Shooting Stance

[voodoo54]

Lately I've gotten more into defensive shooting rather than "Target" shooting. Was wondering what everybody out there in Kahr land uses as there shooting stance wether defensive firing, target shooting or otherwise. I personally use the isosceles stance. I personally find it the best for quick defensive firing. Others might think otherwise, let me know what you think.

[jocko]

ur so right inb ur shooting drills. If ur sitting on the crapper and BG comes in with gun, pretty damnhard to get into a Weaver or Isoceles stance withgout sh!ttin all over urself. At my age I don't do alot of the runninbg drills, fokk it, can't run, so I don't worry about hiding behind trees or barrels either. Panera Bread has none of that stuff. they are allgood , not sayin that but the OTHER comes into play for me 98% of the time. WhenI go to thge range withg my PM9 or K9 I just grab an ol chair and set up between 7-10 yards and fire away. Lazy more than anything but I just don't get into to much of this "scenario" stuff. I carry 24/7 that is good enough for me. My PM9 goes bang every time--another big plus. If BG leaves me the fokk alone, all is well. Train the way u feel, the older u get the less that some of these scenarios means. Course If I lived in Detroit, I might be talking a different tune..

[wyntrout]

Dang! You really don't use the "edit" feature!

Wynn:D

[jocko]

oops sorry about that, didn't reread to see I doubled up on it. Good man wyn, u beat bawanna to that even, as he normally pm's me and chews my ass out and gives me a blackmark in his a$$hole column . He claims I have 448 of them. I can't really believe that.

[wyntrout]

Yeah, that DOES seem kind of LOW.:D :boink:

I've double and triple-posted because it didn't seem like anything happened before. Sometimes the forum software prevents that, but not always!



Wynn:)

[Longitude Zero]

Iso was the defacto stance for a long time. Then came Weaver and modified Weaver. Truthfully I use them all depending upon the situation. HOWEVER the reality is that in a self defense scenario the bad guy will more than likely be so close that it will be one handed shooting. I really practice one hand very hard out to 15-25 yards. Both strong and off hand.

How many practice one handed operation of the gun, loading, shooting, malfunction drills etc. I do at least quarterly. If you do not you are not fully prepared.

[jocko]

no doubt I am not fully prepared: Just sayin but I am certainly more prepared than a person who does not carry:

[JFootin]

+1 there, Jocko. I do a lot of my shooting seated. I live most of my life seated. LOL! Standing up, I have to lean against something to shoot two handed or have one hand holding my roller walker or a cane to keep my balance. I cannot run, get in a crouch or on one knee, traverse any uneven ground or stairs, nor can I do any hand to hand combat or dicing around with a tactical knife. I can draw my gun and pull the trigger. Might get me out of a jam. I'm a lot better off than when everyone was using swords. :biggrin1:

[wyntrout]

Dang! I'm too lazy to look up all of those stances and I've forgotten the "nuances" of each. Which one is the belly up to the bar/table at the range and standing and leaning against it a bit... "triangle" with my legs... and squaring off both shoulders to the target and using two hands... relaxed grip with the pistol sights sort of lined up on the target and point-shooting... kind of letting the pistol rise a bit with the recoil... modified "limp-wristing"??

I don't remember which one that is! Maybe it's a combination??:D

Wynn:)

[O'Dell]

I have no idea what a "Weaver" stance is let along a modified Weaver. I was taught fifty years ago to shoot one handed with the strong side facing the target and the other hand in your hip pocket. Granted, I now use a two hand grip and face the target at the range, but what my stance is called I haven't a clue. I just use whatever seems natural for the circumstances or position I happen to be in at the time. Pretty much the same thing applies to my grip. I guess what I saying is, that I don't obsess about either one.

[AJBert]

I learned Weaver many moons ago and it became second nature...

until the military forced me to shoot iso. Now that I'm retired, I tend to shoot more iso but fall back to Weaver now and then.

Heck, I may just invent my own style now that I got my homey sights installed on my 1911!

[jocko]

if u do invent a style, Hell put a name on it!!! I have the ol jocko stance but I wo';t go into it. it is very difficult for me to explain.

[AIRret]

At the range I primarily shoot iso with my strong leg dropped back 5 or 6 inches. But I also shoot one handed strong side and weak side. I don't shoot two handed with my off hand because if I need to use my off hand it will be because my strong hand/arm is out of action or I'm trying to stay behind cover and I don't want to expose myself anymore than necessary. I do have one advantage: I've shot Right handed all my life until last November when I had to switch because of medical issues. I can't shoot a bunch of rounds right handed, but I can still handle about 20rd. It is like going back to your favorite jeans, it's comfortable.
Anyway, about every 4 to 6 weeks my husband and I get to shoot on some hunting property, which means we can practice various positions i.e.; on one knee, sitting, laying, moving, from behind barriers etc. We are not young but we can still move a little, and we still have a hell of a lot of fight left.

[chrish]

I'm w/ O'Dell on this one. Don't really put much thought into my stance. Even if it feels second nature to me, I don't expect to be able to 'get into position' should the need arise. 21 feet and 3 seconds aren't going to allow for anybody to get into position, there is a good chance you'll be sitting down, which I admittedly don't practice enough.

Mostly I suppose I do some kinda half-butted iso stance, but in the end I just go and shoot. Level ground, uneven ground, sitting, one hand, two hands, sideways.

Really, iso and weaver to a point makes you a big freakin' target. Dunno I want to be in either position if I have to pull...assuming I'm standing at the time. I think a completely sideways weaver makes you smallest with two hands still on the gun. But can you do that in 3 seconds?

I think if you are on Top Shot or USPSA, go for it. Some kind of a good rigid stance might help you win a competition. Not so sure in a self defense scenario, better be able to shoot from any position, either hand, in any direction.

[wyntrout]

I'm sure that when the time comes, we'll do what we have to, while trying to avoid being perforated. I don't expect to freeze up, but I do expect to be jerking the trigger... yanking... or whatever to get some distractions, at least, headed toward the BGs while I try to hide behind or under something. The situation will dictate the actions and I hope to be paying attention... Situational Awareness... so I'm not totally surprised by the situation... like just blundering into a convenience store holdup!:eek:

Wynn:)

[Longitude Zero]

In a shooting situation if you are holding a stance aka standing still you have pretty much already lost the gunfight. The secret is MOVE, MOVE, MOVE.

The best training is the perception of the impending action and getting out/away from the trouble breaks out. I have heard every instructor preach that the best gunfight is the one you percieve ahead of time and avoid w/o firing a shot.

[voodoo54]

Moving in a gunfight is very important, to take cover. Firing while moving is extremely inaccurate. You should move to cover if possible then if you have to fire your weapon you should take a good firing stance to provide a stable firing platform. Under stressful conditions you will revert back to whatever training you have done. So I firmly believe you should practice some kind of stance while shooting in case you are attacked wether it's sitting, knelling, standing etc. and you deem it necessary to introduce your weapon into the equation.

[muggsy]

I go with ISO mainly because it's easier to shoot and move from that position. I don't want to be a stationary target. In real close encounters I point shoot from the hip with my left arm extended toward the target to provide some separation.

[OldLincoln]

I selected Other because I train the C.A.R. system (http://www.sabretactical.com/html/center_axis_relock__car_.html) (Intro). A video by SafeArmsReview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbg-Qo8djOA) demonstrates the system pretty well. This video is my favorite and I recommend it first (on YouTube) "Good Cops Bad Cops" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3FtBKdwY4).

This system is different but pretty easy to learn. I did not take it on because I'm a bad dude, but because I'm a weak old man who will lose if I get into a tussle. I've judged this system best for my purely defensive situation.

[Longitude Zero]

Firing while moving is extremely inaccurate.

Not with sufficient training it is not. The vast majority of law enforcement agencies and the military swear by it. It is certainly not as accurate as steady aimed fire using two hands in a rigid aka TARGET LIKE stance, but it is suprisingly accurate if you have the right training and practice the skill.

You might/should familiarize yourself with Gabe Suarezs "Getting off the X".

[TominCA]

If you have time to use two hands you should be running, not shooting

[wyntrout]

It's hard to duck and break your fall with a two-handed grip. Staying alive is paramount. That's why I don't worry about small groups. The only time a two-handed grip might be appropriate is if you're deciding to intervene and have the drop on the bad guy... and THEN, ONLY IF YOU"RE SURE HE DOESN"T HAVE A PARTNER OR PARTNERS THAT YOU HAVEN"T NOTICED. And then you had better be ready to fire, because like the FBI in the movies and on TV, the next thing will be them turning and firing!:eek:

Wynn:)

[Bill K]

I practice the "Oh Crap!" stance. Put a potato in the back, wet the front, get the knees to knocking and then clear, grip, draw, point, shoot. :)

Really though, do a lot of shooting with just the strong hand. Practice mostly with my Airsoft Glock 26 so I can do stuff, e.g. moving off the "X", that I'd be reluctant to do live fire.

At 67 soon to be 68 this old former Marine is finding it harder to practice/train to fight and not just to shoot. Think ifin I had Jocko's money I'd simply hire myself a body guard. :)

[jocko]

indeed but I worked my ass off for 40 years to get where I am today, so I spend it like there is no tomorow. And I know u don't be grudge me that either. Just sayin

[Bawanna]

I practice the "Oh Crap!" stance. Put a potato in the back, wet the front, get the knees to knocking and then clear, grip, draw, point, shoot. :)

Really though, do a lot of shooting with just the strong hand. Practice mostly with my Airsoft Glock 26 so I can do stuff, e.g. moving off the "X", that I'd be reluctant to do live fire.

At 67 soon to be 68 this old former Marine is finding it harder to practice/train to fight and not just to shoot. Think ifin I had Jocko's money I'd simply hire myself a body guard. :)

I'm Jocko's body guard.

[jocko]

and a piss poor one at that, but heh, he's cheap!!!

[jocko]

pray for the great one. He has the delete button they don't trust me with it!!

[wyntrout]

He's worse than depending on a Cop... being half the country away!

Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

Nobody knows where I really am at any given time. Even me. I could be any place. I might not even be where I think I am right now. Some days I don't think I'm even myself, not sure who I think I am on those days but not me.

You are kind of making me feel useless though, once again reinforcing my own thoughts. I think I have a confidence problem no doubt caused by the lead in paint when I was a yonker.

[jocko]

i would not try to make u feel useless great one. I think u do a good enough job without fourm members chimming in. jUST SAYIN.

[muggsy]

I selected Other because I train the C.A.R. system (http://www.sabretactical.com/html/center_axis_relock__car_.html) (Intro). A video by SafeArmsReview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbg-Qo8djOA) demonstrates the system pretty well. This video is my favorite and I recommend it first (on YouTube) "Good Cops Bad Cops" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3FtBKdwY4).

This system is different but pretty easy to learn. I did not take it on because I'm a bad dude, but because I'm a weak old man who will lose if I get into a tussle. I've judged this system best for my purely defensive situation.

Looks like it's time for this old dog to learn some new tricks. I like this Link, Linc.
Thanks.

[MW surveyor]

Unless this has been already posted......Does (that don't look right) firing one handed over your shoulder run'in away count as a "stance"? I try to practice this at the range but they continue to get all huffy about it.

[SpecK]

SWAGGER STANCE!!

http://myspace.roflposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1224400372256.jpg.[roflposters.com].myspace.jpg

[OldLincoln]

Looks like it's time for this old dog to learn some new tricks. I like this Link, Linc.
Thanks.
Yeah, it works for me. I like the support I have pulling it into my chest and with it close in the high position. When I hold it straight out now I feel like it's dangling out like fruit ready to be plucked.

Also it's for close in shooting and by the time I get my gun ready to shoot an aggressor will likely be in that range. Too bad I can't just hang it on a lanyard around my neck. If I put it in a sock hanging around my neck does it count as concealed? Maybe like those old Royal Canadian Mounty lanyards.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/unif/images/diaguniform-1.jpg

[jocko]

he sure looks geekie to me. course he is canadian, !!! He might even be FRENCH canadian, so in that case he probalby has a snicker bar in his holster.

[Tinman507]

I selected Other because I train the C.A.R. system (http://www.sabretactical.com/html/center_axis_relock__car_.html) (Intro). A video by SafeArmsReview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbg-Qo8djOA) demonstrates the system pretty well. This video is my favorite and I recommend it first (on YouTube) "Good Cops Bad Cops" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3FtBKdwY4).

This system is different but pretty easy to learn. I did not take it on because I'm a bad dude, but because I'm a weak old man who will lose if I get into a tussle. I've judged this system best for my purely defensive situation.

I like this a whole lot! Thanks for posting this Linc.

[jocko]

nice video. trust me this wasnot this guys first rodeo eithe.r He is a expert at this, he has done this alot, his accuracy is outstanding. Some could practice till the stars fall out of the sky and not come near what this guy did. speaking for myself on that part. He is just that good. He makes it look so so easy. I'd like to stick a kahr in his hands to see how he would do to. I'm impressed but he looks mid 30's to, Big difference. Flippig side by side in that chair would mabye take me 5 minutes to fulfill where he did it in 2 seconds. My to be young again and so full of piss and vinegar. There is a reason we are called old farts to. "Smell ur area before you leave". Just sayin.

[AJBert]

Been thinking on this a bit more. Had a rather intense training session courtesy of the US Army, though I was Navy, that had me in many different postions until the word "ALERT" was called out. Regardless if I was on my back, standing on my head, spinnig around on my rearend, I jumped into a solid stance and hit the target.

It was a real confidence builder as it didn't matter what you were doing at the moment, but just a couple of simple moves that took no time what so ever got you into your shooting stance.

That being said, has anyone ever had this thought go through the grey matter between one's ears? We all practice, or most of us, for various situations. We shoot at targets and pay attention to where the bullets impact. We practice safe gun control. We pay attention to where our muzzle is at at all times. We shoot enough to have complete confidence in the reliability of our chosen firearm.

Do you think the BG's do the same? Try shooting with your chosen firearm sideways (gansta style) and see if you can even hit the target. I think this is the number one reason why so many innocent bystanders and children sleeping in the comfort of their own beds are shot every year.

I haven't yet done a google search for "gangsta forums" or "gangsta shooting styles". I may just go do that now and see what I come up with.

Awwwwww, who am I kidding, I'm not gonna do that search!

[OldLincoln]

Many years ago the gangs didn't have much in the way of guns, and what they did have they used as threats more than shooting. I doubt they practiced much other than posing. Today it's different and gang fights include actual shooting at each other. I cannot imagine gangs competing as they do around here and not practicing technique at least as much as we do. I suspect their experienced shooters can take most of us down quickly as they will be the aggressors and we the reactors.

So it's the wackos that mug and rob and burgle that I'm mostly training for. I'd try against whoever I must but don't anticipate getting out without a scratch against the local Bulldogs and Raiders.

[wyntrout]

The guy in the poster is using a good hold on the submachine gun... the recoil will make it spray horizontally instead of climbing vertically over the others' heads. I hesitate to say BG's because he might be one, but I think he's usually a good guy.

Wynn:D

[downtownv]

Range shooting vs unexpected encounters are dramatically different. Unless your internal radar has lit up to tell you prepare to draw. In which case stance goes out the wind and getting off your defensive shots are the only thing that matters!

[Longitude Zero]

Range shooting vs unexpected encounters are dramatically different. Unless your internal radar has lit up to tell you prepare to draw. In which case stance goes out the wind and getting off your defensive shots are the only thing that matters!

So true. Hopefully you have been paying sufficient attention to your surroundings that you have a few seconds to acquire targetting data, cover locations and think.

[voodoo54]

We can beat the range shooting vs defensive situation horse to death but in the end whatever you practice is what you are going to do in a life or death situation. I think it is best to practice some kind of basic stance so wether you have to shoot instantly or not you have a base to go off of. Wether that is one-handed or two-handed or whatever. Bottom line is wether you have time to take cover then fire or not you should have some kind of basic stance when actually firing. If not you probably should not be carrying a firearm. If you don't practice any stance then you are setting your self up for failure. If you think if you have time to take some kind of stance before firing in any defensive situation it's already to late then we disagree from the git go and will probably never see eye to eye, to each his own! By the way I appreciate all the candor and discussion.

[jocko]

we have a member on this forum who used his 380 in a defense situation and shot the guy even. I would almost bet the STANCE thing never entered into his mind either.

If he corrects me inb a PM I will surely report back that I was wrong: Just sayin. He wants to remain private about this so I respect that.

[wyntrout]

Practice at the range is very beneficial in getting to know your weapon... loading, clearing malfunctions, reloading quickly, and learning to use the trigger effectively. I think too much time is spent "aiming", though. I'm confident I can get bullets into center of mass at defensive ranges and can generally get the right orientation with the magazines in reloads with some sort of urgency.

I think too many people buy a gun, load it, and carry or put it in their nightstand without knowing if it will shoot reliably or what their first reaction to the recoil, etc., will be.:eek:

Wynn:)

[jocko]

probably dead right there wyn. lots of new guns in vanity drawers that have been there for years to. No doubt though it is better than nothing in the drawer. I sponsored about 25 years ago a fireamr class for women onlyt had over 25 attend, great crowd. I had a certified NRA instructor give the course at my business. recently I ran into one of them and we chatted and I ask if she has ever shot her gun since the class. NO was the answer. Now I wonder just how much info this woman retained in the last 25 years????

[wyntrout]

OMG! I said something the other day about the Air Force not training anyone to shoot other than targets in Basic Training... unless their job was going to involve carrying a gun. Well it looks like they MAY be wising up:

http://www.military.com/news/article/af-putting-new-emphasis-on-firearms-training.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl

It's bad enough that so few military members are armed ON BASE in the STATES, but to be in a COMBAT ZONE and unarmed at any time sucks!

Remember Ft. Hood with the wacko Muslim Psychologist or whatever... just like SHEEPLE!

Wynn:)

[voodoo54]

we have a member on this forum who used his 380 in a defense situation and shot the guy even. I would almost bet the STANCE thing never entered into his mind either.

If he corrects me inb a PM I will surely report back that I was wrong: Just sayin. He wants to remain private about this so I respect that.

I'm sure the stance thing didn't enter his mind but he did whatever he had trained to do. Including a stance wether he realized it or not.

[Barth]

Being Martial Arts trained,
going into a modified weaver like fighting stance is very natural for me.
And how I practice.
Although in a real gunfight I may not have time, or opportunity, to use any stance at all.
I particularly like shooting from a pseudo fighting stance as I feel grounded.
Enhancing my ability to transition to hand to hand combat and execute weapon retention techniques.

[Polygon]

I guess you would call it a modified weaver. I just make sure my shoulders are in front of my hips. However, I like this idea of sitting down at the range. I'm getting really lazy.

[JFootin]

I'm getting really lazy.

That's my preferred "stance"! :p

[itsthelaw]

Yeah, that DOES seem kind of LOW.:D :boink:

Wynn:)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one.

[7shot]

My belief is, that after passing your states CCW class you should also signup for defensive shooting courses. As many different ones as possible. This will give you more of a understanding on what to do and how to do it if a situation should ever arrise. I also know there are a million senarios that could happen but at least you would have a base to go by.

[ScottieG59]

Well, there are guys older than I am here. Like many here, what I was trained in during my early Army years is no longer the best. Also, age and injuries have has an impact.

I practice drawing as I get off the x. I aim to get a proper isosceles grip with two hands. Wherever my feet end out is less of a concern. Ideally, I will try to find cover, but ultimately, my goal is to break contact; I am not law enforcement.

If my target is a critter, I do not worry about getting off the x, still use the isosceles if it is near and I may prepare for some cover or place obstacles between us.

Since we live in a 3 dimension world, I will move to address the back stop issues as well.

Personally, some scenario based combat drill would help, but most ranges are not cool with that. For that, I may go with AirSoft guns.

In the end, situational awareness and some rudimentary skill is key. It also helps to know what situations to avoid.

[voodoo54]

In the end, situational awareness and some rudimentary skill is key. It also helps to know what situations to avoid.

Absolutley true, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Jaguar]

Had a guy follow me, wanting to fight over a perceived injustice I did to him. Actually, I walked in a door he was holding open for an older gentleman, but I passed said gentleman on the way out, then quickly slipped back in to grab a toothpick.

Anyway, he was drunk, belligerent, and pretty much an a$$ hat in full on roid rage. He wanted to throw down with me right there. Followed my wife and I out into the parking lot yelling obscenities and wanting to fight. I had just undergone chemotherapy and was not up for a fist fight in a parking lot.

When he got too close, I assumed the modified weaver stance, put up my weak hand in a stop signal and pulled up my shirt and put my strong hand on my P40. I shouted at him to back off and lucky for him his booze soaked brain engaged just enough and he did stop even though he never saw the weapon. At that point my wife and I disengaged from the situation. Looking back, my range time seemed to have translated directly into a high stress situation.

Probably not the same as someone caught off guard in a dark ally, but it's good to know the skills translate.