CNN says Zimmerman to be prosecuted

[getsome]

If convicted of manslaughter he could get 25 to life...Should be an interesting trial...stay tuned...

[Wolffire99]

Good luck trying to find impartial jurors.

I think regardless of the evidence they knew he had to at least be charged to calm things down. Sucks for Zimmerman, and it's not right, but they can do it. Unless they get the eye witness's to turn I don't see him getting charged with manslaughter.

[kgturner]

Reports saying he'll be charged with 2nd degree murder. We'll see soon enough.

http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-murder-charge-trayvon-martin-case-214123361.html

Kevin T

[Longitude Zero]

He was thusly charged. The DA has to convince all the jurors, the defense only needs to convince 1.

[gb6491]

Ladies and Gents,
This thread is open again, with the following caveat (and I paraphrase):
"While this issue does raise various valid points about race relations, it (race relations) is just too thorny a topic for a gun forum. Accordingly, anything posted on the topic of race will get the thread locked for good."
Regards,
Greg

[Deano]

This was predictable, and who knows if it is justified. One thing seems clear to me: D.A. is going to have it's hands full PROVING him guilty of 2nd degree murder. I think innocent until proven guilty is still the law, but I'm not sure. I'm a little surprised they didn't go for a manslaughter charge. Let the circus begin.

[ptoemmes]

My son is of the opinion that 2nd degree murder was done in order to "encourage" Zimmerman to plead manslaughter. I doubt he will do that, but suppose it's possible once the defense gets to see all the prosecution has.

However, in Florida I believe a jury can come back with a manslaughter conviction if they fail to agree on the 2nd degree murder charge.

I think the bond hearing is today and a likely next step after that is for the defense to file a motion to dismiss based on "stand your ground" (not sure of the technical process). A single judge gets to rule on that. I suspect/guess it will end up in trial though.

Pete

[Barth]

Even if he is found innocent of criminal charges the legal fees will likely ruin him.
And if there is anything left, the civil courts will finish him off.
Hasta la vista, baby.

[joe d]

I think only 2 people really know the facts on what really happened in this mess,and 1 is not around to tell their version...IMO,the media has helped making this a freaking mess of hate and indifference and of course will continue to do so.....really an unfortunate terrible incident for all involved...this is gonna be nuts...just my .02...

[JohnR]

Good luck trying to find impartial jurors...
Not that I'm volunteering, or would be picked, but I have deliberately ignored most of the coverage of the incident because I knew no useful facts would be put out there. I'm still open minded and somewhat impartial.

[Bawanna]

Not that I'm volunteering, or would be picked, but I have deliberately ignored most of the coverage of the incident because I knew no useful facts would be put out there. I'm still open minded and somewhat impartial.

Ditto, me too. And the funny thing is we'll never know the facts as they all get screened by the media.
If he's cleared a guilty man will have not received justice.

If he's convicted he'll have deserved more.

Only two options in the how to be a media reporter hand book.

Add in Jesse and the bunch and we could have a new day time soap opera.

[knkali]

I think that wer all should watch this case closely. The legal wrangling is something that anyone who uses their ccw weapon will have to face. It is important for us to discuss this case and help define what your limits are before using deadly force and understand completely the legal ramifications of same. Lets not let the color of their skin be a part of this discussion and focus on the facts as they are presented and try to understand the mindset of each party as this terrible scenario was unfolding.

[getsome]

As the OP of this thread I would like to thank Greg and the other moderators for the fine job you do and I hope this thread will remain civil and not become a problem issue and if it does please lock it down ASAP...

After I posted it I began to think last night it might not have been such a good idea but the reason I did was that I was somewhat surprised that Mr. Zimmerman was arrested after so long a time and it really started me to thinking about what a huge responsibility it is to CCW for protection...

This tragic shooting has really made me stop and think about what I would do if God forbid something happened and I might be forced to use a firearm for protection...I'm starting to lean towards just handing over my wallet and let the BG go rather than pull and shoot and then find out all he had in his pocket was a finger pointed at me and no gun....Yes it might cost me my life doing so but unless I see a weapon and feel dead sure my life is in jeopardy I would back off due to seeing what happens if you are involved in a shooting then arrested and lose your family, your job and everything else you worked hard for all your life only to spend years in prison due to the way the justice system and the media work as we are seeing in the Zimmerman case so in reality I'm dead either way...

The only reason for my post is to hopefully make all of us who CCW stop and think very hard about what really happens and what the repercussions are of a split second decision to fire your weapon and what consequenses making that decision will have on the rest of your life...

As for the Zimmerman case none of us have all the evidence that the jury will see during the case and it makes no sense to argue about it one way or the other because thats the juries job...I welcome y'alls opinions on CCW and whether to shoot/no shoot so long as we stay within the rules of the forum...As always thanks to everyone...

[knkali]

As the OP of this thread I would like to thank Greg and the other moderators for the fine job you do and I hope this thread will remain civil and not become a problem issue and if it does please lock it down ASAP...

After I posted it I began to think last night it might not have been such a good idea but the reason I did was that I was somewhat surprised that Mr. Zimmerman was arrested after so long a time and it really started me to thinking about what a huge responsibility it is to CCW for protection...

This tragic shooting has really made me stop and think about what I would do if God forbid something happened and I might be forced to use a firearm for protection...I'm starting to lean towards just handing over my wallet and let the BG go rather than pull and shoot and then find out all he had in his pocket was a finger pointed at me and no gun....Yes it might cost me my life doing so but unless I see a weapon and feel dead sure my life is in jeopardy I would back off due to seeing what happens if you are involved in a shooting then arrested and lose your family, your job and everything else you worked hard for all your life only to spend years in prison due to the way the justice system and the media work as we are seeing in the Zimmerman case so in reality I'm dead either way...

The only reason for my post is to hopefully make all of us who CCW stop and think very hard about what really happens and the repercussions of a split second decision to fire your weapon will have on the rest of your life...

As for the Zimmerman case none of us have all the evidence that the jury will see during the case and it makes no sense to argue about it one way or the other because thats the juries job...I welcome y'alls opinions on CCW and whether to shoot/no shoot so long as we stay within the rules of the forum...As always thanks to everyone...

+1000. This is exactly why , through the wisdom of the mods, this thread is allowed to exist and why it is important. Obviously, you are tempering to where your comfort level is regarding the use of your gun. Guns are not the only thing to consider. What about a knife? Club? Pepper spray? Fist? Are any of these "weapons" enough to pull on a guy? I realize thar scenarios are dynamic in nature but playing the" what if "game is important.

[knkali]

One thing I have realized is never get out of your car an get involved unless you see a family member getting assaulted. There are too many variables otherwise. Stay in the car and monitor or leave after calling for help.

[jocko]

I concur with Knkali, stay out of other people business if at all possable. We will die for our family, I won't for my neighbor across the street: just sayin

We gotta let this thing play out and my bet if the case goes totrial it willbe close to 1.5 years before thay happens and by then alot of the feeding frenzy mighty have subsided. We don'[t know what happened but IMO I think 2nd degree murder is gonna be alot harder to prove than mansluaghter. I look for some good attorney to get involved in this case. they could care less about zimmerman but the publicity is what they are after

Deleted the rainbow paragraph. Leave the race at Charlotte Motor Speedway.
(bawanna)

please don't lockthis thread because of what I just said, if it offends the mods, just delecte my thread. I do feel like most this is a subject of great importance to a gun fourm, keep it clean, giveur opinions as just that,..

[getsome]

Thank you gentlemen for keeping this clean and on track...I really think this issue is of great importance and a learning experience to anyone who carries a firearm and the importance of when to and when not to use it...

I agree 100% with knkali and jocko that in this day and time it's more important than ever to mind your own business and I'll give an example of something I recently did trying to do the right thing and it turning out bad...

I was visiting my sons new apartment recently and on the way back to my car I saw that someone had dropped their car keys so my idea was to try and figure out which car they belonged to and leave a note under the wiper that my son had them in his apartment...

I touched the door lock button to see if the headlights would blink or the horn beep once so I would know which car they went to....Well somehow I managed to set off the alarm on a new Lexus sports car and out of nowhere comes this BIG dude with 3 or 4 buddies and he was looking very upset...I tried to explain what happened but I'm pretty sure he was drinking or on something because he kept getting in my face and wanting to kick my a$$ like I was trying to steel his car or something...

He finally grabbed the keys out of my hand and he and his buddies went back to their apartment acting all big and bad and never said thanks for finding my keys so that some other lowlife didn't really steal my car...

That incedent taught me a lesson about getting involved in something that isn't my business...Next time he can find his own d@mn keys!!!

[Tinman507]

This may seem Polly-annish to a degree, but I don't think you can go wrong doing the right thing always.

Sorry you did your Good Turn for a D-bag but you still did the right thing.

Deep down most folks are good people. Yes there is a whole classification of total dregs and human garbage out there but that shouldn't force us to become disinterested and disengaged.

[Bawanna]

I gotta be the odd man out once again. I'm a get involved guy. I agree we need to be extremely careful and I'm a firm believer in NO good deed goes unpunished but no damsel in distress need worry if I'm in the area.

Graffiti artist, people that bother old people, anything not acceptable to society I'm involved. Turning the other cheek is why we're where we're at today.

[jocko]

getsome: There u go, a good semaritan that could have went real bad. One hates to feel the way I stated to but wometimes one canmaybe getinvolved in something that seems blackand white only to find out it might be a family thibg and then both parties turn on u.

Fokk with me, and I might take a beatign before I will pull my gun, fokk withy my family and u will be shot . I am 68, so they \can't take a whole lot of life from me either, but I always felt I could run or retreat but my wife and kids maybe cannot. Hell of an attitude to have when it might involve other people u don't know but I can walk away from it.

There is alot of human garbage out there but unfortunaltey according to the law they get every right u and I have and again not to sound racist, if he is black and u are white, it might again be a wholenew ball game for what criminal justice is all about. 2nd degree murder in florida is minimum senstence of 25 years, mansalughter is maybe 5 years, u know the blakc folks would have never settled for a mansalugherr charge, no way. I think the prosecutor was under dureess to "do the wrong thing" IMO, she is gonna have to workher ass off to win this case. Burden of prooff in 2nd degree murder is alot higher than manslaugher. Only takes on juror thugh, so in this case I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6...

[les strat]

He is probably safer in jail. When the new black panthers have a hit on you, it's not a good place to be. That, plus Sharpton. JJ, and crew enciting the public to civil unrest if he is not crucified. He won't be safe if he is cleared, and violence will ensue, mark my words on that.

This is a case of circumstance. I personally think Zimmerman should have backed off when told by the 911 person, Regardless, this is not a law, so if he was attacked, I believe he had the right to shoot. But, he could have backed off. IDK.

An off-duty LEO working as a security guard is no more a cop than "self-appointed neighborhood watch" guy. If the security guard approaches a suspicious person, and that person attacks, and he shoots them, is he also now up for 2nd degree murder?

The prosecution said, "We want all to know, these charges are not being brought about because of public outcry." I call BS on that.

[beatlesfan]

I'm the get involved guy as well. If I see someone in trouble I'm gonna help. The police may take too long to show up and the victim could be badly hurt by the time they do. Even for someone dropping their keys, I'd still do the same and try to figure out who's car it was.

Sent from AOKP using Tapatalk.

[beatlesfan]

He is probably safer in jail. When the new black panthers have a hit on you, it's not a good place to be. That, plus Sharpton. JJ, and crew enciting the public to civil unrest if he is not crucified. He won't be safe if he is cleared, and violence will ensue, mark my words on that.

I'm gonna agree with you on this part. If not in jail, then locked in the house with a Remington 1100 and a Glock 18.

Sent from AOKP using Tapatalk.

[Deano]

Zimmerman's life will never be the same. On that we can all agree. I think about these types of cases a lot when trying to formulate in my mind what it would take to actually bring me to shoot someone. It would take a lot, but how much? Tough question to answer unless you're actually in a situation where you fear for your life. My hope is that none of us ever end up in that situation. It's a life changer for sure. Even if it's totally justified, financial harm or even ruin is a certainty. High price to pay for defending yourself. Clearly the best idea is to stay away from places where it might become necessary. Zimmerman seems to have strayed from the simple mantra "don't go looking for trouble".

[Bawanna]

Zimmerman's life will never be the same. On that we can all agree. I think about these types of cases a lot when trying to formulate in my mind what it would take to actually bring me to shoot someone. It would take a lot, but how much? Tough question to answer unless you're actually in a situation where you fear for your life. My hope is that none of us ever end up in that situation. It's a life changer for sure. Even if it's totally justified, financial harm or even ruin is a certainty. High price to pay for defending yourself. Clearly the best idea is to stay away from places where it might become necessary. Zimmerman seems to have strayed from the simple mantra "don't go looking for trouble".

Based on what the media says which is worth little or nothing. He was part of a neighborhood watch program, so his job (paying or not) was to look for trouble. Unfortunately for all involved he found it.

Again we are basing assumptions and scenarios with no good source of information.

[Deano]

Based on what the media says which is worth little or nothing. He was part of a neighborhood watch program, so his job (paying or not) was to look for trouble. Unfortunately for all involved he found it.

Again we are basing assumptions and scenarios with no good source of information.
Even though he was on "neighborhood watch", the police clearly told him not to follow Trayvon. He chose to ignore that. So to me, he clearly did go looking for trouble and he certainly found it.

[Bawanna]

Even though he was on "neighborhood watch", the police clearly told him not to follow Trayvon. He chose to ignore that. So to me, he clearly did go looking for trouble and he certainly found it.

That is standard response from a dispatcher trained to avoid liability. They will always tell you not to do anything that might cause you harm or they may be held accountable.

Your child is kidnapped, your following in your vehicle but can't get a plate number, they will tell you not to pursue. What you gonna do? Listen to a messenger in a climate controlled office thinking about their next break or do what your assigned or feel you need to do.

I agree your technically correct. According to the media he was told to slack off and not do anything so he did go looking for it.

[muggsy]

Even though he was on "neighborhood watch", the police clearly told him not to follow Trayvon. He chose to ignore that. So to me, he clearly did go looking for trouble and he certainly found it.

The police didn't tell Zimmermen not to follow Trayvon. Their exact word were that, "it wasn't necessary". Words mean things. If they wanted Zimmerman to stop following Trayvon they should have ordered him to stop. According to Zimmerman he stopped following Trayvon when he lost sight of him. Zimmerman claims that he was returning to his truck when Trayvon attacked him. If those are the facts it indicates a clear case of self defense. Some of us may find ourselves in Zimmerman's position some day. Be very careful about what you say.

[ORSalesRep]

Even though he was on "neighborhood watch", the police clearly told him not to follow Trayvon. He chose to ignore that. So to me, he clearly did go looking for trouble and he certainly found it.
The information that we have cannot yet be taken as gospel. The media is full of sh** on so many levels. I've heard it both ways. I heard that the actual 911 tape had Zimmerman saying he was going to continue to follow Martin and observe and the 911 operation responded by telling him that was not necessary. At which point I've heard that he did so anyway and I have also heard he broke off his pursuit and was attacked on his way back to his vehicle. We will have to wait until the trial. Nothing in the press can be counted on. They posted a picture of Martin when he was 13 years old and looked like a child. Martin was 6'2" and 180 pounds.

[AIRret]

To get involve or NOT? I guess you have to decide what you can live with!!! If someone was shooting people in a McDonnell's, a mall, a school playground..... I know I could not live in peace if I did not act, no matter what the legal cost. I'd be happier in jail than living with my my thoughts of what happened. However, Zimmerman was NOT in that situation. He simply saw someone who looked suspicious! I bet he wishes he never left his car/truck. I feel sorry for him. His intentions were probably good, but life is not that simple.

Personally, I think this case could be HUGE with respect to carry laws!!!! It may afect all of us! Exactly WHAT does "stand you ground" mean? For me if stand your ground means you can show your weapon to discourage an attack I think it would be great!

[Bill K]

... Clearly the best idea is to stay away from places where it might become necessary. ...

I hear you Deano but it can happen anywhere, anytime. An incident that I was involved in happened in one of the "best" neighborhoods in the city and in broad daylight.

Your point is still well taken, there is a lot one can do to lower the probability/chance of being involved in a violent incident.

[ORSalesRep]

The police didn't tell Zimmermen not to follow Trayvon. Their exact word were that, "it wasn't necessary". Words mean things. If they wanted Zimmerman to stop following Trayvon they should have ordered him to stop. According to Zimmerman he stopped following Trayvon when he lost sight of him. Zimmerman claims that he was returning to his truck when Trayvon attacked him. If those are the facts it indicates a clear case of self defense. Some of us may find ourselves in Zimmerman's position some day. Be very careful about what you say.

+1

I think that Zimmerman was only charged due to the racial tension in FL and in a effort to cool things down some. Remember, with Florida's "Stand your ground" law, the law is on Zimmermans side. The prosecution will NEVER get a murder 2 conviction. Under FL law Zimmerman only has to have perceived that his life was in danger. Whether his perception was correct or not has no bearing at all. If he perceived his life was in danger, he acted within the boundaries of FL law. For Murder 2, the prosecution has to convince all of the jurors that he had intent, acted outside of Florida law and did not fear for his life. Zimmerman only need on juror to believe him. Really, all the special prosecutor and the State of Florida did was delayed the inevitable. The riots will happen after he is acquitted.

[jocko]

AIR ret: I wilhave to agree with you, If something was going down in a McDonnels, a mall or a school payground, I would consider that a total different scenario to what zimmer had. He was the pursurer in this case. in the other 3 cases u were not pursuing anythinbb ut now trying to save lives that is evident. I see no waythe authorities could consider u the pursuer in this case. I would not have done what zimmerman did, no way, right or wrong, he pursued this kid (young adult) and right or wrong he is gonna pay the price for it, whether it be held in jail for 2 years while thge trial goes on and if he is later acquitted, makesno difference, he is ruined and WHY? because he was fokking "gun ho!!! If u go looking fro trouble no doubt u can find it. I would be so so leary of getting into an confronatation that did not involve my family. Whemn we strap a gun on, we take on a whole lot of responsibility, some that maybe we never thought of

I really don['t believe anything I read on the liberalmedia, they are out to hang zimmerman, right or wrong. These are the same people who want to takeaway our right to protect ourselves. I am not alibing for zimmerman either, if they canprove hge did wrong, then throw the book at him for his crime but don't hold it against the STAND YOUR GROUND LAW. This is what is in jeopardy IMO and it could spread to other states to. Not sure we gun owners win even if zimmerman wins.

[ORSalesRep]

AIR ret: I wilhave to agree with you, If something was going down in a McDonnels, a mall or a school payground, I would consider that a total different scenario to what zimmer had. He was the pursurer in this case. in the other 3 cases u were not pursuing anythinbb ut now trying to save lives that is evident. I see no waythe authorities could consider u the pursuer in this case. I would not have done what zimmerman did, no way, right or wrong, he pursued this kid (young adult) and right or wrong he is gonna pay the price for it, whether it be held in jail for 2 years while thge trial goes on and if he is later acquitted, makesno difference, he is ruined and WHY? because he was fokking "gun ho!!! If u go looking fro trouble no doubt u can find it. I would be so so leary of getting into an confronatation that did not involve my family. Whemn we strap a gun on, we take on a whole lot of responsibility, some that maybe we never thought of

I really don['t believe anything I read on the liberalmedia, they are out to hang zimmerman, right or wrong. These are the same people who want to takeaway our right to protect ourselves. I am not alibing for zimmerman either, if they canprove hge did wrong, then throw the book at him for his crime but don't hold it against the STAND YOUR GROUND LAW. This is what is in jeopardy IMO and it could spread to other states to. Not sure we gun owners win even if zimmerman wins.

Agreed.

[knkali]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei8OK4WdoW0

[QuercusMax]

The only reason for my post is to hopefully make all of us who CCW stop and think very hard about what really happens and what the repercussions are of a split second decision to fire your weapon and what consequenses making that decision will have on the rest of your life...



That says it all for me.

The best advice I have been given about carrying is that you should use your deadly weapon ONLY if the life of a loved one is on the line, and there is no other alternative.

Any other circumstance - in "defense" of property or other people - is only going to get you into a LOT of trouble that you really don't want. There are just too many social activists, lawyers, and media people to risk it otherwise.

That's my personal policy. And I hope others do the same.

[tilefish]

Even if he is found innocent of criminal charges the legal fees will likely ruin him.
And if there is anything left, the civil courts will finish him off.
Hasta la vista, baby.

No, under Florida law he will be immune from civil prosecution if he is cleared of charges. Similar law was recently passed here in NC. If it was a legit self-defense shoot, there can be no civil liability.


This will not end well either way and I personally think that the pressure from behind the scenes is far more political than anything about justice. If Zimmerman goes free, it will be used to galvanize anti 2A support.

[jocko]

probably right on that

[AIRret]

tilefish, do you know the details of your NC stand your own ground law?

[Barth]

No, under Florida law he will be immune from civil prosecution if he is cleared of charges. Similar law was recently passed here in NC. If it was a legit self-defense shoot, there can be no civil liability.


This will not end well either way and I personally think that the pressure from behind the scenes is far more political than anything about justice. If Zimmerman goes free, it will be used to galvanize anti 2A support.

Can Trayvon's Family Sue Zimmerman in Civil Court?
By Stephanie Rabiner, Esq. on March 30, 2012 4:02 AM | No TrackBacks
Even if Florida prosecutors never bring criminal charges against George Zimmerman, can Trayvon Martin's family sue Zimmerman in civil court?

This is the latest question being asked of Trayvon's parents, even though they appear to be focused on finding criminal justice for their son. Nonetheless, it's an important one -- and one this blogger would ordinarily answer with a resounding "yes."

However, Florida law complicates the issue, and may just prevent such a suit.

Normally, individuals are free to bring negligence or wrongful death suits even when an alleged criminal is never convicted. The O.J. Simpson case is a good example. He was acquitted of all criminal charges, but a civil trial ended in a $46 million verdict.

Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law -- the same law that could prevent criminal charges from being filed against Zimmerman -- may prevent a civil lawsuit. Individuals who use deadly force in self-defense are immune from both criminal and civil liability under the law.

This is likely why, on Monday, attorney Ben Crump told the Orlando Sentinel that Trayvon's family has no plans to sue Zimmerman in civil court. At least not yet. If the grand jury indicts Zimmerman and charges are filed, a judge will decide whether the self-defense law applies. If he decides it does, the criminal charges will be dropped and the family won't be able to sue Zimmerman.

It could be months before the issue of self-defense goes before a judge, which means it will likely be months before Trayvon's parents know whether they can sue Zimmerman.

[Deano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei8OK4WdoW0

Good synopsis of proper carry behavior. Thanks for posting.

[Tilos]

I'm thinking Zimmerman should hire a black attorney.
just sayin'

[Deano]

I hear you Deano but it can happen anywhere, anytime. An incident that I was involved in happened in one of the "best" neighborhoods in the city and in broad daylight.

Your point is still well taken, there is a lot one can do to lower the probability/chance of being involved in a violent incident.
I see you're from Connecticut. I used to live there for awhile. Certain parts of Bridgeport or New Haven at night come to mind as places I would avoid. Never been to Hartford, but I would imagine it has it's choice locales as well.

[Mr_D]

This will not end well either way and I personally think that the pressure from behind the scenes is far more political than anything about justice. If Zimmerman goes free, it will be used to galvanize anti 2A support.
I can agree with this!!
I'm betting that the prosecutor got a call from "someone" in the Justice dept. with a special message.

[Bawanna]

I can agree with this!!
I'm betting that the prosecutor got a call from "someone" in the Justice dept. with a special message.

Or the White House.

[JFootin]

http://image.patriotpost.us/2012-04-13-digest-cartoon-3.jpg

[gm412]

Since they went with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter, I think a judge will throw it out before he ever goes to court.

[Barth]

Since they went with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter, I think a judge will throw it out before he ever goes to court.

I've heard speculation that they will purposefully charge high
to gain leverage for a plea bargin and to give the jury more options.

Looks like his lawyer is trying for a quick bail hearing today.
Indicated that trial might not begin for a year.

[jocko]

I'm thinking Zimmerman should hire a black attorney.
just sayin'

could find one to take the case, as the attorneyt now are pro bono for the pulicitityt. Wouldn't that p;iss ol Al and jesse off.

[jocko]

I read somewhere today where zimmermans attorney said trial could last a year. That seems very hard to believe.

[Barth]

I read somewhere today where zimmermans attorney said trial could last a year. That seems very hard to believe.

What I read was take a year to get to trial.
And they wanted to wait to let things simmer down.

[muggsy]

Based on what the media says which is worth little or nothing. He was part of a neighborhood watch program, so his job (paying or not) was to look for trouble. Unfortunately for all involved he found it.

Again we are basing assumptions and scenarios with no good source of information.

Bawanna, you and I seem to be cut from the same cloth. I could not stand by and watch someone being beaten or killed and do nothing. I couldn't live with myself. I don't go looking for trouble, but if I happen upon it I act. I believe that if an individual sees something bad going down and does nothing to stop it then he or she is no better than the perpetrator. We are our brother's keeper.