PM45 going back to Kahr (photos)

[gj47]

I just took my new PM45 to the range for quals and initial break in. Ammo used was Speer Lawman 230gr TMJ and Speer 230gr Gold Dot. Several things occured and I inclued some photos.
Zero rounds fired showing the dent in the upper portion of the guide spring tunnel.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0343.jpg
Same after 120 rounds.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0359.jpg
The majority of empties struck my helmet above my right eye in the forehead area. I have nicks in my helmet and a black mark on my face to prove it. After 100 rounds of ball I thought switching to the gold dots might have an effect. I still got hit and two same malfunctions occured.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0352.jpg
The malfunctions occured on the last round fired and cannot be cleared quickly. Notice that the casing was pulled into the mag feedlips and wedged into mag and ejection port area. The mag cannot be removed until the casing is pried out. The feed lips of this mag are now bulged about 6 thousandths. Below will be a couple of more pics.

[gj47]

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0350.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0351.jpg
Also notice the casing has gouges on the sides from impact against the mag. It appears that the firing pin was dragged across the primer creating a smear. I did not notice this fast enough to check the other cases I fired earlier.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0357.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0355.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0353.jpg

I called Kahr from the range and they are sending me a call tag out. I will update when I get this back to the range. I guess having a off duty pistol will have to wait for a while. Other than those issues the pistol felt great and shot well. No live ammo jammed.

[Bawanna]

I'd send those cases and maybe even the photos with the gun back to Kahr. I'm confident that they will fix you up quickly. I see a new slide in your future although that little ding looks just cosmetic but still not acceptable in my book. Do keep us posted as I've been seeing a PM45 in my future as well. Might be distant future as my penny bank is pretty light at the moment.
PS- For sure mention your Law Enforcement and this is a backup gun, usually moves you right to the top of the fix it list. They seem to like cops.
Best of luck to you and your PM45.
Be safe.:cool:

[Vinikahr]

Best of luck and thanks for
sharing.

[wyntrout]

gj47, Notice the lack of the gap at the front inside of the slide. The gap wasn't machined as some others. Check this thread post and notice my PM9 pix showing the "gap" as it should be. (on page 4). Notch is a better word.
http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistols/1144-pm45-issue-4.html
That's one thing, but you seem to have other issues as well. Good luck. I hope you can get it fixed and soon.
Wynn:)

[jocko]

there is a cut out that is supposed to be machined out in that area up front by the slide. My bet that is also what is causing your FTF and FTE issues to. Kahr will remacnine that area back out like it was supposed to be. Not the first one that we have seen like this either Hard to understand how than can be slipping through quality control ...

[gj47]

I have no doubt Kahr will take care of me in a reasonable time. I will be sending the case back with the gun as well as a picture of the malfunction. I can assure you that when I get it back I will be putting the pistol through its paces. Shooting wise the gun never jammed on any live ammo and was very pleasant to shoot as far as recoil and muzzle flip go. I don't care for Kahrs long reset triggers but the smoothness of the double action is just awsome. Once this gun gets squared away it will be with me more than any other gun.

[Esmanolo]

My slide has the same crack and I am having malfunctions.
I sent my PM45 to Kahr on Monday.
It is a shame that QC is not paying attention with the PM45s.
I have never had a problem with my HK.

[jocko]

My slide has the same crack and I am having malfunctions.
I sent my PM45 to Kahr on Monday.
It is a shame that QC is not paying attention with the PM45s.
I have never had a problem with my HK.

using another gun is the right comparison. that is like saying I have never had an issue with my Glock but we do know for a fact that glocks has had some mamnor issues in some of their models. Anytime it happens to you it is not good, but I could reverse that very easily and say I have never had an issue with my kahrs but have with glocks.

One has to know wha thte issues are to even begin to use a compairison. HK are great guns, but not sure they are issue free. This missed machining operation is simply piss poor quality control, not a design flaw. Karh will get this right for both the customer and also from inside the plant to. They hate this worse than the owner does for any time a gun has to go back for service, it is not good PR for the company. Just ask toyota that..

[gj47]

Can't compare a Kahr to a larger Glock or HK pistol. If you want to compare the Kahr to something I would look at designs that have similar weight, slide length, and slide movement. Kahr is working on the brink of the envelope on this pistol. Frankly just the fact that Kahr is succesful with the design is a hell of an accomplishment. If your like me, you bought the gun because it is smaller and lighter than just about anything out there. When we do that we open up ourselves to dealing with issues like this. Keep us posted on your progress and I'll do the same.

[In-Yo-Grill]

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0350.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0351.jpg
Also notice the casing has gouges on the sides from impact against the mag. It appears that the firing pin was dragged across the primer creating a smear. I did not notice this fast enough to check the other cases I fired earlier.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0357.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0355.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0353.jpg

I called Kahr from the range and they are sending me a call tag out. I will update when I get this back to the range. I guess having a off duty pistol will have to wait for a while. Other than those issues the pistol felt great and shot well. No live ammo jammed.

Almost the same issue I was dealing with. It took two trips but it seems that Kahr made it right. I took my P45 to the range yesterday and didn't get a single FTE.

[mr surveyor]

if I'm not mistaken, those appear to be completely normal primer indents for Kahr pistols... it's mentioned either in the manual itself, or in the FAQ's on the Kahr website.

[In-Yo-Grill]

if I'm not mistaken, those appear to be completely normal primer indents for Kahr pistols... it's mentioned either in the manual itself, or in the FAQ's on the Kahr website.

X2 on the primer indents. I was concerned when I saw that at first but has since been told that it's normal with striker fire type pistols.

[deadhead1971]

The tear drop pin strike on the primer is normal. Mine looks like that. At least in the PM9 owner's manual it says so. Look in your owner's manual.

[jocko]

The tear drop pin strike on the primer is normal. Mine looks like that. At least in the PM9 owner's manual it says so. Look in your owner's manual.

glock 19 shows the same mark.

[gj47]

Thanks guys I'll check it out. I know 1911s showing this is a problem as it reflects the gun coming out of battery with the striker proturding. This isn't like a primer strike from a glock. Those primer strikes look a little different and don't have the raised primer smear, if you will. I've got many thounsands of rounds through my glocks so I am used to those strikes.

[500KV]

Thanks guys I'll check it out. I know 1911s showing this is a problem as it reflects the gun coming out of battery with the striker proturding. This isn't like a primer strike from a glock. Those primer strikes look a little different and don't have the raised primer smear, if you will. I've got many thounsands of rounds through my glocks so I am used to those strikes.
Looks normal for a Kahr and your absolutely correct, looks nothing like a Glock.

[woodman]

I just took my new PM45 to the range for quals and initial break in. Ammo used was Speer Lawman 230gr TMJ and Speer 230gr Gold Dot. Several things occured and I inclued some photos.
Zero rounds fired showing the dent in the upper portion of the guide spring tunnel.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0343.jpg
Same after 120 rounds.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0359.jpg
The majority of empties struck my helmet above my right eye in the forehead area. I have nicks in my helmet and a black mark on my face to prove it. After 100 rounds of ball I thought switching to the gold dots might have an effect. I still got hit and two same malfunctions occured.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa283/047gtpd/DSCF0352.jpg
The malfunctions occured on the last round fired and cannot be cleared quickly. Notice that the casing was pulled into the mag feedlips and wedged into mag and ejection port area. The mag cannot be removed until the casing is pried out. The feed lips of this mag are now bulged about 6 thousandths. Below will be a couple of more pics.

Are you using a shock buffer on the recoil spring guide rod? If you are it can shorten the slide travel just enough to cause that type of jam. I had the exact same problem with my Colt Combat Commander as you are having and it was caused by the shock buffer, removed the shock buffer and problem solved.

[varoadking]

Sent my PM45 back to Kahr for it's second "tune-up" on Monday and had it back on Wednesday. She's a gem now...

Best of luck to you with yours...

[gj47]

No shock buffer. I am a 1911 guy too and don't believe in they are needed in any properly tuned pistol for the same reasons you stated. The jam picured above is a serious one as it is not just slide movement but the extractor pulling the case back through the feed lips of the mag.

My call tag never arrived yesterday so I'll be calling on Moday to try and set something else up. Glad to hear Varoadking got a quick turnaround.

[jocko]

No shock buffer. I am a 1911 guy too and don't believe in they are needed in any properly tuned pistol for the same reasons you stated. The jam picured above is a serious one as it is not just slide movement but the extractor pulling the case back through the feed lips off the mag.

My call tag never arrived yesterday so I'll be calling on Moday to try and set something else up. Glad to hear Varoadking got a quick turnaround.

shock buffers can put a gun out of time. heavier recoil springs will do what a shock buffer was designed to do without effecting the timing of the gun..:cheer2:

[gb6491]

Almost the same issue I was dealing with. It took two trips but it seems that Kahr made it right. I took my P45 to the range yesterday and didn't get a single FTE.
Hi In-Yo-Grill,
Would you mind sharing what Kahr did to your pistol to fix the problems you were having? My CW45 has stated having jams similar to the ones posted in this thread and those that you posted in an earlier thread.
Regards,
Greg

[In-Yo-Grill]

This is what the Technical Service Work Sheet stated;

First time - Replaced barrel, ejector, polished parts as needed. Lubed and test fired good.

Second time - Replaced slide, recoil spring, polished ejector. Lubed and test fired good.

With a new barrel, ejector and slide it's practically a new gun.

[gb6491]

This is what the Technical Service Work Sheet stated;

First time - Replaced barrel, ejector, polished parts as needed. Lubed and test fired good.

Second time - Replaced slide, recoil spring, polished ejector. Lubed and test fired good.

With a new barrel, ejector and slide it's practically a new gun.
Thanks for the quick reply:) I hope it continues to work well for you .
My gun was fine until about the 500 round mark. I ordered a new extractor and spring, but it didn't fix the problem (mine mainly jammed as per the OP of this thread's gun: ie, as pictured and on the last round). I've made a magazine modification that seems to work in limited testing (125 flawless rounds compared to two jams in 25 with an unmodified mag). I really like the accuracy of my current slide/barrel/night sights combination and will probably just run the modified magazine another couple hundred rounds. If it proves reliable, I'll just stick with that; if not, I'll send it in.
Regards,
Greg

[In-Yo-Grill]

Thanks for the quick reply:) I hope it continues to work well for you .
My gun was fine until about the 500 round mark. I ordered a new extractor and spring, but it didn't fix the problem (mine mainly jammed as per the OP of this thread's gun: ie, as pictured and on the last round). I've made a magazine modification that seems to work in limited testing (125 flawless rounds compared to two jams in 25 with an unmodified mag). I really like the accuracy of my current slide/barrel/night sights combination and will probably just run the modified magazine another couple hundred rounds. If it proves reliable, I'll just stick with that; if not, I'll send it in.
Regards,
Greg

Hopefully it works out. I know the feeling of frustration and would encourage you to stick with it until all the bugs are gone.

[gj47]

Got my gun back from Kahr and figured I would give an update. The call tag Kahr sent didn't arrive so I sent out the gun from my local fed ex store the monday before last and it arrived back on my door step this past monday. The note inside stated polished barrel, mags, extactor, replaced ejector, recoil spring. Lubed test fired good. It was not noted but the slide had the "notch" milled into it.
Went to the range today with 200rd of speer 230gr fmj and 50rds of speer 230 gold dots. Boy am I pissed! Not only does 20% plus of the cases strike me in the head still but now the gun had over a dozen failure to feed malfunctions which appear to be caused by the extractor not being tensioned or radiused properly. And of course the last round fired of the day ended with the same malfunction this all started with. The case was pulled through the feed lips of my newly purchased 6rd mag that I am sure is now out of tolerance. I could not get in touch with the service department today so I had to leave a message. No call back so far. How in the hell can I use this pistol to defend myself or others?

[Vinikahr]

Got my gun back from Kahr and figured I would give an update. The call tag Kahr sent didn't arrive so I sent out the gun from my local fed ex store the monday before last and it arrived back on my door step this past monday. The note inside stated polished barrel, mags, extactor, replaced ejector, recoil spring. Lubed test fired good. It was not noted but the slide had the "notch" milled into it.
Went to the range today with 200rd of speer 230gr fmj and 50rds of speer 230 gold dots. Boy am I pissed! Not only does 20% plus of the cases strike me in the head still but now the gun had over a dozen failure to feed malfunctions which appear to be caused by the extractor not being tensioned or radiused properly. And of course the last round fired of the day ended with the same malfunction this all started with. The case was pulled through the feed lips of my newly purchased 6rd mag that I am sure is now out of tolerance. I could not get in touch with the service department today so I had to leave a message. No call back so far. How in the hell can I use this pistol to defend myself or others?

Man, sorry to hear about this, if the firearm is under warranty they should pick up the tab for shipping. Mine CW45 went out 2 times and it was on their dime. Basically is things are done right the first time they won't have to do it twice. If I had to send that gun in my dime, that would have cost about me $100.:eek:

[gb6491]

My CW45 has stated having jams similar to the ones posted in this thread and those that you posted in an earlier thread.
I've made a magazine modification that seems to work in limited testing (125 flawless rounds compared to two jams in 25 with an unmodified mag). I really like the accuracy of my current slide/barrel/night sights combination and will probably just run the modified magazine another couple hundred rounds. If it proves reliable, I'll just stick with that;I was able to run a further 80+ rounds through my CW45 today without incident using my modified magazines. That's about 175 total using the first one I modified; all without failure.

FWIW:
What I found was that the magazine lip on the ejector side was tipping the last round in the magazine slightly upward and slightly off the extractor before it got to the ejector in the ejection cycle. When this happens the case often does not clear the ejection port and gets driven back down into the magazine (as pictured earlier in this post) or barley ejects (more like falls or with a flat trajectory). With rounds still in the magazine, spent casing are (usually) held high enough by the following rounds that this would rarely happen.

To counter this, I decided to take some material off the magazine lip. I was pretty aggressive on the first magazine; I cycled a spent casing by hand and removed material until I felt the casing would stay in place long enough to hit the ejector. I took less off the next magazine and it seems to function fine. I imagine, with some patience and testing at different stages in the process, that even less material would need to be removed. The modified magazines hold the rounds securely and I've had no feed issues with them (I've dropped them a couple of times in the process with no lost rounds).
Stock magazine and modified magazine (right):
http://i48.tinypic.com/2iuc9k8.jpg
Modified magazines: the second one done is in the background; the modification on it closely follows the contour of the stock feed lip on the other side of the magazine:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2wqgxdz.jpg

I'm not saying this will work for all; it's just something to consider if your gun is malfunctioning as described in this thread. I guess, in this day and age, a disclaimer is warranted (sorry all): As with any modification, you proceed at your own risk; this is a "how I did it" post, not a "how it's done" article:yo::typing:
Regards,
Greg

[woodman]

Short barrel .45's usually have more feeding problems than larger .45's. Even with the 1911 a government model will feed and eject much more reialably than an officers model.

[gj47]

Kahr called me today, the pistol should be here by tomorrow and I will give a range report after the weekend.

[Vinikahr]

Kahr called me today, the pistol should be here by tomorrow and I will give a range report after the weekend.


Kool! Keep us posted.

[gj47]

306 rounds fired at the range today using Speer Lawman 230 TMJ, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester USA 185gr FMJ, and Atlanta Arms 230gr FMJ. Things are better than before but I had 3 feeding malfunctions with speer ball ammo and 61 cases struck my head upon ejection. All brands and bullet types were eratic upon ejection. Better, but by no means acceptable. I will see what Kahr says on monday. Ian at Kahr told me the cases had struck him as well but the gunsmith told me he had no problem. Before anyone asks I use a thumbs forward high hold on the pistol with proper support hand preasure. The same grip I use for all my pistol training and competition. Should be about 700-800 rounds total through this pistol thus far between Kahr and I. I will post again when I find out more.

[gj47]

Got the gun back today. The letter said they serviced the extractor and tuned the mags. I will get to the range next week and I will post an update then.

[gj47]

100rds fired and although no feeding malfunctions I was still being struck in the head by about 20% of the empties. My shooting buddy had the same result. Still not acceptable and certainly not something I could reccomend for defensive purposes. I guess these are just hit or miss.