagged. Obviously irrelevant for striker fired. I do like the finger behind the trigger technique though - for Kahr and maybe others. Will have to try it.

PPS
I read somewhere there is no re-hostering. Just holstering. I dunno...ain't for me to say.

[chrish]

Don't say it. DO IT.
I ALWAYS hold a handgun with my trigger finger indexed on the frame ALWAYS.
It's automatic - and needs to be.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

Yea, I already do, do it. I think that's not ripley's point either. I think he means he says it even when he does it. I'm sure people that have NDs say that all the time. But officer, I never put my finger on the trigger...it's automatic...really.

The point should also be made here, if you've just FIRED the gun, your finger isn't off the trigger yet, unless you are a Jedi. So you better be practicing more than just drawing, finger along the frame, reholster. You need to include engage/shoot, finger off, reholster in that sequence.

Yea, you can argue the point that if you draw, better be firing and reholstering is a moot point. But if I have to drop somebody, and the police aren't right there cuffing me for their own protection, I'm damn well going to reholster before they show up to I avoid any confusion. Don't want to be capped by a trigger happy rookie or a seasoned guy that thinks I'm a threat...either way I'm dead and that's not in my list of things to do on any given day.

[Bawanna]

I have a detective that follows Ripleys plan everytime he has a gun in his hand. He'll say to himself, this is a loaded gun, or this is an unloaded gun.

Does it alone or around others. At home he dry fire practices and does the same thing. Unloads and says this is an unloaded gun.

Just reinforces in his own mind that what he's done is actually done and he didn't miss anything. Whatever it takes to be safe.

[Barth]

I have a detective that follows Ripleys plan everytime he has a gun in his hand. He'll say to himself, this is a loaded gun, or this is an unloaded gun.

Does it alone or around others. At home he dry fire practices and does the same thing. Unloads and says this is an unloaded gun.

Just reinforces in his own mind that what he's done is actually done and he didn't miss anything. Whatever it takes to be safe.

I'm dyslexic, so playing those games means I'll get confused and shoot myself for sure - LOL!
It has to be muscle memory, totally automatic, without conscious thought to work for me. Like breathing.

I don't hit someone.
My fist strikes all by itself.
I know you don't get it.
But I'm sure I'll draw, shoot, holster and hardly remember much about details. Don't have time to think.

It has to be second nature (practice, practice, practice till it's like breathing)

Everything else about whatever makes things safe for you is great.

[Bill K]

I think everybody here knows how I feel about carry.

Only draw to shoot.
Only shoot to kill.

...



I hear you but may I suggest a perhaps subtle but important/PC change in the wording/thinking? You shoot to "...stop the action.". "Did you shoot to kill him?" "No, I shot him to stop him from stabbing me."

[Scoundrel]

I'm sure some altercations have been alleviated by simple display of a weapon.
But that's a problematic and dangerous practice in my book.

I'm going to do everything I can to defuse or escape the situation.


A friend of mine used to live in a place that is frequented by wandering homeless people. One evening he was walking down the block, and a homeless guy started following him. At first the homeless guy was asking for money, but when my friend did not respond, the homeless guy started shouting obscenities and gesticulating. My friend suspects he was drunk or drugged out.

At that point my friend stopped, swept his jacket out of the way with his shooting hand, and placed that hand firmly on the grip of his pistol, which was now in plain view.

The homeless guy immediately backed off and started walking away, saying something like "Chill out, man, I wasn't gonna do nothin'..."


Should my friend have done otherwise?
The homeless guy seemed to be working his way up to something. Continuing to walk might have allowed the escalation to continue. Breaking into a run might have triggered some other unpredictable situation, and/or impaired his ability to defend himself.


So, problematic, dangerous, or otherwise, it was effective, and I think it was the right thing to do.
Would it work in every case? Obviously not. But that's why we have this thing called "judgement" in our tool belt.

[Barth]

I hear you but may I suggest a perhaps subtle but important/PC change in the wording/thinking? You shoot to "...stop the action.". "Did you shoot to kill him?" "No, I shot him to stop him from stabbing me."

The words I will use are -
"I was in fear for my life and couldn't escape.
I would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions".

And you know very well what I meant by that phrase.

[Gliderguy]

Tilos, Ripley, Ptoemmes, Hylton, and Bawanna: You guys are bringing up the exact kind of real life events I was trying to uncover with this post.

My core business is aviation.

We have found with new pilots the "danger zone" is after they have 200-300 hours of trouble free experience and think they have this flying thing all figured out. Those overly redundant checklists and go/no go decision making become suddenly so sophmoric. Thats when aircraft start getting bent and people hauled off to the morgue.

Gun People have to confront a bit of machismo from a small slice of the military and LEO crowd, "Hey, I have had training on this, LISTEN TO ME AND DO AS I SAY AND NOT AS I DO" mentality.

Just go see the video about the CCW instructor that pops a cap in his foot after saying essentially just that.

I am pleased that those who thus far have suggested caution didn't do it from a high horse and decide maybe if I spend my time thinking about things like this I shouldn't be armed.

Flieger, I am not sure if you happen to be a hunter, but most people who take their first big game animal get some form of the shakes. I had been hunting small game for years and the act of taking my first deer affected me beyond anything I expected. 2nd, 3rd, 10th, not so much. I would have had no business trying to get a handgun into a holster for about 10 minutes after the event if I had been using one (rifle hunt). I suspect taking a human life that was threatening you with bodily harm has to be a level of magnitude more intense than what I experienced.

I am sure all the experienced LEO's out there can tell a rookie story on themselves or a colleague about adrenaline overdose.

What is it the military people say, You just don't know how you will react until you are put in the situation, or something like that.

Great discussion thus far, and I appreciate ALL comments we have had.

[Barth]

A friend of mine used to live in a place that is frequented by wandering homeless people. One evening he was walking down the block, and a homeless guy started following him. At first the homeless guy was asking for money, but when my friend did not respond, the homeless guy started shouting obscenities and gesticulating. My friend suspects he was drunk or drugged out.

At that point my friend stopped, swept his jacket out of the way with his shooting hand, and placed that hand firmly on the grip of his pistol, which was now in plain view.

The homeless guy immediately backed off and started walking away, saying something like "Chill out, man, I wasn't gonna do nothin'..."


Should my friend have done otherwise?
The homeless guy seemed to be working his way up to something. Continuing to walk might have allowed the escalation to continue. Breaking into a run might have triggered some other unpredictable situation, and/or impaired his ability to defend himself.


So, problematic, dangerous, or otherwise, it was effective, and I think it was the right thing to do.
Would it work in every case? Obviously not. But that's why we have this thing called "judgement" in our tool belt.

Absolutely.
I believe display of a firearm is a felony in most places.
Brandishing a weapon or something like that.

You should use a strong authoritative voice and hand gestures ordering the
individual to not advance and make a careful retreat at the same time.
At the very least.

You can also put you hands in a pocket.
Or some other motion that indicates
you may have a weapon without displaying it.

I've had to deal with drunks, homeless, attempted muggings.
Haven't had to display a weapon yet.

[Bill K]

The words I will use are -
"I was in fear for my life and couldn't escape.
I would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions".

And you know very well what I meant by that phrase.

Been there and that is essentially what I said. Was just responding to what you wrote about shooting to kill.

[Scoundrel]

Absolutely.
I believe display of a firearm is a felony in most places.
Brandishing a weapon or something like that.

You should use a strong authoritative voice and hand gestures ordering the
individual to not advance and make a careful retreat at the same time.
At the very least.

You can also put you hands in a pocket.
Or some other motion that indicates
you may have a weapon without displaying it.

I've had to deal with drunks, homeless, attempted muggings.
Haven't had to display a weapon yet.

Well, fortunately, the homeless guy didn't have a good lawyer.

[Barth]

T
I am sure all the experienced LEO's out there can tell a rookie story on themselves or a colleague about adrenaline overdose.

What is it the military people say, You just don't know how you will react until you are put in the situation, or something like that.



I think having the right mindset is as important as physical ability.
Points that folks sometimes don't think about are -
1) Are you really willing to take someone's life?
2) What is it like shooting a firearm in self defense with tunnel vision,
hands shaking and heart racing?
3) What is it like shooting from disadvantaged positions.

We used to run, do push ups and quickly to draw and engage targets.
Shoot left and right handed.
Seated, standing, laying.
Loading with one hand.

Fun fun fun.
Everything can go wrong and I like the KISS method to survive.
Non of my seven guns have safeties.
They are all draw, aim and squeeze.

[Barth]

Well, fortunately, the homeless guy didn't have a good lawyer.

If an officer witnessed that episode the homeless guy wouldn't need one.
But your buddy would.

[chrish]

The whole brandishing debate is a totally 'nother subject, but there is a fine fine line there based on the situtation. Brandishing is defined as display in a threatening manner. But in justified self-defense, you betcha I want the threat of force to maybe actual force. But where you were not a party to causing the altercation, unlikey a brandishing charge would be in order or persued.

BG out of nowhere and closes distance too quickly for you to draw, lays a punch or a knife inserted into your gut, and you are on the ground. You finally draw if you are lucky. Scumbag sees and immediately bolts. You think you'll be charged w/ brandishing? Probably not.

In those scenarios, and some where you have to shoot, you are gonna have to reholster.

The whole goal here is, as Barth mentioned, automatic. You need to practice for every outcome/possibility and make it automatic. I'm already automatic as best I know how and practice as much as possible, but I do have a job and a life and have to do other things like yardwork, day job, etc. Therefore, I'm happy to employ any new suggestion I find or someone else suggests that I find useful or beneficial to make me all the more automatic and cover my bases in every way possible. In the end, the point it to keep your self un-dead and out of jail. Well, not killed, I guess un-dead you'd be a zombie.

[chrish]

If an officer witnessed that episode the homeless guy wouldn't need one.
But your buddy would.

Don't necessarily agree w/ that.


In my state, brandishing follows the same language/lingo surrounding self defense. If you were afraid for your safety or anothers and you pull your weapon, its justified self defense...unless of course you were party to causing the altercation in the first place and made no attempt to escape or diffuse.

Not to say you don't have a different situation where you live, but all because you draw and don't kill someone doesn't mean you will be charged with brandishing.

[jocko]

how many here have been armed robbed???

[chrish]

how many here have been armed robbed???

I've been robbed 27 times, 16 under gun point, 2 with a finger in the pocket.

Um, ok, that's high...zero.

:)

[Scoundrel]

If an officer witnessed that episode the homeless guy wouldn't need one.
But your buddy would.

If an officer were around, it wouldn't have happened. But they're never around when we want them to be, are they?

Shoulda known better than to open my mouth. Everyone knows that on the internet, all scenarios are black and white, every situation is under control, and every keyboard jockey coulda done better.

[ripley16]

how many here have been armed robbed???

Yes. :(

[Barth]

Don't necessarily agree w/ that.


In my state, brandishing follows the same language/lingo surrounding self defense. If you were afraid for your safety or anothers and you pull your weapon, its justified self defense...unless of course you were party to causing the altercation in the first place and made no attempt to escape or diffuse.

Not to say you don't have a different situation where you live, but all because you draw and don't kill someone doesn't mean you will be charged with brandishing.

I was being literal about it.
But the situation has to be dire.
Not just threatening. And nothing had actually happend.
Dealing with potential threats before any real action has been taken against you, or any crime whatsoever commited?

That's a slippery slope my friend....

Plus someone hits you a couple times.
That's not life threatening or maiming.
Assault and battery? Yes, but it's not just self defense.
It has to be life threatening or maiming or in commission of a formidable felony right?

I though he might do something or he had shifty eyes doesn't cut it.
Especially when all other not weapon related options haven't been taken.

Getting beat up isn't justification for lethal force.
You just don't know what a jury is going to do.

[Dmitri]

when I do reholster it back in my pocket, I pull my desantis out and insert the gun and then insert the complete package back in my pocket. Might sound stupid to many...
That's on the complete opposite side of "stupid" -- that's THE way to handle pocket carry IMHO, always. I couldn't possibly care less about what someone else might think about me not looking "cool enough" or whatever... That's at the VERY bottom of my list of concerns. :rolleyes: Prevention of ND is near the very top of that list.

[chrish]

Yes, I'm not saying you draw everytime you see/feel the slightest bit uneasy about what's going on. I agree w/ what you (think it was you) saying about commanding voice, retreat as much as possible, potentially hand in pocket or push shirt back...prep yourself basically. I agree completely.

But I do disagree on the getting your ass kicked point you are making. I'm drawing and shooting, period. In my state, you are not forced to make such a stupid decision...meaning, is this guy that's attacking or getting ready to attack me big enough and bad enough to warrant killing him. Can I beat his rear just as badly w/ my fists? Not going to make that wager and I'm using whatever means I have available. Overwhelming force. If you don't live under laws that allow for that, I understand completely.

This is off topic, so I'm going to drop it. Sorry.

The question was, reholstering. And yea, I practice it as much as I practice other stuff...so as not to shoot my pinky toe off. Plenty of NDs have happened w/o a finger involved. Catch the trigger on something, whatever. I practice it.

[Barth]

Yes, I'm not saying you draw everytime you see/feel the slightest bit uneasy about what's going on. I agree w/ what you (think it was you) saying about commanding voice, retreat as much as possible, potentially hand in pocket or push shirt back...prep yourself basically. I agree completely.

But I do disagree on the getting your ass kicked point you are making. I'm drawing and shooting, period. In my state, you are not forced to make such a stupid decision...meaning, is this guy that's attacking or getting ready to attack me big enough and bad enough to warrant killing him. Can I beat his rear just as badly w/ my fists? Not going to make that wager and I'm using whatever means I have available. Overwhelming force. If you don't live under laws that allow for that, I understand completely.

This is off topic, so I'm going to drop it. Sorry.

The question was, reholstering. And yea, I practice it as much as I practice other stuff...so as not to shoot my pinky toe off. Plenty of NDs have happened w/o a finger involved. Catch the trigger on something, whatever. I practice it.

Unfortunately that's my understanding here in Florida.
I'm not saying I agree with it.
And I get what you're saying too.

To be honest, I'm vary concerned about any altercation while I'm armed.
How can I know in advance that I will not be incapacitated, disarmed and my weapon used against me?

As for holstering, pocket carry, I hadn't thought about it.
But I always holster the gun out of the pocket and put both in my pocket.
I'll pull the holster out with the gun in it for moving to a glove box or whatever.
All my guns are double action without safeties used with good holsters that cover the trigger.

[chrish]

Unfortunately that's my understanding here in Florida.
I'm not saying I agree with it.
And I get what you're saying too.

To be honest, I'm vary concerned about any altercation while I'm armed.
How can I know in advance that I will not be incapacitated, disarmed and my weapon used against me?


Yep, not familiar w/ FL, I'm in VA. We don't have Castle, all case law based here, but the spirit of Castle-ish case law exists and that's how we roll here. And most case law seems to agree that you don't/shouldn't have to make that level of a decision when you are under threat of bodily harm or death. YMMV in Florida, but you might want to ask around and see if that's the case. And I don't say that lightly in that it should give you carte-blanche to go cowboying off gun-a-brandishing to scare off evil doers :D

We (VA) may be more 'codified' in the future. There is currently a push toward official Castle here. Not sure how I feel about that.

[chrish]

I'm curious about this topic of reholstering (and unholstering) for folks that carry TUCKED iwb. Does that concern you? Do you carry tucked often?

I ordered a tuck thingy w/ my Comp Tac Infidel but only tried it once and hated it. For two reasons. Reholstering was less of an issue, but a hassle. But drawing was a PIA and scared the dickens out of me in case I had to draw. I know practice, but having to fuddle around w/ tucked shirt + tshirt was a royal mess. I could just see myself getting all tangled up when the rubber met the road. Reholstering, just more in the way to potentially hang up.

[Gliderguy]

I saw this thread: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10107 and immediately ordered this holster and an instructor belt just so I would have the option to go IWB / OWB tucked or not. Great holster, comfortable and have only had it a couple of days still breaking it in. about 4:00 to 4:30 is perfect, will work at 3:00 but squeaks a bit too much there when you walk. In a way, this rig is the reason for this whole thread, as it is difficult to remove the holster in anything resembling a discreet manner - thus the need for occasional drawing and holstering throughout the day as I go to and leave places that I am not supposed to carry. Since it can be totally independent of your dress belt, having its own separate support, it opens up whole new worlds of ways to foul a trigger on your BVD's or clothes you didn't even know you were wearing.

[OldLincoln]

>> Is re-holstering a loaded weapon the single most dangerous thing you can do? <<

Oh hell no! Having a gun in your hand when the cops arrive with a dude laid out with blood all around is MUCH more dangerous!!!! They will pull on you and have you wetting your pants in a nano-second! You are automatically by definition the bad guy when holding a gun.

Conversely, if it's holstered you can keep you hands in the open, tell them you were assaulted and defended yourself. That you have a CCW and have been trained, and your gun is holstered at 3:00. They will take your gun (which you will likely never see again) and your report. The big thing is YOU set the tone by proving you are not a threat to them.

Other stuff that is more dangerous? Lowering the hammer on a chambered gun without a decooker; pocketing a chambered double action without a holster and no safety, mexican carry of same; not verifying the empty chamber when unloading; toying with you loaded gun when bored; cleaning your gun after having a few drinks; and about 100 more.

Every time I change pants or holsters, load my gun, etc., I re-holster it and do not see that as any threat at all.

[Tilos]

I had been hunting small game for years and the act of taking my first deer affected me beyond anything I expected. 2nd, 3rd, 10th, not so much. I would have had no business trying to get a handgun into a holster for about 10 minutes after the event if I had been using one (rifle hunt). I suspect taking a human life that was threatening you with bodily harm has to be a level of magnitude more intense than what I experienced.

And the reason I like to compete in handgun "games".
NOT games where you have to re-holster BEFORE moving to engage another target within the same stage.

All your practice turns into a ten thumb fumble, when the RO says stand by and the timer goes off.
With 10-12 people watching as you draw, fire, reload, move, etc., it's the most stress affect I know how to add to my shooting.
And as an RO once told me: the timer stops with your last shot...no need to re-holster quickly.
When you are done with a stage you clear, show clear, and then holster your gun.
I've seen some pretty stupid, quite humbling stuff by new shooters who never practiced or competed before, with most attributed to "buck fever".
It's something eveyone should try, for the training.

In a shooting situation where I had fired MY gun and things were over. I might clear my gun and put it somewhere safe and not re-holster it.
I might even put it on the ground and just stand on it, rather than have to explain a holstered gun to the 1st LO who shows up.
And would say, "I shot because....and my gun is right here under my foot, I'm standing on it."
just sayin'
Tilos

[TriggerMan]

Don't necessarily agree w/ that.


In my state, brandishing follows the same language/lingo surrounding self defense. If you were afraid for your safety or anothers and you pull your weapon, its justified self defense...unless of course you were party to causing the altercation in the first place and made no attempt to escape or diffuse.

Not to say you don't have a different situation where you live, but all because you draw and don't kill someone doesn't mean you will be charged with brandishing.
Several years ago, my shooting instructor was harrassed at the DMV (Sec't'y of State) . To difuse the situation he left. His antagonist followed him out to the parking lot, continued yelling obscenities and eventually grabbed a 2x4 from a construction site he passed, and moved to attack with it. My instructor drew on him but did not fire. HE called 9-1-1 and was arrested and charged with Aggravated Assault, Brandishing, and Terroristic Threats. Many hours later, thanks to witnesses and a great lawyer , he was released. The rules Cops use don't favor CCW permit holders.

[tv_racin_fan]

The words I will use are -
"I was in fear for my life and couldn't escape.
I would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions".

And you know very well what I meant by that phrase.

I know very well what you meant, and, now, so does any court you may happen to face. You should have said what you meant and if what you actually texted is what you meant then so be it. It is probably to late to change it anyway.

[CJB]

Thinking long and hard on "the single most dangerous thing you can do".

Probably being single, and going to Vegas with a paranoid schizophrenic drop dead gorgeous blonde alcoholic is the single most dangerous thing you can do.

Reholstering your weapon... down the list about 55 notches.

[Gliderguy]

Actually, I think the single most dangerous thing any of us can and did do is be born. (re-holster THAT before it has a ND!:behindsofa:)
Thus far, except for one case millennia ago that seems to be unproveable by design, being born has a 100% of eventually being fatal. Sometimes the fatalities come in the strangest and most original ways.

Maybe a better title would have been "what is the most dangerous thing you don't know that you do?"

Maybe my next topic will be "do you know what your muzzle is doing RIGHT NOW?" which sometimes concerns me when pocket carrying and sitting down in a restaurant setting.

[BOBBO268]

Thinking long and hard on "the single most dangerous thing you can do".

Probably being single, and going to Vegas with a paranoid schizophrenic drop dead gorgeous blonde alcoholic is the single most dangerous thing you can do.

Reholstering your weapon... down the list about 55 notches.

oh, do tell... :popcorn:

[Husky44]

I carry my compact IWB or pocket. If it's a pocket holster, it is holstered before it goes in the pocket; if it is unholstered, the holster comes back out to reholster, then gets placed back in the pocket, much like Jocko described.

When carrying IWB, I put the holster on first, then remove the gun from the pocket holster (how I store it when not wearing it). I holster loaded every morning. I sweep the area to ensure all clothing's out of the way, every time. Same with my OWB for my full size.

When carrying IWB, I always throw the pocket holster in my truck, so if I need to remove the gun during the day I have a safe way to store it in my truck with the trigger fully enclosed.

I don't think it's overly dangerous, so long as you're very deliberate about your holstering process, which, as some others have implied, creates muscle memory that keeps you safe in the high-stress scenarios.

[Barth]

Several years ago, my shooting instructor was harrassed at the DMV (Sec't'y of State) . To difuse the situation he left. His antagonist followed him out to the parking lot, continued yelling obscenities and eventually grabbed a 2x4 from a construction site he passed, and moved to attack with it. My instructor drew on him but did not fire. HE called 9-1-1 and was arrested and charged with Aggravated Assault, Brandishing, and Terroristic Threats. Many hours later, thanks to witnesses and a great lawyer , he was released. The rules Cops use don't favor CCW permit holders.

Thanks for sharing.
That's an example of my point exactly.
The laws in most places really don't favor us.

I really don't mean to be argumentative.
And If I come off curt and abrasive it's unintentional.
These are important issues that I have strong feelings about.

[flieger67]

My core business is aviation.

We have found with new pilots the "danger zone" is after they have 200-300 hours of trouble free experience and think they have this flying thing all figured out. Those overly redundant checklists and go/no go decision making become suddenly so sophmoric. Thats when aircraft start getting bent and people hauled off to the morgue.

Aviation is also my vocation. I was an aeronautical engineer for about 11 years and have been a professional pilot for more than 11 years since leaving the engineering field. So I do understand the importance of SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures), checklists, practice etc. in what can be a stressful and challenging environment.



Flieger, I am not sure if you happen to be a hunter, but most people who take their first big game animal get some form of the shakes. I had been hunting small game for years and the act of taking my first deer affected me beyond anything I expected. 2nd, 3rd, 10th, not so much. I would have had no business trying to get a handgun into a holster for about 10 minutes after the event if I had been using one (rifle hunt). I suspect taking a human life that was threatening you with bodily harm has to be a level of magnitude more intense than what I experienced.


Not a hunter though I've been looking forward to getting into bowhunting. But I do understand adrenalin dumps in stressful situations and have several stories that I could share.

I would still think that, depending on the situation, unloading the weapon and setting it aside after a DCI (Dynamic Critical Incident) may be the best option. It's almost a certainty that law enforcement will want to see it. If that's not a possibility, then training and practice would be beneficial with re-holstering a loaded weapon. And if that's still not comfortable to someone, unload the weapon, re-holster it unloaded and if necessary, load it again at a later time when that person is more comfortable and relaxed.

[Gliderguy]

I wonder which requires less fine motor skill, unloading a semi-auto pistol or holstering in a IWB untucked? My gut reaction is the dexterity required for these two actions would be a draw (pun observed and not punted).

Just because I can have NO control over what might happen next I would prefer to have the gun back in the holster if I am capable of safely putting it there. I might have to flee a zombie horde or something on very short notice and would prefer not to be running down the street with it in hand.

@ Husky44, I bougjt an inexpensive KNJ ambi holster size 2 (about $10, fits the PM40 pretty good, just a tad snug, probably perfrct for a PM9) for vehicle duty when i need to take it out of the IWB.

[Barth]

I know very well what you meant, and, now, so does any court you may happen to face. You should have said what you meant and if what you actually texted is what you meant then so be it. It is probably to late to change it anyway.

The phrase "shoot to kill", in the context of self defense shooting,
means shooting for center mass.
Not just attempting to wound with a shot to the leg or arm.

It does not mean literally - "I want to end this individuals life".

I was very clear about the legal verbiage I would use following an altercation.

The words I will use are -
"I was in fear for my life and couldn't escape.
I would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions".

[O'Dell]

Keep your finger off the trigger and don't buy a Glock :rolleyes:

[Barth]

Keep your finger off the trigger and don't buy a Glock :rolleyes:

Come on man... LOL

You know I carry a Glock - sad now

[JFootin]

Come on man... LOL

You know I carry a Glock - sad now

Barth, you know O'Dell has a rabid dislike for Glocks. You ought to be used to that by now. :9:

[Barth]

Barth, you know O'Dell has a rabid dislike for Glocks. You ought to be used to that by now. :9:

Yup,
He's said "Everybody knows how I feel about Glocks"
And then kindly doesn't elaborate - LOL!

I know.

We don't all agree on everything here, but this is still a great place to be!

[houdini]

make sure you put on the safety

[Bawanna]

make sure you put on the safety

I figured for sure you'd say it was much less dangerous than getting out of that straight jacket upside down in the water tank.

How did you do that anyhow? Maybe I got the wrong houdini?

[Scoundrel]

I have a very good safety system for Glocks:

I am not going to buy one!

:behindsofa:

[Bawanna]

Guy I went to school with, would have to use the term friend extremely loosely stopped by yesterday and ruined my day.

Anyhow in chatting with hime and him wanting to impress me that he carries a gun all the time, (had a Glock 23 on his hip, I had a 1911 and a PM45 on that he never did become aware of), he mentioned that he doesn't carry with one in the chamber.
He very argumentative and disagrees just to disagree so I just said good idea.

[O'Dell]

Yup,
He's said "Everybody knows how I feel about Glocks"
And then kindly doesn't elaborate - LOL!

I know.

We don't all agree on everything here, but this is still a great place to be!

Okay, here's the elaboration: 1] except for the 36, the grip is too thick for my hands -it doesn't feel secure. 2] They don't point well for me - the grip angle has me shooting high unless I hold my wrist at an odd angle. 3] I don't care for the trigger. 4] I can't shoot them worth a darn.

Jocko said I should explain for the newbies, but I thought you'd had heard it before. I don't have an unreasonable dislike for them - they just don't fit me.

[Scoundrel]

I guess that's one benefit I gain from my patchy/incomplete school background. I don't have any "old school friends" that might want to look me up. Or any old school bullies who have converted to born again Christians and want to be my friend on Facebook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmjZTHX8EKg).

There was ONE guy that would fall into that category (old school friends that might look me up), but he's been dead for many years, so I guess that's not gonna happen.

He might have been a Glock sort of guy, now that I think about it. And, he might have shot himself in the foot re-holstering it, if he hadn't stepped in front of a speeding van in West Seattle.

[Bawanna]

That's nearly the saddest story I've heard this morning. This is one school mate I could certainly do without. Only visits a couple times a year but always at the most inopportune time. I still have a huge headache just thinking about it.

Maybe I should take him down to West Seattle and window shop.

[chrish]

+1 on O'Dell's reasoning for me as well. I won't ever own one because of 1 and 2. I could live w/ the trigger, but 1 and 2 create situation 4 for me...don't shoot them well because they feel insecure in my hand. i always feel like it's going to just jump out of my hand and fly backward over my head. obviously exaggerating, they never have gone flying, but the lack of confidence i have in myself using one keeps me from owning one.

[Barth]

Okay, here's the elaboration: 1] except for the 36, the grip is too thick for my hands -it doesn't feel secure. 2] They don't point well for me - the grip angle has me shooting high unless I hold my wrist at an odd angle. 3] I don't care for the trigger. 4] I can't shoot them worth a darn.

Jocko said I should explain for the newbies, but I thought you'd had heard it before. I don't have an unreasonable dislike for them - they just don't fit me.

I should have known Jocko might exaggerate and stir things up – LOL!

I totally get the ergonomics thingy.
Personally can’t shoot Beretta or H&K worth a darn.
The only gun I ever bought without shooting first was a H&K USP 45 compact.
I shot it twice and sold it as fast I could.
I will not own either one.

They are both fine weapons, but not in my hands.

The late Gen 3 and new Gen 4 Glocks seem to be having issues too.
Particularly the 9mm guns.
I wouldn't recommend anyone get one.

[O'Dell]

I should have known Jocko might exaggerate and stir things up – LOL!

I totally get the ergonomics thingy.
Personally can’t shoot Beretta or H&K worth a darn.
The only gun I ever bought without shooting first was a H&K USP 45 compact.
I shot it twice and sold it as fast I could.
I will not own either one.

They are both fine weapons, but not in my hands.

The late Gen 3 and new Gen 4 Glocks seem to be having issues too.
Particularly the 9mm guns.
I wouldn't recommend anyone get one.

I guess we're put together differently. I have short stubby fingers and big feet - never could figure that one out. I had a stainless USP 45 Compact before it was stolen, and still have a USP 40 and HK45C. All shoot great for me. In fact the 40 is my go-to HD weapon. I haven't tried a Beretta in so long, I don't remember how they shoot for me. I just remember that they were BIG.

[jocko]

I would never TRY TO STIR THINGS UP. Have I ever done that? Please dont reply to that comment. Bawanna tells me all the time I stir sh-t. I am a newbie O'Dell, so I was asking for myself. Urhands must be little. I have somethinbg on my body that is little to, but I can't elaborate about it. I can tell u on a cold ass day it literally dissappears.

[Tinman507]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0YHCQd6el9E/TXZNJNYabRI/AAAAAAAAASA/pkbEkgHg7mw/s400/Pot%2BStir.jpg

[JFootin]

I have somethinbg on my body that is little to, but I can't elaborate about it. I can tell u on a cold ass day it literally dissappears.

Do you ever wonder if it is coverting from an outy to an inny? :eek:

[Scoundrel]

This may help you re-holster your weapon...

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10856471-miss-universe-canada-organizers-boot-transgender-contestant

[Gliderguy]

As my unborn grandkids might find and read this post someday, I will withold any comment. But Boy! are there some opportunities for real zingers on that one, Scoundrel.

[Bawanna]

I'm gonna be way more careful in my profiling in the future. I did now see that one a coming.

Be fun to take that to the airport and see if the computer selects that, it, she, he, for extra attention, searching and such.

[Gliderguy]

Wow, over 1000 views in less than 48 hours. Will see if I can find some other topics that burn up the board like this one has!

[Scoundrel]

I wonder if this guy already has all the kids he needs:

http://www.andrewsleather.com/carjackerx.htm

http://www.andrewsleather.com/carjackerx_c.jpg

[tv_racin_fan]

I wonder if this guy already has all the kids he needs:

http://www.andrewsleather.com/carjackerx.htm

http://www.andrewsleather.com/carjackerx_c.jpg

Why would it matter? Doesn't appear to be pointing that handgun at himself to me. I would love to have one of those for the van.

[tv_racin_fan]

The phrase "shoot to kill", in the context of self defense shooting,
means shooting for center mass.
Not just attempting to wound with a shot to the leg or arm.

It does not mean literally - "I want to end this individuals life".

I was very clear about the legal verbiage I would use following an altercation.

The words I will use are -
"I was in fear for my life and couldn't escape.
I would like to have an attorney present before I answer any more questions".

Right, you can think that if you like sir. I am not willing to bet that the jury will understand what I meant if I say that. I shoot to stop the one who is out to do me and mine harm.

I aim for center mass even on silly video games that I know that tactic may well get me killed. I ***** about it on Team Speak when I shot the guy twice center mass and he shot me once in the head and I lost the fight BUT I keep on aimin at center mass.

[JustinN]

Why would it matter? Doesn't appear to be pointing that handgun at himself to me. I would love to have one of those for the van.

I think they're referring to the bad habit of having his finger on the trigger while drawing or reholstering, whichever he is doing, which can lead to a ND.

[Barth]

Right, you can think that if you like sir. I am not willing to bet that the jury will understand what I meant if I say that. I shoot to stop the one who is out to do me and mine harm.

I aim for center mass even on silly video games that I know that tactic may well get me killed. I ***** about it on Team Speak when I shot the guy twice center mass and he shot me once in the head and I lost the fight BUT I keep on aimin at center mass.

LMFAO, you’re pretty funny.
Do you have a stand up somewhere so I can catch the rest of the show?

Thanks for your expert legal advice Mr. Mason – LOL!
http://images.zap2it.com/images/tv-EP00003343/perry-mason-raymond-burr-1.jpg

[Bawanna]

First fella to call me Ironside, well I'm just gonna go off. What could be worse than a bottom feeding derelict lawyer. Money might be good though.

[Tilos]

I'll be climbing into my drift boat before clicking on this thread again:D

[MW surveyor]

First fella to call me Ironside, well I'm just gonna go off. What could be worse than a bottom feeding derelict lawyer. Money might be good though.

3, 2, 1 :behindsofa:

What thread drift?

[DKD]

I know the holster maker of that rig, I have two of this type and they are the most comfortable rig around while seated at a desk or in your vehicle. He calls it the car jacker model. Its by Anderson Leather out of North Florida...easy to find on the web and be builds very high quality hosters.
This rig is quite safe as the business end is pointed away from you and it is vertually impossible for you to sweep yourself when drawing unless your a moron and turn your wrist 90 degrees to the left if your a righty.

[tv_racin_fan]

I think they're referring to the bad habit of having his finger on the trigger while drawing or reholstering, whichever he is doing, which can lead to a ND.

Good catch.. I believed it was in reference to the appearance that he is pointing that thing at his crotch... thus the kids bit.

[Scoundrel]

A bit of both, really. I admit that upon closer inspection, a bullet leaving the barrel of that gun wouldn't get him in the delivery vehicle, but it just might be enough to make the family jewels retreat and hide for a while.

[U.S. Patriot]

1. Use a quality holster
2. Keep your damn finger outside the trigger guard.

People get complacent, that's when bad **** happens.