Ruger hawkeye going to the gunsmith

[olympicmotorcars]

O.K. everybody, I know we generally talk Kahrs here, but I thought I would share my frustration with my rifle. I sold most of my older guns a couple years ago and bought new ones. I love all my new handguns and they all shoot extremely well, exceeded my hopes even. Then there is my Ruger Hawkeye 300 Win. Mag.

I researched rifles pretty well the same as I researched the rest of my new guns, by reading everything I could on all the forums and talking to all of my friends . I loved almost everything about the Ruger from the start. American company, mauser type action, controlled feed, fixed ejector, big claw type extractor, 3 position safety, included scope rings, improved trigger, Ruger reputation for reliability. All the boxes were checked except I kept reading some people were disappointed with the accuracy. I just chalked it up to a few disgruntled owners ( just like some Kahr, Glock, Walther, etc, owners )

To make a long story short, it sometimes groups excellent (under 1 inch at 100 yards), but it does not do it consistently. I cannot spot a pattern to it either. tried Winchester, Remington, and Hornady ammo. cold barrel, warm barrel, hot barrel, different range trips, weather, different shooters, sometimes I get a 1 inch group, other times a 3 inch group. sometimes it shoots 2 inches low, sometimes 2 inches high. mostly it strings the shots vertically, it is pretty tight horizontally (usually within 2 inches). I have a Nikon 3 x 9 scope (paid about 250 dollars for it , so it is not a bargain basement scope but not really high dollar either)

I finally broke down and am taking it to a gunsmith tomorrow.

Does anyone have any ideas or experience with a Ruger rifle?

[Bawanna]

Have you had the barrel and action out of the stock? Vertical stringing quite frequently could be over tightening or under tightening that front action screw.

However it sounds like its doing different things on different trips. A glass bedding job might help or pillar bedding. I've cured a few with just a glassed in little pad out on the end of the barrel. Just to put a little upward pressure on it.

There's a ton of variables that could be messing you up.

I'd make sure the scope and mounts are all snug and nothing is moving around.

If your shooting from a bench (you no doubt are) make sure your resting on the stock (you already know that too?)

[gb6491]

What kind of rest are you shooing from?

[CJB]

Sorry to say... the Ruger action is noted for vertical stringing. They used the angled action screw to help with that, but the oddly squared bottom and such... they all do very well with glass bedding. You can do it yourself. Not sure if you can pillar bed a M77 action at the front. But you can glass bed it. There are videos on the net that cover it in detail.

You probably wont shrink groups to sub-1" on any sort of basis, but your point of impact should get very consistent. The .300Win mag has the ability to group very well, but its gotta have a gun capable of it. There are also accuracy tricks when loading belted cartridges, should you load your own. Naturally, bullet weight differences and load differences will cause all sorts of vertical displacement due to ballistics.

Try the glass bed route, its been done to cure many a Ruger M77. I dont think the Ruger factory would do that for ya... so... either pay for it, or DIY. Maybe watch the videos first and decide?

[olympicmotorcars]

I have had the action out of the stock several times and re tightened the screws. I have no idea how tight they are supposed to be, I just tightened them down as tight as I could.

I tried to free float the barrel and got it free floated but after the next trip to the range the action shifted I guess, and it was touching the stock again.

I retightened the scope rings today (one of them was a little loose but it did not seem to make a difference.

I am resting on the stock and nothing is touching the barrel when I am on the bench. I am shooting from a concrete table with sandbags for rests.

The crown of the barrel looks like it is O.K. and has a nice star pattern where the gas looks to be escaping evenly.

I have heard that glass bedding does not "take" to synthetic stocks very well and breaks loose after a little while ( I have a stainless synthetic rifle ).

I have also heard Ruger used to "farm out " their barrel production to various companies with mixed results, but since has started making them In-house and the quality control has gone way up supposedly.

[gb6491]

...
I am resting on the stock and nothing is touching the barrel when I am on the bench. I am shooting from a concrete table with sandbags for rests.
..
Is it possible that one of the sling studs is resting on or hitting the sandbags?
Regards,
Greg

[olympicmotorcars]

Yes, a sling stud probably does rest on a sandbag. Will that affect accuracy ?

[gb6491]

Yes, a sling stud probably does rest on a sandbag. Will that affect accuracy ?
Have had it happen, the rifle doesn't slide back as consistently under recoil if resting on a stud. If the stud isn't on a bag, but hits one during recoil it can affect accuracy as well.
Regards,
Greg

[roskee]

A glass bedding job might help or pillar bedding. I've cured a few with just a glassed in little pad out on the end of the barrel. Just to put a little upward pressure on it.


Glass bedding should be some help to your accuracy. I own a Hawkeye .270, and my groups are consistant for the most part. But at the same token, every shooter has their off days. One day I will be punching holes on top of each other, and other days some flyers.

One thing I'm still not over is the black bear I missed from ONLY 40yds a few months back!! My 100yd groups (sandbagging) would have told you differently...

Like mentioned above, you are comparing groups of the same bullet grain weight, right?

[WMD]

Vertical stringing is more then likely your stock. As Bawanna said, you may have the screws too tight, or the stock is touching the barrel. I think you mentioned in an earlier post sometimes the stock touches and sometimes it doesn't. That shouldn't be happening. Definitely sounds like a glass bedding job is in order. It is not hard to do. Check out youtube and do it yourself. :)

I have also had varied accuracy with my Rem 700 in 7mm mag. Most of the time, it is drilling the bull. On occasion I can't hit crap using the same ammo from a bench rest. I figure the problem is not the gun but me. Some days you are on and some days you are not. :D

[olympicmotorcars]

just got back from the gunsmith, he wants to free float the barrel again ( my free float job did not work , action must have shifted ) , and also wants to torque the bedding screws and re tighten the scope screws and lock tight everything down and try it again.

sounded reasonable to me so I told him go ahead.

I will let you know how it turns out

thanks for the input everybody.

[Bawanna]

I agree he's on the right track. Sometimes the best solution when you can't pin point the problem is to completely start over.
The action should not shift. Take the scope off, clean all the holes and screws and tighten uniformly.

Just start from ground zero with attention to detail in each step.

With a synthetic stock I can't see that action shifting but apparently it is. A action bedding job might be in your future.

[CJB]

To the best of my knowledge - Ruger has never farmed out barrels. All made in house from day one.

[tv_racin_fan]

To the best of my knowledge - Ruger has never farmed out barrels. All made in house from day one.

That aint what I understand. It is my understanding Ruger started making their own barrels in the late '80s.

[CJB]

Someplace I got a history of Ruger from day one thu about ...well...1980! Author talked abot BR himself designing rifling macinery. That coulda bee pistol barrels tho.

[Wolffire99]

Vertical stringing is normal in almost all sporter barrels in high caliber rifles. To get a true grouping you need a cold bore for each shot. Try letting the rifle cool off for 4-5 minutes in between each one. I bet you see a significant difference.

[muggsy]

If you are cleaning the gun between sessions you may need to take a fouling shot or two before you shoot for record. Vertical stringing usually occurs as the barrel heats up. Sporter weight barrels can warp with heat. +1 on letting the gun cool between shots. If you can't wrap your hand around the barrel and keep it there for 10 seconds it's too, hot. I was never particularly concerned with how a hunting rifle grouped in a three or five shot string. I was more concerned with how well it held it's point of impact from day to day. The hunters have a saying. One shot, yes. Two shots, maybe. Three shots, no way. I've never had a deer stand still for more than one shot and I've never shot one from a bench rest.

[olympicmotorcars]

I got my rifle back from the gunsmith today. I should have free floated the barrel again myself , the very end of the fore end is still touching the barrel. It does look like the took the action out and put lock tite on all the screws though.

I am going to the range again Saturday. I understand about a fouling shot first and shooting from a cool barrel. I will be careful to do that.

Also I was reading about scopes last night and found an article about parrellax ( may not be spelled right ). It said all scopes have some shifting of the crosshairs at some distances when you move your eye from side to side while looking at the crosshairs. I am going to try to check this also.

If this does not do it, it is back to square one. Probably need to find a different gunsmith also. Anybody know of one they can recommend?

[Bawanna]

What part of the world you in?

That barrel touching on the very end might not be a bad thing. On a sporter weight barrel it might just soak up some of the whip. Course it could also be a bad thing too. Guess we'll all find out Saturday.

[Wolffire99]

Parallax is generally only an issue if shooting further than 300 yards or super close distances. Most rifles scope's parallax is set at 100 or 150 yards which has negligible shift at 50-300 yards. We're talking 1/4 MOA of crosshairs shift. And that's IF your eye is in a different spot.

[olympicmotorcars]

I am in central Arkansas Bawanna.

[CJB]

Also I was reading about scopes last night and found an article about parrellax ( may not be spelled right ). It said all scopes have some shifting of the crosshairs at some distances when you move your eye from side to side while looking at the crosshairs. I am going to try to check this also.



First off - every older Remington I've ever had apart, always had a nice little machined wood pad at the tip, just barely pressing on the barrel. Not enough to cause any spring or real tension when pushing the action into the stock. Hand fit for sure... Sometimes you'd see a little " 'glass pad" and I'm guessing that was for times when hand fitting was over zealous.

~~

Next - I'm gonna give you my secret to dealing with parallax. This secret has made me cash money at indoor ranges and I really hate to divulge it here in public, but here goes.

The normal tendency is to get your eye positioned fore and aft, such that the image is bright from edge to edge. Bad. Don't do that. That is how your eye gets off center - you have no center point of reference. Off center at very long distance, no problem. Shorter distance, big problem. The fix, hold your eye closer, or further slightly so you get a black ring around the image. Yer eye is ace at centering things... er... "by eye". Center the scope outer ring, the black non-image optical picture, and the round clear image... all with the crosshairs. You will NEVER suffer parallax misalignment that way.

~

Back in the day, I'd scam shooters eager to part with what was about to become me and Kenny's beer money. They'd have expensive scoped .22 rifles. Kenny would BS them into shooting against me with either my old .22 BSA Martini with iron sights (lollipop front and adjustable iris rear), or against them with their own scoped rifle. We had only about 55 feet indoors, parallax was a huge issue. I knew how to handle it. If we were lucky, we'd get enough for two beers apiece! I hardly said a word... Kenny did all the talkin' and I just did the shootin'.

[olympicmotorcars]

Thanks CJB , I am going to try this tomorrow.

[olympicmotorcars]

O.K. I went to the range yesterday and here is my report.

After 2 fowling shots, I shot a 3 shot group with my Hornady 180 grain ammo that measured about one and one quarter inches center to center at 100 yards.
Impact point was 2 inches high directly above the bullseye. (just like I wanted it) Actually the first 2 shots were almost touching. Shot a few Remington 180s and the groups opened up to about 2 inches.

Moved out to 200 yards and things changed quite a bit. 3 shots with Hornady were about 4 inches center to center in an almost perfect triangle with the bullseye in almost the exact center. So my scope I am pretty sure is right on the money. It was pretty windy but the wind was at my back pretty much , maybe a little crosswind, not much.

moved back to 100 yards and shot 3 rounds of Winchester silvertip 180s and got a 3 inch group. ( my Ruger has never liked Winchesters at all )

Shot all three groups starting with a cold barrel, but did not let the barrel cool much between shots, maybe 2 minutes between shots, however the barrel never got very hot, just warm.

My thoughts are:

1. I cleaned my barrel with Hopps before this session,( which I had let it go without cleaning for several sessions previously because the groups seemed to tighten up the more fowled it got.) I wonder how often my barrel needs to be cleaned? Am I cleaning it correctly? How often does everyone else clean their barrels and what do you use to clean it? Someone at the range suggested Wipe-out .

2. I am considering buying some match grade ammo and see it this helps any.
Hornady, Black Hills, other suggestions? I don't reload my own yet ( I know I really should , but just haven't gotten that far with it yet, don't have any reloading equipment yet ) I wonder how much this will help? If I could get about 1 inch groups at 100 yards , and maybe 2 and 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards consistently, I would be happy for now. I feel I am really close to doing this.

3. 200 yards is a different world than 100 , I can see a lot more factors come into play at those distances ( like wind ) and errors in your technique are magnified greatly. I can also see to go out much further than 300 yards will be beyond my abilities in any hunting situation. Also I probably should have gone with at least a 4 - 12 power scope instead of a 3 - 9 .

4. I am thinking about going ahead and free floating my stock . ( which the gunsmith only partially did, the very end of the stock is still touching the barrel. I may wait on this though as some of you have suggested this may not necessarily be a bad thing.

I can see I still have a lot to learn about long range rifle accuracy.

[muggsy]

Some barrels shoot well free floated and others don't. When my father built rifles with sporting weight barrels he generally would have a slight upward pressure on the barrel at the tip of the fore end. (about 6-7 lbs) The bottom of the barrel channel was relieved and it was as if the barrel was sitting in a vee block. That helps to dampen barrel oscillations.

The vital area of most game animals is about 18". If you can keep all of your shots within an 18" circle at 100 yards that is accuracy enough. Minute of angle groups from a sporting rifle at 100 yards is outstanding. In my opinion shrinking your groups will be a matter of finding the right load for your gun. You may be asking for more than you and the gun are capable of delivering.

With today's primers and propellants it isn't necessary to clean the bore immediately. After sighting in we wouldn't clean out guns until after we were finished hunting for the week. We cleaned from the breech using a bronze brush and Hoppes copper solvent followed by a lightly oiled patch.

Over the course of my lifetime I have taken more than 30 whitetail deer. Only one was taken at more than 100 yards and that one was taken with a T/C .45 cal. Hawken with open sights. The shot was pure luck.

[muggsy]

There's a book by Warren Page entitled, "The Accurate Rifle" published by Winchester Press in the mid sixties. You may find it at your local library. It may be a bit dated now, but the information it contains is priceless. Warren was a gunsmith and dedicated benchrest shooter. One of the best.

[olympicmotorcars]

Thanks Muggsy