View Full Version : My PM9 let me down today
My normal routine when I go to the range is to take my PM9 and fire it as it's being carried right out of the holster. I fire the 7 rds. in the pistol and the 6 in my backup mag. If it's 100%, I'm GTG. ;)
Well, today I got off only three rounds when the little pistol jammed up as tight as a gnats a*#.
Long story short, for the very first time in 1,307 rounds fired, the end of the recoil spring poked it's ugly little head out of the hole in the slide! :mad:
I re-aligned the recoil assembly in the slide numerous times but to no avail, the little bugger kept poking out.
This is a new assembly with only 389 rds. on it. The last time I fired the PM9 with it in place on 3/12/12, I fired 153 rds. of my carry load and they worked 100%.
Once I got the spring to stay in place, part of the assembly body stuck out by approx. 1/16" stopping the slide to go back into battery when working the slide or attempting to fire the pistol.
After several more attempts to get it to work, I was able to fire 18 rds. w/o a malfunction of any type. :confused:
I have an e-mail into Ian @ Kahr with a more in depth explanation of todays range incident.
I requested a replacement recoil assembly and I'm hoping he will send one out.
For now, the PM9 is out of service (10-7) and the G27 was put back into service. I just can't trust the little PM9 to perform when necessary.
jocko
04-09-2012, 12:56 PM
U might try to open that outter coil up more to see if tha that helps any. Mine has done that before and someone here pointed out this tip totry and since it has all been ok.
Also while your at it loose that darn 7 round magazine as they are known for their problems around these parts. I'd carry two six rounders with one in the tube.
Update:
I just received an e-mail from Ian. He's sending me out a replacement recoil assembly. :D
I'll give the new one a try when it arrives.
Also while your at it loose that darn 7 round magazine as they are known for their problems around these parts. I'd carry two six rounders with one in the tube.
The initial 7 rds. were the 6 in the mag and the 1 in the chamber. 6+1=7 rds. ;)
And BTW, my 7 rd. mag that came with my PM9 works 100%. It rides in my vehicle console.
U might try to open that outter coil up more to see if tha that helps any. Mine has done that before and someone here pointed out this tip totry and since it has all been ok.
When I get the replacement assembly I might experiment on the one that failed me today.
Also while your at it loose that darn 7 round magazine as they are known for their problems around these parts. I'd carry two six rounders with one in the tube.
I carry 2 of the newer 7 rounders as my extra mags- They have fed everything I've tried in them flawlessly :)
Don't write them all off! I haven't tried any of the older ones though :)
DJK11
04-09-2012, 01:59 PM
In my PM9, I use the Wolff 20.5# recoil springs and install the outer spring with the closed coil/end to the front of the slide. Works perfectly. I suggested this to another member experiencing your problem and it works fine for him.
The Wolff outer spring does not have the "gripper" coil at the end. It slides on/off the recoil plunger easily.
muggsy
04-09-2012, 02:01 PM
Jim,
You can order replacement springs from Wolff. You get both the inner and outer, but you'll only need the outer. Install the new outer with the closed end toward the muzzle. It will eliminate the problem and the gun will function perfectly. I did this with my CM9 and had no problems, what-so-ever.
jocko
04-09-2012, 02:06 PM
In my PM9, I use the Wolff 20.5# recoil springs and install the outer spring with the closed coil/end to the front of the slide. Works perfectly. I suggested this to another member experiencing your problem and it works fine for him.
The Wolff outer spring does not have the "gripper" coil at the end. It slides on/off the recoil plunger easily.
WOLFFS RECOIL SPRINGS WILL ONLY WORK WITH THE OLD STYLE pm9 AND pm40 SLIDES, WHICH i OFTEN REFER TO AS THE BLUNT NOSE VERSION.
They are 13 coil by count where as the new style beveled PM9 and PM40 and cm9 and cm40 slides are now 15 coil count. Can one put the 13 coil wolff recoil outter spring in ther new style slide and it work, probably so, but if might be harder on the slide itself.
Longitude Zero
04-09-2012, 02:07 PM
Take sound advice, let Kahr send you one. It is ALWAYS better to keep a pistol as close to factory stock as possible.
jocko
04-09-2012, 02:09 PM
Jim,
You can order replacement springs from Wolff. You get both the inner and outer, but you'll only need the outer. Install the new outer with the closed end toward the muzzle. It will eliminate the problem and the gun will function perfectly. I did this with my CM9 and had no problems, what-so-ever.
might work Ok but that is not the correct way kahr states. The closed end should sit flat against that back recoil tube, and the closed end prevents any chance of that recoil spring from riding over that back portion of the recoil tube. If in doubt, just open up that end of the open end a tasd more and one willnot have any issues in installing the recoil spring as directed. It won't work out the front of the slide, where as the open end can ride over the back portion of the recoil tube. : Just sayin
APSKahr
04-09-2012, 02:15 PM
This is a great example of relying on a mechanical device as they can all fail. Need a backup plan. Knife, backup gun, screaming and running...etc.
Once, years ago I was at the range chronographing some ammunition. This gentleman approaches and asks me if I could fire some of his carry rounds through his PM9 to get the velocity. He takes the holstered PM9 out of his pocket, daintily hands it to me saying it's loaded. He's been carrying it daily for a year and hasn't shot it in that time. I take careful aim to not hit my chronograph and "click". He didn't have a round in the chamber. He was totally shocked thinking he was carrying chambered for the past year.
Thanks for all the comments and tips guys.
I think I'll wait for the new assembly to arrive from Kahr and see what another range session brings with that one in the pistol.
More range time never hurts.
What pisses me off the most and I haven't complained at all, is that I've been carrying my PM9 EDC since my last range session believing I was GTG if I needed the PM9. :eek:
BTW, I thanked Ian as soon as I received his e-mail telling me that he was sending a new assembly right out.
IMO, excellent CS. :D
jocko
04-09-2012, 02:39 PM
as u know SH!T HAPPENS.
as u know SH!T HAPPENS.
All TOO well.
lowroad
04-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Thanks for all the comments and tips guys.
I think I'll wait for the new assembly to arrive from Kahr and see what another range session brings with that one in the pistol.
More range time never hurts.
What pisses me off the most and I haven't complained at all, is that I've been carrying my PM9 EDC since my last range session believing I was GTG if I needed the PM9. :eek:
BTW, I thanked Ian as soon as I received his e-mail telling me that he was sending a new assembly right out.
IMO, excellent CS. :D
well, you got three off right? PLENTY :D
well, you got three off right? PLENTY :D
Still not a warm fuzzy feeling.
chrish
04-09-2012, 04:40 PM
So one of you gunsmith guys answer me this. Why is the front end of the recoil spring on the Kahr open and the back end double-coiled (for lack of a better term)?
I would think if the front end were designed the same, this would be less likely, or impossible to happen. Just sayin'. Maybe my physics and mathematics aren't working here, but it would seem to be a no brainer to close up both ends of the recoil spring.
Does it serve a purpose for it to be open like that?
Don't know that I've noticed like that on any other pistol. My P22 isn't like that having just cleaned it recently. And not sure I've seen a spring open like that on other pistols, but I'd have to go check.
I beleive the springs are made that way due to production techniques...they have to cut that wire off some how when it is spun around the mantle.
jocko
04-09-2012, 05:25 PM
chrish: good question, can't answer that. possably cost thing. again I have no clue, other than it is what it is and we have found from some of the guru's on this forum tha tif one opens up that open end even alittle more, most issue that were happening go away.
One thing I test for is that with my PM9, I reverse that outter spring and insert it on the recoil rod tube and it MUST FOR ME move up and down on that rod with zero restriction. If it does not, then I open that jopen end up more, as that is where the restriction is at and IMO any restriction of that spring in moving freely up and down on the recoil rod "could" possbly hinder reliability. Again 99% are OK but easy to test out.
chrish
04-10-2012, 12:34 AM
chrish: good question, can't answer that. possably cost thing. again I have no clue, other than it is what it is and we have found from some of the guru's on this forum tha tif one opens up that open end even alittle more, most issue that were happening go away.
One thing I test for is that with my PM9, I reverse that outter spring and insert it on the recoil rod tube and it MUST FOR ME move up and down on that rod with zero restriction. If it does not, then I open that jopen end up more, as that is where the restriction is at and IMO any restriction of that spring in moving freely up and down on the recoil rod "could" possbly hinder reliability. Again 99% are OK but easy to test out.
Yea, I guess cost is always the go-to reason for alot of this. But you'd think that'd be so minimal a cost, to figure out a way to twist both ends to a complete coil (or two) would be beneficial not just for this problem, but for reassembly.
I know w/ both my P9 and TP9, putting it back together can sometimes be a PIA because of that open ended spring.
Just my 2 cents on the subject. But like my car (C) that I just drive...I just shoot my Kahr. I keep my Kahr cleaner than my car, that's about the only diff in my desire to know how it works :o ...I just want it to work.
AIRret
04-10-2012, 06:26 AM
Thanks for posting this thread. I'm just getting ready to replace my recoil assembly and now I know what to watch for.
When my 7rd mag. was new I had a few problems. So I loaded it up and let is sit for 3 wks. Since then it has never failed and I usually carry it as my spare mag. BUT I also carry a BUG 80% of the time.
muggsy
04-10-2012, 06:53 AM
Jocko, I pulled the spring on my CM9 and counted the coils of the Wolff front spring and you are correct on the coil count, but my CM9 functions perfectly with the Wolff spring and installing it closed end forward it has eliminated any possibility of the spring protruding through the hole in the front of the slide jamming the gun. I have noticed no perceived increase in recoil and don't believe that any damage is being done to the gun. I don't think that I'll wear it out in the balance of my lifetime. Finally, coil count doesn't have a direct bearing on spring temper. You can send a horse head my way if you like, but that's how I see it.
muggsy
04-10-2012, 07:03 AM
might work Ok but that is not the correct way kahr states. The closed end should sit flat against that back recoil tube, and the closed end prevents any chance of that recoil spring from riding over that back portion of the recoil tube. If in doubt, just open up that end of the open end a tasd more and one willnot have any issues in installing the recoil spring as directed. It won't work out the front of the slide, where as the open end can ride over the back portion of the recoil tube. : Just sayin
I tried opening the front of the original spring and always installed the spring with the open end pointing toward the barrel as recommended. I still had the problem. Buying the Wolff spring and installing it backwards eliminated the problem. I don't think the it's possible for the open end to jump the flange on the RSA and for more than a thousand round it hasn't. Quite frankly, I prefer a gun that goes bang when I pull the trigger. Mine does.
muggsy
04-10-2012, 07:10 AM
I beleive the springs are made that way due to production techniques...they have to cut that wire off some how when it is spun around the mantle.
There are many guns in existence that have recoil springs that are closed on both ends, not to mention ball point pens. There is no real trick to making a coil spring with both ends closed.
Guys, please allow me to interject something into my thread before this all gets carried away as other threads about the Kahr recoil assemblies have in the past. ;)
Fact, I put a Kahr recoil assembly in my PM9 as a replacement for the original.
Fact, The factory Kahr assembly failed yesterday for whatever reason but it failed none the less.
Fact, I contacted Kahr directly before posting here and a new factory unit is on its way to me. I will install that unit as recommended by Kahr with the spring orientated in the way prescribed.
I have used hundreds of Wolff springs in the past in many firearms. I currently have a bunch in inventory for Glocks, SIGs and the 1911 platform. They produce very good springs and they work very well but, they do not list a proper spring set for my model PM9 which is the newer pistol.
The bottom line here for me is, I'm kind of a OEM guy whenever possible, especially when it comes to my self defense firearms.
Thanks again.
Update:
No recoil assembly as of yesterday. :(
I didn't want to bother Ian again for something that was being sent @ N/C but, my curiosity got the best of me si I asked via E-mail.
Come to find, the assembly was sent out via USPS on the 11th! :ohmy:
Ian had yet another one sent out yesterday.
So, we will wait a little longer.
CharlesD
04-20-2012, 09:16 AM
Does anyone know if Kahr or anyone makes a replacement for this spring that would be closed on both ends? That seems like it would be the best in this application. The first time I had the gun apart and then putting it back together I thought that there should be an improvement there. If nothing else it would make it easier to reassemble. But it sounds like it would make the guns more reliable also. Wonder how many people have had this problem while shooting the gun, have to say it concerns me just a tad... A person could probably have a batch of custom springs made up but I am guessing that may be somewhat expensive. Any thoughts?
jocko
04-20-2012, 10:47 AM
not that I have ever seen. IMO one s actully making more out of this open end thing that is necessary. Kahr must have a 100k of their guns out in the open market and what few issues we have read are sometimes due to just to improper installation. I have probably hgadmy PM9 apart for celaning a couple hundred times at least and I can count on one hand the times I have had that spring pop out when reinstalling the recoilunit in theslide and each time it wasmy fault for not being alittle more attentive to what I was doing.. Just sayin.
jocko
04-20-2012, 10:54 AM
Jocko, I pulled the spring on my CM9 and counted the coils of the Wolff front spring and you are correct on the coil count, but my CM9 functions perfectly with the Wolff spring and installing it closed end forward it has eliminated any possibility of the spring protruding through the hole in the front of the slide jamming the gun. I have noticed no perceived increase in recoil and don't believe that any damage is being done to the gun. I don't think that I'll wear it out in the balance of my lifetime. Finally, coil count doesn't have a direct bearing on spring temper. You can send a horse head my way if you like, but that's how I see it.
u can put in what ever spring u feel good with. There is certainly a reason why thenew style slides have a 15 coil count and the old style has a 13 and my bet anyday it is not related to spring temper either. Kahr used to offer a lady PM9 (18# outter spirng) and it was less in coil count over their factory spring, so more than likely ur not gonna harm anything. That is also why one of the reasons kahr in some years back went to the 1/2" recoil end paece were as the orignal PM's had a 3/8" end peace and springs did ride over that end cap. Again this new change probably eliminated that but no doubt in my mind the open end has a far better chance of riding over that end cap than the closed end version .(only takes that one time) Just sayin. No horse head needed, just a difference of opinions. each probalby work OK. I just tend to stay with what the factory people state to do.
IMO, I think some of the issues are also due to the dual captive recoil spring on the cm and pm series kahrs, not the sprin g itself. as all other kahrs have the open one end on them and we don't read of this being an issue with any of those models. Just sayin.
LorenzoB
04-21-2012, 12:44 AM
Does anyone know if Kahr or anyone makes a replacement for this spring that would be closed on both ends? ........
A person could probably have a batch of custom springs made up but I am guessing that may be somewhat expensive. Any thoughts?
Yes, but quantity is a huge price factor on custom springs. I have springs with closed and ground ends made for a different application, and have to order 10,000 every few years just to get the piece price down to where it needs to be for that product. It could be done, but the the price would still be pretty high even at a thousand pieces. Plus you would need to be sure you knew the right specs of the existing spring, AND you wouldn't have a chance to test a prototype, so you may just end up with a very big box of springs in your garage that no one wants because they weren't quite right for some little reason.
In short, its a bit of a gamble, but definitely not impossible.
CharlesD
04-21-2012, 09:23 AM
Yeah, I figured a custom one would not be cost effective for the end user. My original thought would be to find one out of another gun that would be specked close enough where it would just be a drop in fit. But that might be wishful thinking. Maybe I will e-mail Kahr (and maybe even Wolf) and see what they say. Seems to be a somewhat common problem with the CM9 after doing some searching. It should be something that they come up with a remedy for not something I should have to "fix" on a new gun. I would encourage anyone else that ever has any issues with this to also contact kahr about it, if they are aware they will be more apt to improve the design. Hope nobody flames me for this post (I know I am a newbie on the forum), but I put this type of malfunction in the category of things I should not have to worry about, and do not worry about on any of my other guns.
It looks like the PM9 has the same spring / problems with it poking out the front causing malfunctions occasionally. I am guessing that with a simple replacement of that spring (closed on both ends) It would pretty well eliminate this from happening as supported by the ones that choose to put there spring in backwards (with the closed end forward) and not having any more problems with it. Hopefully the ones that chose to do that will report back if they have different problems running the spring that way.
DJK11
04-21-2012, 05:10 PM
I have just over 4000 rnds. through my PM9 with about 3000 of those with the Wolfs 20.5# springs. The outer spring is installed with the closed end forward for a majority of those 3000 rnds. with zero problems.
You can't just reverse the OEM spring and expect it to function, it's not manufactured that way. If both ends are closed you couldn't clip a coil to make it function like many have done.
jocko
04-21-2012, 05:59 PM
I have just over 4000 rnds. through my PM9 with about 3000 of those with the Wolfs 20.5# springs. The outer spring is installed with the closed end forward for a majority of those 3000 rnds. with zero problems.
You can't just reverse the OEM spring and expect it to function, it's not manufactured that way. If both ends are closed you couldn't clip a coil to make it function like many have done.
OK, I'm gonna bite on this one. ur first paragrahp says u hyave reversed your outter spring with the closed end towards the front ad it is a wolffs spring.
then u later paragrph says u cannot do that with the OEM spring.
wolffs makes kahrs outter recoil spring, it is exactly the same, except one is more poundage, my point is they both have an open end on them. If ur 20.5# wolffs springs is doing great there is no reason why the kahr factory (wolffs) spring would not do the same. OR am I missing something in ur post that has put me off track here. Just sayin.
DJK11
04-21-2012, 07:39 PM
The wolff and oem are different. The oem has the gripper or crimped first coil on the closed end therefore it won't function if it's installed in reverse.
We discussed this before.
Jocko,
Install your wolff spring in reverse and tell us if it makes a difference.
Send the head.
jocko
04-21-2012, 07:49 PM
well i did not know that about the oem spring with the crimped first coil. beingf tha tI installedit correctly like kahr stared I never knew that. I stand corrected.\
I have no reason to install my wolffs spring in reverse as I have never had an issue one way or the other, so if it worked, then the difference would still be the same.
bonjorno2
04-21-2012, 09:03 PM
i've got a outter recoil spring here if you need it lmk... don't have a cm9 anymore and it should fit your bill!
For those who know...aren't we back to the original info posted here that the Wolff springs are for the older PM9 and not the newer slide config.?
I personally don't know and haven't paid much attention due to the fact that I have the newer PM9.
The Wolff web site makes no mention of newer or older models.
DJK11
04-22-2012, 06:22 AM
Jimc.
My last post about this.
Yes, back to the beginning.
I own the new slide PM9 and it's been perfect for more more than 4000 rnds. When time to change recoil springs I phoned Wolff and inquired about the new slide PM9 and their springs. Was told it will work fine. It does function perfectly but for the hell-of-it I reversed it and it's still perfect.
jocko
04-22-2012, 07:18 AM
It would be nice if wolffs would state this in thier spring section for the kahr PM9 and cm9 and PM40 and cm40 that this spring will fit in all of those mentioend guns. It would give the owner of one of them confidence. IMO there is a reason why they don't, and I have no clue what that would be either.
It wold be nice to know and understand why then kahr with thge new slides choose to go with a 15 coil spring over the old standard 13 coil spring. Again IMO there is a reason. I am not questioning djk replys he got from wolffs, as I have read this before from others who have called. Why would the designers of the new style kahr slides need to have longer recoil springs when it seems that the old style woks fine???
More than likely for proprietary reason kahr will not tell u why either, nor wolffs..
IMO, I sdurely wold buy the 20.5 recoil spring from wolffs to put in the new style slides being it is shorter but stronger. One might just offset the other and work perfect like in djk kahr. It makes some sense.
I took my PM9 to the range today with a new recoil assembly installed and fired 171 rds., the pistol ran 100% with four different bullets types and weights.
Strange though, the new assembly main spring that Kahr sent me has 13 coils instead of the 15 coils on the newer model PM9s. :confused:
I did notice that working the slide on an empty pistol with or without a magazine in the pistol, it does not have the slight glitch or hang up that it had with the 15 coil spring(s), sort of like the spring did not want to compress.
I don't really care because the pistol runs very well. It's back to being my EDC pistol.
DJK11
04-30-2012, 05:01 PM
Like I keep saying, it will function with the 13 coil spring.
Like I keep saying, it will function with the 13 coil spring.
Apparently so. ;)
jocko
04-30-2012, 05:06 PM
u can't knock success..
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