I'm liking WST more and more

[DJK11]

Needed some time with the PM9 and XD9SC. So I packed 300 rnds. of Berrys plated 124 HBRN with WST 4.8 and 100 with Titegroup 4.3. 400 total.

These are not powder-puff loads and the WST 9mm. is not a book load.

At about 30' the WST combo is a sweet shooter in both pistols. Dead nuts with the Xd just because I shoot that better ( bulls eye) than the PM9. Not much muzzle flip, very low flash and very clean burning.

The Titegroup combo shot a bit low by about 2"-3". It burns HOT, more flash and a bit dirtier but cleaner than WWB or Federal Champion. I'm going to load Titegroup at 4.1 and give that a try. I ran 25 rnds. of 4.1 in testing and felt the PM9 needed a hotter load, the XD ran ok at 4.1

[Bill K]

You read like a guy that knows his reloading stuff. Curious... Would you carry with your reloads or are you of the opinion it is not a good idea should you ever have to use your gun in a SD situation?

Thanks

[DJK11]

Personally, I'm confident to carry my reloads but I haven't. With that said, I have given it some serious consideration. When one finds a load that works and trains with it instinct takes over and you become accustom to the "feel".

I stopped loading light loads because I liked shooting them. I became accustom to light loads and when running full power SD loads I lost accuracy.

[jocko]

Just my opinion but I would think if one considers himself a good reloaded and does allthe right things to prep the case etc and measure the powder and seat the bullet to the depth he wants, that he can produce as good if not better of a dfeense load, certainly years agho when I was reloading for the 9mm for just range fodder with 115 fmj ammo, I never had any issues and it was so so so cheap back then to do so. I think if u hve the good equipment that is made today for reloading that you should go for it. Not sure if some of the great bullets that are on some of the mfgered rounds are availalb e for reloaders, as I am outta touch with that stuff today. Bullets like the power ball or hornady CT bullets, not sure if one can buy just the bullets. U guys know beter than I do of that.

[DJK11]

Jocko,

I'm in agreement with you. I think that's twice now.

[DJK11]

The WST combo I like with the PM45 is Berrys plated 185 HBRN and 4.9gr. at 1.250".

Another great WST load is Berrys plated 230 RN and 4.7 or 4.8 gr. at 1.250". Very accurate.

I found that WST is not compatible with Dillion case lube. Don't get that case lube inside of the cases with WST. I found out the hard way.

[Tinman507]

Jocko,

I'm in agreement with you. I think that's twice now.

Makes you feel like showering doesn't it?:behindsofa:

[Bawanna]

I think the issue with using reloads for carry is a prosecutor saying you were premeditated and made your own special killing bullets.

I have no concerns carrying my reloads far as quality goes, just the legal issues which of course would be just one of many.

With factory you can say you carry them cause the guy at Wally World said they were good. You'd probably get off on an insanity clause.

[DJK11]

I think the issue with using reloads for carry is a prosecutor saying you were premeditated and made your own special killing bullets.

I have no concerns carrying my reloads far as quality goes, just the legal issues which of course would be just one of many.

With factory you can say you carry them cause the guy at Wally World said they were good. You'd probably get off on an insanity clause.

Kind of like Charles Bronson in the Vigilante movies.

[dkmatthews]

I've heard people talk about the risk of carrying hand loaded ammo, but I just don't see it. Load your ammo to the reloading manual specifications and keep your ammo in cases documented with the bullet, powder & primer and you're good to go. Remember, we don't carry to engage in a "fair" fight. We carry to survive an attack from the BGs.

[Bawanna]

I've heard people talk about the risk of carrying hand loaded ammo, but I just don't see it. Load your ammo to the reloading manual specifications and keep your ammo in cases documented with the bullet, powder & primer and you're good to go. Remember, we don't carry to engage in a "fair" fight. We carry to survive an attack from the BGs.

That makes perfect common sense to most of us here BUT try to make a bottom feeding, ambulance chasing lawyer understand that you aren't the spawn of Charles Bronson in a courtroom where common sense isn't allowed or understood.

I agree with you 1000% and in a shooting even there will be so many obstacles it will be like a mine field. This would only be one tiny issue in the scheme of things.

[bapple]

I've heard about the loading your own defense ammo thing too.

And also before I get into that, I LOVE WST in 40 and 45. For 40, it gives the most mild recoil I have ever felt. Many of you are probably used to the snappiness of 40, but the WST really makes it mild. In 45 for competition, I run 4.3grs WST with a Berry's 200gr bullet.

For me, the BEST defense powder I can find is Blue Dot. It's dirty for mid range loads and doesn't burn completely, but at the upper end, it's amazing. This is my carry and home defense load...

124gr Hornady XTP 9mm with nickel-plated case. Loaded with 7.9grs Blue Dot. The listed velocity on Alliant's site is 1238 fps!!!! I know I will never get that out of my Kahr with the short barrel, but that's still packing some serious energy.

155gr Hornady XTP .40 with nickel-plated case. Loaded with 10.2grs Blue Dot. Listed velocity is 1221 fps, and I'm using a Beretta 96 vertec, so the velocity would probably be similar out of my gun.

In the Kahr for carry, I have a mixture of my XTP reloads, Hornady Critical Defense, and Winchester PDX1. You never know how all hollow points will act so for me, it's good to have them all ready to go since they all feed flawlessly. I will most likely change the Critical Defense to critical duty though, because the Critical Duty is heavier (135gr vs 115) and has given many people good ballistic results.

[Mudcat]

I really like WST and use it quite a bit. I think it and Winchester powders in general get looked over a lot of times. They have always given me excellent performance and consistent results from batch to batch.

I always keep a good supply of my reloaded SD ammo around. I like the Speer Glod Dot and Hornady XTP bullets. I load to the same FPS as the factory ammo. I use them more for checking function of a certain bullet profile in a new or unknown gun. I can load and shoot a hundred of my reloaded SD ammo for function check for the same money I can buy a box of 20 from the factory.
Though I almost always carry the factory ammo in gun and spare magazine. I really don't think the legal problems would be that great as long as the ammo you load is not some over powered or the bullet has some modifications to it. But for that cost and possible expense I will buy factory.

[jg rider]

I think the issue with using reloads for carry is a prosecutor saying you were premeditated and made your own special killing bullets.

I have no concerns carrying my reloads far as quality goes, just the legal issues which of course would be just one of many.

With factory you can say you carry them cause the guy at Wally World said they were good. You'd probably get off on an insanity clause.

I agree with Bawanna. If they can, I suggest to people to carry what their local L.E. agency use. The agency position probably states that it's safe for innocent bystanders etc. In the days when expanding ammo wasn't as reliable as they are now, people loaded their own, and some were IMO as good or better then what we have now.
But all it takes is some prosecutor trying to make headlines or a bottom feeder that sees dollar signs to ruin your day.
The other thing that can bite people is if their gun has too light of a trigger pull.
Or if you used a revolver with the hammer cocked. (Deeper primmer hits than D.A.). Does anyone remember stories of when L.E.O.s carried revolvers and their department had the S.A. hooks hammers removed because of liability issues?

I seem to remember that Massad Ayoob's book "In The Gravest Extreme" had a bunch of do's and don'ts

[Sliebl]

I think the issue with using reloads for carry is a prosecutor saying you were premeditated and made your own special killing bullets.

I have no concerns carrying my reloads far as quality goes, just the legal issues which of course would be just one of many.

With factory you can say you carry them cause the guy at Wally World said they were good. You'd probably get off on an insanity clause.
Bawanna,
Let me first say that I don't disagree with your position on only carrying factory loaded ammunition, as that's what I do as well, but I'm not sure that there have ever been any court cases that went against the shooter due to the use of hand loaded SD rounds.

I was wondering if you are aware of any court cases where a self defense shooting, involving the use of reloaded ammo, was the basis of charges held against the shooter?

-Steve

[jlottmc]

Bawanna,
I was wondering if you are aware of any court cases where a self defense shooting, involving the use of reloaded ammo, was the basis of charges held against the shooter?

-Steve


Read some of Masaad Ayoob's work. He talks about this extensively. Thing is a bottom feeder will try to show malicious intent with ammo (evidence) that the defendant (you) literally manufactured. It also serves a bottom feeder for penalty enhancements. I can't think of a case right off that was lost solely to this, but why give the lawyers ammunition (pun not really intended)?

[Mattias44]

If they're looking into what type of ammo you used, you're already f... err, screwed.

[jg rider]

I've heard about the loading your own defense ammo thing too.

And also before I get into that, I LOVE WST in 40 and 45. For 40, it gives the most mild recoil I have ever felt. Many of you are probably used to the snappiness of 40, but the WST really makes it mild. In 45 for competition, I run 4.3grs WST with a Berry's 200gr bullet.

For me, the BEST defense powder I can find is Blue Dot. It's dirty for mid range loads and doesn't burn completely, but at the upper end, it's amazing. This is my carry and home defense load...

124gr Hornady XTP 9mm with nickel-plated case. Loaded with 7.9grs Blue Dot. The listed velocity on Alliant's site is 1238 fps!!!! I know I will never get that out of my Kahr with the short barrel, but that's still packing some serious energy.

155gr Hornady XTP .40 with nickel-plated case. Loaded with 10.2grs Blue Dot. Listed velocity is 1221 fps, and I'm using a Beretta 96 vertec, so the velocity would probably be similar out of my gun.

In the Kahr for carry, I have a mixture of my XTP reloads, Hornady Critical Defense, and Winchester PDX1. You never know how all hollow points will act so for me, it's good to have them all ready to go since they all feed flawlessly. I will most likely change the Critical Defense to critical duty though, because the Critical Duty is heavier (135gr vs 115) and has given many people good ballistic results.

I also like WST for competition in my 180gr. and 200 gr. .45 loads. And your right it is mild.

FYI for does that are history buffs: Many years ago when Rob Latham was shooting .45s out of 1911s, he discovered a really mild shotgun powder, Win. 452AA. It was called the softest of all powders. And people agreed. Unfortunately Olin Corp. in their wisdom decided to discontinue it. Then they came out with WST which is almost as mild as the 452 stuff.

[jocko]

Bawanna,
Let me first say that I don't disagree with your position on only carrying factory loaded ammunition, as that's what I do as well, but I'm not sure that there have ever been any court cases that went against the shooter due to the use of hand loaded SD rounds.

I was wondering if you are aware of any court cases where a self defense shooting, involving the use of reloaded ammo, was the basis of charges held against the shooter?

-Steve

am waiting tyo see that first case kand then also to see a conviction resulting from that scenario to. I don't buy into it but that is just me. If that is indeed gonna be a total worry to one,maybe he should not be carrying then: Just sayin

One assmes alot of extra legal sh!t when he puts a gun on his body, remember that.

[jg rider]

am waiting tyo see that first case kand then also to see a conviction resulting from that scenario to. I don't buy into it but that is just me. If that is indeed gonna be a total worry to one,maybe he should not be carrying then: Just sayin

One assmes alot of extra legal sh!t when he puts a gun on his body, remember that.

I'm not so concerned with a prosecution as I am of a law suit by relatives. I don't know of any firearm suit, but I heard of one that involved a stabbing. The knife in question had been sharpened on both edges which was then considered a dagger and the stabee's attorney claimed the knife's only function was to kill. There had been an arrest for carrying a concealed dagger.
This happened a long time ago so I don't remember all the particulars

[Bawanna]

I feel fortunate, I have an untapped 8# keg of 452AA and a couple 1# cans too. I used it for shotgun.

For the life of me I can't think what WST stands for, I feel so dumb and embarrassed to ask but there are a ton of new powders out there in recent times and I tend to stick with my old favorites.

I may have to try the 452AA in my 45, never used it.

[Tinman507]

I don't know nuffin about 452AA.

I DO know about Old #7. Does that count?

http://www.chesapeakearena.com/custom_files/image/JDarch_club.gif

[jg rider]

I feel fortunate, I have an untapped 8# keg of 452AA and a couple 1# cans too. I used it for shotgun.

For the life of me I can't think what WST stands for, I feel so dumb and embarrassed to ask but there are a ton of new powders out there in recent times and I tend to stick with my old favorites.

I may have to try the 452AA in my 45, never used it.

Wow ! How long have you had them. It's well over 10 years since Olin discontinued it. You need to to use it up fast or it'll spoil and you'll get light.

[Mattias44]

Bawanna, WST stands for Winchester Super Target. I'm going to run and grab some tonight after work to see what all the hype is about!

[jg rider]

I feel fortunate, I have an untapped 8# keg of 452AA and a couple 1# cans too. I used it for shotgun.

For the life of me I can't think what WST stands for, I feel so dumb and embarrassed to ask but there are a ton of new powders out there in recent times and I tend to stick with my old favorites.

I may have to try the 452AA in my 45, never used it.

Oh hell! Since I shoot a lot I'll take chance and take it off your hands. What do you think need to get for it?

[Bawanna]

Wow ! How long have you had them. It's well over 10 years since Olin discontinued it. You need to to use it up fast or it'll spoil and you'll get light.

I'm sure it's been well over 20 years since I got it. Actually a friend and shooting partner bought it and gave it to me. I don't know what the shelf life is. I hope since it's never been open and it's been in a cool dark dry place all those years it's still ok. Guess I'll find out some day.

I loaded a ton of trap loads with that stuff.

I have to say I've never heard of Winchester Super Target so something on the to try list some day.

I've got several pounds of W231 to burn up for now.

[jg rider]

Bawanna, WST stands for Winchester Super Target. I'm going to run and grab some tonight after work to see what all the hype is about!
IMHO, don't get talked into WSF (Win Supper Field) I thinkit has a sharper kick.

[Bawanna]

Oh hell! Since I shoot a lot I'll take chance and take it off your hands. What do you think need to get for it?

Wasn't figuring on selling it but I'll certainly share with you. If I ever get south or you ever get north we could do a hand off.

Wait you got that AR 22 conversion deal with all them mags, maybe trading stock. Very rare, not made any more. Collectible, in original container.....
Chain yank right there.

I think Haz Mat would kill us shipping powder. The shop I use a lot for Dept stuff won't even ship powder or primers any more. Lucky they started coming to the gun show here in town and bring me stuff there when I need it.

[muggsy]

I think the issue with using reloads for carry is a prosecutor saying you were premeditated and made your own special killing bullets.

I have no concerns carrying my reloads far as quality goes, just the legal issues which of course would be just one of many.

With factory you can say you carry them cause the guy at Wally World said they were good. You'd probably get off on an insanity clause.

I wouldn't be concerned about it, Bawanna. The prosecutor is going to make a big deal about whatever defensive ammo you use if he or she is of that mind. That's why it pays to have a good lawyer on retainer.

[jg rider]

Wasn't figuring on selling it but I'll certainly share with you. If I ever get south or you ever get north we could do a hand off.

Wait you got that AR 22 conversion deal with all them mags, maybe trading stock. Very rare, not made any more. Collectible, in original container.....
Chain yank right there.

I think Haz Mat would kill us shipping powder. The shop I use a lot for Dept stuff won't even ship powder or primers any more. Lucky they started coming to the gun show here in town and bring me stuff there when I need it.

LOL! Bad timing. Since we have two Spikes AR .22 dedicated uppers on lowers, I haven't used the conversion unit in years.
So yesterday I posted it for sale as a military issue M261 .22 conversion unit in Craigs List (real sneaky like) they haven't caught on yet, Back Page .com, Outdoors Trader, and Northwest Firearms. Sold it this morning.
Met the buyer at a mall. I didn't think it was gonna go so fast.
I don't remember telling anyone here that it was up for sale
Now I only need to raise another $200.00, or $100.00 if I can chew the seller down, to buy a $500.00 Walther TPH that someone here directed me to.

I don't think shipping powder is a haz. mat. issue. I may be mistaken but I thought it was only primers that is haz. mat

[Bawanna]

You mentioned you were going to sell it since you had the others. I have no idea what something like that was worth only that it was more than I probably had which is extremely normal.

Oh well, day late and a dollar short once again. Whittle that in my head board, probably won't afford stone. Wife's gonna no doubt do her grieving in the Bahama's.

[jg rider]

I'm sure it's been well over 20 years since I got it. Actually a friend and shooting partner bought it and gave it to me. I don't know what the shelf life is. I hope since it's never been open and it's been in a cool dark dry place all those years it's still ok. Guess I'll find out some day.

I loaded a ton of trap loads with that stuff.

I have to say I've never heard of Winchester Super Target so something on the to try list some day.

I've got several pounds of W231 to burn up for now.

I appreciate the offer but I was only kidding. I should have put a smilie. If I still competed in IPSC I'd take you up on your offer. But now I only compete in Steel Plate matches.

For steel I use 3.5/ Bullseye/180 or 200/SWC. It's the old light bullseye shooter's load. Or 4.0/WST/180/SWC. A 10# recoil spring is recommend.
For IPSC matches I used 5.6/WST/180/SWC or 5.0/WST/200/SWC or 5.8/231/200/SWC
For IPSC practice I used 5.5/WST/180/SWC or 4.6/WST/200/SWC or 5.5/231/200/SWC
For defense practice we use 5.5/WST/180/SWC

I don't recommend anyone trying these loads. I'm just saying that's what I used.

I couldn't find any old 452AA loads. I went and looked in an old 1984 Bill Wilson book for what the old champions used.

Back then guys like Rob Leatham, Brian Enos, Ray Chapman, J.Michael Plaxco, Mickey Fowler, Ken Hackathon, John Shaw used 5.7-5.8/231/200 for IPSC
And 5.0-5.5/231/200 for practice
Bill Wilson and some others
used 5.0/Bullseye/200 for Ipsc
and 4.6-4.8/Bullseye/200 for practice

You're old enough to know these names, right? :D

As some celebrity here likes to say "I'm just saying"

[jg rider]

You mentioned you were going to sell it since you had the others. I have no idea what something like that was worth only that it was more than I probably had which is extremely normal.

Oh well, day late and a dollar short once again. Whittle that in my head board, probably won't afford stone. Wife's gonna no doubt do her grieving in the Bahama's.

Don't tell anyone, keep this to yourself. IMHO unless you have an old A1 AR with the 1:12 twist I wouldn't buy one.
The A2 Colts with the 1:7 twist is too violent I had to many misses at 50yds that it made me think that the bullets were exploding mid flight.
The newer 1:9 twist was better but 1:12 was best.
The last thing is crap build up in the gas tube. After shooting a lot of .22s out of an AR, accuracy will suffer when you go back to 5.56. You'll need to get a bunch of extra long pipe cleaners, sold by Brownells, to clean the gas tube.

That's my story and I'm sticky to it

[bapple]

I'm sure it's been well over 20 years since I got it. Actually a friend and shooting partner bought it and gave it to me. I don't know what the shelf life is. I hope since it's never been open and it's been in a cool dark dry place all those years it's still ok. Guess I'll find out some day.

I loaded a ton of trap loads with that stuff.

I have to say I've never heard of Winchester Super Target so something on the to try list some day.

I've got several pounds of W231 to burn up for now.

I don't think WST has been out all that long because I can't find it in my 2008 Hornady reloading book. All my data for it comes directly from the Hodgdon/Winchester reloading center online.

I LOVE WST a lot, but one thing I slightly disagree with is it being clean. I have found it is much more gummy than other powders and I usually end up having to scrub it with a copper wire brush to get it off certain areas. I think Alliant Power Pistol and Winchester Autocomp are two much cleaner powders.

So for me, when it comes to velocity - Alliant Blue Dot (includes defense loads). And when it comes to mild target rounds - Winchester Super Target.

[jg rider]

I don't think WST has been out all that long because I can't find it in my 2008 Hornady reloading book. All my data for it comes directly from the Hodgdon/Winchester reloading center online.

I LOVE WST a lot, but one thing I slightly disagree with is it being clean. I have found it is much more gummy than other powders and I usually end up having to scrub it with a copper wire brush to get it off certain areas. I think Alliant Power Pistol and Winchester Autocomp are two much cleaner powders.

So for me, when it comes to velocity - Alliant Blue Dot (includes defense loads). And when it comes to mild target rounds - Winchester Super Target.

I don't remember WST being gummy, but I clean about once year and when the wife's away so that I can use the dish washer.
It's not as dirty as Unique or Blue Dot... or was it Green dot?
In any case I seem to remember that you need more Blue Dot to make the same velocity as WST or others.
Pleas correct me if I'm wrong

[TheTman]

With so many great SD loads available, I wouldn't take the chance of using handloads in a SD scenario. When on trial whether civil or criminal, there are a number of things that they are going to look at, and perhaps using ammunition "specifically designed to kill" or whatever terminology a lawyer might use, just might be the thing to swing a juror's mind over to a guilty vote. I doubt if anyone has been convicted JUST because they used reloads, but it may have been a contributing factor to being found guilty.
Do what you want, chances are you'll never have to use them for SD, but if you do, hope you have a good lawyer on retainer. That, and the possibility of a bad load are a couple of things that keep me using name brand SD ammo. I don't care how long you been reloading, a bad load or squib load is a possiblity, we are human and we do make mistakes. I'm not trying to insult your reloading skill or anything, just sayin.

[bapple]

I don't remember WST being gummy, but I clean about once year and when the wife's away so that I can use the dish washer.
It's not as dirty as Unique or Blue Dot... or was it Green dot?
In any case I seem to remember that you need more Blue Dot to make the same velocity as WST or others.
Pleas correct me if I'm wrong

Well on Alliant's website, Power Pistol and Blue Dot are the two highest velocity powders they have, with Blue Dot edging it out by a bit. I've never looked at the max velocities for WST but it's a very fast burning powder and I don't know how it would handle the load. Then again, maybe it would be good and it's very low flash so it's certainly a possibility.

[ilmbaba]

You read like a guy that knows his reloading stuff. Curious... Would you carry with your reloads or are you of the opinion it is not a good idea should you ever have to use your gun in a SD situation?

Thanks

I used to think it made perfect sense to use my own reloads, and then, just last week, I had one not go boom, for no apparent reason. This was out of 50 that I had done in a sitting. Now, I'm not saying that you'll never get a dud from a factory load, but in all my years shooting, I can't say as I ever had a factory load not work (besides, if it doesn't fire, then you can become a bottomfeeder and sue the ammo company......if you survive the attack).
Don't know if I did something wrong, or if all the planets were lined up just right, but I would not want to see the size of the BG's smile if I pull the trigger and it just goes click.

[jocko]

it still makes perfect sense to reload: If ur good at it. what happened to u doesn't really IMNO prove thatu did anything wrong, just that the planets were not in aligment that second..Fokk it reload and continue to shoot it like u stole it

SH!T HAPPENS ILMBABA