Wichester Ranger (Black Talon)

[RedRyder]

I am pretty new member to both this forum and the Sig forum and have noticed a lack of comments on Winchester Ranger ammo for either brand of guns. I have used it now for several years in both my .40's, .45's and now my 9mm. I have never had a failure in any gun I've used including my new P9 and wonder why it is not mentioned more since it seems very price competitive to other self defense ammo. Something here I am not seeing????? Just askin'. :)

[BEARDOG]

The Black Talon is older and discontinued, But I use Ranger "T". I have it in 9mm, 40, + 45. It is top quality ammo IMO. It maybe because it is a little hard to buy it do to the LEO only Winchester sales rules...But with a little looking can be had. I also like Speer Gold dots.

[jocko]

I never see Winchester ranger ammo around my area. I would have no issues with it. Is the Woinchester sxt (same exact thing) noty the black talon in disguise??? Just askin!:behindsofa:

[jg rider]

I am pretty new member to both this forum and the Sig forum and have noticed a lack of comments on Winchester Ranger ammo for either brand of guns. I have used it now for several years in both my .40's, .45's and now my 9mm. I have never had a failure in any gun I've used including my new P9 and wonder why it is not mentioned more since it seems very price competitive to other self defense ammo. Something here I am not seeing????? Just askin'. :)

Some years back I tested, along with other brands, some L.E.use only Black Talons into a prepared wet-paks. This was stuff that was used at the time by my county's sheriff dept, after Win. took them off the commercial market. I get access to some of their stuff from time to time.

The five rounds fired into a 20" -24" wet-pak went all the way through and into the back stop. I tested 5 in a PM9 and 5 in a K9 (should have tested the K9 first) I then tested them in a 4 1/2" Glock 17, into the pak.wet and they all expanded, but with more penetration then I'd like

I assume that the 3 & 3 1/2 " barrels don't generate enough velocity for expansion.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/9mmAmmo.jpg

[jocko]

corbon dpx will give full expasion in a PM barrel. not a cheap round but neither is life.

[jg rider]

I never see Winchester ranger ammo around my area. I would have no issues with it. Is the Woinchester sxt (same exact thing) noty the black talon in disguise??? Just askin!:behindsofa:
If understand your question correctly: The SXT I have doesn't look like Ranger T. IIRC the SXT was pointier and had a smaller diameter cavity. I've seen SXT on the shelves with no "L.E.use only" label. Never opened a box to see what they look like.

There's some 9mm T result here

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11851

[RedRyder]

Really appreciate the info on the Rangers. Did not realize the penetration is a problem for them. I've always found them on gunbroker.com and they've been pretty reasonable there but in smaller quantities only. May start looking at those HST's especially if I can find some of the overruns. :cool:

[JFootin]

Kyle's Gun Shop usually has the LE 50 round boxes of HSTs and Speer GDs at good prices.

[jg rider]

Kyle's Gun Shop usually has the LE 50 round boxes of HSTs and Speer GDs at good prices.

I believe there's a member named Hot Pig that deals in ammo

[hotpig]

Depends on what Ranger product that you are talking about. The SXT was discontinued in 1998 and replaced with the T-Series. However there was a production run of RA9SXT in 2010 and you can find them from time to time.

The 2010 production does not have the black lubalux like the original SXT designs did.

The Ranger ammo is a perfect marriage with our Kahr and other similar sized guns. They also will work in full size duty weapons. Designed to work in a larger window of velocities you no longer need different bullets for your different guns. You no longer need a +P unless you just want one.

Like some one posted above. I will sell you Ranger, HST, GD LE, GSB LE, but all except one of my personal and duty weapons are loaded with Ranger.

My CW9 has the Winchester PDX1 147gr in it. the Ranger RA9B and RA9BA are still using the old bonded bullet. They have not switched over to the PDX1 bullet yet.

[RedRyder]

Thanks hotpig for info. When I get home from work, I gotta check the boxes to make sure which Ranger product I've got for the 9mm. I've been really pleased with their reliability in all my guns, no matter the caliber. May begin trying a few of the HST's to check them out also. Sounds like the PDX1 is the ideal choice though. Do you have a website for prices???

[hotpig]

mahsupplies.net

[RedRyder]

Not sure whether to start a new thread or just ask it here. What is difference between Fed HST and Hydra Shok???? Same bullet?? Figured HST would probably stand for Hydra SHok Tactical.:confused:

[jg rider]

Not sure whether to start a new thread or just ask it here. What is difference between Fed HST and Hydra Shok???? Same bullet?? Figured HST would probably stand for Hydra SHok Tactical.:confused:

The one on the left is an HST. The one on the right is a Hydra shok. It has a post in the cavity

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Odds%20and%20ends/HydrsskokHST003.jpg

Back in the 80s we loaded 148gr. Hornady hollow base wad cutter
with the cavity facing out, in front of a light 800 fps powder charge. In wet paks they opened from .358" to around .700"

That was the start of the hydra shok design. IIRC, about that time there was prison guard named Brenski (?) in upstate N.Y. that took that design and added a center post to the all lead bullet for better penetration. The original intent was for riot control. Many years later the design was sold to a ammo manufacturer and a jacket was added. I think that was before Fed. had them

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Odds%20and%20ends/HydrsskokHST004.jpg

[hotpig]

They are unrelated bullets. Original Hi Shock Two were to replace the old hi shock bullets. They performed well in testing Federal decided to put them up against the what was new then Ranger T. They also decided to restrict sales to LE.

They performed like crap and were recalled. These were in the regular Federal classic 50 round box. In 2004 they were released again and packaged under the Federal Premium product line. Still restrict sales to LE. 2008 they were moved to the LE only Tactical product line.

[jg rider]

They are unrelated bullets. Original Hi Shock Two were to replace the old hi shock bullets. They performed well in testing Federal decided to put them up against the what was new then Ranger T. They also decided to restrict sales to LE.

They performed like crap and were recalled. These were in the regular Federal classic 50 round box. In 2004 they were released again and packaged under the Federal Premium product line. Still restrict sales to LE. 2008 they were moved to the LE only Tactical product line.

OK I'm confused. The bullet I showed was a .38 that came out of a box labeled Hydra Shok. Where did Hi Shocks come in.

[hotpig]

Sorry, I was responding to RedRyders question.

[jg rider]

Sorry, I was responding to RedRyders question.

I knew that. I was asking you what is the history of the hi shock. What's the relationship between hydra shok and Hi Shock. If you tell me they're the same I'm gonna feel foolish :blushing:

[hotpig]

The Hi Shock is Federal version of the Winchester White box hp ammo. Cheap bottom shelf ammo. The Hydra Shock is Federal top shelf defensive ammo.

They are not related in any way to each other or to the HST.

[CrazyLarry]

hotpig-

You are pretty much correct. The hi shok is their "basic" JHP with a wide point.

The el-cheapo Winchester JHP (also their subsonic and Super-X) line of ammo is based on the older "OSM" design. Midwayusa has the OSM bullets (147gr) on sale right now for $80/500 ...

[PYROhafe]

hot pig, like the site will be makin some purchases soon!

So might be off track a lil here, but....
why are they LEO rounds,(what makes em so special that only officers can use em)
how do i get my hands on some
what happens if you use those in a shtf situation
can you get in trouble for using LE rounds?

[hotpig]

The restriction is by the mfg. It is for marketing purposes.

[Kahrslinger]

Anyone have a link to where I can purchase Ranger t ammo.. I've been looking but keep finding" not available to public"

[hotpig]

I have some in stock.
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/storefront.pl?ref=hotpig27

[Kahrslinger]

I have some in stock.
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/storefront.pl?ref=hotpig27

Great thanks... Site says that the 230gr 46acp t series is on order, but the +p is in stock., I don't have any experience with +p and have read mixed reviews on the stuff.. What do you suggest for my CW45..?

[Kahrslinger]

Great prices by the way... I just paid 28$ for a 20 rd box of Gold Dot 185 gr at my LGS

[hotpig]

In standard pressure the RA45T is by far the most popular for me. The Gold Dot 53966 Federal HST P45HST2 Ranger RA45B then Golden Saber Bonded GSB45APB.

I ordered more Ranger in December. I hope what has not arrived, arrives soon.

[houdini]

I use ti carry black talon now I carry critcal defense in 380 acp, 9mm ,45 acp.