Shield vs. PM9

[Dooger]

Just fondled the Shield and.....then I ordered the matte black PM9!!!

Should have it at the beginning of neXt week!!!

Got some good links for the break in and cleaning?

[Prowler]

Congrats Dooger and welcome to the forum. You can find info in the tech section of this site http://kahrtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27 Look at the sticky for Kahr Lube Diagram and also Proper Prep of a New Kahr. You will love your PM9 awesome gun!!

[jocko]

Just fondled the Shield and.....then I ordered the matte black PM9!!!

Should have it at the beginning of net week....l

Got some good links for the break in and cleaning?

IMO a very wise decision.

[crazymailman]

Wise decision indeed!

[Barth]

I remember seeing a compact 9mm shoot out with 6 of the most popular guns.
This was pre-shield, but included the Kimber Solo and Ruger LC9.
The Kahr PM9 compared well in all categories and took overall honors.

It is one of best, if not the best, of the micro 9mm guns available today.

If I didn't already have an 11.1 oz 38 +P pocket pistol,
I'd have a PM9/CM9 myself.

[O'Dell]

I'm sure the Shield is a fine pistol, it is after all an M&P, but in size and capacity it's closer to the CW9 than the PM9. It's also 3 or 4 ozs heavier than either.

[Sage]

Hello Dooger. I bought my first Kahr, a PM9 a few weeks ago. It felt a little tight out of the box, but after 600 rounds it doesn't feel like the same gun. It has loosened up and is soooo smooth. I really like this gun and I hope you do like yours.
I encourage you to follow the prep and lube recommendations found in the tech section as suggested by Prowler.

[mser]

This was a response to a post on the S&W forum. Nobody in the thread mentioned anything about the PM9 until this post popped up. The post and my response are below in italics.



Originally Posted by XXXXXXXXXXXX http://smith-wessonforum.com/images/blue_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/247534-shieldsteria.html#post136494175)
OP must be a Kahr PM9 owner. I can see why their panties are twisted. S&W came out with a better gun with a better trigger with an extra round capacity that is just slightly bigger for $250 less.

My Response -
I happen to be a long time and extremely satisfied owner of a PM9. I also have a set of his and hers Shields. The Shield a better gun than the PM9? Subjective at best. Depends on who you ask. Answer is strictly opinion. Shield trigger bettter than the PM9 trigger? Again, subjective. Although it is indeed quite long, I personally prefer the smooth trigger of my PM9 to the gritty trigger of my Shield, which will be remedied by the addition of parts obtained from Apex Tactical as were the triggers of my 9C and 45C. One extra round capacity while just slightly bigger and for less money? No doubt. Both great pistols. Quality, reliability and performance. Although I have several to choose from, the PM9 has been my favorite carry pistol for many years. Will it be replaced by the Shield? Absolutely not. Will it have to move over to make room for the NKOTB? Absolutely. I welcome the addition.



I feel fortunate to be able to have both pistols in my collection. The Shield is indeed slightly larger. Fully loaded with Speer GDHP my PM9 weighs approximately 19 oz. while the Shield weighs approximately 24 oz.

And finally, welcome to the Kahr Forum Dooger. As stated in previous posts, I'm sure you'll love your PM9. It is indeed a top quality pistol and there is a wealth of knowledge and experience from a lot of the people in here.

[JFootin]

"Will it have to move over to make room for the NKOTB? Absolutely. I welcome the addition."

WTH is a NKOTB?

[PB22POP]

I would guess "new kid on the block".

[Markis82]

This was a response to a post on the S&W forum. Nobody in the thread mentioned anything about the PM9 until this post popped up. The post and my response are below in italics.



Originally Posted by XXXXXXXXXXXX http://smith-wessonforum.com/images/blue_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/247534-shieldsteria.html#post136494175)
OP must be a Kahr PM9 owner. I can see why their panties are twisted. S&W came out with a better gun with a better trigger with an extra round capacity that is just slightly bigger for $250 less.

My Response -
I happen to be a long time and extremely satisfied owner of a PM9. I also have a set of his and hers Shields. The Shield a better gun than the PM9? Subjective at best. Depends on who you ask. Answer is strictly opinion. Shield trigger bettter than the PM9 trigger? Again, subjective. Although it is indeed quite long, I personally prefer the smooth trigger of my PM9 to the gritty trigger of my Shield, which will be remedied by the addition of parts obtained from Apex Tactical as were the triggers of my 9C and 45C. One extra round capacity while just slightly bigger and for less money? No doubt. Both great pistols. Quality, reliability and performance. Although I have several to choose from, the PM9 has been my favorite carry pistol for many years. Will it be replaced by the Shield? Absolutely not. Will it have to move over to make room for the NKOTB? Absolutely. I welcome the addition.



I feel fortunate to be able to have both pistols in my collection. The Shield is indeed slightly larger. Fully loaded with Speer GDHP my PM9 weighs approximately 19 oz. while the Shield weighs approximately 24 oz.

And finally, welcome to the Kahr Forum Dooger. As stated in previous posts, I'm sure you'll love your PM9. It is indeed a top quality pistol and there is a wealth of knowledge and experience from a lot of the people in here.Good response! However, a more accurate comparison would be the Shield vs the CW9. Their size and price are about equal. Which leaves the smooth trigger of the Kahr putting it over the top. I won't mention the unwanted safety on the Shield. Opps, did I say that out loud?

[itsthelaw]

My disclaimer... I have owned 3 M&Ps in 45 and 9mm and I think the 9c is a great gun. S&W is one of my favorite manufacturers. I have held a Shield, but did not buy it and have not shot it. I own 2 CM9s and carry both the 9c and CM9.

Comparing the Shield to the PM9 gives the Shield an automatic price advantage. How about comparing it to the CM9? Then the trigger becomes subjective. The Shield is the biggest and heaviest (or one of the top 2) in the small 9mm category. You CANNOT pocket carry it unless you are HUGE. It also weighs a ton. Yes, the Shield has one more round in it, but i can carry an extra mag for my CM9 and still have less weight on my body with 13 rounds. The Shield is slightly slimmer, which is very important to carrying, but it is also quite a bit taller.

The Shield is actually pretty close to the PM45 in size and weight. In fact, the PM45 has a shorter height and a shorter OAL. The PM45 also weighs less with 5+1 in 45ACP. The Shield wins in thickness, of course, which is important to carrying. THe Shield also wins in price.

I just don't understand what niche the Shield fits. People will run out and buy it because it was hyped and it is from the M&P line, but I predict that the excitement will decrease quickly. It is too big for the small 9mm line and cannot even be considered a pocket 9. It isn't even the smallest gun in the small 45 category.

I like the M&P triggers without the kits, and they are great with the kit, but the kit costs money too. I love the kahr triggers and they keep getting better over time. In my subjective and objective view, the Kahr is King.

[ParabellumJ]

Just as a point of reference on the Shield, it is only 2 oz lighter than a Glock 19 unloaded, yet holds 8 fewer rounds with a flush mag. As far as weight goes M&P missed the boat for sub compacts. I researched every available 9mm sub compact carry option and compared size, weight, capacity, quality, price, etc. Then I went out and bought a CM9. Had the Shield been available at that time I still would have bought a CM9.

[jocko]

It is amazng to me that most all the big names have come out with a sub 9 and yet kahr still prevals most all the time in weight and size. It should make most kahr owners appreciate the design and simp[licity of their guns. Kahrs trigger system, well u kinow!!!

[JFootin]

I think if you compare it to the Kahr that is closest in size, the CW9, the Kahr wins. You'd have to spend extra money on a trigger kit to improve on the Shield's trigger. No such expenditure is needed with the Kahr though a 3 pack of 5 lb striker springs is $7 from Wolff's.

The Shield seems to be a fine weapon, but the back of the grip is sort of narrow and I wonder how that feels for aiming and recoil, compared to the CW9. Hopefully, some comparison tests will be coming forth.

[340pd]

Thank you all for bringing me back to reality. I was hotter than two hamsters humping in a wool sock for a shield. I almost paid full retail for one a couple of days ago. My local LGS sells them for $399 but he is out of stock. The reality is, when I carry, I want the lightest, smallest gun I can control. My PM9 fits everything in that category. It shoots with any gun in my collection and I carry it daily. You all have helped delayed my purchase. I have stepped away from the ledge and am taking deep breaths.

[molar]

2 weeks ago I walked into the LGS with the intent to buy a subcompact 9. I looked at both the Shield and CM9. The shield was quite a bit bigger. It was actually taller than a G26. Yes, the Glock may be a little wider, but as we all know, it is the grip that is usually responsible for printing. I think it is easier to conceal the G26 IWB than the shield and you gain 3 more rounds. I have no need for the shield. Too big to pocket carry and it would be questionable for ankle carry. I walked out with a CM9 and couldn't be happier.

[Mike_B]

"Will it have to move over to make room for the NKOTB? Absolutely. I welcome the addition."

WTH is a NKOTB?

I was wondering too. Thanks PB....

[BEARDOG]

It is amazng to me that most all the big names have come out with a sub 9 and yet kahr still prevals most all the time in weight and size. It should make most kahr owners appreciate the design and simp[licity of their guns. Kahrs trigger system, well u kinow!!!

This is so TRUE!

I was just saying this the other day. How happy I am that I picked my Kahrs and have been able to use them for the past couple years now.

I can't believe the other big manufactures keep missing the mark set by KAHR. They all knew way ahead of time (Years actually) what they had to beat to be the best small 9mm..
.
They knew the specs, what... size/weight/cap./trigger/safety/etc. that Kahr has.......BUT, They still couldn't /didn't build their new guns to beat Kahr!!!
It amazed me every time a new Co. made a big f'ing deal announcing a new small 9mm(Ruger, Sig, SA, etc. and now S&W) and I would get excited at first... and then find the specs. and every time I found out I already had a better, smaller, lighter gun in my two Kahrs (a CW9 and my CM9.)

Really, I am not a fanboy and would have bought any QUALITY brand small 9mm that would top my Kahr's features. But time and time again they just do not.

This is Kahrs focus... small, lightweight, high quality concealed carry weapons. And they do it better then ANY other gun manufacture.

[shipwreck]

Guess I'm gonna be the unpopular one here. I have a PM9. I went to rent a P9 last Saturday... I can't carry my normal IWB gun due to health problems. I wanted a gun just slightly bigger than a PM9... I thought the Kahr P9 might be it... I was hoping the little extra size would make a difference in recoil.

To me, it didn't really. As an afterthought, I rented the Shield. I shot it and loved it. I tracked one down and got it on Monday. I'll be shooting it in the next couple of days.

If it works with no issues (as I expect it to), I will be selling my Kahr PM9 next week, probably. With the shorter magazine, the gun is almost the size of the PM9. And, even with the extended mag, it still fits well in my cargo pants pocket

[itsthelaw]

Guess I'm gonna be the unpopular one here. I have a PM9. I went to rent a P9 last Saturday... I can't carry my normal IWB gun due to health problems. I wanted a gun just slightly bigger than a PM9... I thought the Kahr P9 might be it... I was hoping the little extra size would make a difference in recoil.

To me, it didn't really. As an afterthought, I rented the Shield. I shot it and loved it. I tracked one down and got it on Monday. I'll be shooting it in the next couple of days.

If it works with no issues (as I expect it to), I will be selling my Kahr PM9 next week, probably. With the shorter magazine, the gun is almost the size of the PM9. And, even with the extended mag, it still fits well in my cargo pants pocket


Hey Ship! Whatever works for you, works for you. I may still own a Shield one day, but I have also stepped away from the ledge too. In anticipation of the Shield, it was at the VERY top of my list. I figured it would be a smaller, lighter gun that would make an impact on the small 9 market. Since it was released, I have bought 2 CM9s and now have a PM45, P380 (yeah crazy) and a 1911 at the top of my list. Once I buy my first 1911, the Shield may not even be on the list anymore!

This is a Kahr board, but I was a M&P fan before I was a Kahr fan.

[jocko]

humm: I wonder why some comment the shiled is so thin, when it is actualyt wider than the kahr PM9 or cm9. .95 vs. .90. Just saying

I hope shipwreck enjoys the shield, it should be a good gun, one will never convince me it is more pleasant to shoot than a P9

shield cm9
3.1" bbl 3.0 bbl
6.1" long 5.42" long
4.6" height 4.0 height
19 oz 14oz
.95 width .90 width
7 rd 6 rd
melonite slide stainless slide
$450 msrp $517 msrp

[BEARDOG]

humm: I wonder why some comment the shiled is so thin, when it is actualyt wider than the kahr PM9 or cm9. .95 vs. .90. Just saying

I hope shipwreck enjoys the shield, it should be a good gun, one will never convince me it is more pleasant to shoot than a P9

shield cm9
3.1" bbl 3.0 bbl
6.1" long 5.42" long
4.6" height 4.0 height
19 oz 14oz
.95 width .90 width
7 rd 6 rd
melonite slide stainless slide
$450 msrp $517 msrp

Jocko, Those #'s are just FACTS... LOL:D

People prefer talking about guns in vague variables like... "almost" the same size "feels like" the same weight. "fits" in my pocket ???
You know they are ALL HANDguns so they all got to be HAND size to start with. I can "fit" my Para P-12 45 in my pocket too. That doesn't mean I would say it is "almost" the same size as my CM9 and just as good for pocket carry!!!...Just saying... Whatever floats peoples boats though, me I like my Kahrs for a CCW.
I like the M&P's too, I almost bought a MP9c but ended up getting a G26 instead. If I want to carry more capacity and a larger gun then my Kahr's then my G26 is my next step up.

[shipwreck]

I paid $395 for mine.

When you compare the two guns, and put one and the other in the pocket - honestly, the size doesn't really matter. They are close enough that one being just a tiny bit larger is largely irrelevant. But, the Shield is a softer shooter.

Anyway, if you like the Kahr more - then fine. I have owned my PM9 for 2 years now. Its always worked. I just like the SHield more now.

[O'Dell]

The Shield is a lot bigger than the PM9 and even slightly larger than the CW and P9. It's also quite a bit heavier than any of the three. I've never had a recoil problem with any Kahr including the PM45. If the Shield has a better controlled recoil than the Kahr 9's it because of its weight. I'll nearly always go with the lighter pistol in any category. That's why my belt carry is a CW45 and my pocket carry is a PM9.

[WilliamG]

I can't even understand why the comparison comes up, really. The Shield is hugely bigger than the PM9, and when it comes to pocket carry, every inch and ounce makes a gargantuan difference.

Here's a great, visibly unbiased review of both guns side by side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuFidpwtxI

And here's a review of the Shield vs the 9C:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hERsGIcxQMY&feature=relmfu

I was seriously considering a Shield, except for a few reasons:

1.) It's much bigger than the PM9
2.) That safety is far too small in a SHTF situation, and the trigger is far too short for me to pocket carry without SOME worry without it engaged. The PM9 is the sweet spot for a trigger with no need for a safety

That said, the Shield is going to sell like hotcakes. It's a great "small" pistol, but I don't think it's small enough to be in the sub-compact market (just my opinion). But the price of the Shield is FANTASTIC, and the support for sights/holsters out of the gate is fantastic. Let's not forget the Shield will come with a LIFETIME WARRANTY. That just flat out rocks.

Also, the Shield is like the other M&Ps, so the takedown procedure is sooooo easy by comparison to the PM9, which - let's be honest - can be a tad fiddly: Line up the notches, stab at the slide-release lever. Fiddly recoil spring, having to push down on the barrel to reassemble etc. Not exactly simple. Sure, you get used to it, but the M&P line is a DREAM to take down and put together. Probably the easiest gun to take apart that I've ever used.


The more competition the better, but I think people who hold both the Shield and the PM9 will pick the PM9 for POCKET carry. For IWB holsters, the Shield may get the nod if you like the other aspects of the gun. Also, it's an M&P/S&W, which let's be honest - is going to sell better than the Kahr just in name alone.

THAT said, it's crazy how much more expensive the PM9 is! I paid, what... $750 including tax for my PM9/stainless w/ night sights + $200-ish for the Crimson Trace Grips. That's nutty...

For reference, I also owned a Sig P290 for a while, and it was huuuuge compared to the PM9 in my pocket. And yet the P290 is considered a sub-compact, too.

Different strokes, right? :D

PS I used to own an M&P 9 Pro Series, and didn't like the trigger, so I sold it. Too notchy.

[bonjorno2]

my p290 i sold had the worst trigger i've ever felt on a sig.... my kel tec's have better triggers than that p290! Great video thanks for sharing that!

[jeepster09]

The Shield was one of my favorite shows.....

[itsthelaw]

If you can wear cargo pants everywhere you go and dont ever have to hit a brisk walk or slight run, THEN the weight and size won't matter. If you are an average gun owner, the Shield will be on your hip. I bet a lot of people have already realized iy, but won't admit it. Kinda like those that voted for Obama. Shields will be available used within 6 months. Great job by S&W for building the hype and unloading a bunch of guns and $ on gear. That is great marketing. It won't be a long-term hit. Next time they try the hype, it better be something great! Remember...I've owned 3 M&Ps and carry a 9c when I can.

[itsthelaw]

The Shield was one of my favorite shows.....

Hahahahahahahahahaha...The Commish!

[Russ]

Congrats Dooger and welcome to the forum. You can find info in the tech section of this site http://kahrtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27 Look at the sticky for Kahr Lube Diagram and also Proper Prep of a New Kahr. You will love your PM9 awesome gun!!

Dooger

The Shield I have read doesn't require any prep and there are hundreds of posts of folks shooting the Shield with zero problems. I don't think we can compare the two guns. The Shield which I just purchased today is about the size of a Glock 26 only thinner. Smaller guns like the PM9 beats the Shield for pocket conceal but do to the size will never be as reliable as the Shield. Sorry you can't argue with the laws of physics.

I am sure you will enjoy your PM9 if you are looking for a good pocket gun.

Russ

[Markis82]

If you can wear cargo pants everywhere you go and dont ever have to hit a brisk walk or slight run, THEN the weight and size won't matter. If you are an average gun owner, the Shield will be on your hip. I bet a lot of people have already realized iy, but won't admit it. Kinda like those that voted for Obama. Shields will be available used within 6 months. Great job by S&W for building the hype and unloading a bunch of guns and $ on gear. That is great marketing. It won't be a long-term hit. Next time they try the hype, it better be something great! Remember...I've owned 3 M&Ps and carry a 9c when I can.Just like the Bodyguard line. Sold a bunch the first month on the market, then DOA. People will realize the gun has no nitch. Too big and too small. We'll see them on sale for $325 before the summer is over. With the last couple of gun designs, it seems like S&W is just not grasping what people want.

[O'Dell]

I'm sure the Shield is reliable. My compact 40 and 45 M&P's were 100%, but then so have been all seven of my Kahrs. Personally, for a carry gun, I'll take small and light every time. Therefore, I'll keep my PM9, MK40, CW40, and CW45 and won't worry about buying a Shield.

[itsthelaw]

Just like the Bodyguard line. Sold a bunch the first month on the market, then DOA. People will realize the gun has no nitch. Too big and too small. We'll see them on sale for $325 before the summer is over. With the last couple of gun designs, it seems like S&W is just not grasping what people want.


I bought a Bodyguard 380 and sold it a month later for the same price I paid. Thank goodness! Maybe that is why I have not fallen for the hype this time. I am sure the Shield is not the POS that the BG380 is, but the whole marketing scheme is the same. They are going to burn a lot of good customer relationships when the value of their guns keeps falling after 6-12 months.

[Russ]

I have owned a Kahr CM9 Beretta Nano and now a Shield. I shot 650 rounds through the Kahr 1334 through the Nano and heading to the range today with my Shield. Every gun has strengths and weaknesses. I believe the single biggest weakness for Kahr which would be an easy fix is their magazine. Many of the issues with FTF nose dive I believe would be resolved with a higher quality magazine. It was completely unacceptable that I had to mess with the Kahr magazine just to get it to drop free.

The Nano is the easiest and quickest to field strip and I would still own it if it was reliable but like the CM9 it was not 100% and I am not willing to own a CCW that requires a degree in gunsmith and will always leave me wondering if it will deliver if a life is on the line.

I can't speak yet for the Shield but if you look At the M&P forum and compare it to the Beretta and Kahr forum the Shield is not receiving complaints from the masses of the gun not operating properly.

I will not argue the CM9 was a delight to pocket over the Nano and Shield but I need a gun that I know will always go bang and if you are into odds Google Kahr CM9 FTF FTE and repeat for the Nano and shield and the numbers will tell a story that will not be pretty for either the Kahr or Nano.

I realize the Shield has only been out a few weeks so there will not be near the data but for the Nano the FTE issue surfaced immediately and I would imagine if you took a random month and statistically compared the three for forum complaints my money is on the Shield it will come out on top as receiving fewer failure complaints and for me a CCW has got to go bang right out of the box with zero break in or prep. Proper grip or certain ammo. No excuses pull the trigger and it goes bang that is what I am looking for and if the Shield can deliver she has a home if not I will divorce and look for # 4 CCW.

Russ

[jocko]

Dooger

The Shield I have read doesn't require any prep and there are hundreds of posts of folks shooting the Shield with zero problems. I don't think we can compare the two guns. The Shield which I just purchased today is about the size of a Glock 26 only thinner. Smaller guns like the PM9 beats the Shield for pocket conceal but do to the size will never be as reliable as the Shield. Sorry you can't argue with the laws of physics.

I am sure you will enjoy your PM9 if you are looking for a good pocket gun.

Russ

I ain't buying that "reliable" stuff. Kahrs are small they are extremely reliable. It's ok to defend the shiled if that is ones preference, it is a good gun, but bring along any shiled u want and lots of ammo and my worn ol PM9 with over 32K through it will stillbe there at the end, of the shoot, not saying ur shiled won't but ????? I have proven my PM9 with over 32K rounds out of it. It is not heresay. Indeed I can argue with the laws of physics I might not be right but I can argue. Humm comes to mind that smarter people than I have said a Bee cannot fly due to its small wings and massive weight--Humm. I think the bees proved that sh!t wrong. To many fokking levers on the left side. Just sayin.

enjoy ur shield, it is a good gun no doubt.

[Russ]

I ain't buying that "reliable" stuff. Kahrs are small they are extremely reliable. It's ok to defend the shiled if that is ones preference, it is a good gun, but bring along any shiled u want and lots of ammo and my worn ol PM9 with over 32K through it will stillbe there at the end, of the shoot, not saying ur shiled won't but ????? I have proven my PM9 with over 32K rounds out of it. It is not heresay. Indeed I can argue with the laws of physics I might not be right but I can argue. Humm comes to mind that smarter people than I have said a Bee cannot fly due to its small wings and massive weight--Humm. I think the bees proved that sh!t wrong. Just sayin

enjoy ur shield, it is a good gun no doubt.

Jocko

I am not intetested in starting an argument. This reminds me of the arguments I had as a boy with my neighbor friend over which was better Chevy or Ford. I use to remind him Ford stands for "found on road dead" and he would remind me that GMC stands for "garbage man's companion" well life experiences have a way of changing a persons views. As adults I own a Honda and my boyhood friend owns a Toyota.

You are one person and you are a skilled gunsmith and you are willing to put in the time to ensure your firearm is working properly. However for me I am not as devoted to learn the gunsmith trade. My background is numbers and I go with odds and if you look at the odds not just your experience but 100s of gun owners the odds right now will suggest the Shield is more reliable and that is why I drive a Honda and why I purchased a Shield. For me I want to turn the key and it will start without a lot of under the hood tinkering and the same goes for my CCW. Pull the trigger and it goes bang.

Russ

[knash33]

I thought it was Fix Or Repair Daily.

KAHR must be an acronym for something.

[sharpetop]

I'm sure the Shield is a fine pistol, it is after all an M&P, but in size and capacity it's closer to the CW9 than the PM9. It's also 3 or 4 ozs heavier than either.

^^^^ this! I too fondled a shield this past week. I'll be keeping my CW9.

[bonjorno2]

it's simple... if you need a pocket gun go with a kahr, if you need a gun iwb with a safety get a shield. I just hope people carrying with a safety don't think it's easy to rotate the selector to fire under stress! Takes tons of practice and time is everything in a SD situation (most of the time)!

[itsthelaw]

A guy throws on his sweat pants in the morning when his wife asks him to run to the convenience store for some coffee. He walks into his closet and looks at the Shield that he just bought with the cash he got from selling his CM9, and he thinks to himself, "where the hell am I going to stuff that thing in these pants?", so he rationalizes that it won't happen this time.

What's the probability of the Shield firing and shooting the BG at the store when it is in his closet? Most numbers people could easily come to the conclusion that a gun is not needed, because the probability of needing it is extremely low. In my case, the probability of trying to stuff a Shield somewhere on my body is pretty low. As a matter of fact, as a probability guy, I am more likely to take the M&P9c with at least 12 rounds in it.

The Shield doesn't fit. In the video posted by another member, it is thinner than a 9c, but higher and only slightly shorter. It also loses to the CM9, because mine are 100% reliable...same as my 9c. The Shield was a mistake for S&W and those that purchased it. I won't even buy one in October when they are $300.

Check out the M&P forums. The complaints are starting. The trigger isn't what they said it would be so people are changing them out already. There are accuracty questions. The mags are not dropping free of the grip. Even the biggest fanboys and most outspoken, have cooled down a bit on the gun. One even said that the 8rd mag doesn't need to drop free, because it will be the backup or second mag you use. Huh?

If you like 9mm, own a CM9 for the trip to the store and 90% of your carry situations, and get a M&P9c for the other 10%.

[vaflash1950]

My PM9 is the best overall gun (for me) I have had, and I've had plenty. Accurate, light (so to speak) and easy to conceal. The shield is a nice gun, but too heavy for my taste. I have 1000 rounds through my PM and not a hitch.

[Joe L]

I shot a Shield on Thursday. It is a nice gun. I shot it well. Liked it better than any Glock. But I'll stick with my two Kahr's for carry, and my SIGs, and my one and only CZ for range/game guns.

[Joe L]

I thought it was Fix Or Repair Daily.



Nope. "First On Race Day"

(I have a turbocharged 99 Mustang DOHC):):)

Joe

[jocko]

Jocko

I am not intetested in starting an argument. This reminds me of the arguments I had as a boy with my neighbor friend over which was better Chevy or Ford. I use to remind him Ford stands for "found on road dead" and he would remind me that GMC stands for "garbage man's companion" well life experiences have a way of changing a persons views. As adults I own a Honda and my boyhood friend owns a Toyota.

You are one person and you are a skilled gunsmith and you are willing to put in the time to ensure your firearm is working properly. However for me I am not as devoted to learn the gunsmith trade. My background is numbers and I go with odds and if you look at the odds not just your experience but 100s of gun owners the odds right now will suggest the Shield is more reliable and that is why I drive a Honda and why I purchased a Shield. For me I want to turn the key and it will start without a lot of under the hood tinkering and the same goes for my CCW. Pull the trigger and it goes bang.

Russ



thats deep man, really deep. I'm wordless. :banplease:

u seem to be the minority though "here" with your commernts. Wonder what the statistical odds of that is???Just sayin

[jocko]

A guy throws on his sweat pants in the morning when his wife asks him to run to the convenience store for some coffee. He walks into his closet and looks at the Shield that he just bought with the cash he got from selling his CM9, and he thinks to himself, "where the hell am I going to stuff that thing in these pants?", so he rationalizes that it won't happen this time.

What's the probability of the Shield firing and shooting the BG at the store when it is in his closet? Most numbers people could easily come to the conclusion that a gun is not needed, because the probability of needing it is extremely low. In my case, the probability of trying to stuff a Shield somewhere on my body is pretty low. As a matter of fact, as a probability guy, I am more likely to take the M&P9c with at least 12 rounds in it.

The Shield doesn't fit. In the video posted by another member, it is thinner than a 9c, but higher and only slightly shorter. It also loses to the CM9, because mine are 100% reliable...same as my 9c. The Shield was a mistake for S&W and those that purchased it. I won't even buy one in October when they are $300.

Check out the M&P forums. The complaints are starting. The trigger isn't what they said it would be so people are changing them out already. There are accuracty questions. The mags are not dropping free of the grip. Even the biggest fanboys and most outspoken, have cooled down a bit on the gun. One even said that the 8rd mag doesn't need to drop free, because it will be the backup or second mag you use. Huh?

If you like 9mm, own a CM9 for the trip to the store and 90% of your carry situations, and get a M&P9c for the other 10%.

come on, surely ur jesting, how can there be complaints on the SHIELD, statistically it just cannot be?????:banplease: Just sayin

First time I heard of SHIELD, and all the rave reviews,,,, I went to the wal mart pharmacy and ask for a 6 pak of SHIELDS and they told me I needed to go to sporting goods for that:banplease: Just sayin

It certainly wouldhave been cheaper than tryng to bid on the BMW wonder motorcyle.

[WilliamG]

lol there's quite some fanboyism here, isn't there? :D

Let's try and be objective here, shall we?

The Shield sucks and will DEFINITELY fall apart before 1,000 rounds, and the Kahr PM9 is ten times as reliable, five times as light as the Shield, and my PM9 holds way more rounds than a Shield. Period. The End. FACT.

PS :banplease:

[O'Dell]

Jocko


You are one person and you are a skilled gunsmith and you are willing to put in the time to ensure your firearm is working properly. However for me I am not as devoted to learn the gunsmith trade. My background is numbers and I go with odds and if you look at the odds not just your experience but 100s of gun owners the odds right now will suggest the Shield is more reliable and that is why I drive a Honda and why I purchased a Shield. For me I want to turn the key and it will start without a lot of under the hood tinkering and the same goes for my CCW. Pull the trigger and it goes bang.

Russ

Like Jocko, I don't buy that either. I'm certainly not a skilled gunsmith. I've never even attempted to take the grips of one of my 1911's, let along tear into the top end of a Kahr or any other semi for that matter. In the last five years, I have had seven kahrs and still have four. During that time I have had zero problems with any of the Kahrs, even during break in. I do know how to prep a new gun and do so with every pistol I buy. Unfortunately, that's not always enough. My STI had to go back to the factory for a new barrel and recoil assy and my Kimber would not feed properly with the factory supplied mag. Six or seven years ago, I had two Tauruses that even the factory couldn't get to work.

Secondly, the Shield hasn't been out long enough to establish any kind of track record. Obviously, the Kahrs have. Personally, I just not in the market for a pistol that's larger and heavier than what I already have, and although it may be a fine gun, hasn't yet proven itself.

BTW, sorry about the Honda. :)

[jocko]

I am not a gunsmith, I soldguns for a livein for 40+ years, I shoot alot, I try to study up on things. I am not sure if I said anything really negative about the SHIELD even. I like Smiths, b ecuase the SHILED is a tad bigger in all aspects, does that really mean it is more reliable or possably that is as smalla Smith could make their gun and it be reliable. In as much as kahr owns 7 patents on their model, maybe just maybe some of those important things casnnot be incorpporated into other maker modelswithut patent infrnngement. Just sayin.

I just don't think ur gonna get alot on as KAHR forum to go along with some of the hype put out by some on the SHIELD. I guess then I am a kahr fanboi in that sense of the word, My 2 big kahrs are absolutely positively reliavble, my P380 is almost there. If I want a gun with a safety, I can now buy a PM9 that is again even lighter and smaller than the SHIELD. The SHIELD will sell mainly because it is a Smith. It does seem to me anyhow that the earlier one NANO hype has settled down alot to. gotta get these guns in the shooters hands more than 50 or 100 to get any real feel of how it is gonna do.

KISS (keepit simple stup[id) is good for this ol time, 3 lever on one side is for me 2 to many, not that it is not a badf thing either, just for this ol time I will stay with what I have..

[HighSpeedBail]

I can't even understand why the comparison comes up, really. The Shield is hugely bigger than the PM9, and when it comes to pocket carry, every inch and ounce makes a gargantuan difference.

Here's a great, visibly unbiased review of both guns side by side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuFidpwtxI



I don't believe the person who made this video knows his Kahr very well. He claims to have owned it for two years but maybe he borrowed it from a friend but just before the 5 min mark he mentioned the Kahr does not have a loaded chamber indicator.


Can someone tell me what this is?

http://www.typo.org/~web/guns/images/kahr-pm9-lci.jpg



He lost all credibility after that comment and I couldn't watch anymore. I posted a comment on his video. The guy is a *******.


Ken

[shipwreck]

One can have a favorite - and, I undertand that this is the Kahr site - so, enough said..

However, damn if some aren't just making this gun out to be the devil. To me, while the PM9 is a little smaller. Look at stats all ya want> When the two pistols are next to each other - there isn't a whole lotta difference.

In smart carry or in a pocket holster - they work the same for me. I happen to like the Shield better. It's a softer shooter, and I like that tiny extra bit of grip it gives. I feel more confident with the Shield, in place of the Beretta 92 I carried IWB until very recently.

Don't like the Shield and prefer your Kahr PM9 - nothing wrong with that. I can respect that. But, out of all the dozens of Shield threads on all the various gun forums.. Some guys just gotta put their slant on it here that just puts down the other gun... http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/KO.gif


http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/kahrshield1.jpg

[JimC]

I've been doing quite a lot of reading about that S&W Shield lately. I reading about a lot of satisfied owners.
I have to admit it sounds like a good pistol and not much larger than my PM9 to make any difference.
I haven't yet read about any magazine failures of any kind or recoil spring problems.
It doesn't seem to be ammo sensitive either.
The MSRP of my PM9 is $958.00, the Shield is only $449.00.
I think I may seek one out at a LGS and see how it feels in my hand. ;)

OK edit, the Shield doesn't have nite sights so the MSRP of the PM9 black w/o is $837.00, it's still a big difference.

S&W Shield (http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/MP_Shield/index.html#)

[jocko]

such is life.this is a kahr forum so u should expect some of this. I have been on other gu specific forums and they ain't any different. They will defend ther turff. U like ur shield no one is against you on that part. I think from my stand point that ur also trying ur damdest to convince others that this is the only way to go, to the point IMO of that it is a reward comng to you somehow if u can swing some ur way. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN

[shipwreck]

such is life.this is a kahr forum so u should expect some of this. I have been on other gu specific forums and they ain't any different. They will defend ther turff. U like ur shield no one is against you on that part. I think from my stand point that ur also trying ur damdest to convince others that this is the only way to go, to the point IMO of that it is a reward comng to you somehow if u can swing some ur way. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN

Actually, all I have said is that I like the gun more than the PM9. At no point did I talk bad about the Kahr. My point was that theres a lot of badmouthing from people who haven't even shot a Shield. And, all the speculation that the gun will go no where, and such.. Just bad attitude, was my point.

I've also said that some will like Kahrs more than the Shield. Nothing wrong with that.

[jocko]

ur right, I never said negatives about the shiled either, but like I said, when on a kahr fourm or a ruger forum, expect loyalty from them more than anything else.stated my only negative (f one can call it that) is that 3 levers on the left side is 2 to many. Doesn't' mean it is a bad gun, just for means I don't want it. I don't compare price points either, if one can't afford a kahr be it a PM or cm9 then look elsewhere. U will like the Smith. I am sure it is a good gun. Hell people bad mouth kahrs on other forums alot. U might think it is deserving, I just don't...I am sure alot of the kahr bad mouthing is from peopl,e who have not shot the gun either. It is the nature of the beast. I would think though u would be posting (and maybe u are) on the M & P forum where u will get the kind of feedback that your looking for, positivbes for SHIELD and negatives for the KAHR. Those bopys defend their turff pretty good to. Just sayin.

[shipwreck]

Well, I have actually owned a Kahr for a little over 2 years now. It was the smallest, dependable 9mm I had found. And, its well made. But after getting the Shield, I decided to sell my Kahr. I'm meeting the buyer tomorrow. Both are good guns

[itsthelaw]

Well, I have actually owned a Kahr for a little over 2 years now. It was the smallest, dependable 9mm I had found. And, its well made. But after getting the Shield, I decided to sell my Kahr. I'm meeting the buyer tomorrow. Both are good guns


So sell the PM9 for a reasonable price and move onto the new gun! If that is your thing, then it is perfect for you. If you move over to the M&P forum, they will make you feel even better about your move. After 2 years, the PM9 should still be worth $500, so you can get some cash for it. If you didn't pay too much for it, you should have had a good learning experince that will cost you about $100. Not bad in my world!:third:

[Kartar]

I bought an M&P shield and have fired about 250 trouble free rounds thru it. My accuracy is much better with it than the longer pull of the Kahr's, which is probably because the Shields trigger is closer to my Glock's. However, Kahrs are more size efficient and they are both outstanding handguns.

[wagon]

Actually, all I have said is that I like the gun more than the PM9. At no point did I talk bad about the Kahr. My point was that theres a lot of badmouthing from people who haven't even shot a Shield. And, all the speculation that the gun will go no where, and such.. Just bad attitude, was my point.

I've also said that some will like Kahrs more than the Shield. Nothing wrong with that.

Since 2009 join date and about 60 posts later, apparently you still have not noticed the 'charecteristics' of this site?????? You must be a slow learner :D

Thank for the pix posted, I am surprise to read those posts sugesting the Shield is 'MUCH larger' than Kahr..... Well..... Pants on fire! From your pix, they are quite similar in size.

Anyway, may be I could have waited a few weeks when I bought the CM9, but I think I would still bring home the CM due to weight and without (safety) features.

Congrat for finding a tool that fits you, enjoy the Shield, S&W is a good company, if not better than................ :D

[JimC]

I'm still doing my research on the S&W Shield and came across this just this morning on yes, the S&W Forum.

Shield Round Count (http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/245641-what-your-shield-round-count.html)

Long story made short, 40 posts, 9,285 rds., NO malfunctions, NO split mags, NO recoil assembly failures, NO reported mag springs in backwards...

I really like my PM9 due to its size and ease of carry but it has not been without its problems in only 1,596 rds.

I need to seek one out locally this week. And no, I won't be selling my PM9 if I buy the Shield. ;)

[jocko]

humm, I wonder if my PM9 with 32K and no split mags or recoil failures would kinda offset that shield report??Just sayin.

I have no doubt the shield is going to be an ok gun, Smith made it they don't make junk, they make mistakes but when they do , they correct them. The size and weight IMO is not enough to run me away if I wanted one, but those 3 levers on the left side and that glock type trigger just does not excite me in any way shape or forum. Is that a negative of the shield? Only if u feel like I do and for sure the survery of safetys on guns on this forum anyways would not suck in alot of buyers.

Mag splits seems to be going away to, not reading of them like we did 3 months ago, sure some are still out there but it is going away. Mag springs in backwards, ??What have we read here, maybe 3 owners with that scenario, out of what, maybe 300K + kahrs and proababy 400K+ magazines . Thats not a problem, that is just a happening. I don;'t read other gun forums so does one really think that no other gun maker ever had mag springs in backwards??? I was at a small gun show yesterday and there wasno shields there and tons of other smiths, mostly J frames.

today I am meeting a friend who is going to trade me his PM9 (about 6 years old) with not many rounds through it for my 380 Ruger lcp EVEN UP. He just wants somethig smaller for pocket and I sure don't need another PM9 but for that deal I could not pass it up.l I willdo nothing to this gun in terms of any mods. I doubt if I will even port it, as after making sure it is OK it will be just an addition to my kahr family. and oh yes that fokking butt ugle chariot 7 round magazine is included. I might just get a standard floor plate for it and use it with my K9

[JimC]

No, I don't think your personal experience with one PM9 off sets the reports in any way at all. You have been very fortunate with your pistol.

The link I posted shows that new gun owners fired 9,285 rds thru their new pistols without a single malfunction of any kind. The list will grow I'm sure. I don't expect to ever read a thread about a Kahr model pistol functioning this well.

And...the magazines eject out of the Shield without bending, pinching of any sort!

This from The American Rifleman online on the Shield.

While at Smith & Wesson, I was able to get some time—a lot of time actually—behind the trigger and I have to say I enjoyed every minute of it. I sent approximately 300 rounds downrange without a single malfunction. Expand that to include the nine other writers firing a similar number of rounds and the result is 10 M&P Shields firing 3,000 shots without a single gun-induced stoppage (there were approximately five failures during the two days of shooting, all stemming from the same problem with the ammunition). Needless to say I was impressed, and looking at a range floor completely covered in brass, it is safe to assume my colleagues were as well. The Shield has an excellent natural point, a characteristic demonstrated in some one-hand drills we conducted, and it proved surprisingly accurate even out to 25 yards.

I haved also searched the differen t forums in an attempt to locate threads that were made stickies on how to "prep" the Shield before going to the range...not one. No suggestion to "rack" the slide 500 times prior to firing either. :rolleyes:

This from the S&W Forum when I asked about break in for the Shield:

I did not read the entire manual, but I'm assuming there is no mention of a break in period. If there were, I think S&W would have found it important enough to mention that in big letters somewhere in the booklet in the first few pages.
I shot mine right out of the box and everything felt smooth; no "rough edges"...800 rds later, still feels the same.

Like I stated, I like my PM9 and I will keep it for its intended purpose but, I will seek out a Shield this week for a look see.

My curiosity has been peaked.

[Bill K]

As good as the Shield might be... The Shield would not replace my PM9 for pocket carry. It would not replace my Glock 26 for belt carry. Even if it would I've decided that my carry will not have a thumb safety.

I can't believe I've now spent hours reading and researching the Shield, a fine gun it appears but one I'm not going to purchase for myself. I'm now satiated - over and out with respect to the Shield.

[jocko]

oh so that is a total round count of all the posters, not just one gun??/I mis read ur post. My K9 used has been just as reliable with over 5K rounds

I read that section u referred to and al lthe reports were great, that says alot about Smith and Wesson to. 5 failures is no big deal but ammo is usually in the mix of anything that malfunctions in a gun, so do we blame the ammo every time, or does the gun also have to take some responsibilioty?? just asking, and that 3000 round count was with 10 shields..

Kahr never recommends racking the slide 500 times, I did that in my prpe thread. I am not kahr so becuase I put this in print, is it then gospel. that is really strectching the line IMO. I think that prepping thread states "SUGGESTIONS" to

Many kahr owners, don't even kow of kahr talk so this prepping thread is maybe read by such a small percentagte that it is amute point "nation wide". Most kahr owners and most gun owner buy a gun take it home open the box and shoot it like they stole it.

One cold knock the kahr lube chart also, it is needed???NO is it nice to new owners who don't know jack sh!t about guns???It certainly is. IMO these "tips" postes by many here are for owners who miss the obvious, not for veteran gun owners who know how to trouble shoot their own guns and how to properl6 maintain them.

Did we not help an owner here who posted after he cleaned his perfect working kahr and then reclenaed it, that ther slide locked open all the time. Some here knew right off what the issue was, it waqs obvious to those who know where to look, to a new owner he might think the gun is defective and needs to go back/

Not sure gun forums are just orgaized to praise that aker of the guns either. Every gun form has helpful people who have walkied in our footsteps.
Break in period is IMO in the eyes of the beholder. I do think hars needs rounds down range to smooth out better, is this a negative??/not forme, as I am gonna shoot te ew gun anyway, so one call callit what ever he wants. Again I think most kahr owners who don't even know we exist just shoot the gun right ouf of the box and never even read the manual. Hell we have members here wo don't read the manual...

Now if u interpret anything I saidhere as a negative towards the shield, u are dead wrong, I am just clarifying some things. I havenever stated and for most of the members here either have not been overly negative towards the shield. They have stated their thoughs as u have towards the kahrs. that is fair play IMO. 3 levers on the left side stops me dead in my tracks, it is a negative for me but maybe not a negative for the workings of the gun. Some report how thin it is. maybe for Smith it is,, the kahrs are thinner. yet.

I have always felt that owner don't give kahr enough credit for the smallass guns they make either. It seems almost no other gun maker and I am referring to the big name makers, have been able to make a smaller better working gun. Dont sh!t urself, if they could they would have. Not withstandig Rohrbaugh who makes a very smallass 9 at over a grand. the price point of the Shield is good, it will sell, butI think the cm9 and cm40- price points are in the sae ball park. I seen a cm9 yesterda I think it was $365 at the local gun show. Now that for an all stainless steel striker fired gun of qualit6y is very acceptable.

Smith will sell a ton of them because they are smith. Ruger proved that with the lcp, a direct copy of the kel tek but name wise Ruger over Kel tek trumps every day of the week to. I think Ruger has sole over 500K of those littlel ass 380's. They are no ore pleasanbt toshoot t6han the kel teks were but they willgo bang when needed.

[340pd]

I think a lot of all this comes down to trigger preference. Most people have a Glock, XD, or M&P in their collections that get some range time. The Shield has a super trigger which will appeal to those folks that are familiar that setup. I shoot all my revolvers double action only. My PM9, with it's long slow trigger, shoots like a high end revolver with a top quality trigger job. For me it makes the transition from my 340PD to the PM9 a minor one. So now my carry choice is driven down to which of these two I can control my shots better with. In my case the PM9 wins and therefore it is on my belt 90% of the time. Somewhere down the line for $400 I will buy a Shield and if I really don't like it off it will go to a new owner. As a part time RSO and instructor I heard a lot of hype on the Kimber Solo. They came into the range and after a few weeks they could be had by previous owners for a lot less than retail. Waiting makes sense. Something I have a lot of difficulty with when it comes to guns.

[JFootin]

Jocko and I are both lefties. He didn't mention it, but we lefties have another major objection in that the safety is not ambidextrous. It bothers me that most guns don't have ambi slide releases and mag releases. But the left side safety, if engaged when carrying, presents an awkward situation to us lefties in a s.h.t.f. situation.

When I purchase a larger pistol for at home use, I intend to get one that has full ambi controls. In fact, I would go for one with left side ejection (yeah, rotsaruck!). Just saying. :rolleyes:

[mser]

For my caliber and type of carry preferences I feel fortunate to own, what are in my opinion, two of the finest sub-compact pistols on the market today; the PM9 and the Shield. If I were a (insert manufacturer here) snob, I'd be missing out on many fine firearms that other manufacturers have to offer.

Looking to the future I've been consulting the crystal ball, tarot cards and a palm reader. Every one of them is able to predict a PM45 will soon be joining my M&P 45C and Kimber Ultra CDP II. I guess you can't fight fate. No such thing as having too many quality firearms.

[itsthelaw]

No Kahr snob here...have owned more M&Ps than Kahrs of any type.

If the Shield people don't want to see the issues they won't. After a quick scan of the M&P site, I found chambering issues that required a barrrel replacement and tight mags. Maybe the spring isn't backwards, but there are issues with mags. Many are also talking about disappointment with regard to the trigger and how to replace parts. If you didn't find any compaints on the S&W Forum, you didn't look too hard.

If they would compare the price of CM rather than the PM, the trigger enhancements will push the cost well into the $500 range. I purchased 2 CM9s after April 12 for $426 OTD. The Shield is NOT cheaper than the CM9.

Many Shield people are saying that the difference in size isn't THAT much. We all know that adding .1-.5 of an inch in more than one dimension to a pocket carry will make a HUGE difference. When the BG is laughing prior to shooting you as you struggle with your snagged Shield, it will be THAT big of a difference.

The Shield is also 35%+ heavier than the CM9. If you don't think that the extra weight makes a difference, put one in your baggy cargo pants (if it fits) and take off running. What is the safest method to save your own life when not directly engaged in a gun fight? Fleeing! Now imagine that you have to pick up a 4 year old child to get them out of the way too. Will the extra weight cause you to adjust the child even when amped up? Maybe. Will you have to put your hand on the pocket to keep it from flopping around? Maybe. The Kahr PM45 is similar in size and lighter with 45 ACP. The G26 is less than an ounce heavier and gives you capacity of 10+. The G36 is an ounce heavier and gives you 45 ACP. The M&P9c is 2 ounces heavier with capacity of 12+. These are all proven guns.

Hats off to the Kahr designers who could build a gun the size of the CM/PM9 and still have not been outdone. If the Shield design team could have done it and made it reliable, they would have done it. The Shield is either an IWB gun with low capacity or a single-stack 9 that is the largest/heaviest in the field and barely fits in a pocket.

I will pick one up for the collection of M&Ps in August for <$325.

[pineappleshooter]

Nope. "First On Race Day"

(I have a turbocharged 99 Mustang DOHC):):)

Joe

Thought it was F***ed Over Re-built Dodge?!

[TeaQue]

I liked my CM9 but my Shield required no break in or "massaging" to get the mags to feed or drop freely. I also prefer the trigger on the M&P. The only "issue" I had was that the mags were a little hard to insert but that went away after the springs in the mags were broken in (I just left them loaded up for a few days.)

If I could afford it, I'd own both!

Heres my review and some comparison pics.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/247301-picked-up-m-p-shield-my-initial-review-lots-pics.html

[TeaQue]

If the Shield people don't want to see the issues they won't. After a quick scan of the M&P site, I found chambering issues that required a barrrel replacement and tight mags. Maybe the spring isn't backwards, but there are issues with mags. Many are also talking about disappointment with regard to the trigger and how to replace parts. If you didn't find any compaints on the S&W Forum, you didn't look too hard.

I'm not calling you out or anything but can you link us all to these threads you're talking about? Specifically the chambering issues that required barrel replacement? I can't find anything like that. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the mag issues you're reading about are from people that haven't broken the guns in yet. Even then, are you really gonna sit here and talk about mag issues on a Kahr website? I had to put both my CM9 mags in a vice to get them to drop free and sand down the mag followers just to get them to feed reliably....... :rolleyes:






If they would compare the price of CM rather than the PM, the trigger enhancements will push the cost well into the $500 range. I purchased 2 CM9s after April 12 for $426 OTD. The Shield is NOT cheaper than the CM9.
.

My Shield was $398 after shipping and FFL fees. Thats cheaper than the CM9 is typically had with 1 magazine.

Also, as an M&P owner that has an Apex trigger on his full-size. I can say that S&W has greatly improved the trigger--specifically the reset and grittiness. Stock for stock, my full-size's trigger was total crap compared to the Shield before I added Apex parts. The Shield is nice enough that I don't plan on changing anything and imo, its much easier to shoot than my CM9--which is why I already sold it. Why are you assuming the Apex kits are a must and that everyone is adding them? :confused: Even then, adding a hard sear is only $40. So for ~$440 you get a gun with an even nicer trigger and 2 mags.

[jocko]

cm9 at local gun show this weekend was $365. I thought that wa soutstaqnding..: Just sayin.

buy the shield, if that floats ur boat: Just sayin.

None of my mags drop in my PM9 and quite frankly I like it that way. To old to bend over and pick it up on the floor or dirt, I don't carry a spare and I certainly ain't gonna loose my life over it either. I wo';t bet but I am very sure I am as fast or almost as fast at taking my mag out of my PM9 and anyone else. Just sayin and IMO who in the fokk really cares. some ofu guys talk like that is a deal breaker even; wow bu the shileld, enjoy it, probalby a nice gun, if u wanbt 3 levers on the left side. Hell I am surprised that Smith didn't put a LRI on the top of the gun and a magazine disconnet inside while there were at it.

[jocko]

8 pages of threads for the shiled IMO has now gotten 7 to many as it seems now (myself included) it is I say, u say, I say back, u say back back and so on.

I think we kinda went through this with the NANO. I see nothing that drives me to a shiled, not that it won't go bang, no one is arguing that, nor should they be with kahrs either. If u get one that doesn't go bang, kahr and smith will make it right.

[TeaQue]

cm9 at local gun show this weekend was $365. I thought that wa soutstaqnding..: Just sayin.

buy the shield, if that floats ur boat: Just sayin.

None of my mags drop in my PM9 and quite frankly I like it that way. To old to bend over and pick it up on the floor or dirt, I don't carry a spare and I certainly ain't gonna loose my life over it either. I wo';t bet but I am very sure I am as fast or almost as fast at taking my mag out of my PM9 and anyone else. Just sayin and IMO who in the fokk really cares. some ofu guys talk like that is a deal breaker even; wow bu the shileld, enjoy it, probalby a nice gun, if u wanbt 3 levers on the left side. Hell I am surprised that Smith didn't put a LRI on the top of the gun and a magazine disconnet inside while there were at it.
365+ tax is a great price!

I only said something about the mags because it was brought up by others in this thread.

[gb6491]

....The Shield is nice enough that I don't plan on changing anything and imo, its much easier to shoot than my CM9--which is why I already sold it. Why are you assuming the Apex kits are a must and that everyone is adding them? :confused: Even then, adding a hard sear is only $40. So for ~$440 you get a gun with an even nicer trigger and 2 mags.
I think "trigger feel" is a subjective thing. I also think the Shield will be a fine handgun for many, but not for me. I really disliked the trigger (and grip) on mine. To me, the Shield didn't do anything better than my CW9 (which I feel has a much better trigger and grip), so after putting 350 rounds through it, I sold it off. Fortunately demand is high enough for them right now that I lost little money on the deal:)
Regards,
Greg

Edit: Let me add here that I picked up another Shield because of a generous discount from S&W. I decided to install a sear from Apex Tactical in this one and now I really like the trigger in this gun. Some sandpaper has made the grip more tolerable as well.

[melissa5]

I think a lot of all this comes down to trigger preference.

That was the deciding factor for me. I wanted a single stack Glock 9mm.

I don't have a single bad thing to say about the PM9 that I used to own and have recommend it to several people looking for small 9mm's. It's a great little gun!

[Russ]

I'm still doing my research on the S&W Shield and came across this just this morning on yes, the S&W Forum.

Shield Round Count (http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/245641-what-your-shield-round-count.html)

Long story made short, 40 posts, 9,285 rds., NO malfunctions, NO split mags, NO recoil assembly failures, NO reported mag springs in backwards...

I really like my PM9 due to its size and ease of carry but it has not been without its problems in only 1,596 rds.

I need to seek one out locally this week. And no, I won't be selling my PM9 if I buy the Shield. ;)

Jim

You are a man after my own heart. That is why I dumped my Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano. A CCW must be 100% out of the box. You or loved ones could die if your firearm decides to nose dive or FTE which both the above mentioned delivered. I could expect at least one nose dive per 50 with the Kahr and one FTE in 100 for the Nano.

My first range trip with my Shield I had become so conditioned to have failures I kept thinking I had one everytime the gun was empty and the slide was locked back. What a relief to see an empty magazine and for the first time in almost one year I drove home from the range happy because I had zero failures.

I could care less the Shield is bigger. I can pocket in 36x32 Dockers and I have complete confidence the gun will go bang. That confidence is worth the extra weight and size.

Russ

[JimC]

I believed I was thru with this thread but, to be "fair and balanced", I came across this just this morning while still doing my research on the Shield.

Shield Out of Battery Issue (http://www.concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34552)

Additional Info (http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/248585-anyone-notice-issue-their-shield.html)

It would appear that a few are going back to S&W for re-evaluation.

The outcome will be interesting. :popcorn:

I'm not trying to stir the pot, only being honest and objective. ;)

[jocko]

I am wondering if:

More rounds down range to let the gun settle in would take care of that. or
from the video it sure looks very easy to retract the slide backwards, possable a weak recoil assembly.

I triedthis on my PM9 just now and that sucker is very very strong at that position, certainly the video showed this gun moving that slide back with total ease. I don't thinkj he could have made it look that easy with a PM. I wonder what the recoil spring poundage is on the Shield?

damn near has to be one of the above two possables. I can see where it would be a major concern. More likely a scenario that Smith never thought about n their testing.

thansk Jim C.

[JimC]

My PM9 will not do this...I tried immediately after viewing the video.

[JFootin]

One guy in the Additional Info link had 4 M&Ps that all do it. It must be a characteristic of the M&P extractor design that is common in more than one model. Surely, S&W have seen this issue on the older models and have, so far, done nothing about a redesign. But if it were my carry gun, I would be asking them to take it back to the mothership and fix it.

[itsthelaw]

My PM9 will not do this...I tried immediately after viewing the video.

JimC is a good/honest man.:) I carry my 9c in a Remora and it happens a lot because of the drag of the Remora holster. When I draw from the Remora, it always goes back to battery. My 45c doesn't do it. On the 45c, you can push it back to the defined point, but it goes back to battery.

[Bill K]

Jim

You are a man after my own heart. That is why I dumped my Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano. A CCW must be 100% out of the box. You or loved ones could die if your firearm decides to nose dive or FTE which both the above mentioned delivered. I could expect at least one nose dive per 50 with the Kahr and one FTE in 100 for the Nano.

My first range trip with my Shield I had become so conditioned to have failures I kept thinking I had one everytime the gun was empty and the slide was locked back. What a relief to see an empty magazine and for the first time in almost one year I drove home from the range happy because I had zero failures.

I could care less the Shield is bigger. I can pocket in 36x32 Dockers and I have complete confidence the gun will go bang. That confidence is worth the extra weight and size.

Russ

Russ,

The reliability & confidence issues you raise is why there are some civilian CC folks that will only carry revolvers. It is also perhaps a good argument for carrying two guns. Now you got me thinking again... :)

[Bill K]

Russ,

The reliability & confidence issues you raise is why there are some civilian CC folks that will only carry revolvers. It is also perhaps a good argument for carrying two guns. Now you got me thinking again... :)

Oh, crap! I said I was done with this thread. Now I really, really mean it!

[Popeye]

When I was at the range today I asked the owner if he had a shield. All he had was a blue plasic mock up of one. To me it looks much bigger than a PM9 and possibly a little bigger than a Walther PPS 9 which I love.I don't know why but it felt uncomfortably thin. I'll hold judgement off till I get to at least hold the real thing. It is bigger than I thought it was though.

[jocko]

JimC is a good/honest man.:) I carry my 9c in a Remora and it happens a lot because of the drag of the Remora holster. When I draw from the Remora, it always goes back to battery. My 45c doesn't do it. On the 45c, you can push it back to the defined point, but it goes back to battery.

I would think that is the way the gun is desinged to do also. I would just think in my little mind that the recoil springs o the Shield are weak by design so everyone can hand rack um with ease. I bet they never figured what is occurng now with um though. I would think if I am half right that a simple replacenet of a tad heavier recoil spring and the issue goes away. If people can learn to hand rack a kahr, Smith should have no issues increasing tghe recoil spring strength then. No gun that I havbe ever owned is as hard to hand rack as a kahr. It is what it is. NOt fault IMO just somethig that an ownber has to adapt to. took me awhile wity my P380 but today it is a no-brainer. I think I ckan find something in every gu made to ***** about, but that should not be the point either. Doesnt make the issue ur having go away eiter, so u either master it or peddle it:third: Just sayin

[itsthelaw]

Engineering stackups can be a booger to deal with in anything, including handguns. Increase spring here, failure there, etc.

[WilliamG]

jocko, are you perpetually drunk? Just wonderin'. Your typing sometimes goes off the deep end! (I ask that question with a whole lotta love and respect for your knowledge/number of rounds you've put through your PM9! :D :D ).

Anyway, this Shield issue may or may not be a real issue. I'd be curious at the range if someone can put that gun into that not-quite-in-battery state and see if it fires when the trigger is pulled.

FYI, I've only ever had one "misfire" with my PM9. I was practicing with my Crimson Trace Grips, and help my PM9 down low, pretty near my chest. I got slammed in the chest with the slide, and it didn't allow the gun to go into battery correctly, so it just went "click," the next round. :D

BTW, a PM9 slide hurts when it hits you in the stomach! Ouch!

I agree with jocko, though. Those M&P recoil springs are so, so weak. One of the easiest guns I've ever racked (when I owned my M&P 9 Pro Series). Kahrs, on the other hand. My wife physically can't rack my PM9. I bet with a couple of # on the Shield's recoil spring strength this wouldn't happen, period.

[TeaQue]

When I was at the range today I asked the owner if he had a shield. All he had was a blue plasic mock up of one. To me it looks much bigger than a PM9 and possibly a little bigger than a Walther PPS 9 which I love.I don't know why but it felt uncomfortably thin. I'll hold judgement off till I get to at least hold the real thing. It is bigger than I thought it was though.
Its a little bigger than the PM9 and a little shorter than the PPS. Here are some pics I took next to my CM9 and my Dad's PPS.

I personally think it feels better in the hand than the PPS.

FS9, Kahr CM9, and my Dad's G36, Colt 1911, and Walther PPS.
http://i.imgur.com/PVKGv.jpg

Walther PPS, M&P9 Shield
http://i.imgur.com/CdMux.jpg

Glock 36, M&P9 Shield
http://i.imgur.com/1kuPn.jpg

M&P9 (full-size), M&P9 Shield, Kahr CM9
http://i.imgur.com/dW2Ky.jpg

Kahr CM9, M&P9 Shield
http://i.imgur.com/t27Cw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zCQvS.jpg


Kahr CM9, M&P9 Shield, M&P9 (full-size)
http://i.imgur.com/Ycp5M.jpg

With the extended mags the size is similar however the M&P holds 8rds while the CM9 holds 7.
http://i.imgur.com/k8gKZ.jpg

[QuercusMax]

So (yet another) new gun has come out, and lots of people need to get one right away so they have the latest thing.

I say ho-hum - the Shield might be very nice, and (gasp) it might even be better than one's favorite Kahr or Glock in some way, but is it absolutely necessary to get one immediately??? For one thing, nothing about the arrival of the Shield has changed any existing Kahr product as far as I know. If you liked your Kahr before, you'll still like it now; If you hated your Kahr before, the Shield won't change that either.

I know that some people always DO need the latest thing immediately or life as they know it will end, but if the Shield actually *is* a good product, S&W will be selling it for years to come and you can get one later. Or it might not be so good, and you will have dodged the proverbial bullet. Or ... something even better might come along, and you can get that instead.

I'm glad to see the Solo, the Nano, and the Shield come out, because variety is great, even if confusing. (I haven't bought any of them so far.)

I wouldn't mind seeing the Shield deflate Glock's tires a little bit though. ;)

[340pd]

As long as we are on the "size matters topic", here is a compassion of my Kimber Ultra CDP II .45 on top of my PM9 with grip extension. The beaver tail being the primary length difference. The Kimber is thicker. Now, total weight is another topic.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/gnystrom_photos/KahrvsKimber.jpg

[mudfish]

In that YouTube review, the guy keeps saying things like

The Kahr and the Shield are the the exact same width... pretty much.

The Kahr is slightly lighter at 14oz vs the Shield at 19oz, but you really can't feel the difference in your hand. (as he holds them side by side)

The barrels are about the same length but the Kahr has a shorter overall length. But really they're very close.

And at the end after saying this whole time how they're basically the same size, even he admits that the Kahr is definately a better ccw gun because of it's smaller size and lighter weight. All those little differences add up in the end, don't they? :)

If you want a larger heavier gun, I'm sure Shield is a fine gun. I'm not sure why it's being compared to a Kahr P9...

[muggsy]

Let's settle this once and for all. All of you know me and knowing me you know that I only buy the best. I bought the CM9. Nuff said. :)

[jocko]

jocko, are you perpetually drunk? Just wonderin'. Your typing sometimes goes off the deep end! (I ask that question with a whole lotta love and respect for your knowledge/number of rounds you've put through your PM9! :D :D ).

Anyway, this Shield issue may or may not be a real issue. I'd be curious at the range if someone can put that gun into that not-quite-in-battery state and see if it fires when the trigger is pulled.

FYI, I've only ever had one "misfire" with my PM9. I was practicing with my Crimson Trace Grips, and help my PM9 down low, pretty near my chest. I got slammed in the chest with the slide, and it didn't allow the gun to go into battery correctly, so it just went "click," the next round. :D

BTW, a PM9 slide hurts when it hits you in the stomach! Ouch!

I agree with jocko, though. Those M&P recoil springs are so, so weak. One of the easiest guns I've ever racked (when I owned my M&P 9 Pro Series). Kahrs, on the other hand. My wife physically can't rack my PM9. I bet with a couple of # on the Shield's recoil spring strength this wouldn't happen, period.

I normally only get compliments like that about once a day. ur da man. to ask ur questionof the wil lit fire out of battery thing??

I would say absolutey not. I have seen photos of the underside of the slide and it looks just like a kahr in damn near every detail. It has a striker block in the same place as the kahrs does, so this would tell me that if it is the slightest out of battery the cocking cann just cannot engage the striker block. Just sayin

PS: at this time the above was written 100% sober:popcorn:

[O'Dell]

PS: at this time the above was written 100% sober:popcorn:

Awww shoot! You took all the character out of your post. :rolleyes:

[jocko]

not sober most of the time: Just saying , so ol jocko will be back.

[Tinman507]

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/tinman507/jekyll-and-hyde.jpg

[jocko]

to much spare time on some people's hands!! Just sayin.

[TheTman]

I'm happy to see another small 9 come out. There is NO gun that is perfect for everyone so It's nice to have another contender. Which one is best? The one you have on you when you need it. As far as out of the box reliability goes, I'm not carrying any semi that doesn't have at least a couple hundred trouble free rounds down range, preferably 500. Even on revolvers, I want to have several cylinders thru it before I strap it on. And really, do people take Glocks out of the box and wear them without ANY break in? I have to believe they run at least a few mags to get the feel of the weapon before carrying it. If not I'd say they weren't too bright. IMO