Interesting experience at Leesburg... yikes

[CJB]

I got semi frisked by an undercover LEO at Leesburg bike rally.

I always carry my Kahr PM45 (or less often, PM9j) in my right front pants pocket.

Guy comes up from behind me, and grabs my Kahr through my pants pocket with his left hand. He didn't touch the gun, but the outside of the jeans. His hand didn't go into the pocket. He tugged it twice as I turned around. I was pissed but he ID'd himself as LEO, flashed ID, and said he wanted to make sure of what was in my pocket.

Jeez... I began to spout off... he said complain at the PD main desk, and departed through the sea of people.

I'm still wondering why he never asked to see my carry permit, and I'm really wondering about the legality of his "search". Lord... I don't wanna open a can of worms, but I don't feel to easy with this.

[chrish]

Oops, nevermind, I posted too quickly and was assuming Leesburg VA.

But I don't care what state you are in, at a minimum that's gotta be illegal search w/o probable cause and that ain't probable cause. Plus, he didn't ID himself BEFORE he grabbed you. That's assault.

I'd do more than complain at the PD, I'd have my lawyer on them tomorrow.

[Wolffire99]

Something isn't making sense here. Just because someone has a badge and/or ID doesn't always mean he's law enforcement. Assuming it was a real leo, he just wanted to make sure you had a gun and disappeared? He'd have to be the dumbest LEO ever. Just doesn't make sense.

[Wolffire99]

Almost sounds like somebody who knows how you carry set up some kind of prank.

[jocko]

I got semi frisked by an undercover LEO at Leesburg bike rally.

I always carry my Kahr PM45 (or less often, PM9j) in my right front pants pocket.

Guy comes up from behind me, and grabs my Kahr through my pants pocket with his left hand. He didn't touch the gun, but the outside of the jeans. His hand didn't go into the pocket. He tugged it twice as I turned around. I was pissed but he ID'd himself as LEO, flashed ID, and said he wanted to make sure of what was in my pocket.

Jeez... I began to spout off... he said complain at the PD main desk, and departed through the sea of people.

I'm still wondering why he never asked to see my carry permit, and I'm really wondering about the legality of his "search". Lord... I don't wanna open a can of worms, but I don't feel to easy with this.

someone at the bike rally should be able to put u on to who ever did this or to the authoprities to see if this a real LEO. very strange indeed, odd that if he felt a gun, he didn't pursue furthger to see if u had a permit. something really smells here:blah::blah:

[TheTman]

Makes no sense whatever to me. Why would a cop want to make sure you had a gun in your pocket, unless you were violating some law or something. Makes me wonder if it was a thug with a fake ID making sure who not to mess with. That's just a wild guess, could be a lot of things. Just glad you are OK. I might inquire at the local PD and see if that was an actual cop that did that, or if they do things like that and why.

[GROTMAN]

Did you check your other pockets and make sure nothing missing? Maybe a ploy to distract you while he was doing something else? Not that I'm that I'm all that familiar with how leos do things but that doesn't make sense to me what happened either.

[dkmatthews]

Sounds like this "LEO" was full of it...
It sounds totally suspicious to me.

:001_huh:

[Deano]

That was no LEO. You should at least contact the PD and give them a description of this yahoo. If on the odd chance it really was a LEO, file a complaint.

[Tinman507]

That was complete BS. That was NOT a LEO. I would absolutely contact local PD and find out about this one. If it was a cop, what he did was illegal. Something smells to high heaven.

[jocko]

well evenif it was a cop which I agree he was not and he found out u had a gun on u, woul dhe not further pursue the owner to produce a permit??? It smells.

[CJB]

I had thoughts of an imposter.... and I couldn't make his ID or anything else on what he flashed - but - it looked official enough "at the moment".

The problem with Leesburg - is they bring in a LOT of outside LEO's. Lessburg itself probably has only 25-30 officers, including brass (at best that amount). Its a tiny village. So, to handle 280,000 to 300,000 people, they do bring in help from all over. I saw Broward and Palm Beach Sheriff deps there (I recognize them), Tampa was all over the place, Orlando too, but there were a lot of others in uniform - and who knows what undercover.

I'm going to call, get whatever forms I need to lodge a complaint

[Tinman507]

But I assume you weren't doing anything to warrant a pat down. Just out of the blue like that is baloney. Besides, at a bike rally, you gotta figure better than 50% of the folks are carrying. To single you out for a BS pat down smells. You sure one of your buds didn't pull a goof on you?

[jocko]

I had thoughts of an imposter.... and I couldn't make his ID or anything else on what he flashed - but - it looked official enough "at the moment".

The problem with Leesburg - is they bring in a LOT of outside LEO's. Lessburg itself probably has only 25-30 officers, including brass (at best that amount). Its a tiny village. So, to handle 280,000 to 300,000 people, they do bring in help from all over. I saw Broward and Palm Beach Sheriff deps there (I recognize them), Tampa was all over the place, Orlando too, but there were a lot of others in uniform - and who knows what undercover.

I'm going to call, get whatever forms I need to lodge a complaint

know there are cops and under cover cops at all those bike events. What happened to u is just not the norm in any way I just don't think cops go around doing that stuff, without cause. Unless u had a towel around ur head and half ur face covered, more thanlikely u look just like the other 200K bikers there. It smells CJB, and I am sure u gonna keep us informed on what u find to. My daughter is an attorney in sanford flordia, I dropped her ur original post and ask her opinion, I will hear back and let u know what she thinks..

Not to jack this thread, did anyone read today of the Harley that floate dup on an alaskan beech that was in a box truck type box, that floted in from Japan from the Tusami, Had the vin number on the bike and *** plates still on it, bike was very rusted but somehoe floated over 3000 miles in this box container and ended up an a beech in alaska. They think the box part was actualy off of a box truck kthat was ripped apart in Japan . Hard to believe. I knoew those fokking Harley could ride on water, Now I know they can./ Just sayin.

[CJB]

Actually... I was hanging out, rather bored, waiting for the lady I was escorting to make a selection at the stainless steel ring vendor... bored to death at the biker event! No beer yet. Hell, I only had four all weekend, two each day. We were making our way over to the "Wall of Death" to catch the blues band that was about to go on the mini-stage there.

So no, I wasn't really causing trouble.

Could be I was being profiled in a refined way? Could be they thought I had stolen something? Could be... the cop didn't get what he thought he got hold of? I have no clue.

I'm callin' Leesburg PD tomorrow

[mr surveyor]

and what would have happened if you had wheeled around and popped him in the nose? I figure it would have been totally justified.

[CJB]

maybe so... I have no idea... its just a clueless thing

[muggsy]

Was it your gun or were you just happy to see him? Maybe he was just being friendly. Different strokes for different folks. You should have given him a kiss. That would have thrown him off his game. :)

[jeepster09]

I agree...as a former leo we would just keep a mental note that you may have a gun.....or was he a rookie trying to prove himself to himself that he could spot a gun? I would file complaint but it most likely won't do any good. That would of been good time to of got his picture [without him seeing you do so] with cell phone camera.

[JustinN]

Now, I'm NOT saying this person WAS an LEO, and would definitely be wondering what was happening, but just to clear things up:
1) He did NOT search you, he "frisked" you - look up Terry vs Ohio, which leads me to
2) LEOs need no Probable cause to perform a Terry Frisk - just reasonable suspicion the person is armed, based on articulable facts, which in this case could have been he saw the imprint of what appeared to be a weapon in your pocket when you moved a certain way.

That being said, I would still be suspicious of what happened, as it was a weird situation, but I wouldn't be hiring an attorney to sue the PD for unlawful search, as it was not, and according to Terry vs Ohio, he had to the right to frisk you. It is a VERY loose decision case, basically all you need is the belief the person is armed and reasonable suspicion that a crime has, is, or will be committed - at a bike rally, not to stereotype, but an officer can make that argument very easily.

AND once again, I will end with I still think that situation was bizarre and something wasn't right about it....

[ripley16]

One lesson to be learned; be mindful and vigillant of people sneaking up behind you. Did you have any indication you were being stalked?

[jlottmc]

Justin you bring up Terry v Ohio. Major case that one, thing is an officer has to be able to articulate that suspicion. To walk up and grab hold of a person like that especially without any outward indication of LE status is a no go. We can't do that. To walk off like that is not kosher either. What would have been kosher would be a stop and frisk (more than just the pocket), with articulation and identification. Goes like this:
"I'm officer (fill in the blank) with (fill in the blank) PD, I have reason to believe that you have a weapon, turn around and place your hands on the wall."
Upon finding it, and the officer must be able to tell what the object is with minimal manipulation, then he should be asking for ID, and CHL, while continuing the conversation. Having said all that, I think it was a prank by someone who knows you well. It is also as Ripley says, a lesson in situational awareness.

[wyntrout]

Wow! It's a good thing you're a bit slow on self defense (NOT)!:D Chuck Norris would have handed him his head and I don't know what I would have done, but he could have at least expected a busted nose from my elbow! :eek:

That was an attack or assault and NO LEO would/should act like that. What if you had had NO GUN? What would have been his response?!

Maybe he was looking for a fat WALLET!

I stay away from crowds like that. It's too hard to feel "secure" with people pressing against you and bumping into you. I'm very leery of pickpockets and worse!

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

My gut tells me the guy just wanted you to know that he knew that you had a gun in your pocket. Weather he was LEO or not.
I'm sure there was lots going on and things get rather loose with major events especially with multiple outside agencies involved.
They can get away with a little more transgression because of the identity issues. Who can say which agency he was with.
I suspect he saw it and just wanted you to know that he saw it and didn't want to make a big deal about it.
Still strange, no matter how you look at it.

[jeepster09]

All I can add is that if he was a cop he was an idiot for now putting himself in possible danger.....let's say you were a bad guy and had no permit:40:
he could of got some serious side effects from his actions.:33:

[Barth]

I got semi frisked by an undercover LEO at Leesburg bike rally.

I always carry my Kahr PM45 (or less often, PM9j) in my right front pants pocket.

Guy comes up from behind me, and grabs my Kahr through my pants pocket with his left hand. He didn't touch the gun, but the outside of the jeans. His hand didn't go into the pocket. He tugged it twice as I turned around. I was pissed but he ID'd himself as LEO, flashed ID, and said he wanted to make sure of what was in my pocket.

Jeez... I began to spout off... he said complain at the PD main desk, and departed through the sea of people.

I'm still wondering why he never asked to see my carry permit, and I'm really wondering about the legality of his "search". Lord... I don't wanna open a can of worms, but I don't feel to easy with this.

Putting their hands on you before identifying themselves as an officer?
And dressed in street attire?
This stinks on ice.

If that had happened to me I think something bad would have resulted.
real fast

[Kahrdriver64]

Dude that's just not right. I missed leesburg this year, but I usually go up on Sunday. I always carry my K40 at 5 oclock IWB when I ride further than the end of my street. Any chance your Kahr was printing through your jeans. I always wondered if an LEO would say anything about a carry that was printing. I can't imagine why he wouldn't ask for ID and CCW. I find these guys usually are on fishing expiditions.

[Kahrdriver64]

Putting their hands on you before identifying themselves as an officer?
And dressed in street attire?
This stinks on ice.

If that had happened to me I think something bad would have resulted.
real fast
I agree and you may be right about ICE. I see more and more ICE and other federal agents in places where they have no business these days.

[wyntrout]

The whole incident stinks. If this guy was a thief and was trying to steal a fat wallet, he got more than he bargained for, but put you off by flashing ID and skedaddling through the crowd. IF he WAS a cop and wanted to see if you had a gun... for whatever reason, then why would he act like he did and run?? He WASN'T A COP, but a THIEF! That's the only thing that makes sense! He was a prepared thief, though, able to confuse you and make a getaway.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

Justin you bring up Terry v Ohio. Major case that one, thing is an officer has to be able to articulate that suspicion. To walk up and grab hold of a person like that especially without any outward indication of LE status is a no go. We can't do that. To walk off like that is not kosher either. What would have been kosher would be a stop and frisk (more than just the pocket), with articulation and identification. Goes like this:
"I'm officer (fill in the blank) with (fill in the blank) PD, I have reason to believe that you have a weapon, turn around and place your hands on the wall."
Upon finding it, and the officer must be able to tell what the object is with minimal manipulation, then he should be asking for ID, and CHL, while continuing the conversation. Having said all that, I think it was a prank by someone who knows you well. It is also as Ripley says, a lesson in situational awareness.

agree. like freedom of speech, doesn't mean we can yell fire in a theater either.(if there wasndeed no fire). If this was a true officer, he used zero sense and could have gotten himself hurt big time:blah:

In Terry vs Ohio, from what I read the officer did identify himself and also had observed the 3 fellas for quite awhile in front of a open business. I rally see no resemblance in CJB's case. and to my knowledge none of those 3 had a valid permit either to carry or was even asked to produce one. IN CJB's case this seems like a hit and run thing which I can't see any officer with any brains doing it..

[Chuck54]

I think it was just some dummy letting you know you were "printing".

[JustinN]

I'm in full agreeance that what happened was bizarre and in no way a good idea IF the person WAS in fact LEO....My point was more about the legality of a quick frisk for weapons. In a situation like a bike rally, any officer worth his muster (again, not saying this tool was even an officer, let alone a good one) would be able to articulate why he needed to Frisk CJB. If its an after the fact complaint, it becomes CJB's word against this guys....As dumb as it may be, if this guy was a legitimate officer, I doubt there is little recourse you'd have in this situation, which would turn into a he said/he said situation....

Most of all this is a great learning story for everyone here, especially to think about what you would do in a situation like this. I definitely don't know the details of the situation, and some of the cops I used to work with were not the best, so I can only imagine the quality of officers in other towns (we went through a 1001 hour academy, not just a 470). If it's a crowded event, lots of noise (loud bikes, music, etc) (and again, I have NO IDEA what it was like) he may have said something about being an LEO before the frisk, and if you weren't paying direct attention would you have noticed. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here....and I'm definitely not pointing any fingers at CJB or anything at all, I'm just making an argument of how this could have happened to almost anyone.

I used to work plain clothes, and often all we had to show was just the badge on a chain inside our shirt. If I got that out and yelled police, show me your hands, while pulling a gun, what would most people do? If I'm not close enough for you to clearly see the badge, but you see a gun, do you try to draw yours? If you did, most cops would shoot....but if you didn't, and I wasn't really a cop, now what? Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate, but we all have to consider when wearing a concealed weapon, we now have more options and choices than the other sheeple around us, choices that can lead to deadly consequences very quickly. What is a reasonable amount of notification an officer has to give someone if they believe there is a weapon? Not saying in CJBs instance, as it is weird, but if they are truly investigating someone and see a concealed weapon flash, were told there was one in the pocket, etc...too much warning and the BG has time to pull the weapon....and if it isn't a weapon, you don't want to pull a gun on the guy and prone him out because of his cell phone in his pocket.

It sucks to have your rights violated, or even to feel like they are, but it also sucks to work as a cop where every day there is a chance you aren't coming home because someone would rather kill you than be held accountable for their actions.

Also, I wasn't trying to say CJB was just like Terry v. Ohio, just that Terry v. Ohio says a cop can frisk if they believe a weapon is present and the person has, is, or will commit a crime.

Final Statement - after all my arguing of HOW this could happen, I still don't believe the guy was a real cop. Something bogus was going on....or he was the absolute worst cop ever.

[CJB]

I spoke to LPD today. Got zero. I did find out that there were "over 30 departments" at the event, and undercover, like uniform, always went in pairs.

Was I printing - certainly, but thats totally legal in Florida. Inadvertent or brief intentional flashing (non threatening) is also legal.

I'll say - zero drugs, zero booz, zero nasty, zero attitude, just trying to beat the heat, catch a breeze, wait on the lady I was escorting - who was shopping at one of the 100's of vendors there. I was a good 10 feet or more from her - she had no idea until I told her later what went down.

I'm wondering if the officer was playing a prank on who he thought was a fellow undercover? I have no idea... he didn't look all that surprised when I turned around.

I asked LPD what would have happened if I introduced my elbow to the nose of the person grabbing me from behind. "Probably booked on resisting arrest with force, battery on a law enforcement officer for starters" was the answer.

Cops always get their way on the street it seems.

[yqtszhj]

One thing there CJB, being you're in Florida like someone else said, I bet 40-50% were carrying. Now here in AL the numbers are a bit less. 20-30% most likely. depending on th event.

[jocko]

probably best to put this behind u now as it has went as far as u can push it, u were legal, what this guy did was certainly IMO not according to any rules but again down the road it would be his word agaisnt yours and as a biker,u probably would be consiudered guilty JUST BECAUSE. Makes no sense sometimes.

The thing that gets me is if he felt u were a possable bad guy and now knows u had a gun in ur pocket why would have he not pursued it further to make u now produce a permit instead of just walking away.
that makes no sense. If you had no permit then this officer would have been credited for a good arrest. We will never know.

[skater4790]

When a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him or her to reasonably suspect criminal activity may be occurring and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, the officer might approach and briefly detain the subjects for the purpose of conducting a limited investigation. The officer must identify himself or herself as a police officer and may make reasonable inquiries. If after initial investigation the officer still has a reasonable fear for the safety of himself and others, the officer may conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing in an attempt to discover weapons that might be used to assault him or her.

[ScottSouth66]

You weren't following to close to any patch holders were you? I ask because back in my wilder days I rode and occasionally hung out with members of a couple clubs. The prez usually was WELL protected by a sgt at arms or assistants,and unless you were close to the prez or a club member they wouldn't let folks they didn't know close to him with weapons.

Of course they wouldn't pull any b/s like impersonate LEOs,they'd just stop you and tell you to leave with the piece. So,looks like you sir,were MOLESTED,I'd seek counseling,,,, :D

[knkali]

we have talked about profiling on this forum and that is what it feels like on the receiving end. You are at a bike event. That equates to lots of scum bags( op excluded). You are printing. He is letting you know that the force is present so keep your sheet tight. Nothing more. Have a cold one and chill. If you would have taken a poke at him thinking the guy was not a cop or not sure he was a cop, there would have been 20 of his UC boys wolf packing the hell out of you and you would lose and a story would be made to make you a scumb bag. That's bike events--like it or not. Ever ride up to a motel and be denied a room knowing 100% there are vacancies. If you look 1%er or are a 1%er you will have to deal with these things. Now if you look like an accountant getting off his Honda Goldwing and you got this kind of treatment, then I am full of caca and forget everything I said.

[jocko]

goldwiners always get priority rooms over Harley riders, don't u know that???Jus sayin

[ScottSouth66]

I was a biker back when ya pulled up to a light and everybody in the car next to you locked the doors and avoided eye contact,heh heh. Nowdays if your bike sports lots of chrome and chopped long they thumbs up ya like your Jessie James or some such.
I remember when me and a few guys would go for a ride,we'd get a police escort,OUT of town. My my times they are a changing,hell,I can't even afford a LAWNMOWER with Harley Davidson stamped on it,the Yups pushed the prices into the ozone... I ride a Nissan 2 door these days,sad....
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg707/scaled.php?server=707&filename=001arun.jpg&res=landing

[Armybrat]

Maybe he just thought you were "glad to see him"? :D

[knkali]

When God created the shovelhead, he then rested.........

I have met some very solid people during my bike years to be fair. People that I would trust my life with. Hardworking and honest. Lived with a code of conduct that would make the world a lot better if more people where like them.

[CJB]

I'm done with the incident.

There were not too many patch holders there on early Saturday evening - that I saw. There are a lot of folks with patches - vet groups (ALR, VFW, MilVets, etc), masonic and other shine and/or civic group riders, ABATE (moi included), and social riders that are non-MC's. Dunno if cops know the difference?

Its all over... nothing to see here... move along... move along <smiles>

Seriously... this thread went way beyond what I'd have considered it to go, but a lot of useful info came out too.

[Kahrdriver64]

That's the darn truth! No matter what the LEO does to a citizen these days he comes up smelling like roses and the citizen comes up the loser. If you had capped this guy, very likely you would never have seen a jail cell, your lawyer, or the judge. It would have been open season.

[Bawanna]

Lot of LEO's shaking their heads right now kahrdriver but in many cases you are probably correct.

I was told early on that Law Enforcement is the one job where you can do everything right and still get fired or die.

I wish we had closure on this incident and knew exactly who the dude was and what his intentions were but I fear that just ain't gonna happen.

[knkali]

That's the darn truth! No matter what the LEO does to a citizen these days he comes up smelling like roses and the citizen comes up the loser. If you had capped this guy, very likely you would never have seen a jail cell, your lawyer, or the judge. It would have been open season.

I respectfully feel that is not true. The op was in a high risk population and IMHO was profiled and made aware that there is no room for horseplay. While I agree that if the op took a poke at the guy in an effort to protect his weapon from an unidentified "LEO" he would have serious problems, that is par for the course.

LEO have it tough. A lot is expected from them in an increasingly troubled society. IMO they are underpaid for what they do. Are there are few bad one? Yep but the majority of them are people doing a tough job.

[Wolffire99]

30 departments at a bike rally? Wow.

[ripley16]

I was told early on that Law Enforcement is the one job where you can do everything right and still get fired or die.

There are many jobs that qualify for stress or danger. Police work is just one of many.

[jocko]

kinda hard to believe that to, but it is a big rally and the officers get free looks at the biker gals as a perk.

[Bawanna]

kinda hard to believe that to, but it is a big rally and the officers get free looks at the biker gals as a perk.

Sort of like Jessica Simpson in cosmoline?

[9026543]

Sounds like a pick pocket to me. Diverting your attention to your gun while he lifted something else.

[Tinman507]

szkgylvDYA4

[knkali]

Sounds like a pick pocket to me. Diverting your attention to your gun while he lifted something else.

Could be. That takes bigg balls to pick pockets at a bike event. Pick the wrong pocket at the wrong time and its lights out. In my best bevis and ********...."that would be cool"

[jlottmc]

Justin I am in complete agreement with you. Our academy is 977 hours, and everything I have seen to date is on par with what you said. Jocko, Terry was pre-CHL laws (1966). Skater, that was pretty much what I was getting at. I still say there is no way that was LEO. If I thought you were in violation of the law, we would have a conversation about it, and I would have plenty of backup (also preferably in a less crowded area). I'm not clear about the resisting charge, it could be argued several ways including you were a lawful permit holder trying to retain your weapon, the assault was not started by you, and the "LEO" did not identify himself before grabbing your junk. I could and likely would take that and run with it. Just my .02

[Kahrdriver64]

One of the things I find intriguing is the 30 departments working the rally. I've been to the leesburg rally a number of times and it is night and day different from bike week. 30 dept's. tells me some were Feds. Based on my 15 plus years in fl, fhp and FDLE are the only ones I trust to always act reasonably and have the highest levels of professionalism. Now put the possibility of Feds in the mix and I'm less likely to be back to leesburg. We live in strange times. No disrespect to the Leo's on here, but I don't trust yuh.

[jocko]

do u think maybe they over inflated that amount of departmetns. That seems waqy out of whack IMO.