Why do people like +P ammo?

[jg rider]

Yes, why do people like the +P stuff over the standard velocity stuff in light concealed carry guns?

We live in a mild winter climate, so multi layers of clothing is rare. So for us IMHO +P ammo is over kill. I can't speak for other locations.

The biggest concern for us is controlled follow up shots. My biggest fear is if we have to draw and fire, no bystander gets hit. Using an IPSC target or a 6" steel plate, from a beep we can usually draw and fire from concealed carry in l.5 seconds, and hit C.O.M. from 10 yrds, with a +P round. The concern is what happens after that first shot.

As former IPSC competitors we know about shooting double taps and multiple targets with major power .45acp loads out of heavy 1911s and we know our split times. I seem to remember they were about .18 seconds

But for concealed carry we carry either lighter PM9s or K9s, and we practice double and triple taps.

We ran some tests with standard velocity and +P ammo to see how long it took to do follow up shots without spraying and praying. We used a Pact timer to time our splits between shots, after finding our front sight, and having fast accurate double and triple tap hits.

The times for us between +P and standard ammo was like night and day, out of the PM9s and almost as bad out of the K9s. We decided on fast, controlled, accurate hits over slow controlled hits. Oh don't forget about the adrenalin rush.

We did some ballistic testing some years back and here's the results

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11851

LET THE BASHING BEGIN !

[tv_racin_fan]

Seems that some people are looking at the numbers and want the extra velocity they believe they get with +p rounds in short barreled handguns.

I have some 147 grain and some 124 grain HST rounds and am satisfied they will do the job I ask of them tho I do need to do some testing to see which ones my handguns prefer and then run with that.

[jg rider]

Seems that some people are looking at the numbers and want the extra velocity they believe they get with +p rounds in short barreled handguns.

I have some 147 grain and some 124 grain HST rounds and am satisfied they will do the job I ask of them tho I do need to do some testing to see which ones my handguns prefer and then run with that.

What we found was the 124s had a sharp snap compared to slower felt recoil pulse of the 147.

Did you see our results?

[Bawanna]

Personal opinion forthcoming. I've never used +P in anything. In my mind a hot rod round is just more abuse on a gun and I love my guns.

Course I carry 45 and nothing but 45. If you want to go faster get a bigger bike.

I firmly believe that even standard pressure 380 will ruin your day in a big way if you get hit with one. Long enough that if need be I can relocate to another location.

I used to hot rod loads for 44, 30-30, to play with years ago, not so much anymore.

[Chuck54]

I like +P's because they are louder and more manly.

:D


:cool:


:eek:

[OldLincoln]

I like to get all i can from my defensive ammo. If i were installing a security door i'd get a good one although a cbeaper model might do. Why buy a better gun or carry spare mags? You want the best for defence and +P is best.

[jocko]

Personal opinion forthcoming. I've never used +P in anything. In my mind a hot rod round is just more abuse on a gun and I love my guns.

Course I carry 45 and nothing but 45. If you want to go faster get a bigger bike.

I firmly believe that even standard pressure 380 will ruin your day in a big way if you get hit with one. Long enough that if need be I can relocate to another location.

I used to hot rod loads for 44, 30-30, to play with years ago, not so much anymore.

45comingout of a brrel::: putt putt putt putt putt. +P45 coming out of a barrel. putt putt putt putt:) Jusst sayin.

[Bill K]

Layered clothing is not rare here in New England.

In the ballistics testing I've looked at on YouTube it looked to me that +P has been the constantly good performer compared to other 9mm loads.

I don't think you need be concerned about being bashed for you choice of ammo, particularly on this forum.

[Bawanna]

45comingout of a brrel::: putt putt putt putt putt. +P45 coming out of a barrel. putt putt putt putt:) Jusst sayin.

Posterior hole!

[Barth]

I personally like my Self Defense bullets running super sonic speed for hydrostatic shock.

That velocity varies with temperature, humidity, altitude.
My rough guess is, here in Tampa Fl, it's ~1150 fps?

Ammo lots vary, so I like Speer GDHP 124 +P from a 4" barrel.
They advertise an average velocity of 1220 fps.
So I'm thinking a slow bullet in the rain should still produce super sonic speed.

I try to shoot for ~1150 fps, or more, in all my guns.

Exceptions being;
My little 2" 38 isn't going there, but I still use +P.
And my 45 230 gr isn't super sonic either, but I'll live with that - LOL!
I have +Ps in 45. But it kicks hard and the old Sig P220 wasn't made for it.
So I run standard 230 gr Ranger Ts out of a 5.47" barrel.

[jocko]

Posterior hole!

putt putt putt putt putt, dribble dribble dribble putt putt putt:yo::behindsofa:

[Tinman507]

Is that you after having Mexican for dinner?

[DKD]

Putt putt what the hell is that JOCKO? May be slow and on a rteally good day you may even see it coming...but you won't be able to get out of the way of that flying gabage can slug. So after the BG gets hit he'll be going Poop, Poop, Poop, Poop done anfd leaking hydralic fluids from rather large holes.
There is a reason the Special Forces & Seals carry the 45 ACP pistols....

[APSKahr]

I understand why they like it and if they can control it good for them. I use the 124gr +P Gold Dot in my defensive use Glocks because indications from people who are privy is that it's a good performer in law enforcement shootings. So when I got my CM9 the other week I figured I'd use it in that.

Well it is quite a bit harder to control than the 115gr Critical Defense and Federal 9BP. As you said, first shot is ok but in rapid fire my hands start to separate.

But I want to stick with a modern bullet that can be purchased economically enough to practice with it occasionally and the Gold Dots can be had in 50 round boxes. I am going to try the standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot. Because of recoil, the pistol already shoots a little high and I think a 147gr load will shoot even higher.

I had to file down the slide stop to get the Gold Dot to feed without locking the slide back.

[chrish]

You can like .45 all you want but it don't change the fact that those rounds can be smacked right out of the air with little more than a work glove on. I use a pair of rappel gloves, but I have delicate skin.

Seriously. I stick to stick to std load 147 to carry and practice. No +p, totally unnecessary Imo. Just makes alot of noise and hurts your hand. I shoot other non +p for plinking and general fun shooting.

[jocko]

I sh-t my buddy Bawanna over the 45 thing. It is a great caliber.It's his favorite that is for sure just never was any part of a favorite with me. Always been a 9mm fan, and will now stay that way, Some love the 40 cals to, just not for me in a kahr for sure. So when I jest about 45's it is just that, and it is mostly directed at Bawanna, whom I know I can do that with an get away with it

[jg rider]

As the O.P let me add this. I'm fortunate that at times I get to shoot with L.E. agencies, cities, county, state, and have watched the feds when they're at the range practicing, and as far as I know non of them use +P 9mm, .40 SW, or .45acp.

I like to think that carrying what they do will help in the event of a shooting. After all they are the experts :rolleyes:

When I carry a 45. I don't need +P rounds. for a bullet that starts out as .451" and opens up to almost 1.00" through clothing in standard velocity.
And when carrying a Kahr I don't need a +p for a 147gr. bullet that starts out as .355" and expands to almost .075" in my tests which equal L.E results.

Take a look at these ballistic results at different L.E. agencies put on by Federal.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

[Barth]

As the O.P let me add this. I'm fortunate that at times I get to shoot with L.E. agencies, cities, county, state, and have watched the feds when they're at the range practicing, and as far as I know non of them use +P 9mm, .40 SW, or .45acp.

I like to think that carrying what they do will help in the event of a shooting. After all they are the experts :rolleyes:

Take a look at these ballistic results at different L.E. agencies put on by Federal.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

I think if you double check 9mm most LE are actually carrying;
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
or
Federal HST 124 +P
in their duty weapons.

I've only heard of one agency that doesn't allow +P 9mm.
And it sounds like some of the officers are not happy.
They recently had issues with failure to penetrate with an indecent involving an auto.

NYPD, for instance, are issued 9mm as standard side arm and
run Speer GDHP 124 +P.

Although I believe most agencies issue 40 S&W.
And there is no SAAMI rating for +P in .40 S&W.
Some Feds issue 357 Sig and there is no SAAMI +P for that round either.

[jg rider]

I think if you double check 9mm most LE are actually carrying;
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
or
Federal HST 124 +P
in their duty weapons.

I've only heard of one agency that doesn't allow +P 9mm.
And it sounds like some of the officers are not happy.
They recently had issues with failure to penetrate with an indecent involving an auto.

NYPD, for instance, are issued 9mm as standard side arm and
run Speer GDHP 124 +P.

BTW There is no SAAMI rating for +P in .40 S&W.

I won't agree or disagree with you, but based on the ballistic results from the link I provided, most of these agencies don't use +P ammo. And really with what the Fed 147 HST can do I don't see any need for them as a civilian. AFAIK no agency in my state use +P . But I could be mistaken.

And for the NYPD using 124 +P G.D. and their 13# trigger pull, that's another story.

Here's some 9mm results in bare ballistic gelatin from there

-----------Weight------ Pen.------- exp.
ft. collins
---fed hst--- 147------- 13.25------ .821
----win------ 127 p----- 13.25------ .641
---speer gd-- 124 p------ 13.25------ .665

aurora
---fed hst---- 147-------- 12.25----- .830
---speer gd--- 124 p------ 13.25----- .665
---win-------- 124 p------ 11.00----- .610

l.a.ccounty
---fed hst----- 147-------- 13.50---- .771
----win-------- 147-------- 13.25---- .607
----win-------- 115-------- 9.50----- .552

riverside ca
----fed hst---- 147-------- 13.00----- .724
----speer gd--- 147-------- 13.25----- .570
-----win------- 147-------- 10.25----- .656

santa clara ca
----fed hst----- 147-------- 11.75----- .852
------win------- 147-------- 13.75----- .611

piece cnty. wash
----fed hst----- 147-------- 11.5------ .945
----fed HST----- 124------- 11.75----- .839
-----win-------- 127-------- 16.6------ .718

The last one which is the most extensive 9mm test was to long to copy. I will say that at one time Portland carried Glock .40s. But after some Ka-booms they went back to 9mm

[Barth]

I won't agree or disagree with you, but based on the ballistic results from the link I provided, most of these agencies don't use +P ammo.

Since most agencies issue 40, and there is no +P in 40 (SAAMI),
I would tend to agree - LOL!

[jg rider]

Since most agencies issue 40, and there is no +P in 40 (SAAMI),
I would tend to agree - LOL!

The city of Portland uses Glock17 147 HST 9mm. Two sheriff dept that I know allow choice of 9mm 147HST, .40, .45 230 HST or Win. RA45T (my source). As far as I know none of them use +Ps. But also the climate is mild here so people don't usually wear multi layers of clothing. Not like NYC

Here's a site that did some tests using sim-test ballistic gelatin on most popular standard or +P ammo

http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9?feature=watch

[Barth]

The city of Portland uses Glock17 147 HST 9mm. Two sheriff dept that I know allow choice of 9mm 147HST, .40, .45 230 HST or Win. RA45T (my source). As far as I know none of them use +Ps. But also the climate is mild here so people don't usually wear multi layers of clothing. Not like NYC

Here's a site that did some tests using sim-test ballistic gelatin on most popular standard or +P ammo

http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9?feature=watch

I'm at work and can't get to anything gun related but this site - LOL.
But I think the vast majority of all LE ammo contracts are with
Winchester, Federal and Speer.
If I remember correctly there is no +P in 147 gr 9mm from any of them?
P+ in 40 doesn't exist in any weight from anyone (SAAMI).
And 230 gr 45, as Jocko joked about, isn't going much faster +P anyway.
Although I think heard the LAPD has had pretty spectacular results with
230 gr +P Ranger Ts.

BTW I have some sort of old FBI protocol test results and am well aware
of ballistic performance of various ammunition.

The three 9mm rounds I specified earlier are pretty much accepted as the best of the best in 9mm SD ammo.
Not just in tests.
But from an actual track record on the street with use by Federal and State LE agencies.
They are:
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
and
Federal HST 124 +P

And they are all +P or +P+

Also, generally accepted as the very best 2" barrel 38 special ammo?
Developed by Speer for LE back up / off duty.
Speer GDHP Short Barrel 135 gr 38 +P.

So since I carry a 4" 9mm, and a 2" 38 snub nose, that's why I like +P ammo.

[Knight92]

I don't use the +p irrespective of ballistic tests for the simple fact I don't practice with it, so why would I want to have my life hang the balance of something I don't shoot as often, and in the middle of an adrenalin dump?

[jg rider]

I'm at work and can't get to anything gun related but this site - LOL.
But I think the vast majority of all LE ammo contracts are with
Winchester, Federal and Speer.
If I remember correctly there is no +P in 147 gr 9mm from any of them?
P+ in 40 doesn't exist in any weight from anyone (SAAMI).
And 230 gr 45, as Jocko joked about, isn't going much faster +P anyway.
Although I think heard the LAPD has had pretty spectacular results with
230 gr +P Ranger Ts.

BTW I have some sort of old FBI protocol test results and am well aware
of ballistic performance of various ammunition.

The three 9mm rounds I specified earlier are pretty much accepted as the best of the best in 9mm SD ammo.
Not just in tests.
But from an actual track record on the street with use by Federal and State LE agencies.
They are:
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
and
Federal HST 124 +P

And they are all +P or +P+

Also, generally accepted as the very best 2" barrel 38 special ammo?
Developed by Speer for LE back up / off duty.
Speer GDHP Short Barrel 135 gr 38 +P.

So since I carry a 4" 9mm, and a 2" 38 snub nose, that's why I like +P ammo.


Fed.HST, Speer GD, and others do make a 147+P

I'm also familiar with the FBI test protocols and standards that were initiated after the 1986 Miami shootings. In them it doesn't require +P ammo, just penetration being the main criteria, then expansion. All test were through different media, like wallboard, plywood, windshield, etc.

Since we started this debate over 9mm, I'll stay with that
The tests I provided above show professional test result done at 7 different L.E. facilities by ATK/Fed. and of the 7, only 2 locations tested +p ammo. And looking at the results, the standard 147 gr. did just as good or better than the +P stuff

As a civilian I'm only interested in two of the FBI protocols, penetration and expansion in bare and clothed gelatin.

I realize that there's lots of factors like bone & muscle etc. that effect a bullet's effectiveness. But shot placement will help with effectiveness. That's why we'll go with a round that is controllable for fast and accurate follow up double and triple tap shot placement. And will get the job done just as well as a round that may make your hands separate, cause muzzle flip and make you loose track of the front sight. I'm talking out of a lighter gun.

We practice 3 times a week, how often do practice multiple shots / hits with your +P ammo to feel proficient with it?

You mentioned the NYPD using 124 +P Speer GDs in a earlier post. I'm not impressed, in fact I think some of them shouldn't be allowed guns.
Look up innocent, unarmed Amadou Diallo shot at 41 times and only hit 19 times from a distance of about 15'. Or innocent bystander Denise Gay. There are other incidents.

As far as .38s, boy times have changed. most everybody thinks you have to have +P rounds in them.

I shoot a commercial soft shooting 125 gr. bullet out of a S&W 342 TI or a Mod 60 that I would bet my life on. I've posted pictures of it somewhere on this forum. Penetration may not be up to FBI standards, but I don't think anything out of a 2" or less barrel would. But expansion is great and 100% reliable.

Did you know back in the 80s we loaded 148gr. Hornady hollow base wad cutter with the cavity facing out, in front of a light 800 fps powder charge. In wet paks they opened from .358" to around .700"

That was the start of the hydra shok design. IIRC, about that time there was prison guard named Brenski (?) in upstate N.Y. that took that design and added a center post for better penetration. The original intent was for riot control. Many years later the design was sold to a ammo manufacturer before Fed.

[Mr. S]

Fed.HST, Speer GD, and others do make a 147+P


I know Federal does have the 147+P HST but Speer does not make a 147+P Gold Dot in 9mm.The Winchester Ranger T and bonded series are not available in 147+p 9mm either.

[jg rider]

I know Federal does have the 147+P HST but Speer does not make a 147+P Gold Dot in 9mm.The Winchester Ranger T and bonded series are not available in 147+p 9mm either.

Oops! Your right, and I knew that. Google search said Fed , Double Tap, Buffalo Bore. I believe Win has 127+P

[Barth]

I don't use the +p irrespective of ballistic tests for the simple fact I don't practice with it, so why would I want to have my life hang the balance of something I don't shoot as often, and in the middle of an adrenalin dump?

Good point and I totally agree.
That's why I practice with +P as well - LOL.

G27 with G23 4.02" Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel.
And Speer Duty GDHP 9mm 124 gr +P
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo40/cb/46/6e1b1ad08bb4__1330988741000.jpeg

[Barth]

Oops! Your right, and I knew that. Google search said Fed , Double Tap, Buffalo Bore. I believe Win has 127+P

No problemo
I read way too much about ammo anyway - LOL.

Truth is, with the best high tech ammo available these days,
the difference between them is really insignificant.
Speer GDHP, Winchester Ranger T-Series or Federal HST;
in any LE caliber, in any weight or pressure -
and you're in really good shape.

The real focus these days, IMHO, should be finding a round that functions
reliably in your weapon and that you are most proficient with.

Nice talking with you and have a great day!

[muggsy]

Yes, why do people like the +P stuff over the standard velocity stuff in light concealed carry guns?

We live in a mild winter climate, so multi layers of clothing is rare. So for us IMHO +P ammo is over kill. I can't speak for other locations.

The biggest concern for us is controlled follow up shots. My biggest fear is if we have to draw and fire, no bystander gets hit. Using an IPSC target or a 6" steel plate, from a beep we can usually draw and fire from concealed carry in l.5 seconds, and hit C.O.M. from 10 yrds, with a +P round. The concern is what happens after that first shot.

As former IPSC competitors we know about shooting double taps and multiple targets with major power .45acp loads out of heavy 1911s and we know our split times. I seem to remember they were about .18 seconds

But for concealed carry we carry either lighter PM9s or K9s, and we practice double and triple taps.

We ran some tests with standard velocity and +P ammo to see how long it took to do follow up shots without spraying and praying. We used a Pact timer to time our splits between shots, after finding our front sight, and having fast accurate double and triple tap hits.

The times for us between +P and standard ammo was like night and day, out of the PM9s and almost as bad out of the K9s. We decided on fast, controlled, accurate hits over slow controlled hits. Oh don't forget about the adrenalin rush.

We did some ballistic testing some years back and here's the results

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11851

LET THE BASHING BEGIN !

It comes from the uniquely American philosophy that if some is good, more is better. My philosophy is that you can't kill someone deader than dead. Two center mass and one to the head will usually kill anyone.

[jg rider]

Good point and I totally agree.
That's why I practice with +P as well - LOL.

G27 with G23 4.02" Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel.
And Speer Duty GDHP 124 gr +P
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo40/cb/46/6e1b1ad08bb4__1330988741000.jpeg

Nice shooting . I'm not familiar with the 40. Only time I shot one was out of a PM. But the wife has a Glock 17 for the house. I wonder if I can convert it to a . 40, using the the same slide and mags.

[wyntrout]

"And when carrying a Kahr I don't need a +p for a 147gr. bullet that starts out as .355" and expands to almost .075" in my tests which equal L.E results"

Dang! My bullets get wider when they EXPAND! :D

I like my 230-gr .45 standard-pressure Speer Gold Dots, but the short-barreled version for my PM45, BUT I usually carry my PM9 with the +P 124-Gr GD SB.

And for my P380... the BB +P 90-gr Gold Dots are the best performing SD loads... at least the highest muzzle energy.

Wynn:)

[jg rider]

"And when carrying a Kahr I don't need a +p for a 147gr. bullet that starts out as .355" and expands to almost .075" in my tests which equal L.E results"

Dang! My bullets get wider when they EXPAND! :D

I like my 230-gr .45 standard-pressure Speer Gold Dots, but the short-barreled version for my PM45, BUT I usually carry my PM9 with the +P 124-Gr GD SB.

And for my P380... the BB +P 90-gr Gold Dots are the best performing SD loads... at least the highest muzzle energy.

Wynn:)

Duh! I did say .075" :blushing: Would you believe it was a test? And you passed :rolleyes:

[wyntrout]

Just had to pull your leg.... It IS April 1st, too!

Wynn:)

[Barth]

Nice shooting . I'm not familiar with the 40. Only time I shot one was out of a PM. But the wife has a Glock 17 for the house. I wonder if I can convert it to a . 40, using the the same slide and mags.

Glock 40 cal guns can be converted to 9mm, or 357 Sig, with a barrel and mag change.
That's what I'm doing with my G27/40.
I can shoot three calibers.
Although I favor 9mm.
That's what I was shooting at the pictured target.

The 9mm Glock guns can't so easily be changed to other calibers.
I'm not positive, but think you have to change the entire top end and the trigger mechanism as well.
It's not worth it.

[wyntrout]

So, I'm guessing you have other guns as well, in the "unlikely" event that your multi-caliber gun frame gets damaged or broken... so that all of your "eggs" are not in "one basket"!

YANK! :behindsofa: :popcorn:

Wynn:D

[Barth]

So, I'm guessing you have other guns as well, in the "unlikely" event that your multi-caliber gun frame gets damaged or broken... so that all of your "eggs" are not in "one basket"!

YANK! :behindsofa: :popcorn:

Wynn:D

LOL you're on a roll now.
Yes, I have six other guns.
And yes, I have so many Glock parts now,
I think a second frame might be a fine idea - LOL!

[jg rider]

Glock 40 cal guns can be converted to 9mm, or 357 Sig, with a barrel and mag change.
That's what I'm doing with my G27/40.
I can shoot three calibers.
Although I favor 9mm.
That's what I was shooting at the pictured target.

The 9mm Glock guns can't so easily be changed to other calibers.
I'm not positive, but think you have to change the entire top end and the trigger mechanism as well.
It's not worth it.


Thanks

[Captain]

I don't understand the "I don't practice with +P, so I won't carry it in my carry gun". But I will switch out my 40 caliber barrel in my Glock for a 9mm because it's cheaper to shoot???? What's wrong with this picture?

Trigger time is trigger time. Whether you use full power +P loads or milder ball ammunition, it all goes towards building the necessary repetitions needed to work your defensive firearm without having to consciously think about it when in a bad situation.

+P ammunition performs way more consistently than standard presure ammo, even with all of the "newer technology" in bullet design. The amount of extra wear and tear on your firearm from using full power ammunition occasionally is negligible. I have a few guns that have over 50,000 rds thru them, mostly +P ammo and they all look and work great. Regular maintenance and periodic recoil spring changes go along way towards alleviating any isses of excessive wear. Enjoy your guns and pass them on to yout kids!

[APSKahr]

Great points Captain. Though I can feel the difference between +P and regular ammo during practice, the felt difference is much less under the stress of an IDPA match.
I shot some 124 gr +P Gold Dots and 147gr HST's this weekend and the difference between the 2 was there but very small. I would like to try some standard pressure 124 Gold Dot out of curiosity.
Out of my CM9 the 147gr HST averaged 248 ft-lbs of energy and the 124gr +P Gold Dot averaged 343 ft-lbs.

[muggsy]

I doubt seriously that anyone hit by a +P round would be able to discern any difference between it and a standard round. To take full advantage of a +P round you need a gun with a longer barrel than that of a pocket gun like the PM9. A small gain in performance is paid for with more muzzle flash, felt recoil, noise and a premium price. As usual, Bawanna has it right.

[jocko]

ur probsably right muggsy, but as u know if they made a +P+P+, someone would be wanting to buy it and shoot it. Oh the power of advertsing, and whatit tend sto dotoones wallet. Just sayin

No as usual about it Bawanna is always right, just ask him:blah::blah:

[chrish]

I am waiting for +Q or +R ... Or maybe some apple iAmmo.

But until then, I will stick with my 147gr pdx1

[Barth]

Great points Captain. Though I can feel the difference between +P and regular ammo during practice, the felt difference is much less under the stress of an IDPA match.
I shot some 124 gr +P Gold Dots and 147gr HST's this weekend and the difference between the 2 was there but very small. I would like to try some standard pressure 124 Gold Dot out of curiosity.
out of my CM9 the 147gr HST averaged 248 ft-lbs of energy and the 124gr +P Gold Dot averaged 343 ft-lbs.

I've shot a box of Federal HST 124 gr 9mm,
Speer GDHP 124 gr 9mm +P,
and Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 gr 9mm +P+
Out of a 4" barrel G27.
And the perceptible difference in recoil, to me, was insignificant.

Handguns are under-powered by nature.
Using the most powerful round you are proficient with just
increases your chances of survival.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo42/db/ce/d9443817ed40__1331588396000.jpg

[Manzanita]

Yes, why do people like the +P stuff over the standard velocity stuff in light concealed carry guns?

Like Nigel Tufnel's amp...

"These go to eleven."

[chrish]

Like Nigel Tufnel's amp...

"These go to eleven."

That's hysterical, good one!
:D

[Bawanna]

I'm ashamed to admit, I don't get it? Is this a hip hop thing? What's a Nigel Tufnel.

Some times it sucks to be dumb.

[Manzanita]

I'm ashamed to admit, I don't get it? Is this a hip hop thing? What's a Nigel Tufnel.

I'd post a YouTube link but I'm on my iPod in a university tv studio goofing off during lulls in production. If you go to YouTube and search for "these go to eleven", you'll find the Spinal Tap excerpt and all will be made clear.

[jg rider]

OK Men!

I just read all the posts and the theme seems to be "I like," "I shoot," "I don't," "I prefer," "for me it's," etc. :)
I started to have visions of our embarrassment and chief,:mad: "I, I, I, me, me, me." :cheer2:
Do any of you have wives or partners, etc, that carry or shoot, and may not be able to accurately control hot loads out of a small hand gun?

As the OP of this thread, I provided links to our test results and L.E. results of standard pressure ammo that show penetration and expansion to be as good as +p ammo, and meet FBI standards. I wanted results that followed some of the FBI criteria of first penetration and then expansion. Now as a civilian, the only results that mattered to me were penetration and expansion into clothing and torso.

Our results showed standard 147 Win. RA9T and Fed. 147 HST to be 100% penetration and expansion reliable, with the least felt recoil. And still met the FBI standards.

I used my wife as the test subject. Many years ago we competed in practical pistol matches at it's beginning with .45s. Back then the round needed to match the military power factor. So she's no stranger to recoil.
Her double taps between shot times were about .18 second with A zone hits at 7 yds. But that's with a heavy 1911 Govt. model.

When we were looking for a load for our lighter K9 or PM9 concealed carry guns, we tested +p ammo also, and she had trouble doing fast, controlled double an triple taps accurately, she had misses. She practices about 3x a week which is much more then most men do. And she was still having trouble.
When she decided on the 147 gr. Win. and Fed. stuff, things got different. She now does .21- .31 sec. double tap shot splits at 8" steel plates from 7 yds. And under 5 sec. at 5 steel plates at 10 yds. from out of a holster.

A drill she likes to do is aim at a target, close her eyes and fire. Then looks to see where the sights land after recoil.
Muscle memory.

You men may be able to handle the +p stuff,
But I ask again:
Do any of you have wives or partners, etc, that carry or shoot, and may not be able to accurately control hot loads out of a small hand gun?

Now I'll go away before the verbal abuses starts. :behindsofa:

[JFootin]

jg, this is a good subject. I have very small, crippled hands—probably weaker than most women's hands. So I am very interested and will try some of that 147 gr ammo. Thank you! :yo:

[jocko]

hell u ain't gonna get any verbal abuses here, my friend. ur points IMO concerningur wife was excellent. I never thought about any of that stuff eithe.r It has to drip over to men to. I don't do timing stuff with double taps etc, but i just makes sense that hotter ammo is gonna be more challenging in the double tap area. . Normally my first shot is directly through the heart:behindsofa:

Being my PM9 is mag na ported, it is smooth as jellow it seems with any rounds, hot or cold

[O'Dell]

I'm ashamed to admit, I don't get it? Is this a hip hop thing? What's a Nigel Tufnel.

Some times it sucks to be dumb.

I'm with you, Bawanna on hip-hop and the 45 acp. With hip-hop I don't consider it dumb - just intentionally intellectually uninformed.

I dumped [mostly accidentally] all my 9mm's except the PM9 because I needed at least one pocket gun. However, if I had it to do over again it would be a PM40. I don't talk about the LCP because it was given to me. My current inventory of pistols is one 380 [ugh], one 9mm [almost ugh], three 40's with one on the trading block [I won't part with the HK40 or MK40], and eleven 45's.

I know I've said it before but "a 9mm may not expand, but a 45 will never shrink".

[chrish]

jg_rider,

i am most certainly a man, but i don't shoot +p in anything. i agree with your points and do not see the point to shooting +p. to each his own i suppose.

if bullet technology was still what it was 20 years ago, maybe. but every single test i've seen of 147gr SD rounds of multiple manufacturers leads me to the conclusion that they are MORE than adequate, reliable, etc. i like the way they shoot better, i shoot them better than anything +p. i'm sticking w/ them.

i stocked up on winchester super-x 147gr FMJ here recently (flat nosed stuff) for target/plinking/training. i carry the pdx1 147gr. will probably now begin socking away a pile of 147gr aluminum blazers for super cheap shooting.

not that i don't throw my fair share of 115gr plinking stuff down-range, but only when that's all i can get my hands on.

[jg rider]

hell u ain't gonna get any verbal abuses here, my friend. ur points IMO concerningur wife was excellent. I never thought about any of that stuff eithe.r It has to drip over to men to. I don't do timing stuff with double taps etc, but i just makes sense that hotter ammo is gonna be more challenging in the double tap area. . Normally my first shot is directly through the heart:behindsofa:

Being my PM9 is mag na ported, it is smooth as jellow it seems with any rounds, hot or cold

Jocko, you really have a magna ported PM9? Do you have any pictures :photo:

[jocko]

go to the serach section and hit on Jocko's custom PM9. it will pop up. maybe somenice member will make a shortcut for u, as I am lame to that sh!t. Love my PM9 ported. Love my K9 ported, Love myu G19 ported. Magna port would not portmy P3809 or I would love it to. I think Jeepster has more ported kahrs than I do, he picutres them alot..

oo-[s forgot love my ported Model 60, vitage 1970's

[Bawanna]

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=859&highlight=jocko%27s+custom

Ask and ye shall receive.

I have a Magna Ported K40 but only the one. My PM45 will get it someday but it really don't need it. Looks cool though and looking cool is my life.

[wyntrout]

Hey, Jocko. I could port your P380 with my DLT.:D I have lots of attachments that I haven't tried out. I could clamp that baby in a vise and port the heck out of it... low cost!

Wynn:)

[OldLincoln]

I'm always at a loss when we discuss the +P subject. Over and over it's stated that is is a personal preference and it really is. I don't care what you carry and only hope you have the confidence that you are doing the right thing for you.

As for me, I carry 147gn +P. Some will argue that the +P is not good while others that 124gn is better than 147gn. What's funny is often similar speaking folks will go ape over a new round that's 100ft/sec faster or penetrates better, etc. The one thing I'm concerned about once I pull the trigger is will it penetrate enough, not too much.

I bought the PM9 as a pocket carry to replace a 380 because I became convinced I need bigger. I would have gone to 45 except for the pocket carry aspect. However, once I had it for a while I decided it was simply too big for my pockets and went IWB. Now, of course I wish I had got a 45 to begin with.

Stopping power may be a myth but (a big one) when discussing what does stop an assailant it usually comes down to the damage done internally, including shot placement, expansion and penetration. Will a 45 do more damage than a 9mm? After all those bad guys I've shot over the years, I have to say beats me, because I haven't shot even one, well except myself when a kid but that don't count (didn't hurt much and too embarrassed to even tell my folks). Point is I doubt any of us know from personal experience what is the best round, so we read and speculate and form opinions.

I carry my opinion and you carry yours. I won't be swayed and won't try to sway you. Like the old West, "ya gotta do what's right for yerself, Pilgrim."

[jg rider]

go to the serach section and hit on Jocko's custom PM9. it will pop up. maybe somenice member will make a shortcut for u, as I am lame to that sh!t. Love my PM9 ported. Love my K9 ported, Love myu G19 ported. Magna port would not portmy P3809 or I would love it to. I think Jeepster has more ported kahrs than I do, he picutres them alot..

oo-[s forgot love my ported Model 60, vitage 1970's

Sorry Jocko I couldn't find it.
I once had a freakish magna ported 1911.

Many years ago Massad Ayoob wrote an article about magna porting a 1911, and how after it felt like a .380.
So I took a 1911 5" barrel and had it magna ported by ? Kelly? Then I modified the barrel to fit into my Colt Commander. The barrel stuck out 3/4" from the slide.
IMO, Ayoob's .380 comparison was exaggerated, it felt more like a light 9mm load. But still effective in matches. This was before compensators became popular.
Besides the gas redirect, the theory was that the shorter lighter slide caused less felt recoil when coming back against the hand. And the longer govt. barrel didn't require me to to make hotter loads to make major power.
I've been sorry for long time for selling that barrel. It was a conversation piece.

Now I have a compensated .45 1911 govt. model slide with a 1/2" cut off and a dual port compensator

[Bawanna]

Exactly correct Old Lincoln, it's all about what you are confident with. Most will never use their gun in anger, most people will never lose their house to fire but we still carry guns, and have fire departments and extinguishers.

Just a note, not to sway or convince anyone of anything.

Last night we had an attempted suicide. Fella tried a few times before with different methods. Last night he shot himself in the chest with a 9mm. Didn't work again. He lived.

Not sure what bullet he used, if he loaded from slide lock or sling shot. Don't know if he ported the fokker but he shot it like he stole it apparently without success. I do know it was one of them Perfection tupperware guns, not a Kahr. Somethings are just meant to be I guess.

[jg rider]

I'm always at a loss when we discuss the +P subject. Over and over it's stated that is is a personal preference and it really is. I don't care what you carry and only hope you have the confidence that you are doing the right thing for you.

As for me, I carry 147gn +P. Some will argue that the +P is not good while others that 124gn is better than 147gn. What's funny is often similar speaking folks will go ape over a new round that's 100ft/sec faster or penetrates better, etc. The one thing I'm concerned about once I pull the trigger is will it penetrate enough, not too much.

I bought the PM9 as a pocket carry to replace a 380 because I became convinced I need bigger. I would have gone to 45 except for the pocket carry aspect. However, once I had it for a while I decided it was simply too big for my pockets and went IWB. Now, of course I wish I had got a 45 to begin with.

Stopping power may be a myth but (a big one) when discussing what does stop an assailant it usually comes down to the damage done internally, including shot placement, expansion and penetration. Will a 45 do more damage than a 9mm? After all those bad guys I've shot over the years, I have to say beats me, because I haven't shot even one, well except myself when a kid but that don't count (didn't hurt much and too embarrassed to even tell my folks). Point is I doubt any of us know from personal experience what is the best round, so we read and speculate and form opinions.

I carry my opinion and you carry yours. I won't be swayed and won't try to sway you. Like the old West, "ya gotta do what's right for yerself, Pilgrim."

I hope you don't think that I was trying to change your opinion.
The objective of my post was to ask if the men that posted had considered what would be good for their wives and such to use. I was relaying what was needed for my wife even though she's an excellent shooter.
I also was relaying what our and others tests showed.
There I go with the "I," "I," "I"

[muggsy]

I never argue opinions. I try to present facts. The facts are that shot placement is far more important than bullet diameter or velocity. Two, to center mass, one to the head.

[jocko]

I never argue opinions. I try to present facts. The facts are that shot placement is far more important than bullet diameter or velocity. Two, to center mass, one to the head.

u certainly ruined my day, now we gotta talk "facts". WTF is that:D:D

Last time I talked real facts was when I had a heart to heart talk with my dog about crapping on the floor. It was there right in front of him and yet he still did not understand the "facts". darn Muggsy, u had to bring facts into this forum. Now whats next??? Just sayin, next thing is ur gonna post that ur leaving the forum to start the new SHIELD forum.

[Markis82]

i've shot a box of federal hst 124 gr 9mm,
speer gdhp 124 gr 9mm +p,
and winchester ranger t-series 127 gr 9mm +p+
out of a 4" barrel g27.
and the perceptible difference in recoil, to me, was insignificant.

handguns are under-powered by nature.
Using the most powerful round you are proficient with just
increases your chances of survival.
+1!


i don't understand the "i don't practice with +p, so i won't carry it in my carry gun". But i will switch out my 40 caliber barrel in my glock for a 9mm because it's cheaper to shoot???? What's wrong with this picture?

Trigger time is trigger time. Whether you use full power +p loads or milder ball ammunition, it all goes towards building the necessary repetitions needed to work your defensive firearm without having to consciously think about it when in a bad situation.

+p ammunition performs way more consistently than standard presure ammo, even with all of the "newer technology" in bullet design. The amount of extra wear and tear on your firearm from using full power ammunition occasionally is negligible. I have a few guns that have over 50,000 rds thru them, mostly +p ammo and they all look and work great. Regular maintenance and periodic recoil spring changes go along way towards alleviating any isses of excessive wear. Enjoy your guns and pass them on to yout kids! +1.5!

[jg rider]

u certainly ruined my day, now we gotta talk "facts". WTF is that:D:D

Last time I talked real facts was when I had a heart to heart talk with my dog about crapping on the floor. It was there right in front of him and yet he still did not understand the "facts". darn Muggsy, u had to bring facts into this forum. Now whats next??? Just sayin, next thing is ur gonna post that ur leaving the forum to start the new SHIELD forum.

Fact of the matter is Mugssy is right about shot placement,
Fact-ual statistics will show that two to the body and one to the head is fatal
Fact-ory ammo manufactured today is more reliable in any pressure
Fact-oring the response I'm going to get I'm going to my room now